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Author Topic: V Threads  (Read 168 times)

RPD

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V Threads
« on: February 15, 2002, 08:19:23 AM »

The V thread article was very good, but I would add one point.  It would be inadvisable to reuse a V Thread that does NOT have rap rings or a biner.  If the initial party pulled their ropes through the sling material, the heat generated by the nylon-on-nylon friction could be high enough to seriously weaken the resident sling.  
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dogboy

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Re: V Threads
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2002, 08:27:37 AM »

Good point...I see slings on and around ice climbs that have been half melted through all the time.  Why do ice climbers have a thing against using rap rings?  You almost never see slings without rings on rock climbs...
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Re: V Threads
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2002, 02:37:26 PM »

I know that you are correct and your points all fit with what we all do on rock as well. that said, I can tell you that I have seen and personally re-used v-threads that I know have been around for a while and they have (obviously) always been ok. I absolutely look them over and if I don't like their looks, I either replace the webbing or make a new one. something about the cold and often icy ropes seems to protect the slings more. of course if you don't closely examine a thread that you are going to re-use you are really asking for it. also, if I can't pull the sling in the hole so I can see ALL of it, I don't use it!

as for rap rings... in 4 years of climbing in Canada where there are tons of V-threads everywhere, I have never once seen rap rings on a thread. one reason may be because of the cost, another the impact of all this metal at the bottom of climbs at the end of the season. years ago the Canadians used disposable metal tubing for protection on ice climbs. no one took it out after the climb was done and there used to be a lot of metal at the bottom of all of the popular climbs in the spring. they would have clean-up parties at places like the Weeping Wall to gather them all up. <grin>

Al

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dogboy

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Re: V Threads
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2002, 08:13:29 AM »

All good points...but there are places in Frankenstein, etc, where people are rapping off trees, and still just using a sling with no ring...case in point, the tree on Standard just up and to the right of the cave.  There are probably 5 or 6 slings around the tree, and not one of them has a ring on it.  It's not a big deal, but it seems that if you are going to leave a piece of nylon behind, you might as well leave a piece of aluminum as well so that as many people as possible can get some use out of it...
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Re: V Threads
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2002, 10:14:16 AM »

as far as the tree rap anchors, I agree. those should have rings & the only thing I can say is that many people figure that they will get stolen so they don't bother. and actually it happens!

for v-threads the other thought is that if you put a rap ring on a v-thread & someone comes along there is a very good chance they will ASSUME that it is like a fixed anchor & is good. the ring gives a false sense of security to the system.

Al
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RPD

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Re: V Threads
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2002, 03:03:17 PM »

For me, rock or ice, I probably wont use a resident sling without a rap ring or a biner on it.  Just aint worth it.  
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jamie

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Re: V Threads and sling strength
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2002, 04:44:13 PM »

Why not use a rap ring on a V-thread?  
Mostly because it is not needed.  The original post from Richard (yo - big up) claimed that pulling ropes through sling material would weaken the sling and render it unsafe.   Both the empirical evidence of thousands of climbers, as well as pull-tests by professional gear testers, have shown that this is not the case.    
Visually inspect the sling.  Slings that look fine are fine.  Damage from heat will not be hidden, it will be an obvious melt mark.  
This does not often happen to v-thread slings.  That v-threads are used in winter is significant.  Cold air, water, and materials (sling/rope) reduce friction and dissipate heat.  When was the last time that you rapped a rope in winter and found your belay device too hot to handle?  When it does get hot in summer, notice that that is still not enough heat to melt you rope.
Slings can melt from friction.  Repeated pulling can do this, it just doen not happen much on slings used for short periods in winter.  It is more of a problem with permanent fixed rap starions used year-round.  I fully support rings and quick-links on fixed rap stations like trees.  I just think it is littering to add them the v-threads.  
Most important is that the rope must not be weighted when it is pulled.  It easy to melt sling material if, for instance, you take a lead fall on a rope that is threaded into a sling.  But that is a vastly different force and load model than pulling a rap rope.
Slings are pretty darn strong.  Several independant organizations (not manufacturers) have pull-tested sunbleached ratty-ended scraps that have been fixed for several seasons at altitude, and found that they broke at or above spec.  Heartening isn't it.  The thing I worry more about is a poorly tied knot.
Glad you liked the article though.
Jamie
ps, I will have to search through a mess of old web links to get you the references (and I will try to do this soon), but I have read several articles from Black Diamond's gear testers on this particular subject (check out Fish's website if you want to dig a bit).
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rpdoucette

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Re: V Threads
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2002, 08:06:56 PM »

Yo Big Mama.  It does make sense that the shorter life span of the "resident" sling could make a rap ring unnecessary.  I would be very interested in seeing the results of actual tests on slings.  That is the kinda stuff which I actually believe.  I try not base my personal safety decisions on anecdotal evidence.  I look forward to learning more.  

Question:  Is there any advantage to threading into the hole a loop of a tied/sewn sling as opposed to the untied end of a sling (other than ease of hookage inside the V)?
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SherpaJim

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Re: V Threads
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2002, 11:33:28 AM »

A variation to leaving webbing behind on a v-thread rap is to thread the rope through the v-thread in the ice.  I seldom use webbing.  Since I use a set of 8.5 mm ropes for ice climbing, I can easily snag a rope and pull it through the screw hole.  I'm carefull not to saw it back and forth and essentially it's the same as an ice bollard (rope on ice). If you are using two ropes on the rap, snugging the knot up to the v-thread hole helps secure the rope even better to ensure it doesn't slip and cut the ice.  As always, just remember which side has the knot.  A number of guides use this method.

I want to stress/caution that it really depends on ice conditions and the climber's ability to judge the ice.

- Jim
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jamie

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Re: V Threads
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2002, 03:11:29 PM »

I think that is an excellent idea, and I will likely use it.
Great suggestion, Jamie
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a hospers

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Re: V Threads
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2002, 03:29:13 PM »

one thought on this...

when you pull the rope using webbing you may destroy the webbing which you can see. when you pull the rope threaded thru a hole you likely destroy the integrity of the hole, which you likely cannot see. if this were the norm I would likely never reuse a v thread. I remember some talk of this a while back and though that it was discouraged. if I were at home I would likely call & ask the guys at IMCS & EMS what they think. maybe someone could do this if they get a chance.

Al
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