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Author Topic: on sighting a route with a leader  (Read 549 times)

lucky luke

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on sighting a route with a leader
« on: May 20, 2014, 09:31:40 PM »

Most of you began or will begin in a gym, go outside with a friend or a partner who already know the route and follow the leader to the top in an enjoyable day.

For example, intimidation at cathedral is a nice climb. In the first pitch of the route, some leader leave a branch and use it as a stick to place the good pro before the exposed move . So, the leader climb the route without uncertainty. He know every move and  he have protection as solid as bolt.

The only time I on sight the move, I didn't know about the branch, I didn't know about the move, I just know that the route is going in that direction. Is it a big difference if I sit down at the bottom, look at the feature of the rock (crack, overhang, diedral, etc) to decide where I am going or if I use a guide book??? For me, no! but for some pure climber...it is important. When I had to protect the hard move, I didn't have a stick. I had to thread two chuck together and try to fix it as high as I can. It was not perfect and I was not sure to make the move. The only think I had to be safe was my partner!!!

As a beginner, what do you think a leader, who bring a second in an on sight, is looking for if he want a "safe partner" , a good second? What is the differences between a top rope and following an on sight leader?

N.B. a leader with a previous knowledge of the route is not an on sight climber. Any hesitation of the leader to find the route and expose situation will increase the stress of the second in onsight...and prepare him to be a good trad leader after. A leader who climbed the route before will just pull you to the top as in a top rope, knowing the move and knowing where to protect with, some time, the exact number of the cam. 



 
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DLottmann

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M_Sprague

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 01:10:18 AM »

This made me think. what would you call it when a blind person tries to climb a route with no foreknowledge of it?
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The other tomcat

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 07:31:37 AM »

I led Intimidation onsight one April with my friend Hans, then the crux pitch a second time doing Bicycle Route with Paul Cousar. I never could get the two nuts threaded together to work, so just placed gear down and to the side and went for it.

A friend tried the route and then asked me about the wired nuts, he had backed off. I told him how I did it, and he tried that, fell and broke both legs. I felt terrible about it, and still do.

So anymore I use the stick method too. I got my " onsight", and figure I'm not obligated to be stupid every time.

Am I?
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Tom Stryker

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 08:43:44 AM »

Most of you began or will begin in a gym, go outside with a friend or a partner who already know the route and follow the leader to the top in an enjoyable day.

For example, intimidation at cathedral is a nice climb. In the first pitch of the route, some leader leave a branch and use it as a stick to place the good pro before the exposed move . So, the leader climb the route without uncertainty. He know every move and  he have protection as solid as bolt.

The only time I on sight the move, I didn't know about the branch, I didn't know about the move, I just know that the route is going in that direction. Is it a big difference if I sit down at the bottom, look at the feature of the rock (crack, overhang, diedral, etc) to decide where I am going or if I use a guide book??? For me, no! but for some pure climber...it is important. When I had to protect the hard move, I didn't have a stick. I had to thread two chuck together and try to fix it as high as I can. It was not perfect and I was not sure to make the move. The only think I had to be safe was my partner!!!

As a beginner, what do you think a leader, who bring a second in an on sight, is looking for if he want a "safe partner" , a good second? What is the differences between a top rope and following an on sight leader?

N.B. a leader with a previous knowledge of the route is not an on sight climber. Any hesitation of the leader to find the route and expose situation will increase the stress of the second in onsight...and prepare him to be a good trad leader after. A leader who climbed the route before will just pull you to the top as in a top rope, knowing the move and knowing where to protect with, some time, the exact number of the cam.

Great, now I can't onsight the route, thanks for ruining it with all your beta LL.
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Pete Jackson

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 09:34:08 AM »

This made me think. what would you call it when a blind person tries to climb a route with no foreknowledge of it?

That's onsig......oh wait, I see what you did there.

:)
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strandman

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 09:41:33 AM »

A true onsite ?  VERY rare, you really have NO knowledge of the climb ? Nothing ?  I find that kinda hard to believe..you look up and from 40' can't tell is its a finger crack ? blank section ?    come on

The start of Intimidation is a rare situation... I bet SA didn't have  stick on the FA, hell maybe not even wires.
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The other tomcat

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 10:40:32 AM »

SA just had a hemp rope and some wooden wedges I think? The SA I have seen is considerably taller than me.....like everyone else....I think that helps...eventually I discovered the wires go in the upper slot, not the lower one..
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Tom Stryker

strandman

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 11:02:10 AM »

HaHa.. you got the gear but couldn't do the move !..First time I wondered why there was s tick on the ledge ? with chalk and tape on it  ??? ???
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lucky luke

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 09:03:36 PM »

Read this: http://eveningsends.com/climbing/climbing-gyms-arent-problem-assholes/

You miss the question: As a beginner, what do you think a leader, who bring a second in an on sight, is looking for if he want a "safe partner" , a good second?

In the text, they talk about a first x-rate route that the author climb with a mentor. An x-route, off with, of 5.9 for a 5.11 climber is nothing. so, the mentor test the tolerance to stress of his second. If you investigate more deeply the question, you will have to think at what is the resistance of stress, or what is the answer of a person to stress. You will read many description of different behavior in relation to stress intensity.

High ego and low stress resistance is probably the most important reason of accident and over bolting.

I always looking for some specialist of stress and anxiety to describe the situation of a climber when he realize that he his in danger and just have is knowledge to get out of the problem and begin to be pump versus some one who climb with a bolt just aside and a safe fall? I imagine that, as with soldier who saw horrible think during the war, post traumatic reaction can happen to climber in some really shitty situation.   
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lucky luke

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 09:21:58 PM »

I led Intimidation onsight one April with my friend Hans, then the crux pitch a second time doing Bicycle Route with Paul Cousar. I never could get the two nuts threaded together to work, so just placed gear down and to the side and went for it.

A friend tried the route and then asked me about the wired nuts, he had backed off. I told him how I did it, and he tried that, fell and broke both legs. I felt terrible about it, and still do.

It is horrible to gave beta to some one and to realize that the person didn't have the knowledge to make it. I wrote a guide book and in it I wrote go staight up to the belay. I didn't realize that I most say step right and go straight up as for me it was obvious that a 5.6 was not a 5.8 -9. One of my friend felt there, as he climbed the 5.8 slab. At the end, he went to get out of it and jump to the last move. He felt and injure is leg...still have problem with it.


As a leader, I will prefer a beginner who will asked me question on how I decide to go to the right or to the left. Telling me where the route is going and asking me why he made mistake or why I don't follow is suggestion at the first time (could be because I want to show off or because of safety). Looking at all my good move an congratulate me when it is good at a good time.

We are far from a guy who look impatient and told you that it it too easy for him... or don't follow your advice. I had a second and I told him to do a traverse on comeau finish at the top of the prow. He told me that he felt more secure to climb the crack. But my cam was in comeau finsih and he will had a 40 footer if he climbed the crack. I had to use all my authority to make him the slab move to the flake where the cam was. That is a weak second even if he can climb 5.11. 

tom sent you a pm 
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Pete Jackson

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 03:21:06 PM »

Telling me where the route is going and asking me why he made mistake or why I don't follow is suggestion at the first time (could be because I want to show off or because of safety). Looking at all my good move an congratulate me when it is good at a good time.

But you don't have an ego like a sport climber, or anything like that, right? Sheesh.  ??? ::)
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strandman

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 06:24:08 PM »

LL- I find it a bit fascinating that you post up about beginners issues so often. yet sprout your on site ability  ???
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sneoh

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 07:17:41 PM »

LL- I find it a bit fascinating that you post up about beginners issues so often. yet sprout your on site ability  ???
Spot on, John.
I can't speak for others but I could care shit about onsight until my 3rd or 4th season out.  There was so much to learn the first few years (like not screwing up bad enough to kill myself or the leader) that onsighting seems so, so far down the list of "achievements".
I bet if you ask true beginners, most will say getting every move free (hanging in between if need be), learning something good and safe, and not screwing up are satisfactions upon themselves.  What's the big deal with onsight many (beginners) would ask ...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 09:40:40 AM by sneoh »
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lucky luke

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2014, 03:59:32 AM »

  What's the big deal with onsight many would ask ...

Am I able to do it?

Look, I finally did it!!!

Do I know enough my safety to make the move?

I make it so many time I am able to do it, who care about safety!

 
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