Author Topic: on sighting a route with a leader  (Read 864 times)

Offline steve weitzler

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2014, 08:45:55 AM »
As I have aged I have forgotten many things especially climbing routes. This is good because every route I do is an on-sight even when I have done the route before. Being old does have some advantages.

Offline strandman

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2014, 11:39:37 AM »
Onsighting and safety should not be beginner issues... the safety responsibility lies with the experienced climber.  Ans i ntimidation is a poor example..if you can climb Intimidation, You are clearly not a beginner

Offline sneoh

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2014, 02:24:27 PM »
..if you can climb Intimidation, You are clearly not a beginner
Me think so too.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline wiggins

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2014, 05:31:28 PM »
i'm confused here lucky your onsight put you on the ledge where u fused to nuts together to make the move up, maybe made some kind of tomahawk action? seriously u just did that on your on and didn't read that in a book or hear it somewhere? it's the only route i have ever climbed where tried this and it didn't work for me, i did the move, was intimidated moved on and found it intimidating later too, it's not a route i would ever recommend for a new leader or an inexperienced second. i'm dying to figure the point of this post? a climber new to an area that can't afford a guide book, a friend , balls or common sense and the belayer thats an unfortunate soul they found in gym and has never been on rock or out from under a rock....

Offline lucky luke

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2014, 11:07:58 PM »
i'm confused here lucky your onsight put you on the ledge where u fused to nuts together to make the move up, maybe made some kind of tomahawk action? seriously u just did that on your on and didn't read that in a book or hear it somewhere? it's the only route i have ever climbed where tried this and it didn't work for me, i did the move, was intimidated moved on and found it intimidating later too, it's not a route i would ever recommend for a new leader or an inexperienced second. i'm dying to figure the point of this post? a climber new to an area that can't afford a guide book, a friend , balls or common sense and the belayer thats an unfortunate soul they found in gym and has never been on rock or out from under a rock....

The question was:
As a beginner, what do you think a leader, who bring a second in an on sight, is looking for if he want a "safe partner" , a good second?

you attack me too much and don't answer the question. The important think is: what is a safe partner, a good second

Online Jeff

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2014, 09:03:25 AM »
Luke: to your question "what is a safe partner, a good second?" My answer is NOT a beginner! I take many beginners out climbing ( disclaimer, I work as a guide); I do NOT push my limits in those situations and RARELY climb something on sight with them; my concern in those situations is their SAFETY, their ENJOYMENT and their LEARNING! If I accomplish those things , in that order, we've all had a good day out!!!

Offline strandman

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2014, 09:17:56 AM »
Exactly Jeff.......

Offline sneoh

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2014, 09:25:55 AM »
It would not be fair to set the expectation that a beginner has to "have your back" (as you being the more experienced climber).  It should be the othe around.

Hey, John, aren't you supposed to be replacing bolts at Peni?  Or is that next weekend?

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2014, 05:15:26 PM »
It does seem like a lot of LL's story's revolve around taking beginner's on climbs over their heads then coming here to give himself back-door compliments...

Out of all the beginner's you have introduced to the sport LL how many are;

1) Still climbing?

2) Still climbing with you?

I know where I'd put my money...


Offline lucky luke

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2014, 09:45:55 AM »
Luke: to your question "what is a safe partner, a good second?" My answer is NOT a beginner!

Where did you begin??? climbing 5.11 on lead.

beginner most begin some where.

Actually beginner just act to not look like beginner...and some don't have the knowledge.

Offline strandman

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2014, 09:53:22 AM »
It would not be fair to set the expectation that a beginner has to "have your back" (as you being the more experienced climber).  It should be the othe around.

Hey, John, aren't you supposed to be replacing bolts at Peni?  Or is that next weekend?

Ya teaching beginners how  to bolt ;)i drive the hour home 'cause camping in the rain  really sucks. Heading back now..its amazing how many young folks want to learn about groung up f/a's    ..reallly amazing to me

Online Jeff

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2014, 10:17:24 AM »
Luke: to your question "what is a safe partner, a good second?" My answer is NOT a beginner!

Where did you begin??? climbing 5.11 on lead.

beginner most begin some where.

Actually beginner just act to not look like beginner...and some don't have the knowledge.

Luke, I can often puzzle out where you are coming from but NOT this time--I began climbing in the Vercors near Grenoble, certainly NOT on 5.11 in the lead!!! I WAS a BEGINNER on a group outing with the Club Alpin Franšais. As I said, I now (and have for the past 40 years) often take beginners out and after I teach them to belay, I often have to rely on their newly learned belay skills on multi-pitch climbs like Upper Refuse and Thin Air--to say I am CAREFUL not to screw up and fall off is an UNDERSTATEMENT-- that would ruin their day and mine! I am very aware that a "beginner must begin somewhere", but they don't have to use ME as the dummy on their first catch of a leader fall.
BTW I don't need another answer to this post-- As I said earlier, I don't consider a beginner a "safe belayer" for me to climb near my limit or on an onsight, which was your question in opening this discussion. Now, I've spit out the hook--you'll have to fish for another trout!

Offline lucky luke

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2014, 08:44:16 PM »
As I said, I now (and have for the past 40 years) often take beginners out and after I teach them to belay,

 but they don't have to use ME as the dummy on their first catch of a leader fall.

My question is: what is a safe partner, a good second.

After you teach how to belay, you can't describe what is a safe partner and a good second? I want to understand why your student, who learned how to belay with you, are not safe partner, good second.

Online Jeff

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2014, 10:39:18 PM »
Luke-- I've taught them well but they have at most an hours experience and have never caught a leader fall-- since it is their first day of climbing, they also certainly have NO idea how to help me if I should fall off and get hurt-- they could not rescue me-- therefore they are NOT a "Safe Partner" or "Good Second" yet; they are still in the beginner learning stage! They still need lots of practice before I trust them in a situation where I am near my limit-- I want to have a very experienced partner in those moments.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 10:41:39 PM by Jeff »

Offline lucky luke

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Re: on sighting a route with a leader
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2014, 08:35:50 AM »
Luke-- I've taught them well but they have at most an hours experience and have never caught a leader fall--

I know, but some people think that because it is simple, they can belay any one. The worst is that those beginner think that they can belay from the top with knowledge gain at the bottom.

I like the idea that a beginner most catch a fall of an other beginner falling on pro that you place because, as a "leader", the beginner have to understand that it is the life of a person, not the new video on there cell phone. Further more, as they fall few feet over there pro...and as it is a test for the first day of climbing...and as there motivation are high...they will do the move an become better second.