Author Topic: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt  (Read 1038 times)

Offline steve4464

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Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« on: July 14, 2014, 02:38:29 PM »
Soooooooo, I have a friend.... let's call her "friend" ;-) that claims she was instructed by an experienced climber ( meaning old and climbing a long time ) that she should turn her quickdraw biner that goes into the bold upside down for safety reasons and that she's crazy not to.

I've been going thru scenarios in my head ( which can be a scary thing in and unto itself ) of how this is better. I cannot. What I can say however is this - IT IS A REAL F-IN PAIN IN THE ASS to clean them on overhanging routes, and mild PITA on vertical.

Any comments? Thoughts?

Offline frik

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2014, 04:37:40 PM »
Back in the day we were always taught to turn the biner so the gate is down.... religiously.
Now i guess it's not done - but i still do it.
FREEEDOM!

Just a sign of how old her instructor is. At least he knew what a quickdraw was
 

Offline sneoh

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 07:10:29 PM »
I still occasionally flip the top biner (I guess that cements my status as an old fart).  I do it whenever I see there is a chance the gate might get poked open by a knob, an awkward anchor setup, the lower link of a chain, whatever when there is down force on the quickdraw.  I also flip the top biner if that helps the top biner lie flat on the rock.  Obviously this does not apply on a significantly overhung route.
On trad routes, I often flip the top biner when clipping pitons, especially the angles.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 08:35:40 PM »
I do it if i am scared or if it is a critical  piece that you might kick that biner with your foot and have it unclip from the pin or bolt. actually happened to me with an ice screw once.

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 09:37:02 PM »
out of my 13 draws I have 3 with little locking biners. I don't care how hard it is to clean, it makes me feel comfortable on routes that wander left & right!
Al Hospers
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DLottmann

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 08:34:56 AM »
I've never rotated the top biner' as the OP is talking about... it would be a rarity if there was a feature/nub thing I was worried about...

I think the more common "mistake" is people rigging quickdraws so that the bolt and rope biner's are not facing the same way. Most folks know the rope biner gate is best facing away from the line of travel to the next bolt... and Petzl has demonstrated how easy it is for the quickdraw to un-clip itself from the bolt when the gate faces towards the direction of travel...

so...

both gates should always face away from direction of travel...


Offline sneoh

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 05:30:05 PM »
both gates should always face away from direction of travel...
I am just into my second season of doing this.  Until about 3 or 4 years ago, the prevailing thought was the orientation of the top (unflipped) biner did not matter.  That has changed with updated results and info from the field.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 10:42:59 PM »
both gates should always face away from direction of travel...
I am just into my second season of doing this.  Until about 3 or 4 years ago, the prevailing thought was the orientation of the top (unflipped) biner did not matter.  That has changed with updated results and info from the field.

Petzl “tech pages” have been pointing out this hazard for at least 8 years, but I realize not everyone geeks out on Petzl catalogues like me :)

Offline steve4464

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2014, 09:20:12 AM »
So, again I have gone thru a lot of scenarios with this bolt biner being upside down vs upright ( gate swinging up vs down ). Yes, there are a few cases where it makes sense to invert it, but that is the case with anything - the exception not the rule.

I can't see the inherent benefit of it other than it's a habit that somewhere down the line someone thought "makes it safer". Personally,with the effort it takes to clean them, it is less safe, and if you're going to do it for sport you should be doing it on trad as well. If not, it's nothing more than a feel good., which is okay, I back up things regularly, but I see physical evidence that it provides any additional safety, only challenges to cleaning and  extra effort by the leader to invert it.


Offline snowleopard

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 11:25:33 AM »
So far a good thread with useful and coherent discussion.....I think you guys have accidentally discovered
how to keep the LL safety/philosophy/physics schtick out of threads....postunder "Sport"!!!

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 05:50:17 AM »
I do it on a bolt or pin that is a critical piece. there is no sport distinction it is a rigid bolt or pin distinction. there is a very real possibility of unclipping from a rigid clip in point if the biner is kicked or dragged  just the right way  by the rope. It is actuallly fairly easy to replicate.

Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 08:23:03 AM »
I think there was a case of a bolt-side biner unclipping by twisting against the bolt last year on Bonehead Roof in Rumney. It caused a fairly serious injury. If I am mis-remembering the root cause, please do correct me.

For the vast majority of my day, we don't flip the bolt-side biners around. But when I do come across one that is flipped, I recognize it as safer and try not to be to irritated. Also, much of the time when we clean a route, we clean on the lower-off after many laps. As for cleaning on the follow on an overhanging roof: I'd flip it around first, then go for the gate to clean it? I haven't found it to be more a PITA than it was to place the draw and turn the top clip in the first place. Am I missing something?

All that said, if you're going to use a sport anchor for top-roping (2 draws on the anchor bolts) and you don't have lockers, I'd recommend flipping the top biners around and keeping the gates clear of things like pieces of chain, quick-clips, etc.  But much better to take Al's advice and bring a couple draws that are set up with lockers.
We came to climb, not to whine.

Offline neiceclimber

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2014, 08:24:51 AM »
I've never had this happen to me on a bolt or a pin, but I've done it twice while ice climbing.  One time coming off a scrappy 3ish gully and starting up a 4 pilar I managed to kick near the draw and clip it to my crampon. Took some pretty ugly circus moves to unclip, that apparently looked pretty funny from below.

Offline ELM

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2014, 05:00:54 PM »
out of my 13 draws I have 3 with little locking biners. I don't care how hard it is to clean, it makes me feel comfortable on routes that wander left & right!
    That is an outstanding idea Al! I think I am going to make me a couple.
Ed Matt
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Offline Admin Al

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Re: Carabiner Vertical Orientation in Bolt
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2014, 05:32:37 PM »
    That is an outstanding idea Al! I think I am going to make me a couple.

;-)
Al Hospers
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