Author Topic: Fatality in VT  (Read 3911 times)

Offline The other tomcat

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2015, 05:51:41 pm »
Before I judged any of this I'd want to know what rappelling on a 7 meant, I don't see where it's a single fixed line or a doubled rap set up. Two 7's wouldn't be great for a beginner, but not tragic would they? Device?

I guess it's just me but I never rap with the rope around my leg, I already have a rope burn, thanks. I've done it many times on rappel, to stop and deal with something.



Honestly I only add a prussic or autoblock about 10% of the time. Rapping to an uncertain anchor on Cannon yes, when I can see both ends on the ground and it's 75' to the ground, probably not. Big clusterknot below, yep, wind blowing hard, yep.

How did belaying and rappelling get so complicated? People did better at it BITD !
Tom Stryker

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2015, 06:48:08 pm »
I guess I'm courting disaster because I've never once used an autoblock.  The only rap I've ever been even mildly sketched about was a free hanger.  I once witnessed a partner clip one of two strands and lean back...the loop popped out and he got really lucky.  It must have been a terrible way to go.  RIP
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 06:57:59 pm by Nemesis »

Offline kenreville

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2015, 08:32:46 pm »
How did belaying and rappelling get so complicated? People did better at it BITD !

^^^^
Agree 100%

Ya gotta pay attention. Climbing is as dangerous as you make it.
 

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2015, 10:39:24 pm »
I fought it tooth and nail when the auto block first came out. once i started useing it all the time on every rap i realized that i was simply being a stuborn set in my ways bone head when I refused to do it. It works.

Offline NEAlpineStart

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2015, 07:36:02 am »
I'd also like to know if it was single or double. Single strand 7mm would have very low friction in just about any recreational rappel device.

As for wrapping around the leg, I did this once or twice in my early years. Once I learned how to install a auto-block below the device I never did it again. Other than it taking 2-3 wraps around the leg to feel secure it is just uncomfortable and takes longer to start descending again after you fixed what ever it was you needed to stop for.

There are so many "good enough" ways to rap, and quite a few "not quite", but I'd say 80% of mine look like;

1) Extend device with shoulder length nylon sling girth hitched through tie-in
2) Autoblock (faster than prussic) with non-locker off belay loop
3) No knots in end of rope unless darkness, tired, or unfamiliar terrain (I'm over paranoid where the middle of the rope is and where the ends are each and every rap)

Super straight forward simple raps I'll sometimes forgo all that, but with practice it is so fast to set up there's few reasons I can see not to.

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2015, 08:38:21 am »
[...]
Honestly I only add a prussic or autoblock about 10% of the time. Rapping to an uncertain anchor on Cannon yes, when I can see both ends on the ground and it's 75' to the ground, probably not. Big clusterknot below, yep, wind blowing hard, yep.

How did belaying and rappelling get so complicated? People did better at it BITD !

belaying is more complicated because there is more people like that: "a quick wrap arround the thigh works when you are too stuborn or stupid to rig your rap with an auto bloc BELOW the rappel device.".

insulting people who don't used the good technique, that is always there, to show a kind of importance. By the way, I trust more strandman for his advice than the author.

with a seven milimeter rope, one can do it without device, a wrap around the shoulder hips and leg (don't remember the name). It is a technique particularly good in winter. To use it, we need practice and we need to work out them. if you did work out a technique, it means that you are not trying to climb hard. it is true that it is better to know well one technique and master it than to know two or three without praactice.

in sport, as the situqtion is plan to be the same in hall places (bolt anchor) one technique is good.

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2015, 11:40:04 am »
I put the stupid in there for those that simply refuse to use a technique or piece of equiptment that has a proven track record because it's new and that's not how we do it  cause it's not cool.

Offline The other tomcat

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2015, 12:05:37 pm »
With all due respect Tradman, cool has nothing to do with my decisions, and the " proven track record " is actually that autoblocks and Prussics have a moderate level of success at best. People appear to have a hard time letting go of the back-up when they lose control of their rappel. And it's not new either.

Thinking they are sure fire could be the dreaded heuristic trap...being stupid I'm not certain though.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 12:07:09 pm by The other tomcat »
Tom Stryker

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2015, 12:27:46 pm »
When the back up is below the device you don't need to let go of it. squeezeing it actually helps. it's saved my bacon. that is proof enough for me.  It's Not just the auto bloc. It's the whole  package. helmet and auto bloc.

Offline The other tomcat

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2015, 12:37:49 pm »
Can you ahead and explain that to me Trad? Your autoblock is off your leg loop or something else ? It's below your device, you lost control of your rappel and yet had the autoblock which is on the rope in your hand so squeezed it harder and it activated ? Or you went for the autoblock instead of braking the rope?

Or you squeezed the autoblock which was the same as squeezing the brake side to a halt?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 12:39:45 pm by The other tomcat »
Tom Stryker

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2015, 01:11:13 pm »
I have  had the auto block save my butt so many times I have completely lost count.  about 80% of my rock climbing is done on  new unclimbed or rarely climbed terrain so I am constantly haveing to gather up all the rope and get it in a safe spot while some stupid loose block does it's thing  and I am often wearing a 50lb pack  just to make it more fun.  I have a biner duck taped to my leg loop with a loop of 5 or 6mm ? cord liveing on it. I  give it 2 or 3 raps arround the rope  depending on what rope I am useing. it works every time. hands free. done it thousands of times. gone upside down with the big pack on. whatever, it works. if something happens and you instinctivly do the death grip that just makes it work better. I have been told the death grip can keep the prusic from locking up if it's above the device?  In the winter on big steep ice at night etc etc etc It works. as does the helmet. The worst thing I ever did was lean back into a rapell while ice climbing. Distracted by guy girl relationshit I was not in my rapell device.  I was in my auto block. I am still here annoying you guys...

Offline The other tomcat

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2015, 01:22:18 pm »
I guessed you would say you had missed threading one side, which is not what I'm envisioning when I think of losing control from an objective hazard like falling rock, but that's still a valid save, and I'm glad it worked for you.

Using any of these techniques to deal with something in a controlled fashion, just like wrapping one's leg, isn't being " saved " in my book, nor any different than what I said upthread, I'll do it when there's something to be done along the way. And I realize sometimes you do not know beforehand.
Tom Stryker

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2015, 01:31:18 pm »
For a few years I had the biner duct taped to my leg loop left over from ice season and the prusic loop lived on it. I used it situationally. it was easy to set up in a pinch so why bother untill you need it. At some point i realized that is  a flawed approach and it's so easy to set up why not do it first and let it be there just in case. now it's just like putting on my helmet. Don't even think about it, just do it.  And don't get me started on the folks who think they are smart enough to predict when they will and will not need a helmet..  especially the ones who take the helmet off to belay......

Offline The other tomcat

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2015, 01:39:17 pm »
Helmets...lol....I used to be 5-8" and wear a Joe Brown, I swear that thing pushed me down to 5-7". I climbed so much stuff, new routes on crap rock, Cannon, Pinnacle, everything without, and it was dumb for sure. The new helmets are so light I have driven half way home with it on. Definitely agree, put it on as soon as you are in range and keep it on.
Tom Stryker

Offline NEAlpineStart

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Re: Fatality in VT
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2015, 02:16:11 pm »
tradmanclimbz, point of curiosity, when setting up to rappel do you always install the autobloc first or device first? I'm now in the habit of doing the autobloc first every time, which allows me to pull up a foot or so of slack before installing device. It's a minor convenience (stepping lightly on the rope does the same thing), but definitely helps me when I have almost 400 feet of rope hanging down a steeper route and I'm pre-rigging a couple devices...