Author Topic: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)  (Read 1500 times)

Offline rbirk

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2016, 01:54:30 PM »
If it prevents one person from making the mistake of using the flat figure of eight bend I'm glad I wrote it.

+Many

Offline ralbert20

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2016, 02:23:18 PM »
Great article David. As soon as I posted the question, I went and tied the flat overhand bend, and immediately saw the issue(s) you present. Personally, I always use the overhand now, even though I was taught to use the retraced figure of 8. I am glad I never thought of short cutting the tracing, as it would have been something I could have easily seen myself doing when I was learning.

Thanks for educating me!

Offline Shepherds Pie

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2016, 12:24:53 AM »
R&I continues to confuse climbers by calling the knot in question a "variation" of the EDK (or more accurately the flat-overhand, or flat overhand bend if you want to be technical).

They did the same with this poorly researched article pack in March:

http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/euro-death-knot-mysteriously-fails

My comment then:

...EDK is not "a version of the flat-8". Your readers deserve more accurate reporting. You should clearly show the EDK (more accuratly called the flat over-hand), the eight-in-line (safe but hard to untie) and the flat 8 (deadly and easily capsizes). The mis-understanding between these three very different knots (not versions) has caused enough confusion and accidents for decades.

A reverse traced 8 bend is 100% safe and lays very "flat", so I can see why so many new climbers confuse that bend with tying an 8 via the same method one ties a flat-overhand, except it's one more wrap around both strands before pulling through the formed loop. This way of tying a "flat eight" as media likes to call it has been known to capsize and fail under body-weight for decades, yet the existence of the reverse traced 8 with looks almost identical, continues to deceive newish climbers and unfortunately keeps leading to loss of life.

You probably don't realize it, but in your fervor to post your perceived expertise and store bought credentials, that you misquoted the original article?

"and tied the ends together with a flat figure-8 knot, a variation of the Euro Death Knot (EDK)."

Your opinion loses all credibility if you can't even read correctly.  Tool.

Offline alwoodsmithy

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2016, 09:21:46 AM »
Shepherds - What is the difference, exactly, between a version of a knot and a variation of a knot? BOTH would imply that are related to the EDK. His point stands. Nice try though.

Offline DaveR

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2016, 10:30:29 AM »
You probably don't realize it, but in your fervor to post your perceived expertise and store bought credentials.........

Your opinion loses all credibility if you can't even read correctly.  Tool.


God help us, LL is back! :P

It is an article worth reading IMO, especially if you are a new climber. For the 40+ years I have climbed there has been much confusion about knots used for tying ropes together. Good job Dave.

https://northeastalpinestart.com/2016/09/27/one-of-these-knots-can-kill-you/
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 10:38:14 AM by DaveR »

Offline bikewrench

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2016, 06:41:39 PM »
haha a secret admirer! Must be tired of the sheep.

Great article Dave.

Offline agent_smith

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Interesting paper on offset knots (EDK)
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2017, 02:39:52 AM »
This might be of interest...
Link: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php

Its at #3 in the table.

...

Offline NEAlpineStart

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2017, 07:29:55 PM »
This might be of interest...
Link: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php

Its at #3 in the table.

...

Wow, that is by far the best research I've seen presented on this topic. Thank you for sharing.

Offline Jeff

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2017, 08:58:43 AM »
An excellent treatise-- I have only one slight disagreement : the author suggests early in his discussion that the term EDK to designate the Offset Overhand Knot originated after an accident in the Tetons in 1998. This knot was used by French guides in Chamonix in training at ENSA for their IFMGA certifications in the early 1980s, and British climbing friends of mine, who commonly tied their rappel ropes together end to end with either a double fisherman's bend or a retraced figure eight, referred to it by the term EDK. As the American delegate on the UIAA Safety Committee at the time, I had several discussions at meetings at ENSA with French guide instructors and learned of testing they had done to support the efficacy and safety of using the Offset Overhand Knot to join ropes for rappels, whether of equal diameters or not. I've used it consistently ever since for this purpose.
      I am impressed by the clarity of this paper and the quality of the photographs to support the written word. It deserves greater dissemination. I hope that its presentation here will contribute to that effect.

Offline agent_smith

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2017, 06:29:20 PM »
From Jeff:
Quote
This knot was used by French guides in Chamonix in training at ENSA for their IFMGA certifications in the early 1980s, and British climbing friends of mine, who commonly tied their rappel ropes together end to end with either a double fisherman's bend or a retraced figure eight, referred to it by the term EDK.

Thanks for this info.
In order for the 'analysis of offset knots' paper to be updated, we would need to 'authenticate' it by citing your name along with a specific date (as close as possible to the actual date).
Also, we may need to make a distinction between the use of the name 'EDK' in Europe as apposed to its entry into mainstream USA. As you say, the term 'EDK' may already have been the common vernacular in Europe in the 1980's but, at what point did this name enter into common/mainstream vernacular in the USA?
Our research pointed to the 1998 Karen Turk accident as the likely turning point for its mainstream entry into the USA...

We like to get the facts as close to 100% accurate as is humanly possible!

Please post back here in this forum with specific details - and permission to cite you in the paper!

Offline Jeff

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Re: EDK variation Knot slip - climber dies (WA)
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2017, 10:45:38 PM »
Hmmmm--"at what point did this name enter into common/mainstream vernacular in the USA?" I'm afraid I can't answer that, other than to say that certainly it was commonly referred to in that manner among many climbers in New England of my acquaintance  who had also climbed in Europe and/or Great Britain prior to 1985. That is not to say I believe that it "had entered into the common vernacular". It was usually used in a jocular fashion, and often directed at those of us who had adopted the Offset Overhand Knot as our knot of choice for joining rappel ropes. I CAN say for certain that the first time I heard it was in Chamonix in the summer of 1982, after descending from the Aiguille de la Blaitière with a British partner, alongside a rope team of French Aspirant Guides, with whom we were sharing rappel anchors. This sharing may seem unusual to some who have climbed in the alps; my fluency in French as a career teacher of the language certainly helped our interaction, as did the fact that I had spent the previous week at ENSA representing the AAC at the meetings of the UIAA Safety Commission. As for citing me, you have my permission, since I have here clearly stated the limited level of my authority on the origins of the name "EDK".  Jeff Lea.