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General => Beginners Area => Topic started by: lucky luke on November 25, 2013, 02:42:28 PM

Title: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 25, 2013, 02:42:28 PM
I don't say don't do sport, I say do trad before sport if you want to be a trad climber.

first reason: In trad falling can be dangerous specially if the first pro pull out. Knowing how to fall on your feet will minimize the kind of injury that you will have. Falling in your back and you can be paralyze for the rest of your life. So, climbing on your feet and knowing how to place your body to jump or sleep safely is very important. Of course, you will feel more confident if you climb 5.9 before you do your first 5.6 lead in trad and, fortunately, the risk of falling is very low on that kind of route. But it is when you have to decide to do a move where there is a danger that you will learn all the process of being safe. After that, you will understand the progression: using your hips to protect vital part of the body, looking for a move using three point of contact before two points, understanding the difference between intermediate and advance move, using your power when one hold is missing, using your body in equilibrium as a single point of contact. I most say that sport climber learn by imitation of other and will learn technique adapt to a bolt protection situation. In general, sport climber don't make the distinction of being in control of his safety and using a bad technique for the problem. They will need bolt

second reason: a little bit technical, When you climb, you need energy. It is like someone who run. If you jog, you will use aerobic energy and will be able to perform for hours. If you played soccer, you will run faster and stop and go. There is a chance that you will be out of breath. Finally, in a 100 meter race, you will use a very fast kind of energy.  Those energy are call aerobic, anaerobic lactique and creatine phosphatase. When you climb on sport, you will use the second and third one mostly. In a trad route of 8 pitches, you will use more aerobic energy and in some places creatine  to climb a short hard section and anaerobic to look where you are going for the next hold. any other way to explain it?
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: DaveR on November 25, 2013, 02:51:09 PM
Here we go again! Do you ever climb or just babble about worthless shit? :P
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: JBeta on November 25, 2013, 03:03:17 PM
Luke, I appreciate your desire to back up your claim with reasons, but I think your reasons are flawed.

Reason 1: Everything I've learned about falling, I've learned while sport climbing. I've seen more trad climbers fall awkwardly than I've seen sport climbers fall awkwardly. In trad climbing, the "leader never falls" mentality is still alive and well, and when these leaders end up falling, as they inevitably do, the fall is often tense, stressful, and more dangerous than it needs to be. Sport climbing has taught me to make peace with the fall. Bouldering has taught me to fall with skill.

Reason 2: I'm a runner, and I know all about aerobic vs anaerobic. I've used more aerobic muscles during a sport climb than I ever have during trad climbing.  Have you ever sport climbed? Sure, some sport climbs are anaerobic, but some sport climbs are aerobic testpieces. Places like Rifle, Maple, and the Red have no really hard moves (that's debatable, I know), but it's the endurance requirements that make the climbs hard.

Sport climbing has made me more comfortable on the rock, and it has helped my trad climbing. In fact, every higher-end trad climber has put in mileage on sport climbs.

Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: strandman on November 25, 2013, 03:14:22 PM
Complete bullshit.... you can try to explain this all you want, but it will never work

Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: JBeta on November 25, 2013, 03:16:15 PM
Complete bullshit.... you can try to explain this all you want, but it will never work

Agreed...but I can't help myself from responding.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: strandman on November 25, 2013, 03:45:03 PM
Just like a fucking train wreck.....

I'm going to ask my buddy Bob how he can possibly sport climb after learning how to climb wide up to 5.13   :-*

I'm betting it's 'cause he's good ?
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: Pete Jackson on November 25, 2013, 05:27:25 PM
Wait. Didn't we already have a 9 page thread on this exact same topic? Or was it trad vs. bouldering?

Title: Re: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: goodrockrich on November 25, 2013, 05:44:44 PM
Wait. Didn't we already have a 9 page thread on this exact same topic? Or was it trad vs. bouldering?
For a second there I thought it was the same thread!

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 25, 2013, 06:10:59 PM
+1 JBeta...

It’s been said before... many times...

You can enter climbing from just about any “specialization” and go on to do great things.

Saying “You should not Sport Climb before Trad Climb” is FUBAR.

And I’ve trad climbed since day 1, and to this day have trad or ice climbed 95% of my climbing days (a few thousand in all).

I know if I mixed in more sport climbing in my earlier years I would be a better climber today, and my long range plans include more sport climbing for that reason...
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: goodrockrich on November 25, 2013, 07:39:22 PM
I would like to point out that you should never eat right before you trad climb.  Always wait an hour or you could get a cramp! ::)

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 25, 2013, 08:08:12 PM
Yeah, Luke, your second reason is all bunk, man.  Sorry.  I can show you sport climbs that WILL work you aerobically.  Besides, plenty of sport only climbers also cross train in aerobic intensive sports. Do not be so narrow-minded and rule things out just because you do not do them.

Your 1st reason has some grains of truth. There is no denying of that.  But, as usual, you take a grain of truth and extrapolate the shit out of it leading you to the wrong general conclusion.

I started in trad (sport climbing had not really reached NE in earnest then) but plenty of folks seem to have done just fine starting in sport and expanding into trad and beyond.  Again, I just do not get this exclusivity thing that you harp on all the time.

DMan,any time you want to plan on a sport climbing day or two at Rumney and the same for me at South Buttress or Cathedral or Sundown in return, that would be fun. It is all good.  Mix it up, keep it interesting!


Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 25, 2013, 11:53:01 PM
Luke, I appreciate your desire to back up your claim with reasons, but I think your reasons are flawed.

[...] I've seen more trad climbers fall awkwardly than I've seen sport climbers fall awkwardly. In trad climbing, the "leader never falls" mentality is still alive and well, and when these leaders end up falling, as they inevitably do, the fall is often tense, stressful, and more dangerous than it needs to be. [...]

Reason 2: I'm a runner, and I know all about aerobic vs anaerobic.

Imperfection? discussion is a good way to find imperfection in trad and to be a better climber after.

Climber do trad climbing since 1950. Some mortality occur, but more in alpine zone than in cliff. If you read accident in north american mountaineering, you will see that injury in a fall is not as important as some other think. I didn't look if, recently, sport climber, climbing with gear, have more pro pulling out and zipper effect and.... But it is what I am seeing on the cliff. You said that the fall is more dangerous that it needs to be...and you have SA who felt about 100 feet without injury. It is impossible to climb without fall. In fact, you didn't see many fall of old trad climber because it happened in the wild (my partner fell 35 feet)...but you see safe fall on bolt all the time from sport, maybe your judgment is biase by the fact that you learned sport climbing and you didn't develop the reflex of a trad climber that I describe by the position of his feet, hips and hands. I think that it is a problem for the beginer who want to climb trad.

Just to know where we are, can you describe the anaerobic reaction?
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: JBeta on November 26, 2013, 07:13:31 AM

but you see safe fall on bolt all the time from sport, maybe your judgment is biase by the fact that you learned sport climbing and you didn't develop the reflex of a trad climber that I describe by the position of his feet, hips and hands.

I'm the biased one? Seriously?

Whatevs dude.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 26, 2013, 10:15:24 AM

but you see safe fall on bolt all the time from sport, maybe your judgment is biase by the fact that you learned sport climbing and you didn't develop the reflex of a trad climber that I describe by the position of his feet, hips and hands.
I'm the biased one? Seriously?

If you make a comparaison of 100 fall on trad take by trad climber like Sa Pappy jeff and some other and 100 fall of sport climber on bolt....maybe you will understand that the difference is not so high between the two group of climber.

If you take 100 sport climber who climb on bolt and 100 sport climber who climb with nuts and cams....maybe you will understand the reason why I want to make the distinction between sport and trad.

When sport climbing begin, they were treat as nothing by the trad climber because they was not able to climb in remote area. Pioneer of sport climber had a rude beginning before the community accept that good climber emerge from sport climbing. As climbing in remote area with or without bolt is more dangerous than climbing in sport area, the sport climbing gain in popularity. Today, there is more sport climber than trad climbing. Remote area, natural feature, still exist and trad climbing is still an ethic. But now sport climber have to stop to fight to gain his place as a real sport. There is athlete in sport who practice the higher level of technique. Stop the war against trad. We made a mistake by denigrating sport, but we have to keep the best of all ethic for the next generation.

You kill the sport in two way: first people don't like so much bolt and practically all sport climber who climb 5.11 in a gym have problem in 5.7 outside, if it is not an accident. At each accident, the popularity of the sport diminish. Second, many people don't like to struggle on a pinch of rock for hours to gain ten feet. They prefer to move slowly from one anchor to the other on easy ground, or more precisely, at there level of difficulty to be safe and enjoy the trip on the mountain more like a hike than like a fight against the wall. 
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: Pete Jackson on November 26, 2013, 11:20:21 AM
[SNIP] Edited out some stuff since this one is in the newbie forum.

I don't say don't do sport, I say do trad before sport if you want to be a trad climber.

I understand and accept your point of view on this, even though I disagree with you.

To wit: you have not taken in to account a key tenant of modern pedagogy. Everyone has a different learning style. What works for you may not work for me.

There is no universal prescription. You cannot control the learning of others. This is especially true of climbers, who are a rebellious sort.

This has all been "asked and answered". Can we consider the matter closed?

I have no doubt that you're a nice guy. I have no doubt that you are talented and competent. Everything I have heard about you as a human being (as opposed to your internet persona) supports that. So help me understand: why beat this dead horse?
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 26, 2013, 02:20:53 PM
This - "You kill the sport in two way: first people don't like so much bolt and practically all sport climber who climb 5.11 in a gym have problem in 5.7 outside, if it is not an accident. At each accident, the popularity of the sport diminish",  is the kind of rhetoric that takes away credibility from you and your arguments.

The popularity of climbing is on the decline?  Not so if you take all kinds of climbing into consideration!
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 26, 2013, 03:24:05 PM
... So help me understand: why beat this dead horse?

I have pondered this for a couple years now and I think it is similar to a preacher in a railroad camp during the Great Expansion. He is completely fanatic in his convictions and truly believes his long winded preaching might save some souls.

(I may have been watching to much Hell on Wheels lately).
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: DaveR on November 26, 2013, 06:27:32 PM
... So help me understand: why beat this dead horse?

I have pondered this for a couple years now and I think it is similar to a preacher in a railroad camp during the Great Expansion. He is completely fanatic in his convictions and truly believes his long winded preaching might save some souls.

(I may have been watching to much Hell on Wheels lately).

I wish he would go away because every thread now turns into the same bullshit and that is all it is! I have never met anyone so clueless. :P

Number 1 reason to sport climb or boulder and never trad climb.
No LL to deal with! :)
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 26, 2013, 09:33:55 PM
[SNIP] Edited out some stuff since this one is in the newbie forum.

I understand and accept your point of view on this, even though I disagree with you.

To wit: you have not taken in to account a key tenant of modern pedagogy. Everyone has a different learning style. What works for you may not work for me.
  • Some need to learn basic movement first.
  • Some are nervous types and need to learn to place pro first.
  • Some are nervous types and will never use any pro but a bolt.
  • Some are weak and need to get stronger before anything else happens.
  • Some have Outdoor Attention Deficit Disorder and need to experience new stuff regularly to keep learning.
  • Some need to find inspiration, and therefore need to try everything out first to find their niche.
  • Some learn by doing, some by hearing, some by reading, others by imagining.

There is no universal prescription. You cannot control the learning of others. This is especially true of climbers, who are a rebellious sort.

As many people said a sequence of learning from boulder to sport and to trad...I am a little bit confuse. Sport climber are very institutionel in there learning patern.

I think in consideration what you said and it is what I called working on our weakness. Even dgoguen will found bizarre to see at the north end practice people leading on aid to gain confidence in there pro with one aider at a time. Dgoguen use two set of aider as a leader and it is a good technique.

As I climbed with one guy, he place his life two or three time in danger of a ground fall or decking on a ledge and falling after...and he didn't understand it because he didn't have the knowledge...but he follow the rigid learning process of sport climbing.

In your list, You don't talk about how a person gain reflex. maybe you know about subliminal messages. It is when you are listening or doying some things a number of time, after a while, you do that thing automatically. It is one problem actually. As the climber learn to climb on bolt, he place his body in some particular position that he thing will be good. He follow some set of rules that work perfectly in sport route. He have so many reflex that when he go to a trad route an a new environment...he risk his life without knowing it.

Some one said that on cam the fall is more dangerous...look at your beginer in sport who trad and you will understand that they make many dangerous mistake and when they realizer those mistake...they need a bolt. The true reason it is that they learned different reflex and those sport climbing reflex are not adapted to some trad situation.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 26, 2013, 09:37:58 PM
Falling on bolt and falling on well placed cam = same f’ing thing.... you continue to use too many words to not successfully make a point.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 26, 2013, 11:49:10 PM
LL, since you do not sport-climb, what the heck do you know about "the rigid learning process of sport climbing."?

In fact, I do not believe there is or ought to be one.  As Pete pointed out, everyone learns the same skill set in a different way.  Does training improve sport climbing?  For sure it does.  Does it improve trad climbing?  Sure it does.  Do not confuse training with some rigid learning process. 

As for "He have so many reflex that when he go to a trad route an a new environment...he risk his life without knowing it.", have you considered it is just plain bad moves sport or trad?  If possible, please give examples of good moves one would do on a sport route that becomes life threatening in trad.  So many of us want to climb like Edlinger - an exquisite technical climber.  Should we climb less like Edlinger and more like you to be "safe"?  Perhaps you should post up a video of your fine trad techniques.  Maybe how you climb the crux of Diedre, seeing how you criticized the technique of a leader to no end based on a single still photo.

Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: JBro on November 27, 2013, 09:27:33 AM
I believe the most challenging aspect of trad climbing for most sport climbers is figuring out how to get their several gallon jugs of water up a multi-pitch climb. Therefore, sport climbers should probably first learn to aid climb.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 27, 2013, 10:39:14 AM
I believe the most challenging aspect of trad climbing for most sport climbers is figuring out how to get their several gallon jugs of water up a multi-pitch climb. Therefore, sport climbers should probably first learn to aid climb.

A+
even if I describe a situation where the climber was lucky to be in birds nest as all pro is so easily safe that a stopper can hold body weight even in the worst placement.

I agree that some one who go into a real A-1 or A-2 situation can learn a lot on safety in aid. Learning the basic from using sling and biner to the most recent technique of one aider at a time
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 27, 2013, 11:00:45 AM
So many of us want to climb like Edlinger - an exquisite technical climber.  Should we climb less like Edlinger and more like you to be "safe"?  Perhaps you should post up a video of your fine trad techniques.

Patrick Edlinger, grimper, was my book before I go to bed. The book is so use, that I have to fix it to save it. His book was wrote by two post graduate teacher in France and he discuss all dimension of climbing. Particularly the psychological aspect.

he said: the only think that a beginner can imitate from and expert climber, it is to chalk his hand in the chalk bag (la seule chose que le debutant puisse mimer correctement est le trempage des doigts dans le sac a magnesie)

To progress he explain that the climber have to know how to be safe and to know how to master his emotion...after he will learn the economy of energy by learning a better technique.

To control your emotion, a bolt can be very safe. You are controlling one emotion: clipping the bolt before you fall. In trad, you have to control many other emotion and the presence of your partner is one of them. As a leader I have to evaluate my partner and bring it at a higher level or follow a better leader than me. Base, marc Chauvin, Sa, Joe Cote...are stongly better leader than me. They know all what I am writing, but maybe they can't put words on it to explain it. and maybe they will loose the attention of the people because some guy don't try to understand what is good for them and what it is not, but just challenge other people who bring new argument (control emotion with heuristical clue, short cut of the brain etc is new). A layback is still a layback. But one can place his feet at a place so there feet will slip first and an other as his hand will slip first. This will make all the difference between hurting your back and hurting your feet in a fall. If you don't understand my example, maybe it is better to ask question to understand than to criticize someone who try to put words on some thing less evident than a bolt to solve all the problem.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 27, 2013, 02:28:11 PM
LL, you can bet your Thanksgiving turkey (tho I know it is not the same day in Canada) that I, along with many on this forum, understand the basis of your point, and all that about how to do a layback "correctly".  It is the wild extrapolation and over generalization that follows that is the problem for us.  You have the correct starting point.  But most of the time you end up at the wrong place and conclusion via a torturous journey.

How about that video how you think the crux of Diedre ought to be climbed?  Or how you climb a layback.  Teach us! 

By the way, JBrochu is most likely poking fun youngish sport climbers who tend to lug too much water for a short day at Rumney, up the steep trails and down again.  Sorry you missed the joke or at least what I think is a joke.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 28, 2013, 11:49:24 AM
How about that video how you think the crux of Diedre ought to be climbed?  Or how you climb a layback.  Teach us! 
.

To be challenge to show who his the best is not really climbing, in my opinion, what ever ethic you use. I can say which ethic I prefer and explain why so many accident happen in trad situation because people climb trad route with sport ethic.

Even if the last time I had real problem to do diedra crux, I still thinking that it is a 5.9, tricky faive nine that I did on sight without cam.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: ed_esmond on November 29, 2013, 08:16:49 AM
How about that video how you think the crux of Diedre ought to be climbed?  Or how you climb a layback.  Teach us! 
.
To be challenge to show who his the best is not really climbing, in my opinion, what ever ethic you use. I can say which ethic I prefer and explain why so many accident happen in trad situation because people climb trad route with sport ethic.

Even if the last time I had real problem to do diedra crux, I still thinking that it is a 5.9, tricky faive nine that I did on sight without cam.

Have you considered the reason why "so many accident happen in trad situation" is because so many "trad" climbers actually suck at climbing?

And, if "show who is the best is not really climbing…"  why did you have to tell us you did it "on sight without cam??" Sounds to me like someone trying to show how he's "the best," (or at least soooo much better than the rest of us punters.

gobble, gobble;

ed e

ps  i know i shouldn't have responded, but i'm still high on a turkey...
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 29, 2013, 08:48:39 PM
LL, it is unproductive to critique others without telling us the "correct" way to do something you claim to know well.
I agree with you Diedre did not feel .10 when I did it many years ago.  Oh, I have no idea what gear I placed.  Too long ago!
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 30, 2013, 08:52:42 AM
Not sure about how to lead it but the correct way to climb the crux of of Didre on 2nd is to fall at the manky pin. you will then swing right through the tricky move to the good holds and it will be a piece of cake 8)
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: kenreville on November 30, 2013, 09:44:54 PM
As I've told you before LL, if ethics (which is highly subjective) is your bag (TRULY), then drop your rope and start hard soloing.
Put your ass out where your mouth is.
Otherwise, STFU.
No. Really. It's the right thing to do.
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on December 02, 2013, 11:35:47 AM
LL, it is unproductive to critique others without telling us the "correct" way to do something you claim to know well.

Doing a layback is more a question of style than ethic. Many people can do the move differently without using the power need to call the route a 5.10. As one or more people is able to do it without too much energy, we have to think that those who make it like 5.10 most trained there technique to be more efficient at it. Increasing our knowledge never kill any body.

Chalenging some one to do a route where he can lost is life in doing it to show how good he is....For me it is not climbing. Maybe it is a part of the sport climbing mentality that we have that many people don't like
Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: kenreville on December 02, 2013, 03:32:49 PM
LL, it is unproductive to critique others without telling us the "correct" way to do something you claim to know well.

Doing a layback is more a question of style than ethic. Many people can do the move differently without using the power need to call the route a 5.10. As one or more people is able to do it without too much energy, we have to think that those who make it like 5.10 most trained there technique to be more efficient at it. Increasing our knowledge never kill any body.

Chalenging some one to do a route where he can lost is life in doing it to show how good he is....For me it is not climbing. Maybe it is a part of the sport climbing mentality that we have that many people don't like

I'm not challenging you to go lose your life. I'm attempting to get you to understand that the differences between "sport" and "trad" are NO WAY NEAR the differences that you CONTINUALLY (ad naseum) spew forth.

Title: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on December 02, 2013, 05:44:30 PM
Chalenging some one to do a route where he can lost is life in doing it to show how good he is....For me it is not climbing.
No one wants you to put your life on the line to show us anything.  Unless videotaping youself doing the crux of Diedre or a layback of your choice constitutes that.

+1 to what Ken wrote too.