NEClimbs.com forum

General => Epics and Accidents => Topic started by: Admin Al on March 16, 2013, 09:11:36 pm

Title: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 16, 2013, 09:11:36 pm
I don't know what happened, but I understand that there was a very serious accident on Standard Route today. are there any details?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 16, 2013, 09:32:24 pm
Some folks who assisted on the carry said it was a solo climber...

Not sure if it was related but everyone still getting after it should know things went from soft/easy to weird/brittle following that 2 days of rain then very cold temps... Standard was a total walk-up 5 days ago, but is probably a bit “dinner platy” now...

Again, no idea what happened here... just saying heads up for those still getting out there...
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 16, 2013, 09:55:57 pm
Victim appeared to be mid fiftys No ID and not able to communicate that info? soloing and fell from below the cave to the RR tracks hitting a good sized rock just before the tracks and possibly a tree as well. seemed in very serious condition with troubble breathing. the carry was smooth and fast with lots of folks helping and at least one SAR member & EMT on scene.

Standard center and right looked stepped out and very casual? standard left looked detached, baked and dangerous. Hobbit looked a bit detached? Pegasus Rock finish was excelent with the Hobbit start. The Pegasus pillars looked ready to fall at any moment. Smear looked reasonaby safe. lots of very dangerous conditions out there right now and a few safe options for the experienced climber. be aware that baked out hangers from the top of standard  and many other areas can kill you standing at the base...
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: lucky luke on March 16, 2013, 10:52:07 pm
Standard center and right looked stepped out and very casual? standard left looked detached, baked and dangerous. Hobbit looked a bit detached? Pegasus Rock finish was excelent with the Hobbit start. The Pegasus pillars looked ready to fall at any moment. Smear looked reasonaby safe. lots of very dangerous conditions out there right now and a few safe options for the experienced climber. be aware that baked out hangers from the top of standard  and many other areas can kill you standing at the base...
ice was bad few weeks ago in standard, many of us had already call the season.

Hope a fast recovery for him
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 16, 2013, 10:54:28 pm
I do not know if ice condition had anything to do with This fall? The ice in the area that he fell from was blue, stepped out and very easy looking.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: punxnotdead on March 17, 2013, 07:44:53 am
The ice on standard was quite good up to, and out of the cave (on the left). All of the ways up the route looked very stepped out and seemingly "easy." We cut right over to the penguin, which was in the best shape I have ever seen it.
On our way out there was a dude who asked us if we a going to do standard route and asked if we would guide him. He seemed pretty confused and kind of "odd," but I attributed it to maybe not knowing English too well (champ?). He was wearing blue pants and a blue jacket.  Could this have been the guy who fell?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 17, 2013, 07:56:59 am
...
On our way out there was a dude who asked us if we a going to do standard route and asked if we would guide him. He seemed pretty confused and kind of "odd," but I attributed it to maybe not knowing English too well (champ?). He was wearing blue pants and a blue jacket.  Could this have been the guy who fell?

Wow, scary. Whoever it was hope they fully recover.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 17, 2013, 08:40:04 am
yes that is the guy. he asked several other climbers for a belay.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: slink on March 17, 2013, 10:41:15 am
Punx I had the same thoughts after reading this.Kind of sad hopefully he recovers alright.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Woody48 on March 17, 2013, 10:50:42 am
A friend and I climbed Standard Route on Friday.  I thought it he ice was in decent shape except for the top pillers being a bit baked out.  This is terrible to hear about an accident like this.  I hope this gentleman pulls through.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: punxnotdead on March 17, 2013, 12:49:18 pm
Slink, I think i should have insisted more forcefully on $100 to take him up. JK
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 17, 2013, 04:57:52 pm
let's try and keep this thread focused on the actual topic PLEASE!!!!
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: punxnotdead on March 17, 2013, 05:03:06 pm
Is there a news story out there as to how that guy it's doing? In retrospect, I wonder if he had a bit of dementia.


Big brother is watching
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 17, 2013, 05:06:03 pm
What post was not on-topic Al?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 17, 2013, 05:17:04 pm
Punks is bringing up what several folks said that he did not seem right, seemed to have a hard time walking and did not look solid at all climbing? this is just hersay from me as I did not encounter him before he was hurt. I was not going to mention this but folks are going to speculate anyways so there it is.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 17, 2013, 05:17:32 pm
What post was not on-topic Al?

all the posts regarding Luke's comment. all of which have been removed!
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: sneoh on March 17, 2013, 05:20:55 pm
No, not really; Admin's prerogative.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 17, 2013, 05:36:13 pm
I know he was hurt very, very seriously and DART flighted. I hope he made it. Knowing what the final outcome of a rescue is helps the folks involved process it INMOP
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 17, 2013, 06:16:41 pm
I know he was hurt very, very seriously and DART flighted. I hope he made it. Knowing what the final outcome of a rescue is helps the folks involved process it INMOP

While I certainly hope the victim recovers 100%, today I found myself thinking more about those who assisted in this rescue, and the impact it can have. Watching someone deck while ice climbing can have long lasting effects. Trying to care for someone who is seriously injured doing something you were enjoying moments before can really impact your future climbing.

For those who assisted, thank you.

Dropping everything to help a fallen climber should be every climber’s reaction. Witnessing these accidents can have strong effects. I’ve seen people quit climbing after watching fatalities, and you can’t blame them.

While it’s been 10 years since I’ve watched anyone die climbing I still think about it every time I enter Tucks. Every broken bone and head laceration I’ve seen since has effected me in some way. Serious injuries are traumatic to more than just the victims.

Hoping those who helped and watched it happen don’t loose to much sleep...
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 17, 2013, 06:44:29 pm
That gentleman approached me as well at the bottom of Standard, and really did appear to be very confused. He had trouble finishing his sentences and didn't appear to have an accent. I almost asked him if he was alright. He wanted to hook up for a climb but we were leaving after just finishing the penguin anyway.
Best wishes for recovery.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: scrappydog on March 17, 2013, 08:18:48 pm
hello all , the accident I believe you are all describing has a person who is mentally stable , still very green at climbing.  He has suffered multiple broken ribs to his back side of his ribs, possible fractured or broken shoulder, collapsed lungs at the moment, multiple contusions all over from landing on his back after hitting a tree on the way down. gonna be long recovery but at this stage of the game looks like he'll live. 

Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: scrappydog on March 17, 2013, 08:29:11 pm
oh by the way I cannot say what his coherent condition was yesterday I wasn't there just if this is the same accident that im talking about I would like to add a big thank you to the person that saw the fall and to all the rescuers who helped him out.  why do I say this.......  because hes my brother and he wouldn't be alive today without your help.  so don't get lost on if he was coherent or not he was still new at this and was probably nervous   I cant say for sure and don't really care just thankful for all that helped out and just remember every dog has his day   yours nomatter how good you are could be tomorrow
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 17, 2013, 08:41:27 pm
Thank you for the update. It is great news that he will recover.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: punxnotdead on March 17, 2013, 08:53:13 pm
We hope for a speedy recovery.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: scrappydog on March 17, 2013, 08:55:49 pm
thank you and to all that helped  ....   that's whats most important   .
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 17, 2013, 09:20:40 pm
so don't get lost on if he was coherent or not he was still new at this and was probably nervous 
Yeah I could see that as being the case, thanks for posting. I didn't mean to judge. You talk to someone on the tracks for a minute and move along, not knowing it's a pivotal moment in someones life. Good luck to your family. We all started green at some point and it can be a steep learning curve.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: mtwanderer on March 17, 2013, 09:23:01 pm
Scrappydog.  Thanks for posting and letting us know how your brother is doing.  I hope he has a speedy recovery.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 17, 2013, 09:44:27 pm
gonna be long recovery but at this stage of the game looks like he'll live. 

thank heavens... and thanks for posting the update.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: punxnotdead on March 17, 2013, 09:47:20 pm
Next season when he is better, I would be happy to take him up standard route for free (plus some pointers).

Bill Keiler
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: xcrag_corex on March 17, 2013, 11:08:29 pm
Wishing the man a lightning fast recovery and hopefully the continued desire to get out, explore, and climb.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: old_school on March 18, 2013, 09:54:16 am
Happy to hear he is going to be ok. Speedy and full recovery!
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: ridgerunner on March 18, 2013, 11:40:03 am
+1 on a complete and fast recovery.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 18, 2013, 12:42:18 pm
Next season when he is better, I would be happy to take him up standard route
My God Bill,
hasn't the man suffered enough. Ha
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: punxnotdead on March 18, 2013, 02:49:23 pm
Well, Dave. You're a glutton for punishment as well. Be careful, big brother is watching....... :P
LOL
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: perswig on March 18, 2013, 07:51:16 pm
^^
Generous offer - you're a good guy, Bill.

Dale
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Mr. G on March 18, 2013, 08:13:01 pm
I was there in a party of three. Two of us were inside the cave belaying and the leader was about 10 -15 feet up from the right side of the cave when he heard a thud and then saw this person go all the way to the tracks. 

Our leader downclimbed back to us and we all rapped from the cave to assist.  By the time we got down to the tracks the gentlemen was already in the litter and we assisted with the carry back to the parking lot.

Very happy to hear he will be alright.  He is very lucky that there were lots of good people around to assist.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 18, 2013, 09:00:01 pm
Is there a litter on-site at Frankenstein?  Where?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: JBro on March 18, 2013, 09:08:33 pm
I believe the rescue cache is at the lower parking lot or just above the lower parking lot on the right side of the road headed uphill. I found a picture of it online but it's copyrighted so I cannot put it inline but here is a link to the picture.

http://scenicnh.photoshelter.com/image/I0000Pr_U4V.67lk
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 18, 2013, 09:41:21 pm
Ohhh....  I thought that was a porto-potty to be used only in the event of an emergency.  My bad. :)
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 18, 2013, 10:04:00 pm
The litter is hanging under the porch of the log cabin/ranger hut.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: mtnmoma on March 18, 2013, 10:10:45 pm
Really good to hear that he is going to make it. Hard to erase the image of the litter moving down the railroad tracks....knowing he was badly hurt.  I wish him a speedy and full recovery!
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: JBro on March 18, 2013, 10:16:06 pm
The litter is hanging under the porch of the log cabin/ranger hut.

Thanks for the correction.

I wonder if they moved it there sometime in the past 10 years or if I just have a bad memory? I'm pretty sure it used to hang on the side of that rescue cache.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 19, 2013, 10:33:17 am
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20130318/NEWS07/130319089&template=mobileart
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 19, 2013, 10:39:20 am
I have posted this before, but it is appropriate to mention it again...

The rescue litter is located at Bill King's house, at the top of the Arethusa road. It is located under his front porch and has been the for many years. He has a land line and can easily call for help as there is minimal cell service in the Notch. There is a also pay phone at the Dry River Campground just north of Arethusa road, directly across from the Amphitheater.

Bill is a great guy, he is NOT a ranger. Whenever you see him, say hi. He and his wife live there full time, so the next time you decide to take a pee or dump right there, remember it's basically in his front yard!
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tim03303 on March 19, 2013, 10:41:03 am
The old rescue cache was placed there in the early 80's.  It was a donated repurposed Concord Electric meter shed.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Dallas on March 19, 2013, 10:59:01 am
Sounds like his condition has been upgraded to fair.

http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/boston-north/New-Hampshire-ice-climber-fair-after-Crawford-Notch-fall/-/11984708/19369000/-/2i5a7t/-/index.html
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 19, 2013, 02:34:59 pm
The news reports all seem to be saying he fell 70'. I would say that the distance from near the cave, all the way down to the tracks would be closer to 200'. I'd think it's darn close to a full rope length, or more.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: ELM on March 19, 2013, 02:41:31 pm
I would agree AL....could be 300' to the tracks!!
I think it would make sense to have a new litter and cache at the Frankenstein Trestle. Most of the accidents happen within a 1/2 mile radius of the trestle and it's a great central location.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 20, 2013, 12:11:07 am
Not a bad idea. Worth mentioning to Rick Wilcox.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 20, 2013, 09:15:33 am
It certainly does not look like a full rope from standing on the tracks?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 20, 2013, 09:19:57 am
The news reports all seem to be saying he fell 70'. I would say that the distance from near the cave, all the way down to the tracks would be closer to 200'. I'd think it's darn close to a full rope length, or more.

This is probably because witnesses would say he “fell 70’ feet”, then slid/bounced down to the tracks. Total fall was probably closer to 170’, but the quote that reached the media was 70’.

It’s about 90-100 feet from the base of Standard down to the tracks.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 20, 2013, 10:16:31 am
A few weeks ago the butt slide down from dracula was insane. Getting ready to climb while some folks were leaveing. I heard a yelp and the guy was at the bottom some how OK. When we left I slid in the fresh snow most of the way down (cautious old guy) but decided to get in the track for the last 30ft. OMG that was fast!
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: RCorry on March 20, 2013, 11:12:02 am
Is it fair to start the discussion regarding decision making and why this climber decided to solo this route. With all due respect to both the victim and his brother who has joined this thread, this needs to be addressed. Ice climbing is becoming much more popular and it feels like we keep seeing more and more inexperienced climbers taking really foolish risks. Casual falls on lead, standing in the firing line of dangerous hanging ice, soloing shit they probably shouldnt even be leading? This not only places themselves in serious danger, but it also effects all the other climbers around them as was mentioned before.

The comment was made that he was "green" to climbing. How is the justification made to solo Standard as a "green" climber? I know that doesnt clearly explain what his level of ability or experience is, but it should be clear that if someone describes you as "green" , you shouldnt be soloing ice, PERIOD.

Because he couldnt find a partner? What happened to adapting your plans to the day and the circumstances so you leave the mountains to play another day?

Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 20, 2013, 05:43:33 pm
Is it fair to start the discussion regarding decision making and why this climber decided to solo this route. With all due respect to both the victim and his brother who has joined this thread, this needs to be addressed. Ice climbing is becoming much more popular and it feels like we keep seeing more and more inexperienced climbers taking really foolish risks. Casual falls on lead, standing in the firing line of dangerous hanging ice, soloing shit they probably shouldnt even be leading? This not only places themselves in serious danger, but it also effects all the other climbers around them as was mentioned before.

The comment was made that he was "green" to climbing. How is the justification made to solo Standard as a "green" climber? I know that doesnt clearly explain what his level of ability or experience is, but it should be clear that if someone describes you as "green" , you shouldnt be soloing ice, PERIOD.

Because he couldnt find a partner? What happened to adapting your plans to the day and the circumstances so you leave the mountains to play another day?

  You're never going to stop people from making poor choices. 
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 20, 2013, 05:53:10 pm
I would love to hear more from the victim’s brother or the victim but I’m not holding my breath... unfortunately to often than not victims are to embarrassed or in denial to share their thought process after an accident like this... but maybe they will?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: hobbsj on March 20, 2013, 06:09:22 pm
Quote
  You're never going to stop people from making poor choices.

That's a bogus statement.  We as climbers fall in to that category to the rest of the world. You don't know this guy's decision making nor the conditions he made those choices in.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 20, 2013, 06:27:13 pm
Quote


 You're never going to stop people from making poor choices.

That's a bogus statement.  We as climbers fall in to that category to the rest of the world. You don't know this guy's decision making nor the conditions he made those choices in.

Dude, the verdict is in on his choice to solo standard route.  Please explain how you could possibly stop humans beings from making poor choices.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: pappy on March 20, 2013, 07:57:18 pm
Quote


  You're never going to stop people from making poor choices.

That's a bogus statement.  We as climbers fall in to that category to the rest of the world. You don't know this guy's decision making nor the conditions he made those choices in.

Dude, the verdict is in on his choice to solo standard route.  Please explain how you could possibly stop humans beings from making poor choices.

Oh that's easy: We just pass a law. And another one. And another one. And another one....

Whenever I hear a climber virtuously slamming tobacco and soda and extolling the virtues of taxing the crap out of people 'for their own good' I remind them that they will come for us next. I usually get a deer in the headlights look as response.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 20, 2013, 09:18:07 pm
Is it fair to start the discussion regarding decision making and why this climber decided to solo this route. With all due respect to both the victim and his brother who has joined this thread, this needs to be addressed. Ice climbing is becoming much more popular and it feels like we keep seeing more and more inexperienced climbers taking really foolish risks. Casual falls on lead, standing in the firing line of dangerous hanging ice, soloing shit they probably shouldnt even be leading? This not only places themselves in serious danger, but it also effects all the other climbers around them as was mentioned before.

The comment was made that he was "green" to climbing. How is the justification made to solo Standard as a "green" climber? I know that doesnt clearly explain what his level of ability or experience is, but it should be clear that if someone describes you as "green" , you shouldnt be soloing ice, PERIOD.

Because he couldnt find a partner? What happened to adapting your plans to the day and the circumstances so you leave the mountains to play another day?

Don't fret about the guy that goes bouncing by. If he takes you out, that's another story. You choose to help him out after his fuckup? That's your choice. Casting judgement after the fact? Way "bogus".
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: hobbsj on March 20, 2013, 09:33:27 pm

  You're never going to stop people from making poor choices.

That's a bogus statement.  We as climbers fall in to that category to the rest of the world. You don't know this guy's decision making nor the conditions he made those choices in.

Dude, the verdict is in on his choice to solo standard route.  Please explain how you could possibly stop humans beings from making poor choices.
[/quote]

So if Steve House fell on repentance, would it be a poor choice?  Its the freakin mountain.  You can make all the right choices and still get f'd up.  You can make poor choices and escape unscathed.  I've been fortunate enough to go through both of these. Your level of acceptable risk is different than mine.  So because he fell and because of that the jury is in?  Or is it b/c we have guys posting on an online forum about their limited interaction with him.  Not saying they aren't being honest, just that its their perspective on events which may not be representative.  We get enough crap about how climbing is dangerous blah blah blah and how every accident is due to poor choices.  I'm just curious with a comment like that of why your threshold is the one that should designate how good a decision is.  What we do as a hobby is a bad decision to most and everything should be a top-rope with crash-pads.  Maybe dude wasn't in the right mind to be making choices to begin with.  Or maybe just incredibly socially awkward when asking strangers for a favor.  God know I've run across dudes asking for belays who I think are a bit off as well as have had people wonder about me.  Not saying it wasn't bad decision making.  But, you don't know the guys perspective and the events that unfolded after he left the tracks until the plunge.  So don't go branding him until we know what happened or you're no better than the wankers who sit there on news sites complaining about how stupid we are as they eat their double mc-heart-attack. 

Reminds me of what my buddy told me once.  In climbing, what's the difference between bold and bad judgement?  If you make it down alive, you were bold.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 20, 2013, 09:45:23 pm
Comparing a very accomplished nationally recognized climber with someone who’s own brother said “he is new and green to this sport” is a bit much...

I don’t think we are “branding” him, but trying to figure out what exactly happened here. No need to get so defensive... but all eyewitness reports and the brother’s comments add up to someone taking a pretty big un-calculated risk IMO... how many people ask for belays, even ask a stranger to “guide them”, before deciding to just solo it?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 21, 2013, 07:40:02 am
There is no gray area in SOLOING(climbing is a bit different).  If you were soloing and need to be carried home in a litter YOU MADE A POOR CHOICE PERIOD! 

@Ken "way bogus"?  I help people whenever and wherever I can. 
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 21, 2013, 07:51:18 am
I'm not making a judgement about the fellow's character, I'm simply saying that choosing to solo standard route, on a Saturday with climbers above, as a newbie ice climber was a poor choice.  There is no other way to spin it.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: RCorry on March 21, 2013, 07:59:43 am
Is it fair to start the discussion regarding decision making and why this climber decided to solo this route. With all due respect to both the victim and his brother who has joined this thread, this needs to be addressed. Ice climbing is becoming much more popular and it feels like we keep seeing more and more inexperienced climbers taking really foolish risks. Casual falls on lead, standing in the firing line of dangerous hanging ice, soloing shit they probably shouldnt even be leading? This not only places themselves in serious danger, but it also effects all the other climbers around them as was mentioned before.

The comment was made that he was "green" to climbing. How is the justification made to solo Standard as a "green" climber? I know that doesnt clearly explain what his level of ability or experience is, but it should be clear that if someone describes you as "green" , you shouldnt be soloing ice, PERIOD.

Because he couldnt find a partner? What happened to adapting your plans to the day and the circumstances so you leave the mountains to play another day?

Don't fret about the guy that goes bouncing by. If he takes you out, that's another story. You choose to help him out after his fuckup? That's your choice. Casting judgement after the fact? Way "bogus".

Come on. Are you really that cavalier? I guess i havent reached hardman status where i could watch a fellow climber and member of a community i care deeply about "go bouncing by" without letting it effect me and cause me to reflect more about why it happened.

My post was not intended to pass judgement on this guy. It was intented to open a discussion about why and how we are making decisions like this one. If this climber had intended or felt that he was capable of soloing standard and it was within his limits, why all the fishing for belays and comments about "guiding" me up the mountain. In what decision making process does a "green" climber just say screw it, i will just solo this?

I am glad someone brought up Steve House. Is the climbing community so innundated with the 1% doing superman level stuff that it is making the 99% think they are capable of things outside of their reach? Do we need better education about how to assess and make risk decisions? I am not saying that we all dont have different acceptable levels of risk, but i would argue that alot of folks dont know how to honestly and accurately define their own skill level. If you cant do that, then how can you make good decisions in the mountains?

Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 21, 2013, 08:06:19 am
Quote
In climbing, what's the difference between bold and bad judgement?  If you make it down alive, you were bold.

+1 That one goes into the Climber's Quotes...
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 21, 2013, 08:14:59 am
Quote
I am glad someone brought up Steve House. Is the climbing community so innundated with the 1% doing superman level stuff that it is making the 99% think they are capable of things outside of their reach? Do we need better education about how to assess and make risk decisions? I am not saying that we all dont have different acceptable levels of risk, but i would argue that alot of folks dont know how to honestly and accurately define their own skill level. If you cant do that, then how can you make good decisions in the mountains?

I think that this is a perfectly reasonable topic for discussion. Maybe even warranting it's own topic. That said, you really gotta wonder if it had any impact on this particular climber's decision to solo the route? And if he sketched his way to the top, would he have been emboldened to try something harder? Clearly we aren't going to know the answer to that question, unless the climber decided to talk about it. and I agree with DMAn on this:

Quote
I would love to hear more from the victim’s brother or the victim but I’m not holding my breath... unfortunately to often than not victims are to embarrassed or in denial to share their thought process after an accident like this... but maybe they will?

That's why I find it so interesting, and frankly invaluable, to read AINAM reports where there is an analysis by the person or persons who were directly involved in an incident. It gives me an insight into their decision making progress that we rarely get.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 21, 2013, 10:04:34 am
Quote
In climbing, what's the difference between bold and bad judgement?  If you make it down alive, you were bold.

+1 That one goes into the Climber's Quotes...

I dislike bravado quotes like this. Maybe in the eyes of some if you survived then you were bold, but that's not an indicator of whether or not you made good choices. You simply may have been lucky.

Non-Event Feedback Loop: "The trap here relates to the Non-event Feedback Loop in decision making. When climbing decisions result in no accident, people may believe that they made the best choice. The climber may have been simply "lucky". It may be only a matter of time before acquired habits that seem adequate result in an accident" McCammon 2002 Heuristic Traps in Recreational Accidents
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: steve weitzler on March 21, 2013, 10:50:00 am
This accident has reminded me of a personal Frankenstein experience that happened to me about 20 years ago. It was later in the day and a buddy and myself were roped up to do one last climb (not even sure what one but Chia stands out). My memory is foggy these days. I was ready to climb when a guy comes along and says he is going to solo the route as it is an easy route he had done multiple times and asks if he can climb through. I had literally just placed my axes on the first move off the deck. We politely declined to let him climb through. It didn't take us long to do the route. When were at the top and had finished climbing we heard a faint, quivering voice below us asking if we would be so kind as to drop a rope to Mr. Solo climber. My partner immediatly said no as it is an easy route and besides Mr. Solo had done the route before and it being late in the day we were in a hurry to satiate our "thirst." Of course me being the nice, understanding guy that I am explained to my partner that if this guy decks it will take us a lot longer to get to the "satiating thirst place" (providing we scraped him up and carried him out) than if we dropped him a rope. Better judgement won out and I threw him a rope and put him on belay whereupon he immediatly fell. I am not sure if this story has any relevance but I guess I bring it up because the decisions we make as and while climbing have consequences and it often makes sense to weigh our decisions carefully as they affect not only ourselves but others.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 21, 2013, 10:53:27 am
Is it fair to start the discussion regarding decision making and why this climber decided to solo this route. With all due respect to both the victim and his brother who has joined this thread, this needs to be addressed. Ice climbing is becoming much more popular and it feels like we keep seeing more and more inexperienced climbers taking really foolish risks. Casual falls on lead, standing in the firing line of dangerous hanging ice, soloing shit they probably shouldnt even be leading? This not only places themselves in serious danger, but it also effects all the other climbers around them as was mentioned before.

The comment was made that he was "green" to climbing. How is the justification made to solo Standard as a "green" climber? I know that doesnt clearly explain what his level of ability or experience is, but it should be clear that if someone describes you as "green" , you shouldnt be soloing ice, PERIOD.

Because he couldnt find a partner? What happened to adapting your plans to the day and the circumstances so you leave the mountains to play another day?

Don't fret about the guy that goes bouncing by. If he takes you out, that's another story. You choose to help him out after his fuckup? That's your choice. Casting judgement after the fact? Way "bogus".

Come on. Are you really that cavalier? I guess i havent reached hardman status where i could watch a fellow climber and member of a community i care deeply about "go bouncing by" without letting it effect me and cause me to reflect more about why it happened.

My post was not intended to pass judgement on this guy. It was intented to open a discussion about why and how we are making decisions like this one. If this climber had intended or felt that he was capable of soloing standard and it was within his limits, why all the fishing for belays and comments about "guiding" me up the mountain. In what decision making process does a "green" climber just say screw it, i will just solo this?

I am glad someone brought up Steve House. Is the climbing community so innundated with the 1% doing superman level stuff that it is making the 99% think they are capable of things outside of their reach? Do we need better education about how to assess and make risk decisions? I am not saying that we all dont have different acceptable levels of risk, but i would argue that alot of folks dont know how to honestly and accurately define their own skill level. If you cant do that, then how can you make good decisions in the mountains?

It is not up to ANYone else to "make good decisions" other than the individual. Especially solo. So a "green" climber is asking for a belay, can't find one, and goes solo. What are "we" gonna do about it? Absolutely effin' nothing. It's HIS choice. Years ago I did alot of soloing. There were a few times when things got a bit scary. In each case I got it together and pulled the move. To this day many of my most memorable climbs. The only choice you have is to help or not to help if he skates off. That's my point.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: JBro on March 21, 2013, 12:20:50 pm
Quote
In climbing, what's the difference between bold and bad judgement?  If you make it down alive, you were bold.


I dislike bravado quotes like this. Maybe in the eyes of some if you survived then you were bold, but that's not an indicator of whether or not you made good choices. You simply may have been lucky.



(http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/f5dafb76db5e4e18c2df51e659d3e17a45739219_m.gif)
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: MT on March 21, 2013, 12:45:16 pm


It is not up to ANYone else to "make good decisions" other than the individual. Especially solo. So a "green" climber is asking for a belay, can't find one, and goes solo. What are "we" gonna do about it? Absolutely effin' nothing. It's HIS choice. Years ago I did alot of soloing. There were a few times when things got a bit scary. In each case I got it together and pulled the move. To this day many of my most memorable climbs. The only choice you have is to help or not to help if he skates off. That's my point.
[/quote]

I'd agree, but with a caveat.

It does matter what choices our fellow climbers make and, hence, these discussions, however disjointed, are constructive. (Maybe a discussion like this will stop the next "green" climber from pitching off Standard?) Folks rag-dolling down ice/rock climbs may make someone somewhere start asking whether folks should be allowed to climb here or there (State Law Maker; Parks Official; etc).

As a community, we probably need to come to grips with the fact that climbers' decisions shape the perception of our community by the broader public and, in turn, the constraints on our activity (eg, access, use restrictions). So if you amble upon an accident waiting to happen, probably a good idea to diplomatically let the folks involved know that things may not end up well. Thereafter, it's probably best to be as constructive as possible in getting the facts straight about what happened so that events don't repeat themselves. In this spirit, hopefully the involved party/brother will offer up their side and we will reserve/temper our judgements by the knowledge that we've all made bad decisions at one time or another and come out the other side....with a bit of luck, of course.

Mike

DISCLAIMER: This comment is in NO way meant to point a finger at anyone that came across this dude (Jim, Dave, Bill) that day since it's impossible sometimes to see an accident before it happens.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: grizzhiker2114 on March 21, 2013, 01:02:39 pm
Hey Everyone.

I was the EMT that was assisting in the rescue along side the guide from Mountain Rescue Service.

Just wanted to inform everyone that I was talking with the local fire dept up there.  Along with the litter that is hanging at the house they will also be putting a bag of med supplies up there.  BVM, OPAs, cervical collar, etc.  Hope that helps just in case there is another accident in the future.

Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: lucky luke on March 21, 2013, 01:21:33 pm
My post was not intended to pass judgement on this guy. It was intented to open a discussion about why and how we are making decisions like this one. If this climber had intended or felt that he was capable of soloing standard and it was within his limits, why all the fishing for belays and comments about "guiding" me up the mountain. In what decision making process does a "green" climber just say screw it, i will just solo this?

I am glad someone brought up Steve House. Is the climbing community so innundated with the 1% doing superman level stuff that it is making the 99% think they are capable of things outside of their reach? Do we need better education about how to assess and make risk decisions?

Oh! Oh!
Poor judgment
Safety... better education...

Look like I have a little bit of competition here.

If you go to the garage to test your car and the mecano said that he his good... you will trust your car and you can have an accident: poor judgment of the mecano of you?

If you told to a climber that beginer is grade four, that the cliff have step in it, that you must go for it, climb hard...etc, you will trust your teacher and you can have an accident: poor judgment or is it in a way you promote climbing?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: ELM on March 21, 2013, 04:32:27 pm
Youch!! We gotten nasty. >:(
I really think Steves actions are with one's to follow.
I barely solo getting out of bed but that's me. If you have a fellow climber who needs a hand you give it. If they are doing stupid stuff you point it out.
Give us all bit of a break and help each other out. The media does enought to get climbing accident wrong; we don't need to help create them. :)
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Admin Al on March 21, 2013, 05:10:36 pm
Give us all bit of a break and help each other out. The media does enought to get climbing accident wrong; we don't need to help create them. :)

+1


the "quote machine is fine BTW...
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: sneoh on March 21, 2013, 05:12:38 pm
Give us all bit of a break and help each other out. The media does enought to get climbing accident wrong; we don't need to help create them. :)
+1
Hear, hear.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: lucky luke on March 22, 2013, 02:23:59 am
If they are doing stupid stuff you point it out.
[...}
The media does enought to get climbing accident wrong; we don't need to help create them. :)

One of the last journal I red on climbing (http://www.conwaydailysun.com/index.php/rss-feed/95685-slides-030913) is a good paper for climber and all user of mt Washington. He interview at least two guides that I know personally and whit who I can rope up any times. And they bring argument from both side. A good paper. 

I always think at the next one. If the guy as poor judgment, he his an isolate case and few accident like that will happen... But Rcory (and many others) don't say that: " Ice climbing is becoming much more popular and it feels like we keep seeing more and more inexperienced climbers taking really foolish risks. Casual falls on lead, standing in the firing line of dangerous hanging ice, soloing shit...". So, maybe is a social problem.

If they are doing stupid stuff you point it out. Some people understand that it is a social problem that we can solve. Evolution go by mistake and good move. Asking question, like rcory did, and talking about it could be a good move to lower the number of foolish risk.
   
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 22, 2013, 07:06:58 am
A "social problem"????

What a load of crap. Many people (myself included) climb to GET AWAY from societal restraints. Just what ISN'T needed. Someone else telling you what/what not to do. Stop trying to save the world and be responsible for your own actions. Not others'.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: hobbsj on March 22, 2013, 08:12:40 am
A "social problem"????

What a load of crap. Many people (myself included) climb to GET AWAY from societal restraints. Just what ISN'T needed. Someone else telling you what/what not to do. Stop trying to save the world and be responsible for your own actions. Not others'.

Amen.  I love the accountability in climbing.  You have the unforeseeable actions of nature that you do your best to prepare for and your own party's (or your own depending on philosophy) decision making to blame for anything good or bad.  There's no laws or big brother or some idiot that cuts you off on the freeway.  Its all you.  You don't want to stop and place pro?  Well, you better feel real good or have enough gas to quickly move to the next stance or YOU may take a ride. That idea is I guess why I was overly defensive of dude earlier in thread as he had his own decision making process, possibly his own line he thought was bomber, and we have no idea what was acceptable to him.  All we can do is learn from the accidents like Al said, educate newbies that we take under our wing (I'm thankful every time i go out for the awesome mentor I had when I moved here), and speak up if it seems like somebody around you missed something.  Beyond that, its personal accountability.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 22, 2013, 08:02:50 pm
A "social problem"????

What a load of crap. Many people (myself included) climb to GET AWAY from societal restraints. Just what ISN'T needed. Someone else telling you what/what not to do. Stop trying to save the world and be responsible for your own actions. Not others'.

Amen.  I love the accountability in climbing.

+1
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 22, 2013, 08:22:32 pm
There is no gray area in SOLOING(climbing is a bit different).

Darwined. The above statement tells me that you know about as much about climbing as I know about spelling.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 22, 2013, 08:47:55 pm
There is no gray area in SOLOING(climbing is a bit different).

Darwined. The above statement tells me that you know about as much about climbing as I know about spelling.

I don't really understand your point.  Is this good or a dig?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 22, 2013, 08:55:38 pm
Most folks tell me i am an absolutly horrible speller...
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 22, 2013, 09:00:43 pm
Most folks tell me i am an absolutly horrible speller...

Oh cool.  Feel better now?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 22, 2013, 09:32:11 pm
I feel fine. Your statement implys that climbing is different from soloing which I find to be massivly uninformed/ignorant.  Soloing is climbing. One of the worst accidents I have been on scene for was a top rope failure. 18 or 21 broken bones. I forget which#? Ironicly the victim gave me shit for soloing about a decade after his top rope accident :-[

Gravity does not care if you use a rope or not. At least when you are soloing you rely mostly on yourself and not the equiptment.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 22, 2013, 09:41:11 pm
Your reading comprehension rivals your spelling.  "A BIT DIFFERENT"  Some safety system is completely different when compared to none at all.  If the climber is not proficient with the systems then it's only "a bit" different but you still have a chance of NOT cratering.

Seriously though... I'm just funnin' ;)
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 22, 2013, 09:46:17 pm
Ever whipped on a rope?  I bet you have.  Ever whipped on a Solo?  I bet you haven't.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 22, 2013, 09:55:16 pm
I feel fine. Your statement implys that climbing is different from soloing which I find to be massivly uninformed/ignorant.  Soloing is climbing. One of the worst accidents I have been on scene for was a top rope failure. 18 or 21 broken bones. I forget which#? Ironicly the victim gave me shit for soloing about a decade after his top rope accident :-[

Gravity does not care if you use a rope or not. At least when you are soloing you rely mostly on yourself and not the equiptment.

If you think soloing is the same as climbing with a rope/belayer, YOU'RE the one who is "massively ignorant". I contend that if you find them the least bit similiar, then you haven't come close to finding the bounds of your personal envelope.

BIG difference WRT gravity if you screwup and you've effectively protected yourself, or going splat.

I find it incredulous that someone who has soloed at all, would come out with such an ignorant statement.

Don't sweat it darwined. You are correct.

And trad, you are correct about your spelling. It sucks.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: JBro on March 22, 2013, 10:06:57 pm
There is no gray area in SOLOING(climbing is a bit different).  If you were soloing and need to be carried home in a litter YOU MADE A POOR CHOICE PERIOD!


I believe when it comes to soloing ice even the best have to assume some small chance of death due to circumstances beyond their control.

If you are soloing ice and haven't accepted that small probability, then I think you're fooling yourself. If you have accepted it, and your number comes up, then who are we to judge the quality of your choice?

If a climber isn't experienced enough to make a rational decision then the above wouldn't apply. But we don't really know for sure what happened in this situation. I just think your statement is flawed in general when it comes to very experienced ice soloists.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 22, 2013, 10:15:43 pm
"if you have accepted it"

Now there's an angle I hadn't considered.  That's pretty hardcore... and yep...who am I to judge?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: JBro on March 22, 2013, 10:20:44 pm
"if you have accepted it"

Now there's an angle I hadn't considered.  That's pretty hardcore... and yep...who am I to judge?

So are you opposed to all soloing? Or just opposed to soloing when it results in death?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 22, 2013, 10:26:12 pm
I never said I was opposed to soloing.  I've soloed and I can say I don't find it nearly as enjoyable as roping up with one of my friends.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: lucky luke on March 23, 2013, 02:04:10 am
I never said I was opposed to soloing.

let turn out the question, when are you for soloing?

I think that when some one led enought different kind of ice and can know the difference (brittel ice, diner plate, cauliflower, etc, when ther distance between his pro is longer, when he place his pro on easy ground and go faster on hard situation and maybe some other aspect...you must begin to solo to be stronger in your head. Maybe must is not the good term.

 
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 23, 2013, 09:37:04 am
You miss the point.. The anti solo crowd gets their pantys all in a bunch when a solid solo climber hikes their testpiece. They then justify their attitude by makeing a fuss when the rare accident occures.  The reality of the situation is that I will be safer soloing standard than many of the partys that pitch it out. That is a FACT that they can not grasp at their level.  Anytime you step into the verticle world we all play by the same rules of gravity. The difference between the solo climber and the roped climber is that the solo climber is acutly aware of the gravity situation and relys totaly on their  personal actions to stay alive. The roped climber  on the other hand relys on a system that they may or may not be useing correctly. Complacency or ignorance kick in and they go just as splat as solo climber who makes a mistake.  The roped climber who sits on their high horse declareing that solo climbers are iresponsible and will hurt access bla.bla,bla is one botched lower, poor gear placement, bad belay or blown rapell away from going splat themselfs.


 I seriously doubt that in this case the victim intended to solo the entire route. I feel he wanted to play really badly and no one would let him play with them so he figured he could boulder the very bottom super easy part and got in over his head imeadiatly..
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 23, 2013, 09:41:03 am
There's an "anti soloing" crowd? Really?

Can't say I've ever met one, but if so, I'd laugh in their face.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 23, 2013, 10:13:57 am
there is. i was actually talking with one of them picking up after the rescue.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: mopowers on March 23, 2013, 11:52:54 am
This is getting crazy.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 23, 2013, 12:30:35 pm
You simply CANNOT protect people from themselves. Nor should you try to. If a soloist comes bombing off and takes you out, well then bitch away. Otherwise, it's not your's or anyone else's concern.

The only decision you have to make is whether you want to help the fallen climber out. Not to pass any judgement whether you "agree" with what he was doing.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: hobbsj on March 23, 2013, 01:14:48 pm
You simply CANNOT protect people from themselves. Nor should you try to. If a soloist comes bombing off and takes you out, well then bitch away. Otherwise, it's not your's or anyone else's concern.


You don't get to bitch away!  You were an idiot for climbing under him or her. 8)  Just being a smart ass.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: sneoh on March 23, 2013, 01:41:23 pm
Though I do not agree 100% with your position, you have made some good points, Ken and I think I might need to tweak my mindset.
This - "The only decision you have to make is whether you want to help the fallen climber out. " - is a good point but almost everyone's impulse is to help a victim out.  Acting against this impulse might weigh heavily on one's conscience,  especially if the victim dies from his/her injuries.  If I had helped, might his/her life been saved?
Allow me to recount probably the 1st rescue I was involved in; a gumby huffed and puffed up the trail, no gear to speak of, no harness, asked us where the "easy" routes were. We pointed at a 5.7/5.8.  He took a look and decided it was not to his liking and decided to solo an uncleaned, slime covered, broken section of the crag instead.  We were dumbfounded.  Sure enough, about 15 feet up, he slipped and landed loudly on his side.  Much moaning ensued so we ran over.  It was obvious that there was only injury to his hip and leg.  And some light bleeding from scratches and such.  Someone ran to get help while we stayed with him to keep him conscious and comfortable.  When help arrived, we thought we were going to have a fatality, not of the soloist but one of the helpers who was panting so hard I thought he was either going to have a heart attack, pass out, or both!  Long story short, injured guy was taken to the ER (I am sure he recovered from his physical wounds) and our plans for the day were done for.  To this day (many, many years later), I pack up as quickly as I can and leave whenever I learn of a soloist climbing nearby.  I suppose you could say I have a bad mindset but I did have a formative experience early on. 
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 23, 2013, 02:03:45 pm
When I left the gentlemen at the tracks, I smiled and said enjoy the rest of your day. If he told me he was going to solo Standard, I would have smiled and said enjoy the rest of your day. I would expect nothing less from someone else. Although, I would carry you all the way to North Conway after you pitched.
Maybe stop at the Moat on the way but hey.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: lucky luke on March 23, 2013, 02:41:11 pm
You simply CANNOT protect people from themselves.
[...]
 Not to pass any judgement whether you "agree" with what he was doing.

tradmanclimb is one of his kind. His analysis of solo or rope up people versus safety show that he think about others and he gave a reason why someone can be trap at the bottom of standard and fall. I can't say the same when a person wrote that he smile and enjoy the rest of the day...as he didn't care about others. Asking what I can do for my budy climber is important for me.

So, by what we are doing, we can protect people from themselves.

tradmanclimb accuse some people to be antisolo. He have a large group of people who are angry about him because he solo he had good argument to say that some time he his more carefull than a beginer who rope up. On the other side, people don't like to see a solo climber because they are afraid of falling and if the solo guy felt, they won't climb any more (not very objective here, I think like tradmand).

So, if we don't pass judment, or agree with one of the other mentality, we can understand each mentality and decide which one is better for us and practice one of them without competing or be angry with the others.

>:(

What about trad and sport! :)

  :-[:D  you don't have to agreee, but understand each mentality... ;D ;D ;D

 :P :-*
   
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 23, 2013, 03:12:19 pm
You simply CANNOT protect people from themselves.
[...]
 Not to pass any judgement whether you "agree" with what he was doing.

tradmanclimb is one of his kind. His analysis of solo or rope up people versus safety show that he think about others and he gave a reason why someone can be trap at the bottom of standard and fall. I can't say the same when a person wrote that he smile and enjoy the rest of the day...as he didn't care about others. Asking what I can do for my budy climber is important for me.

So, by what we are doing, we can protect people from themselves.

tradmanclimb accuse some people to be antisolo. He have a large group of people who are angry about him because he solo he had good argument to say that some time he his more carefull than a beginer who rope up. On the other side, people don't like to see a solo climber because they are afraid of falling and if the solo guy felt, they won't climb any more (not very objective here, I think like tradmand).

So, if we don't pass judment, or agree with one of the other mentality, we can understand each mentality and decide which one is better for us and practice one of them without competing or be angry with the others.

>:(

What about trad and sport! :)

  :-[:D  you don't have to agreee, but understand each mentality... ;D ;D ;D

 :P :-*
 

I REALLY REALLY R E A L L Y want to understand what you are saying!!! I read a sentence and just when I think I've got the point, you go sideways.

Anywhoo, I remember maybe 15 years ago when a young woman (20ish) and her parents had scrambled around the fence on top of Cathedral. The three of them managed to get down the slab at the top of Grim Reaper (sad irony), when the daughter pine needled off. 150ft, one bounce and done.

After the incident, there was talk amongst local officials to both raise and/or extend the fence. More signage, etc.

Now take a minute and think about that. Local officials, the GOVERNMENT, was gonna "protect" the masses. How high and far would that fence need be?

My suggestion at the time was to tear up the road, and REMOVE the fence. I'm a firm believer in Darwinism.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 23, 2013, 03:38:54 pm
I can't say the same when a person wrote that he smile and enjoy the rest of the day...as he didn't care about others.

You really shouldn't cast aspersions on someone when you don't even understand what they said.
I said I smiled and told him to enjoy the rest of his day. Should I have tackled him and forced training on him. Geez Man.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 23, 2013, 03:50:13 pm
Methinks Luke thinks that he was laying on the tracks all busted up, and you saluted him and said have a great day. Seriously Luke, do you view your fellow climbers as uncaring savages? What would you have done? Talked to him in riddles until he just said fuggit and went home?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 23, 2013, 03:53:09 pm
Isn't the real irony that, for a community all seemingly driven by the same calling, we are all so remarkably different?
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 23, 2013, 04:02:10 pm
If you could remove yourself from the climbing world, then look back in, you'd see that REALLY we're a bunch of misfits.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: darwined on March 23, 2013, 04:06:27 pm
If you could remove yourself from the climbing world, then look back in, you'd see that REALLY we're a bunch of misfits.
I already knew I was. ;D
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 23, 2013, 04:27:27 pm
Methinks Luke thinks that he was laying on the tracks all busted up, and you saluted him and said have a great day. Seriously Luke, do you view your fellow climbers as uncaring savages?
Yeah that's the way it went down, after I rifled through his pockets and took his boots.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 23, 2013, 04:39:21 pm
Just your luck huh? They fit. ::)
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 23, 2013, 05:00:44 pm
Yeah but I threw his gloves back in his face. Bill took his pants.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: kenreville on March 23, 2013, 05:23:16 pm
You guys didn't molest him didja?

I'm gonna stop now.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: sneoh on March 23, 2013, 07:02:15 pm
If you could remove yourself from the climbing world, then look back in, you'd see that REALLY we're a bunch of misfits.
Isn't this the truth!! Throw in the word loony as well.  Non-climbers like my wife's friends don't say it but I KNOW they are thinking it!
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DLottmann on March 23, 2013, 07:41:01 pm
I can't say the same when a person wrote that he smile and enjoy the rest of the day...as he didn't care about others.

You really shouldn't cast aspersions on someone when you don't even understand what they said.
...

This. He’s mastered using emoticons now... great....
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: lucky luke on March 24, 2013, 12:05:15 am
You really shouldn't cast aspersions on someone when you don't even understand what they said.
I said I smiled and told him to enjoy the rest of his day. Should I have tackled him and forced training on him. Geez Man.

appologized for what I said. althought it is what I thought: did he care about other.  You make it clear that I was wrong.

Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: lucky luke on March 24, 2013, 12:22:41 am
Local officials, the GOVERNMENT, was gonna "protect" the masses. How high and far would that fence need be?

My suggestion at the time was to tear up the road, and REMOVE the fence. I'm a firm believer in Darwinism.

I am not for an intervention of government in climbing (any where in the world). I think that we can protect some one against himself, if he didn't have a mental disease. A comparaison between solo and rope up climber about safety, and a discussion between trad and sport about safety is very similar. When some one solo, I don't think that he do it to be superior to the other, but just because it is fun and chalenging. You feel every muscle of your body. when some one trad, he don't think that he is superior too. Anticipation, tactic to place the pro are just some thing appealing for me and I didn't find the same as in sport. Neverthless, i thing that solo is more dangerous than rope up climber in the same way that trad is more dangerous than sport. 

 

Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: punxnotdead on March 24, 2013, 09:19:53 am
Shh. Dave, I was going to sell them at IME. Slink molested him..
Title: Re: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 24, 2013, 09:46:53 am
appologized for what I said. althought it is what I thought:

Thank You Jacques, I appreciate that.

I also agree for the most part with your last post. Much better on the composition skills as well.

@ punx, I think Slink calls it placing the picket. Ha
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: scrappydog on March 25, 2013, 02:08:08 pm
hello all just an update finally that's real and not some stupid ass reporter getting it wrong.  the conditions of the climber are this  broken ankle, broken left scalpia (shoulder )   multiple like lots of them broken ribs, had two collapse lungs , possible one punctured lungs, multiple contusions, severe concusion and also a diffusion of the brain. Both chest tubes removed on Saturday, breathing on own, starting to respond better from head injury, starting to talk and respond, ( keeps asking for girlfriend to get him out and wants to start walking around ) and is recovering from pneumonia.   He is scheduled for surgery today to fix the shoulder and at time will decide if the ribs will be fixed or not, possible plate for them cause they are broken off / at the spine from the landing.  overall not out of the woods yet any surgery can kill him, but along way ahead of last weekend.  no matter what hes got a long long road ahead of him.    doctors are cautiously optimistic about his recovery but do expect him to survive at the moment..   oh and a big big thank you to all that helped again.  cant say that enough.   and his condition was never upgraded at all , ......  the reporter who printed that he was upgraded I think had his head up his .......  needed to make it up for a deadline probably.   will post more when the time is right .
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 25, 2013, 06:10:39 pm
Wow!  Prayers are with you guys!
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: DGoguen on March 26, 2013, 07:44:15 am
Yikes. Thanks for the update.
Sounds like he's a fighter if he's looking to get around already. I would think that's a good thing in the long run.
Best wishes.
Title: Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
Post by: Smear on March 26, 2013, 07:58:00 am
Happy to hear he is moving in the right direction.Best wishes to this gentleman.