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General => Rock Climbing: Trad => Topic started by: lucky luke on January 03, 2013, 02:53:41 AM

Title: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: lucky luke on January 03, 2013, 02:53:41 AM
Today, every people know the distinction between cross country skiing and alpine skiing. And nobody will say stupid thing like we both are on sky, weir winter equipment, etc. the difference is obvious, more than in our sport.
For those who make the distinction, we donít want either to be characterize, but we just need a guideline to be safe as we use both ethic. So, I try to give a definition of trad climbing to keep open our site and to interest people in that ethic of climbing. So, trad climber need:
1-skill for  leadership: Protection of the party against any danger. As a leader, you have to take decision and the other member have to help the leader to be safe. Two good decision take by two climber in the same team result often in one bad situation.  Training: follow experiences climbers and take the responsibility of leadership in small group.
2- skill for planification: Knowledge of the weather to know from where the storm will arrive, where is the route and to be able to find the big structure on the cliff for orientation, where we can rappel, when it is better to go to the summit than bail, quantity of water, food, ect.
3- skill for route finding: Knowledge to read the rock if we are doing a first ascent without indication. I considere that using a book like Webster, where we have a description of each pitch, the extreme limit before cheating. It is a ground up situation with some indication that a good climber could find by himself if he had, at least, a line to know that a route exist. Doing a route for a second time was describe as a training or just a relaxation.
4- skill for anticipation: Knowledge of the structure of the rock to find the hold and knowledge of the technique to find the best position. It is necessary to have no previous knowledge of the route because anticipation necessitate a prediction that a situation will arrived after a move.
5-skill for stress. Knowledge of our reaction on stress. On a bolt, the stress is just to fall. On a pro, the direction of the pull, the possibility that the pro pop out is more present. The obligation of running out is some time very stressfull as death can be the results. People can be stress two or three days before a climb like vmcdirect. In fact, more you want a route, more dangerous is the stress.
6-skill for rope drag: Using the rope to avoid rope drag and calculate the distance of the belay. Avoiding fall factor two, zipper effect, and high impact on weak protection
7- skill for using protection: How to place three rpís and be safe, limit of stopper, hex, tricam and mechanics.
8- physical skill: strength to rest and look to anticipate the next movement. To go to see and return at a rest. Strength to climb multi pitch in a day
9-mental skill: capacity to stay many hours or days on the rock. To be able to rest at the belay and to be able to understand a situation even if we are very tired.
Those are some important skill in trad climbing, maybe some of them need to be clarify or better describe. It is my question.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: DWT on January 03, 2013, 06:33:50 AM
Happy New Year DEAD HORSE! ;)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: ed_esmond on January 03, 2013, 07:52:20 AM
Today, every people know the distinction between cross country skiing and alpine skiing. And nobody will say stupid thing like... (stuff removed for clarity....) It is my question.

i'm not a "nobody," i'm a "somebody!"  and don't you forget that...

and trust me, i've got a lot of "stupid thing(s)" to say:

"why do they call it "alpine" skiing when most who do it have never even been to the "alps?"

likewise, does one do "cross country" skiing in the "country?" (although, technically, the "alps" could be considered the "country.")

if you're doing it in a park is it "cross park" skiing?

it is my question to ask: when i slide down the bunny run at the local resort on my "cross country" skiis, what am i doing?

and speaking of safety and ethics:  there have been at least a dozen flat-landers rescued this last week in the killington/pico area after they skiied "off-piste" and got woefully lost... the local authorities were rather "pisted-off" at them.

lucky eddie


edited for punctuation (wouldn't want to be hard to understand...)

Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: carp on January 03, 2013, 09:10:36 AM
Why oh why did I even bother reading this?!! :-[

Isn't the definition of insanity "trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?"

I think I'm going to now go ponder the difference between baked and fried bacon...

Leadership, risk, ethics...

Hmmmmmm....
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: M_Sprague on January 03, 2013, 09:15:04 AM
Baked is better, Carp.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: JBro on January 03, 2013, 09:45:14 AM
You guys think she's an alpine skier or cross-country?

(http://i49.tinypic.com/wgyw6q.jpg)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: carp on January 03, 2013, 09:54:58 AM
What... Uh... er... What was I saying? Oi!
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: carp on January 03, 2013, 09:56:21 AM
Definitely a back-country skier...
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: Jeff on January 03, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
JBrochu: Please cite you sources! ;)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: carp on January 03, 2013, 10:24:36 AM
Hmmmm..trad or sport?
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: Jeff on January 03, 2013, 10:41:13 AM
SPORTY! 8)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: meclimber on January 03, 2013, 11:09:15 AM
could be trad, cause I'd go after that with limited protection! >:(
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: M_Sprague on January 03, 2013, 11:18:18 AM
Better wear a helmet for when your wife finds out!

That picture must have been taken while she was hiking out to Greens.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: JBro on January 03, 2013, 11:39:39 AM
Hmmmm..trad or sport?


I wonder if she would like to try climbing on my new indoor wall?


(http://www.basezero.com.au/images/Page1_r5_c4.gif)


edit: my wall is ribbed for her pleasure.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: tinker on January 03, 2013, 12:30:28 PM
I wonder if these fine ladies are aware of the x position and its varied uses? ;)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: steve weitzler on January 03, 2013, 01:12:16 PM
Nice Moguls!! :-\ :-\
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: Jeff on January 03, 2013, 02:30:08 PM
  quote: That picture must have been taken while she was hiking out to Greens. unquote

Lucky black flies! :)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: DLottmann on January 03, 2013, 08:41:21 PM
Finally a Lucky Luke (Champ) post worth reading!
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: JBro on January 04, 2013, 10:14:41 AM
This


Today, every people know the distinction between cross country skiing and alpine skiing. And nobody will say stupid thing like we both are on sky, weir winter equipment, etc. the difference is obvious, more than in our sport.


+ This


(http://www.schnalstal.com/smartedit/images/news/2011_telemark_opening_italy.jpg)


= Champs head


(http://highfivetothat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/gil-head-explode-again.gif)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: lucky luke on January 04, 2013, 10:50:05 AM
This


Today, every people know the distinction between cross country skiing and alpine skiing. And nobody will say stupid thing like we both are on sky, weir winter equipment, etc. the difference is obvious, more than in our sport.


+ This


(http://www.schnalstal.com/smartedit/images/news/2011_telemark_opening_italy.jpg)

Telemark turns is an old technique not in use today by most people. We can imagine people at that time who had to travel accross long and steep hill using snowplough turn on that ground. As the people become more aware of telemark, a new ethic was used to go downhill. The last step of the evolution was our new rigid both and fixation just use to go down hill.

In climbing, I can thing that we are at the telemark time to make the distinction between two kind of practice. It is easy to imagine that going with alpine equipment in a trail going up and down is ackward. I just can hope that beginer will understand that going to and adventure area with bolt and gym technique can be dangerous. 
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: Jeff on January 04, 2013, 11:49:56 AM
Note to Luke: the telemark gear pictured is state of the art and used to tour the back country, ski in resorts, rip steep couloirs, ski powder in the trees, skin uphill and compete in big mountain free skiing comps as well as in the park and pipe--it all depends on the desire and skill of the user-- kind of like multi-discipline climbing!! Let's stop trying to reintroduce segregation! :-*
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: frik on January 04, 2013, 01:08:46 PM
Luke; your retarded stylings are like poetry.....
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: triguy on January 04, 2013, 04:33:04 PM
If you stop feeding the dog from the table he will eventually stop begging......
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: JakeDatc on January 04, 2013, 05:38:21 PM
someone should tell the 10s of thousands of free heelers they are using an old outdated technique ;)   

go out west and get smoked by a tele skier going past you at a million mph and say it is old and outdated lol   guys have serious skills. 

trad is old and outdated bolt everything woo!!   gridbolt champ's house
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: DLottmann on January 04, 2013, 06:04:10 PM
I am amazed he keeps trying... and equally amazed I keep reading....
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on January 04, 2013, 08:06:50 PM
I have been sking for  45 years now and to me it is all just sking. Weather i am ripping lift service on telle gear, skinning up to smugs to climb or doing laps on the golf course it is just sking :P
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on January 04, 2013, 08:10:31 PM
Wow just looked at the previous page... she better not be climbing new england  in black fly season :o :-\
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: kenreville on January 04, 2013, 08:59:30 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a thread anywhere get hi-jacked so bad.
That means something.

Yeah Lucky Luke, it should mean something to you.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: carp on January 04, 2013, 09:03:18 PM
What I wanna know is how anyone in their right mind would even think of returning to the OP after the beautiful, wonderful, scrumptious sidetrack that this thread had successfully taken? What is wrong with you people?  :'(
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: strandman on January 05, 2013, 05:16:53 PM
Better wear a helmet for when your wife finds out!

That picture must have been taken while she was hiking out to Greens.

Mark- I guesss you found a "partner" to go in the woods with..shit I'm coming back
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: ed_esmond on January 06, 2013, 04:57:45 PM
...get smoked by a tele skier going past you at a million mph

i always heard "telemark" was norwegian for "hey guys, wait for me!!"

(http://www.schnalstal.com/smartedit/images/news/2011_telemark_opening_italy.jpg)

JB: major props for killing this thread in only two pages, well done!

however i'm disappointed in the above photo... 

i expected you to post a pic with a hot, 1/2-nekked telle chick doing her thing and instead we get some frenchy looking guy wearing flashy, euro trash neon looking like the mid-80's... uggh!

ed e
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: JBro on January 06, 2013, 09:58:28 PM
Sorry man. I think telemark must be Norwegian for "sausage party" or my Googling skills are lacking.

Consolation alpine ski pic...

(http://www.cyrusisboard.com/uploads/bikini-skiing-snowboarding-9.jpg)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: tinker on January 06, 2013, 10:28:15 PM
 I think we can all see the differing ethic between the redhead alpine skier and the blonde tele women just by the look on their faces.  For me it is clear.   :)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: lucky luke on January 07, 2013, 12:01:40 AM
Yeah Lucky Luke, it should mean something to you.

Asb I have a facial recognition problem, I don't know who you are and I don't mind. As my first point was:
Quote
1-skill for  leadership: Protection of the party against any danger.
I understand that the thread was voluntarily hi-jacked because the protection of the party is not important for you. Or that your leadership is not to protect the people.

What hurt me more is that accident is very difficult to place in categories. For example, the results is the same between an accident  whit a driver who fall a sleep an past a stop and whit a bad driver. the result is going to be the same: people are going to be injure.

As a leader, I care more of the safety of my party than to have fun. Fun is an extra when every thing go well and you can try chalenging things.

I know what that means: the use of drill was banish in state park, there is a cliff close by the owner, climbing is not considered in the same way as hunting when you are in private propreity, people are not as much attrack by the sport, less people stop at the bottom of cathedral to see the climber, the mt washington is technically close at the first sign of wind... and people who are injure are not injure because they made mistake, but because they read that they can trad climb with self belaying in a 5.9-5.10 and think that they can try a 5.7 at canon without all the skill describe above. 



 
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: ed_esmond on January 07, 2013, 08:00:17 AM
I think we can all see the differing ethic between the redhead alpine skier and the blonde tele women just by the look on their faces.  For me it is clear.   :)

Tinker,

that's more what i was thinking, but with billions and billions of photos on the web it's hard to believe there are no tele-betty "action" shots.

and, those new shaped skis make skiing sooo much more "fun."

ed e

ps JB: not bad...
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: M_Sprague on January 07, 2013, 09:12:36 AM
There is lots of Devil"s work in this thread. I am going to have to go to church or flagellate myself or something.

On second thought, I think I will have to put a little more Cognac in my morning coffee.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: old_school on January 07, 2013, 10:06:51 AM
There is lots of Devil"s work in this thread. I am going to have to go to church or flagellate myself or something.

On second thought, I think I will have to put a little more Cognac in my morning coffee.

on my second trip up the climber's trail at cathedral on my knees praying to the Trad Gods that my eyes and soul be cleansed of this evil. Flagellations will resume with pink spandex and my 1990's petzl dogbones...oh the humanity
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: JBro on January 07, 2013, 10:45:04 AM
Anybody watch the games this weekend?

(http://m5.paperblog.com/i/35/358701/seductive-houston-texans-cheerleader-L-SDMTqU.jpeg)
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: xcrag_corex on January 07, 2013, 11:11:05 AM
I think its important to get back on topic here. I fear for your safety too guys. It is very important to know how to properly place and use protection especially in some of the potentially dangerous situations mentioned above.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: M_Sprague on January 07, 2013, 11:34:37 AM
For some of the older gents here, you may have to add the steps: Take the little blue pill, and: Place oxygen mask over mouth  :P
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: tinker on January 07, 2013, 12:38:43 PM
For some of the older gents here, you may have to add the steps: Take the little blue pill, and: Place oxygen mask over mouth  :P
 
If you use the blue pill is that aid F!@#ing as opposed to sport?  IMO the use of oxygen takes away a little bit from the purity and style of the endeavour.  I am not knocking those who use it, I am not anyone's judge.  I find it worthy to note that our reference bible on this subject, Freedom of the Karma Sutra says nothing of oxygen or Viagra.  So well there you have it!  On another tangent (I ask this for a friend)  Is the use of certain enlargement type pumps or pill supplements considered cheating(kind of like using a stick clip)?  Pretty sure that falls under aid F*@$ing not sport ???
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: Admin Al on January 07, 2013, 12:48:08 PM
considering that the ice is now IN, I would have figured you guys would actually be out there doing some climbing... [LOL]
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: Admin Al on January 07, 2013, 12:48:40 PM
Anybody watch the games this weekend?

(http://m5.paperblog.com/i/35/358701/seductive-houston-texans-cheerleader-L-SDMTqU.jpeg)

oh my goodness gracious me...
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: tinker on January 07, 2013, 12:56:36 PM
considering that the ice is now IN, I would have figured you guys would actually be out there doing some climbing... [LOL]
Someone has to pay the bills.  Hope to get some this afterrnoon.  Ice climbing that is.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: pappy on January 07, 2013, 01:20:31 PM
For some of the older gents here, you may have to add the steps: Take the little blue pill, and: Place oxygen mask over mouth  :P

I resemble that. Besides, it's well known that oxygen deprivation enhances the high, so fu punks, we are having more fun. And the blue pill is definitely sport f#@king: only enjoyed by incompetents and posers.

+1 for xcrag.
Title: Re: trad climbing versus cross country and alpine skiing
Post by: xcrag_corex on January 07, 2013, 01:57:34 PM
Just trying to do my part. I have a love for my climbing community and I just don't want to see them all turn into AIDS climbers. ;)