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General => Rock Climbing: Sport => Topic started by: sneoh on November 19, 2012, 08:21:01 pm

Title: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: sneoh on November 19, 2012, 08:21:01 pm
https://www.facebook.com/RrgFixedGearEthicsInitiative

It is a conversation worth having, not just for Rumney but all NE crags that have fixed/perma draws or "cleaning biners". 

RRG had its close calls in 2011 and we had ours at Rumney in 2012 (Man Overboard incident).  Be safe people, "do the right" thing" by removing/replacing manky fixed draws/biners, and take responsibility for your own safety.  I will be carrying a few steel biners with me to Rumney beginning next season.  Steel biners can cost as little as $10/ea (same price as Petzl Spirit) and last significantly longer but NOT FOREVER, so pay attention!

Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: M_Sprague on November 19, 2012, 09:15:40 pm
It is an important topic, Soon. Personally, I think perma draws should be kept to an absolute minimum for aesthetic reasons, but also so thier condition can be checked regularly and kept in good shape. I don't give a damn about the ethics of them as far as the convenience factor, in fact I like the convenience, but for those other reasons, they drive me nuts.

I think people need to feel a lot more comfortable removing worn looking gear, even if they donít have a replacement handy. It is much better that somebody has to lower off a route half way up because a draw is missing and they didnít see to bring their own than they fall to their death because their rope gets cut.

Iíll use your link in that thread on MP.

Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: sneoh on November 19, 2012, 09:34:03 pm
Personally, I think perma draws should be kept to an absolute minimum for aesthetic reasons, but also so thier condition can be checked regularly and kept in good shape.
Exactly how I feel Mark; gave you a +1.
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: strandman on November 26, 2012, 06:54:52 pm
I remember a Brit (sorry name) at AF aaround '88 or so   the fixed draws (first time I had ever seen them)

"shit. somebody had a real epic"
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: pappy on November 27, 2012, 09:57:29 am
I remember a Brit (sorry name) at AF aaround '88 or so   the fixed draws (first time I had ever seen them)

"shit. somebody had a real epic"

 :D

yeah, when I was growing up it was just understood that anything left on a climb was booty. Fixed draws are a blight; if the sport weenies actually had to take their own draws and clip the bolts they might find those old .12s and .13s are suddenly a lot harder, and a bit more like climbing.
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: frik on November 27, 2012, 12:30:06 pm
I have no problem removing fixed draws/gear wherever my extension ladder can reach.... now you are saying some of them are manky?

Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: Admin Al on November 27, 2012, 01:24:49 pm
yeah, when I was growing up it was just understood that anything left on a climb was booty. Fixed draws are a blight; if the sport weenies actually had to take their own draws and clip the bolts they might find those old .12s and .13s are suddenly a lot harder, and a bit more like climbing.

LOL
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: lucky luke on November 27, 2012, 10:37:09 pm
LOL

I asked myself: should i say some thing means like: edlinger would had place his sling as he climb, he was not a winnie...You already have bolt, if you place sling to be able to do the route, maybe you can place an elevator?

And I say no. I don't like when you say that 5.9 is for beginer, to show how a father most teach trad to a 12 years child, etc.

So, I appologize... but I hope you will consider that most trad people don't climb to make hard route and few people climb 5.10 steady or 5.11. But many like a 5.7 route and have to learn his safety before to be able to climb a grade over without knowing how to protect themselve.

The two best compliment I had in trad is: It is easy...for him! I was climbing ventilator. And he think to protect himselve for a safe fall, maybe long,  before making a move. I was climbing fun house 
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: sneoh on November 28, 2012, 12:33:41 am
I have no idea what LL/Champ is trying to say.

Fixed draws are a necessary evil on some super steep sport routes; a number of this kind of routes are found at Rumney, Shagg Pond, New River (Kaymor and Coliseum), and Red River (Motherlode, Bob Marley, etc).  Sometimes, they are placed on super popular routes to "keep the line of climbers moving", like Techno at Rumney.  Personally I think convenience alone is not a strong enough reason to put fixed draws on a route.  However, I am willing to go along with the local ethics and community consensus on this point.
Mark had said maybe we should limit the number of fixed draws at Rumney to 100, I think 80 to 100 is about right.  This number may sound huge until you start estimating the total number of bolts currently up at Rumney.  Also, some steep routes may only need two fixed draws to make cleaning much less of an epic.

Relax people, plenty of .12 and .13 sport routes all up and down the East Coast still require one to hang one's own draws for a send.  And, although the media often glosses over the fact, people should recognize that redpoint is significantly harder than pinkpoint, especially if the route is long, pumpy, and have in excess of 6 or 7 bolts. 
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: frik on November 28, 2012, 10:29:18 am
80 - 100 ....What are you nuts? That's obviously crazy. It should be the number of QD's that cannot easily be reached from the ground via a nice extension ladder.
GD quick draw Nazis!

PS: I totally know what champ is saying.... i have broken the code.
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: strandman on November 28, 2012, 10:38:44 am
frik- what type of ladder do you use ??? I really like Gorilla ladders, nice and stable.
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: JakeDatc on November 29, 2012, 11:29:36 am
I think <80 is possible with careful choosing what bolts get draws.   You don't need the WHOLE route to be fixed on most of the routes.  ie  fix the top 2-3 on Techno would allow the bottom ones to be cleaned easily while being lowered off and still keep traffic moving.  same with the Man Overboard roof     sure routes like Predator and Orangahang would still need to be fully fixed but they are the exceptions. 

can someone please video frik carrying a ladder to Waimea.. it would be hilarious
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: sneoh on November 29, 2012, 11:37:43 am
Yeah, Jake, fewer than 80 would be great.  Actually there is little need to fix the last two draws on OrangaHang.  They are easily acessible when lowering from the anchaors.  That is how we swap out the worn rope-side biners on both draws past year.

In all honesty and personally, I do not see why Techno needs to have any fixed .... Social Outcast probably gets 60 to 70% of the traffic of Techno (I estimate) and nothing is fixed on SO.  (One could even argue that maybe the 1st two bolts on SO should have fixed draws so that cleaning on lower is less of an adventure.)
Title: Re: Rising awareness about manky fixed draws
Post by: JakeDatc on November 29, 2012, 11:56:32 am
Wouldn't you swing back pretty far if you down cleaned the top 2 bolts of O-hang? i just wonder about the rope rubbing across the top. 

true.. probably a lot of waimea could be cleaned up pretty easily.