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General => Rock Climbing: Trad => Topic started by: dp on September 20, 2010, 03:04:13 PM

Title: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: dp on September 20, 2010, 03:04:13 PM
I know that there has almost always been a nest on hotter than hell but I was told that there was a large nest halfway up inferno from the tree covered ledge, I love thoes two climbs but I am very allergic to getting stung, anyone have any info??? thanks. DP
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: perswig on September 20, 2010, 06:10:30 PM
Can't speak to Inferno, but this is clearly an active time/weather cycle for the little varmints.  I was stung last year this time hiking over the S. Buttress (we did HTH and P2+3 of Inferno, didn't see any on the climb or ledges).  I also saw several jigging around while on either SOH or Pathfinder last Thursday, probably Pathfinder as it was mid-afternoon.  They were not very aggressive, plus I've got a yellow rope and orange helmet - seems to attract them?
Dale
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 21, 2010, 08:43:13 AM
Did Hotter than Hell to Inferno two days ago and did not see any nests or wasps... it was warm too...

Do you carry an Epi-Pen?
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: ELM on September 21, 2010, 08:55:22 AM
Dp...how's the toe ?
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: steve weitzler on September 21, 2010, 09:57:53 AM
I vote to cut down all the trees that have hornet nests in them. We can't have climbers getting stung. After all we own the forests cause we are climbers.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 21, 2010, 10:43:09 AM
We must leave the trees with hornets because they ae then protected. :(O A bolt was added to HTH after the f/a, that caused the hornets nest
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: steve weitzler on September 21, 2010, 11:22:03 AM
Well in that case while we are cutting down the trees with nests we might as well chop the offending bolt. Because as climbers it is our god given right. Get the chisels John.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 21, 2010, 11:24:32 AM
YEAH ! "A chopping we will go, a chopping we will go......" It's only been 29 years, but so what  ;)
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: dp on September 21, 2010, 05:06:26 PM
the toe is healing well but I have missed out on lots climbing and yeah I carry two epi pens, I am very allergic to yellow jackets, hornets, bees...... oh well gotto go some how, DP
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: perswig on September 22, 2010, 12:56:57 PM
Just curious.  Which bolt was added to HTH after the FA? 
I seem to skip a bolt at the far right of the initial traverse (maybe not even on the climb but a sucker bolt from a neighbor?), but there is some reasonable gear that I could see allowing a hardman or -woman to skip one or two of the bolts. 
Dale
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 22, 2010, 01:07:01 PM
The bolt at the crux, the one that protects the awkward mantle move into the little pod high on the route. Webster's guide gives the history I believe. I think Matt Peer, the FAist, was drilling all on lead (free on lead) and was too gripped to place the crux bolt on his FA, so he returned and added it later "much to the chagrin of local hardmen" or something like that.

Glad Matt had the insight to retro-bolt it as I doubt it would see much traffic sans the crux bolt. Neighbor "Cold Day in Hell" is a harder climb, 5.10, but more protected and sees more traffic.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 22, 2010, 01:09:09 PM
Oh, and speaking of that bolt, I have caught two partners on their first leader falls on that bolt! This past Sunday was the second one. With rope stretch it is about a 10 footer. Without that bolt it would be a forty footer.  :o
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: perswig on September 22, 2010, 05:39:08 PM
Yep, I kinda LIKE that bolt.  Most recent trip up, those moves into the pod were running wet and I was some glad to clip it.
Cold Day's on my fall list (wait, that sounds wrong...).
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 22, 2010, 05:52:01 PM
The only problem with Cold Day is that it impacts several routes that "never get done" BS. Matt pussed out to local opinion on HTH. Should another bolt been placed on Children's P1 'cause the mantle is "scairey"
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 22, 2010, 07:51:34 PM
The only problem with Cold Day is that it impacts several routes that "never get done" BS. Matt pussed out to local opinion on HTH. Should another bolt been placed on Children's P1 'cause the mantle is "scairey"

I've only led Children's twice but isn't there a bolt right below the mantle? I don't remember it being run out, just thin/slippery...

So... Webster's account verbatim:

"Matt Peer & Craig Stemley made the first ascent on May 29, 1980, placing all the bolts on the lead. Thinking he'd probably fall off the crux move if he stopped to place another bolt, Matt went for it, successfully. The local consensus was that the unprotected crux runout should stay, as that was how the route was first led, but eventually Peer decided to add the bolt on rappel- "much to the dismay of the resident hardmen"- but to the greater benefit of most climbers!"

So here a first ascentionist who with a modest ego felt the climb would be better with a bolt at the crux. I am guessing he could have easily hung on a hook there during the FA as it seems to many of you that is so much more acceptable than bolting on rappel, but that was not his style. I believe the rest of the bolts were driven from stances, which is the only true "on lead" method IMO.

Regardless, saying he "pussed out", when he actually fired the crux sans bolt is a bit of an unwarranted insult to someone who contributed a really nice moderate to that area of Whitehorse, especially since it seems like "local opinion" was against him if Webster's history is correct.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 22, 2010, 08:12:56 PM
NO- I'm saying he pussed out 'cause he bent to opinion and added the bolt. I know  Matt and he did create a fine route. I'm just saying that to add a bolt to a route because people say you should is BS.
I''d have to add many a bolt- Should Bit's n Pieces have another bolt ? FUCK NO-Don't like it ? Don't do it
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 22, 2010, 10:35:53 PM
NO- I'm saying he pussed out 'cause he bent to opinion and added the bolt. I know  Matt and he did create a fine route. I'm just saying that to add a bolt to a route because people say you should is BS.
I''d have to add many a bolt- Should Bit's n Pieces have another bolt ? FUCK NO-Don't like it ? Don't do it

I guess he was influenced by the other "local consensus". Or he gave in to popular opinion, which I like. To add a bolt your own FA climb, to create a climb that is still challenging and will get done and enjoyed by others vrs. sitting unclimbed for 20+ years as an ego trophy in the back of someone's mind... well, I have my opinion on which is better.

Has Bits & Pieces seen many ascents? I've looked at it but run out 5.11 face isn't for me, so I probably will never do it. Plenty of fun rock out there so no biggie...
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 23, 2010, 10:00:16 AM
Actually Bit's was quite popular for a while, not so much now i guess. Some have said that the start of HTH is "spicey"- should that have a bolt as well ?

Like you said , no biggie, but good for argument
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: perswig on September 23, 2010, 11:22:06 AM
Can we also chisel a placement on CC's staircase so I don't pee my pants again getting to the pin?
Thanks in advance.

Dale
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: Old Mans Ghost on September 23, 2010, 11:51:02 AM
Quote
"Matt Peer & Craig Stemley made the first ascent on May 29, 1980, placing all the bolts on the lead. Thinking he'd probably fall off the crux move if he stopped to place another bolt, Matt went for it, successfully. The local consensus was that the unprotected crux runout should stay, as that was how the route was first led, but eventually Peer decided to add the bolt on rappel- "much to the dismay of the resident hardmen"- but to the greater benefit of most climbers!"

Wow, the N Conway hardmen have been experiencing tightness in their panties over how other people put their routes in since way back in 1980. I thought it was a more recent phenomenom with the advent of sport climbing.

Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: Dave on September 23, 2010, 12:19:05 PM
NO- I'm saying he pussed out 'cause he bent to opinion and added the bolt. I know  Matt and he did create a fine route. I'm just saying that to add a bolt to a route because people say you should is BS.
I''d have to add many a bolt- Should Bit's n Pieces have another bolt ? FUCK NO-Don't like it ? Don't do it

Bit's n Pieces is fine the way it is! It is certainly one of the scariest routes I have done.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: The other tomcat on September 23, 2010, 01:08:31 PM
Ditto,one of the scariest routes I haven't done,left some skin though...

Matt bolted the crux of his accord,the local pressure was not to.Would not be popular at all in original state.The start is bolted now John...lol...

Children's is fine the way it is.We got beta for that one at the Big Pickle,left trending dike with bolts,we didn't know anything about dikes,so we started up the first left trending one we saw,friggin hard it was too.Turned out to be Last Tango.Childrens seemed a lot easier when we found it.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: perswig on September 23, 2010, 02:54:14 PM
Tom, before your edit I thought you were searching for a Democratic fundraiser staffed by lesbians in the construction industry.  ;D

Children's is certainly fine, I just throw up in my mouth a little until I clip the pin.  And I used lockers on the first bolt.
Bwaak, I'm chicken.

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff69/perswig/2nd%20album/026.jpg)
Is this the Oscar .11?  Nice.

Dale
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: The other tomcat on September 23, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
Ahem...yes...well...

That's the Oscar ten that seems like an eleven,at least till I found an easier solution.Boy iz that a nice route.

Everybody hated my quickdraw with a locker as a second,but Tradchick loves it now she's on point.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 23, 2010, 03:17:28 PM
The start is bolted now John...lol...

Children's is fine the way it is.We got beta for that one at the Big Pickle,left trending dike with bolts,we didn't know anything about dikes,so we started up the first left trending one we saw,friggin hard it was too.Turned out to be Last Tango.Childrens seemed a lot easier when we found it.

So where was the original 1st bolt on HTH? I thought just the crux bolt was added. The 1st bolt as it stands now is about 20 feet up, after pulling up onto a little nose piece, with good gear just below. Was that not the original pro?

CC is definitely fine the way it is in my opinion. It really is only run-out in the 5.7 bits. The 5.9 moves are pretty well protected though I get the same puke feeling at the mantel others do.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: tradchick on September 23, 2010, 04:52:58 PM
Good to see that guys get that puke feeling too...I thought it was just a chick thing.  ;)
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: dpen on September 23, 2010, 07:30:29 PM
Quote
Is this the Oscar .11?  Nice.

Dale

Dale,  that's Oscar's Last Stand....Nice route

Dave
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 23, 2010, 09:04:34 PM
So funny- I did the 3rd ascent of HTH and it seemed fine- Trust me I was barely  9+ leader. This may lead to the ""popular" thread which is BS

Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: OldEric on September 23, 2010, 10:02:48 PM
We're going around in circles.  We already have established that a route can be deemed "popular" because it gets done  a lot (i.e. Parking Lot wall routes at Rumney) or because it is aspired to be done a lot but is typically a once in a life time thing.  Hopefully this crowd goes by the mostly by the second criteria and doesn't advocate bolting things into submission so they fall into the first category.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: sneoh on September 23, 2010, 10:13:32 PM
What a party pooper, Eric!  I have been enjoying the banter quite a bit.
So you think Chloe's at Parking Lot Wall might be a bit overbolted.  Say it ain't so :)
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 23, 2010, 10:18:24 PM
So funny- I did the 3rd ascent of HTH and it seemed fine- Trust me I was barely  9+ leader. This may lead to the ""popular" thread which is BS

What this is, I don't even know. No mention as to whether any other bolt other than the one that was listed as added in the guidebook was added, yet you are creating an issue/debate regardless.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 23, 2010, 10:27:47 PM
We're going around in circles.  We already have established that a route can be deemed "popular" because it gets done  a lot (i.e. Parking Lot wall routes at Rumney) or because it is aspired to be done a lot but is typically a once in a life time thing.  Hopefully this crowd goes by the mostly by the second criteria and doesn't advocate bolting things into submission so they fall into the first category.

This post as well is hard to decipher... "hopefully this crowd goes by the mostly by the... so they fall into the first category."  ??? ??? ???

You say a route can be deemed "popular" because it gets done a lot? Ummm... that is the definition of popular I think. That's like stating a route can be deemed "obscure" because no one seeks it out.

A route is not "popular" because it is a "once in a life time thing". That, my friend, is a "rarity".

No one in this thread has advocated bolting into submission. I climbed 4 new routes at Humphrey's today that all had excessive bolts on them. 5.7 to 5.9 climbs that were over protected at 5.3 moves and under protected at 5.6 moves.

No consistency in thinking about where to place a bolt, whether from stance, hook, or rappel. Some of them are like throwing darts at a a dart board in terms of bolt placement.

My stance, which I doubt will change is this.

1) If you are putting up a new route bolt it for the grade it is under a "PG" mindset. There are enough bold R and X routes for people to test themselves on. Sit back in your rocker at 80 plus years knowing your cool route is getting done rather than gathering lichen.

2) If the FAist wants to retro-bolt their own route, let them. It was their "piece of art" and contribution, and hindsight often is better than onsight.

3) 5.12 climbers putting up new 5.10 x routes suck.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: M_Sprague on September 23, 2010, 11:42:08 PM
..and 5.10 climbers trying to put up 5.12X climbs suck even more  ;D
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 24, 2010, 06:36:06 AM
If your new rout is so over bolted that it feels like a top rope you fcked it up.
If it's so underbolted that no one ever climbs it then you also fucked it up.
 One thing that is certain is that if you intend to commit bolt to stone you should think it through very carefully and leave behind a climb that is a contribution to the climbing community and not an eyesore.

A single rusty bolt that never gets clipped in the middle of what should have been a 5 star route is just as much of an eysore as a dummed down overbolted botch job.

Interesting how some of the big names can screw stuff up worse than the nobodys.. Tom Rosecans stuffed a horrid squeeze job in between Little finger and Screaming meany on Rojers rock and then had the gall to rant in the guide book about how the nature of the climbs on the slab need to be preserved ::)
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 24, 2010, 07:22:27 AM
I completely agree with tradman's points...
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: OldEric on September 24, 2010, 09:06:05 AM

A route is not "popular" because it is a "once in a life time thing". That, my friend, is a "rarity".


So I guess the Bachar - Yerian isn't patricularily popular or memorable because it doesn't have a steady stream of ascents?  Nothing to reiminsece about if you do it.  But your sanatized dumbed down so the masses can play on it "masterpiece" is surely something to be proud of?
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: M_Sprague on September 24, 2010, 09:45:17 AM
I'm not sure "dumbed down" is really a good term to use for adequately protecting routes when using fixed gear. One could readily make the argument that to bolt a route and leave huge dangerous fall potential is an act of "dumbness".
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: OldEric on September 24, 2010, 10:11:58 AM
I'm not sure "dumbed down" is really a good term to use for adequately protecting routes when using fixed gear. One could readily make the argument that to bolt a route and leave huge dangerous fall potential is an act of "dumbness".


Well in that case I think the dumbness is more with the person who chooses to get on the route (with the huge dangerous fall potential) regardless of whether they are up to the challenge and inherent risk.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: frik on September 24, 2010, 10:28:08 AM
Howabout not dumbing down the english language (i know i'll regret writing that). Yes the BY does not get alot of ascents, that makes it not popular. It may be memorable, and a great route but that has nothing to do with popularity in this case. 



Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: M_Sprague on September 24, 2010, 10:41:51 AM
Agree. A route does not have to be popular. I do think if it is a really aesthetic line that others will want to climb, that it is a shame to hog it for your  exercise  in overcoming fear.

To Eric - Well, that is why it's nice there is room for many different aesthetic approaches to climbing. Some like the thrill of overcoming danger, like the people who get off on laying in the middle of the highway with cars whizzing by. Others like the movement, exploration and beauty of the rock, like hikers and dancers, and all the shades between. Some danger seems to heighten the senses. Personally, I like high balling for that feeling, but once I tie into a rope and start placing bolts, I like my routes to be reasonably safe.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 24, 2010, 10:54:35 AM
Shall we start the popular vs. quality  debate again ?
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: M_Sprague on September 24, 2010, 11:11:03 AM
(http://www.starcelebritys.com/wp-content/uploads/Paris-Hilton.jpg) vs (http://northcentralcollege.edu/Images/pio/Madeleine%20Albright%20book%20cms.jpg)
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: The other tomcat on September 24, 2010, 11:13:37 AM
OK,I'll go first.Hotter than Hell is a high quality,popular route.Discuss.


Nothing happened.....so I'll throw gas on the fire.....


Hotter than Hell is where the first pitch of Inferno should have been all along. Cold Day in Hell crosses some other lines that did not catch on.Cold Day in Hell is very popular.If you connect it to the Tranquility fingercrack it makes a stellar route a bit harder than Hotter than Inferno.If you want to wet your pants a little at the end of the day you can continue up the original finish bulge.


Edit for Mr Sprague: Those are both Cold Day in Hell....
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DGoguen on September 24, 2010, 11:26:46 AM
Judging by the route photos above,provided by Mark, I'd have to say the left photo is Hotter than Hell and the one on the right is Cold Day in Hell.
I can't quite make out the finger crack but I think I spy a hornets nest near the obvious bulge.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: steve weitzler on September 24, 2010, 11:37:30 AM
"A route as a piece of art?" I don't know but they always look like a piece of rock to me.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: Old Mans Ghost on September 24, 2010, 11:41:40 AM
Judging by the route photos above,provided by Mark, I'd have to say the left photo is Hotter than Hell and the one on the right is Cold Day in Hell.
I can't quite make out the finger crack but I think I spy a hornets nest near the obvious bulge.

All I know is if I was gonna squeeze a route in between them I would certainly be keeping as far to the left as possible. 
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: tradchick on September 24, 2010, 12:18:49 PM
LOL!  Sprague digs plastic...better stay in the rock gym Mark.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: M_Sprague on September 24, 2010, 12:48:25 PM
Actually, I didn't say that. Ideally both would come on a date. Madeline would stimulate my brain untill my mind was blown, and then hopefully I would leave in Paris' limo for Champagne and a bubble bath...No sense being narrow minded!

My point was that there are two differant aesthetics and each may be valid at the right time.

I find women with high quality brains atractive, but Paris does have a rather infectious smile  :D
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: OldEric on September 24, 2010, 01:09:32 PM
, but Paris does have a rather infectious smile  :D

Probabaly not the only infectious part.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: Old Mans Ghost on September 24, 2010, 01:35:30 PM
Probabaly not the only infectious part.

Definetely don't want to climb that without adequate protection.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: M_Sprague on September 24, 2010, 01:41:35 PM
Let's be gentlemanly now. What are a few cooties after all?


See what happened after Weitzler entered the conversation?
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: Old Mans Ghost on September 24, 2010, 01:48:06 PM
Just give her a good scrub with a wire brush and you will be fine.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: sneoh on September 24, 2010, 02:17:03 PM
Wow, I go for lunch and errand and the thread took off on quite a tanget!
The natives are restless and feeling frisky, must be Friday or something like that.  :)
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 24, 2010, 05:52:00 PM
Back on the more interesting topic (at least to me)  I see the Bacar Yerin as a pretty legitamet classic for several reasons.
#1 it gets climbed.
#2 lots of people aspire to climb it or at least have climbed it.
#3. See #1. It gets climbed.

Even if it did not get climbed it would be a non issue as they have so much rock out there that there is pleanty of room for eveyone to play in the sandbox.

What I see as a travesty is the climb that is bolted poorly and never climbed. No one even wants to climb it. That folks is a real waste of rock.

On the other hand  annother form of travesty is Tom Rosecans  squeeze retro bolt job between Screaming Meany and little finger that completly changes the nature of both climbs..  Part of the charm of Little finger is that there are no fixed belays other than a single fixed pin on P1. The new leader was commited to getting up that climb on their own power or leaving expensive gear behind.  Now climbers on little finger get sucked 10ft left to bolted belays. Screaming Meany is a commiting but populer 5.8 25ft left of Little finger. Once you were out there you were commited to some fairly serious fun climbing. Now it is impossible to Climb screaming Meany without clipping the 1st 2 bolts of Toms retro Squeeze job.  The 1st of those retro bolts is Ok in my book as it draws you into the direct line that was often avoided pre bolt. The 2nd retro bolt is a pure travesty that draws you off rt and just generaly messes up the feel of the 1st pitch of screaming Meany.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: DLottmann on September 24, 2010, 10:24:38 PM
Yep, popularity = it gets climbed. If it does not get climbed it is not popular, even if you think many people are "aspiring" to climb it.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 24, 2010, 10:55:58 PM
Annother thought is how many folks actually WANT to climb it VS those who want to be know as haveing climbed it ;)
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: Admin Al on September 25, 2010, 08:05:49 AM
What does all this have to do with HTH or Inferno?  Hmm  ::)
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 25, 2010, 10:28:06 AM
It doesn't Al- It's about Paris and Madeline
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: dp on September 25, 2010, 03:22:34 PM
All this over some bee's???
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: steve weitzler on September 25, 2010, 04:05:51 PM
Easy Mark. I just said routes like like rock to me!!! As for Paris........
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: strandman on September 25, 2010, 08:25:09 PM
Now we decide between climbs-

Paris - looks good, well drilled and popular

Madeline- A bit crusty, interesting and somewhat dated.

This makes things MUCH easier.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: steve weitzler on September 26, 2010, 09:45:26 AM
Leave it to John to put things in perspective.
Title: Re: hornets nest on inferno and hotter than hell?
Post by: cstemely on August 07, 2012, 01:06:15 AM
With all the wind and salt that gets spread on the roads,
 I thought those dopey little bolts would be all gone by now
WOW still a scandel. Why no sport routes on cannon yet?