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General => Rock Climbing: Sport => Topic started by: lucky luke on November 03, 2013, 10:02:50 AM

Title: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 03, 2013, 10:02:50 AM
Quote
"fear is the root of many climber's limitations [...] in sport climbing, the focus is not on the protection of the route, but rather, the physical movement and strength of climber.[...] On most sport route, there is little realistic fear of injury [...]Closer examination may indicate that it is really of being out of control"

blah...blah, blah...blah, blah, blah.

and suddenly one understand that he can kill himself

I don't know the theory of falling, I climb hard on sport...the rock is bad, we must place bolt to allow uninform people who like ignorance to climb hard  to have access to a 5.6x route.

The quote is from climbing your best. Training to maximize your performance. by Heather Reynolds Sagar. As I learned a lot about safety, and I climbed with Base, a pillar on safety and trad climbing, I can concentrate on hard trad move.   

   
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JBro on November 03, 2013, 11:04:03 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/RFHHL.gif)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 03, 2013, 11:40:05 AM
(http://img.pandawhale.com/80182-joe-biden-WTF-gif-1wTE.gif)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DLottmann on November 03, 2013, 03:35:11 PM
another worthless post...

(http://img.pandawhale.com/50931-Colbert-slow-clap-gif-tOP4.gif)

I did use it to learn how to insert animated gif's... so thanks for that I guess.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DaveR on November 03, 2013, 08:04:42 PM
Now you have me laughing!  :)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: krankonthis on November 04, 2013, 02:00:14 PM
I like daffy the best. just keep feeding the geese LL.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: kenreville on November 04, 2013, 04:39:43 PM
"As I learned a lot about safety, and I climbed with Base, a pillar on safety and trad climbing, I can concentrate on hard trad move."

WTF does this discombobulated abortion of a sentence mean?

For all your "trad" bravado LL, you still ain't shit till you solo that scary route.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 04, 2013, 08:04:48 PM
"As I learned a lot about safety, and I climbed with Base, a pillar on safety and trad climbing, I can concentrate on hard trad move."
I think he might have meant "Base, a pillar of strength in safety and trad climbing".    Just a guess.
Base is a hoot to be around; haven't seen him in years. Maybe spending moat of his time tutoring LL/Champ. :)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: kenreville on November 04, 2013, 08:08:12 PM
Well to that I say- big deal. Anyone who's climbed in NH over the last 30 years has climbed with Base.  ::)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 05, 2013, 06:51:06 PM
"As I learned a lot about safety, and I climbed with Base, a pillar on safety and trad climbing, I can concentrate on hard trad move."
I think he might have meant "Base, a pillar of strength in safety and trad climbing".    Just a guess.
Base is a hoot to be around; haven't seen him in years. Maybe spending moat of his time tutoring LL/Champ. :)

I most admit, I am still learning from him...and he is a great partner in the cliff.

Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: mopowers on November 05, 2013, 07:32:28 PM
Hey Luke, If you climb with Base then i believe we have met. You were such a polite guy.

Base has fully embraced rap bolting and has established well over a dozen sport pitches in the last few years. What are your thoughts on this?
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DLottmann on November 05, 2013, 07:43:22 PM
Hey Luke, If you climb with Base then i believe we have met. You were such a polite guy.

Base has fully embraced rap bolting and has established well over a dozen sport pitches in the last few years. What are your thoughts on this?

I’ve met him twice. Super nice guy in person. Crazy online (I know 3 others that can vouch for how different he is in person)

And while I am answering for him, I don’t think it’s bolts he is against... he’s just against “sport mentality”...

and bouldering before you learn to trad climb...

and bringing compasses into the mountains...

and reading avalanche bulletins...

and not understanding the finer principles of hemp...
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 05, 2013, 11:56:41 PM
Base has fully embraced rap bolting and has established well over a dozen sport pitches in the last few years.
Really?  I AM surprised by this.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Admin Al on November 06, 2013, 06:26:23 AM
Base has fully embraced rap bolting and has established well over a dozen sport pitches in the last few years. What are your thoughts on this?

Is this at Owls?
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: slacker on November 06, 2013, 07:02:47 AM
Ya Al...   He has put up quite a few over at Owls.  There is one that I have done with Mopowers that was a sweet 4 pitch 10c?
As I remember though it was a rap bolted route it is still quite sporty!!!
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: kenreville on November 06, 2013, 09:36:33 PM
A rap bolted sporty route?

How is this even possible?
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: eyebolter on November 06, 2013, 09:50:33 PM
A rap bolted sporty route?

How is this even possible?

Easy as hell to put up a sporty rap bolted route since you can TR the shit out of it before you lead it.

Same as head pointing, I've "put up" (down?) 12R trad routes that way at places that don't allow bolts.

Really bad style for a sport route IMHO.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 06, 2013, 09:52:57 PM
Creating a route top down gives you the opertunity to craft a masterpiece. The idea  at least for me is to end up with a route that is fun and exciteing. If you over bolt it  is not exciteing and if you under bolt  then it is not fun. I try to find a perfect ballance of  exciteing without being stupid dangerous.  Keep the sporty parts either below the grade or with clean safe falls. Bottom line is that mostly I put the climb up so that I can have fun shareing them with friends and repeteing them. If they are stupid dangerous my friends will hate me and I won't want to repete the dam thing = total waste of time, money and rock.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Lee on November 07, 2013, 10:50:19 AM
I usually don't entertain this subject because I love bouldering, sport climbing and trad equally.  After just spending 10 days in Yosemite it dawned on me that for the most part the bolted routes that I climb tend to be scarier than the trad ones.  I don't know what routes people are climbing trad on regularly but almost all the classics that I can think of in New Hampshire tend to be so well protected that they are less scary than the bolted routes.  Recompense, Intimidation, Diedre, Lichen Delight, Robinson Crusoe and dozens of other classics are so well protected that they are only as dangerous as you choose to make them, they are all way less scary than the "bolted" section on Ladyslipper for sure.  Climbing at higher grades at Rumney, Shell or Wild River is just easier because you don't have to hang on as long to find the right piece but once you have fallen on nuts and cams enough times I don't think that it's any scarier than bolts.  And as far as bold goes I think that high ball bouldering is by far the boldest with the most severe consequences, on a regular basis.  This train of thought doesn't apply to folks who are leading stuff like Stage Fright, but that's not the bulk of us. If you avoid sport climbing then I think that you are missing out on great training value. The best routes in the world are trad though. The Rostrum, Astroman, etc.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DLottmann on November 07, 2013, 01:05:17 PM
Creating a route top down gives you the opertunity to craft a masterpiece. The idea  at least for me is to end up with a route that is fun and exciteing. If you over bolt it  is not exciteing and if you under bolt  then it is not fun. I try to find a perfect ballance of  exciteing without being stupid dangerous.  Keep the sporty parts either below the grade or with clean safe falls. Bottom line is that mostly I put the climb up so that I can have fun shareing them with friends and repeteing them. If they are stupid dangerous my friends will hate me and I won't want to repete the dam thing = total waste of time, money and rock.

Gotta agree with you here. While I have the utmost respect for those who pioneered the ground up FA I'l rather have well thought out bolts vrs. this is where I could drill from bolts. at least when it comes to craggin'.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: pappy on November 07, 2013, 03:09:59 PM
Creating a route top down gives you the opertunity to craft a masterpiece. The idea  at least for me is to end up with a route that is fun and exciteing. If you over bolt it  is not exciteing and if you under bolt  then it is not fun. I try to find a perfect ballance of  exciteing without being stupid dangerous.  Keep the sporty parts either below the grade or with clean safe falls. Bottom line is that mostly I put the climb up so that I can have fun shareing them with friends and repeteing them. If they are stupid dangerous my friends will hate me and I won't want to repete the dam thing = total waste of time, money and rock.

Gotta agree with you here. While I have the utmost respect for those who pioneered the ground up FA I'l rather have well thought out bolts vrs. this is where I could drill from bolts. at least when it comes to craggin'.


This has turned out to be one of the more insidious effects of sport climbing. Not saying it's good or bad, I just didn't see it coming that the mainstream method of putting up new routes of all kinds would become rapping, cleaning, and inspecting first. We were putting up what I guess was a new route at Brandon Gap, anyway, new to me with no evidence of any prior ascent, and when I racked up my partner said, 'Aren't you going rap it first?' Ummm, no, I told him I was going up to find out what was there, and he said 'I've never done it that way before.' I was nonplussed to say the least, but when I started looking around and reading some of the stuff on line I realized that is the new norm. I've certainly rapped and cleaned lines before (I've even placed a few bolts on rappel, but don't spread that around), but I've always felt a little slutty about it.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 07, 2013, 03:48:13 PM
Jeez ..i thought  i was done with this thread.

HUNDREDS of ground up routes are masterpieces.  The assumption that a finely crafted route can only be created on rap is BullShit..

Run out routes can be fun  !! and safe is relative.. even dangerous lines can be fun sometimes
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 07, 2013, 05:40:07 PM
GU is fine as long as you have the decency to fix whatever mistakes you made in the heat of the moment. I have a few GU FA's that I feel are perfect right out of the box and I have a few that needed a few changes to be perfect. I also have a few that I would rather have cleaned and prepped top down.  GU is however hands down a LOT less work than top down.

My current project I did the lower part GU simply because I was too scared to rap over the huge roof and down aid back to the wall. We accomplished as much in the one GU session as the previous 5 TD sessions.

+1 for  Lee's post. If I placed as many bolts per pitch as the average trad leader places bomber gear (myself included) I would get laughed right out of town;) 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 07, 2013, 06:02:45 PM
Pappy, what did you do up on Horrid?  that place has a pretty cool feel to it....
Nick
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 11, 2013, 12:28:01 PM
This has turned out to be one of the more insidious effects of sport climbing. [....]I realized that is the new norm.

This is not a new norm. It is sport climbing norm.

when people disagree with there norm... they insult you, challenge you like in grindripper or a geometrical equation, delete what you said when you bring argument which is different, like describing the reflex to place a pro like in a gym in a dangerous situation for sport and down climbing in a trad mentality as you do when you on sight a new route.

This is sad. 


Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DLottmann on November 11, 2013, 01:54:06 PM
I think your posts were removed for being off topic, not argumentative.

Also, the author did say you should know what to do if you drop an ATC... so you were also just plain speculative and wrong.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 11, 2013, 03:24:31 PM
I think your posts were removed for being off topic, not argumentative.

You said that the article is good, I said that it is not so good. and my argument is describe in the article on heuristic clue http://www.snowpit.com/articles/traps%20reprint.pdf from an other traid.

Actually, in quebec the accident that we have are of the same nature than the one that a person who make a syntax mistake. He know what to do, but for a reason he didn't do it...he have a reflex that, still very good in sport, is not in trad.

The article was wrote to built heuristic clue good for sport.

But it is out topic in this thread. Some proof that trad mentality, bottom up, still exist fortunately. The new guide book is a gem for that.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: pappy on November 12, 2013, 08:18:49 AM
Pappy, what did you do up on Horrid?  that place has a pretty cool feel to it....
Nick

didn't see this earlier...we were way around to the right at the high dark face where the WI5 pillar forms. The only sign of activity we've ever seen was an old pin that seemed to be associated with the ice climb, although it seems likely that people have climbed the rock, too, around there. there's a bitchin' arete I've wanted to do, too, and I've about convinced myself that a dark smudge half way up it will be a killer tri-cam placement, but oh, the horror if it isn't...but rapping to find out for sure would kill the adventure.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 12, 2013, 11:05:42 AM
but rapping to find out for sure would kill the adventure.

I was a beginner and after the first pitch, I had to climb an off widths. So, I stacked two hexes together as a first pro and I look higher. There was a small block in the crack where I can place a good nuts. As I was close to my limit for that time, I took a stopper and hold it with my mouth, so it will be handy to place...and I climbed. At the block, at test it...and it literally disintegrated in my hand. I was so surprised that I open my mouth, the stopper falling to the bottom. So surprise that I was not able, and feel not safe, to climb higher and begin to down climb. As I was doing it, I slept and fall on my two hexes...which catch the fall. After a pendulum, I came to a rest and my partner climb the pitch.

Knowing where to place the pro from the top and I never had that adventure. (I practiced to stack to hex or nuts and hex before the climb) 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 12, 2013, 05:11:00 PM
That is a cool place to have adventures for sure!  The few routs i have done up there were all Ground up.  can be mighty loose in places. I did retro bolt  my 5.7X climb on the east face of the little finger but I retroed on lead at least....
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 14, 2013, 09:29:43 PM
I usually don't entertain this subject because I love bouldering, sport climbing and trad equally.  After just spending 10 days in Yosemite it dawned on me that for the most part the bolted routes that I climb tend to be scarier than the trad ones.  I don't know what routes people are climbing trad on regularly but almost all the classics that I can think of in New Hampshire tend to be so well protected that they are less scary than the bolted routes.  Recompense, Intimidation, Diedre, Lichen Delight, Robinson Crusoe and dozens of other classics are so well protected that they are only as dangerous as you choose to make them, (bold by me)

First, we have to define what is scary. Some people are scary of falling and some other of failling. One will be sary of a movie. With the exception of an heart attack, there is not a lot of danger to look a scary movie.

In trad, ordinarly, when you are scare, you are already in problem. The ethic is too make sound decision to be safe first and to climb, second. You are not climbing over your helmet, but at your limit and a little bit more. As you have to define what is your limit, you will understand that for some one, climbing 5.7, it is his limit. or climbing 5.8. A beginer in trad is generally a leader of 5.7 and under for the reason that I will describe in an other discussion. So, if you begin to be scary, it is because you have a lack of knowledge in safety.

In sport, there is bolt. The bolt are place in a way, in general, that it will protect the climber from any injury. If a climber is scary on bolt, pratically top rope for some trad climber, maybe there is a problem. They are scary, but they push the move because a fall is not dangerous. After a fall, or ten, pulling the draw to came back to the hold, the climber won't be scare any more and he will be able to make the move.

recom-beast is not so easy, and accident happened in the past because bad protection (long fall), in intimidation, some climber felt in the first pitch before the diedral. In the pitch two, a block felt this summer and I think that they place a bolt to protect the move (I hope that it is at the same place than the block to keep the integrity of the climb). In diedral, fall on the offwithd in the first pitch and the pro is not really so good (placing a pro, if you don't fall on it, the pro is still questionable, not good).

"classics are so well protected that they are only as dangerous as you choose to make them" is very true. But as you climb on bolt, you can thinkt hat your pro is as good as a bolt (death of a climber in quebec, anging on a bad cam number 4). So, for a trad climber, we can not say: go try nutcracker, and come back to told me if all classic is so well protect. We can't say that a classic is R, because of the danger to kill someone. Gypsie, second and four pitch is not so well protect and it is a popular climb used as finish at recompense before.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 14, 2013, 09:57:47 PM
"In trad, ordinarly, when you are scare, you are already in problem. The ethic is too make sound decision to be safe first and to climb, second. You are not climbing over your helmet, but at your limit and a little bit more. As you have to define what is your limit, you will understand that for some one, climbing 5.7, it is his limit. or climbing 5.8. A beginer in trad is generally a leader of 5.7 and under for the reason that I will describe in an other discussion. So, if you begin to be scary, it is because you have a lack of knowledge in safety."
I think there is a little BS or oversimplication here.  Say you are a competent 5.9 trad climber, do not tell me you are not even a little scared leading 5.7R especially it is on-sight.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 14, 2013, 10:08:17 PM
"pratically top rope for some trad climber"

BS..  i've seen trad climbers that couldn't climb crap on bolts because they were too chicken to be above their bolt.   when you place gear every body length and sew stuff up doesn't help a damn thing when you could be well above a bolt on a sport route.

a friend of mine carried and placed so much gear on a route at the gunks that he pumped himself out and had to hang on gear. it was well within his leading range. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 15, 2013, 06:18:54 AM
My personal favorite is pushing the cam up the crack so that you have a Tr for the whole lead and or or being chicken to lead the sport routs @ rumny without placeing gear in between the bolts and then getting on the internet and bashing sport climbing ;)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: steve weitzler on November 15, 2013, 07:31:59 AM
My personal favorite is pushing the cam up the crack so that you have a Tr for the whole lead and or or being chicken to lead the sport routs @ rumny without placeing gear in between the bolts and then getting on the internet and bashing sport climbing

Tradmanclimbz brings up a good issue (not to fuel the fire). If you can place gear between bolts what is the point of bolting a route? If adaquate trad protection exists why would you bolt the route? Seems to me the better adventure would be to lead it ground up. (this ought to get the discussion going on a boring Friday morning). ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Pete Jackson on November 15, 2013, 09:25:35 AM
Tradmanclimbz brings up a good issue (not to fuel the fire). If you can place gear between bolts what is the point of bolting a route? If adaquate trad protection exists why would you bolt the route? Seems to me the better adventure would be to lead it ground up. (this ought to get the discussion going on a boring Friday morning). ;) ;) ;)

Not to fuel the fire? HAHA. I think we've had this argument several dozen times!  ;D

It's for the same reason that in some areas, R/X routes (eg. Stage Fright) go without bolts even when adequate trad pro doesn't exist. The short answer is, sometimes the local ethic calls for it.

There are plenty of -- or at least a few -- routes at Rumney that were formerly R/X (Metamorphosis) or were really good lines hidden under scary choss that went largely unclimbed before getting bolts (Son of Sammy, Orange Crush). Rumney is fairly different from everywhere else, though. If Son of Sammy or Methamorphosis were on Cathedral, they'd have been chopped in about 48 seconds, and rightly so. But while there was some grumbling when they got retroed at Rumney, everyone has largely agreed that they are safer, more aesthetic, and more well traveled with the bolts.


Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 15, 2013, 10:20:38 AM
Yep,  both of those are some of my favorite warm ups for the surrounding climbs..  they had next to no climbing on them before they got bolts and get tons of ascents now.    The classic trad ones still get done (probably because they are closer to the parking lot)  Beginners route,  crack by the road and Holderness corner.     No one is stopping folks from doing the retro'd climbs on gear... I did No Money Down a few years ago.. the crux bolt is original so it doesn't change it much. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 15, 2013, 10:42:39 AM
"In trad, ordinarly, when you are scare, you are already in problem. [...]

 Say you are a competent 5.9 trad climber, do not tell me you are not even a little scared leading 5.7R especially it is on-sight.

When you are scare, you can't concentrate as much as when your mind is relax. Some climber can make an abstraction of the situation and just concentrate on the movement without thinking about the exposition.

I used to call it "the wall". The situation when a beginner know enough to get into trouble, but not enough to get out of the trouble safely. When a beginner hit the wall, he can understand that he should master his emotion and concentrate on technique (which is climbing at your limit) or he can bail and need more bolt to climb a 5.7x in a 5.9 route. if he stay at the wall, he is good for an accident.

Pushing your limit in sport, you are going to try the move what ever will happen as you fall  on the rope. Pushing the limit in trad, you have to learn more about how the rope management, what physic concept is important to place good pro, how can be a good second to know if your belayer do his job correctly and what you should expect from him, how strong you are and how much you can stretch...how to anticipate a move or a situation...[....] and how you can keep in control of yourself in the worse situation.

Taking a guide as a beginner is particularly important in trad as you don't know a lot. You can be scare easily and, after your partner explained you some basic situation, you can begin to put in perspective all the piece of the puzzle.

In sport, you just climb hard, but very very hard and built your strenght and flexibility to meet your goal. use a gri gri. know how to avoid bad clip, and follow a set of individual rules. But you climb very hard.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 15, 2013, 11:16:09 AM
"In trad, ordinarly, when you are scare, you are already in problem. [...]

 Say you are a competent 5.9 trad climber, do not tell me you are not even a little scared leading 5.7R especially it is on-sight.

When you are scare, you can't concentrate as much as when your mind is relax. Some climber can make an abstraction of the situation and just concentrate on the movement without thinking about the exposition.

I used to call it "the wall". The situation when a beginner know enough to get into trouble, but not enough to get out of the trouble safely. When a beginner hit the wall, he can understand that he should master his emotion and concentrate on technique (which is climbing at your limit) or he can bail and need more bolt to climb a 5.7x in a 5.9 route. if he stay at the wall, he is good for an accident.

Pushing your limit in sport, you are going to try the move what ever will happen as you fall  on the rope. Pushing the limit in trad, you have to learn more about how the rope management, what physic concept is important to place good pro, how can be a good second to know if your belayer do his job correctly and what you should expect from him, how strong you are and how much you can stretch...how to anticipate a move or a situation...[....] and how you can keep in control of yourself in the worse situation.

Taking a guide as a beginner is particularly important in trad as you don't know a lot. You can be scare easily and, after your partner explained you some basic situation, you can begin to put in perspective all the piece of the puzzle.

In sport, you just climb hard, but very very hard and built your strenght and flexibility to meet your goal. use a gri gri. know how to avoid bad clip, and follow a set of individual rules. But you climb very hard.

blah blah blah has nothing to do with  sport or trad.    People are just as scared to fall on bolts when they start as they are on gear.   

you need a hobby.  try climbing sometime. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: OldEric on November 15, 2013, 12:01:13 PM
I did No Money Down a few years ago.. the crux bolt is original so it doesn't change it much.

Actually the crux bolt is not the original one.  It is in the same general vacinity though - so Jake's point is valid.  Well except for the inevitable knee jerk response about the lack of true committment when one goes off to do a sport route with trad gear.  That argument gets refought on a regular basis.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Pete Jackson on November 15, 2013, 12:12:36 PM
The classic trad ones still get done (probably because they are closer to the parking lot)  Beginners route,  crack by the road and Holderness corner.

Two weeks ago I saw someone leading beginners corner on gear, and the first pieces of gear were hanging free on the rope, having lifted out of the crack.

That route isn't scary, but I felt the fear for the leader. His belayer looked a bit anxious too!
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 15, 2013, 01:54:04 PM
"When you are scare, you can't concentrate as much as when your mind is relax."
If you let the fear take over, then ye,s but most people (myself included) concentrate better when there is a little fear.
It is a fine line and everyone is a little or even quite diferent.
I guess that is exactly the point and any attempt to over-generalize or over-simplify emotions and motivation is fool's errand.

Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 15, 2013, 03:03:27 PM
I have concentrated pretty hard in run out situations,,made hard moves and all......LL I may suggest some routes for you to get the idea ?
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 15, 2013, 04:08:10 PM
I did No Money Down a few years ago.. the crux bolt is original so it doesn't change it much.

Actually the crux bolt is not the original one.  It is in the same general vacinity though - so Jake's point is valid.  Well except for the inevitable knee jerk response about the lack of true committment when one goes off to do a sport route with trad gear.  That argument gets refought on a regular basis.

true.. the new bolt is what.. 1' higher.  i should have said  original bolt location ;)

Lee H  does bolted routes on gear all of the time at rumney. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 15, 2013, 05:05:36 PM
My dig was that some folks who think that trad climbing is so much braver than sport climbing need to sew the bolted climbs up by placeing gear between the bolts as they are too scared to actually climb to the next bolt on the sport climb;)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Jeff on November 15, 2013, 05:40:31 PM
Opening Pandora's box, if you can "sew it up with gear" between the bolts, why did it need the bolts? Just askin'! I've carried and placed gear on lots of "sport" climbs, even sometimes by passing the bolts. I understand and accept the bolts when there is no gear, but...  ;D Of course, I've been climbing since that's the only name we had for it ("climbing"), so I realize I'm a dinosaur 8). I'm OK with that. :-*
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 15, 2013, 05:58:52 PM
Heres an example from CO..a f/a from the the 80's  stemmingwith gear then 2 bolts and finally thin crack to finish..nice climb 11+...over the years it gets retrobolted with 7 bolts ans still no one does it...just last week done in original form with the middle bolts
????

Is climbing this difficult ?

What if Airation was bolted ? 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 15, 2013, 06:37:09 PM
Place as much gear as you want . I have no problem with that. What I find somewhat amuseing is the trad bumbly who trash talks sport climbing but is not brave enough to do certain sport climbs without cheater gear between the bolts yet all those wimpy chicken liver sport climbers do not seem to have any problems climbing through to the next bolt.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 15, 2013, 07:33:28 PM
Airation would see about 50+ ascents on a nice weekend if it were bolted, but having it bolted would change its character significantly, if not spoil it for eternity.

To be fair, plenty of chicken shit climbers in both sport and trad.  Shit, I count myself as a member, have been since 1993. 

I led NMD on trad gear and the one original expansion bolt in '95 or '96.  I think I placed one fewer piece than the number of lower bolts. I have also eyed and TR'ed the direct start for a number of years.  By my fuzzy memory, it goes at about the same grade but solid gear placements in the granular horizontals up the nice steep face may prove challenging and far in-between.  It probably been led this way though.  Lots of good climbers out there who care not of the "profound" differences between trad and sport. :)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 15, 2013, 07:59:28 PM
Nothing wrong with being chicken liver ;D helps you reach old age in one piece....  I am a huge chicken as soon as it gets scary...   Its the part about putting down  a style of climbing that you are not brave enough to do :-*
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 15, 2013, 08:07:01 PM
Nothing wrong with being chicken liver ;D helps you reach old age in one piece....
Amen to that.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 15, 2013, 09:04:24 PM
"When you are scare, you can't concentrate as much as when your mind is relax."
If you let the fear take over, then ye,s but most people (myself included) concentrate better when there is a little fear.
It is a fine line and everyone is a little or even quite diferent.
I guess that is exactly the point and any attempt to over-generalize or over-simplify emotions and motivation is fool's errand.

maybe scary and stress is not the same. Being chalenge is interesting, commitment, adventure. But if there is a danger, I am not scare, I don't climb. If I decide that I can do the move, I do it...and I know that I can fall.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Pete Jackson on November 16, 2013, 05:33:45 PM
But if there is a danger, I am not scare, I don't climb. If I decide that I can do the move, I do it...and I know that I can fall.

That makes sense. Confidence is an important part of making committing moves. One can be scared but still be confident and come through it ok. Most climbers fall once self-doubt enters the equation.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Admin Al on November 17, 2013, 08:12:22 AM
Most climbers fall once self-doubt enters the equation.

 +++
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 17, 2013, 04:03:58 PM
One can be scared but still be confident and come through it ok.
agree,

Psychological pro: you are scare as s@$#, you know that the pro won't hold you body weight, but you place it just to be able to relax and think that you are not going so far.

I am scare to be confident ;D
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: perswig on November 17, 2013, 07:34:33 PM
I am scare to be confident ;D

I'm confident I'll be scared.
Dale
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 17, 2013, 09:13:38 PM
confiidence in climbing is a mixture of blind faith, cockiness and dumb luck..with a dash of "why not"
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 17, 2013, 10:10:39 PM
confidence in climbing is a mixture of blind faith, cockiness and dumb luck..with a dash of "why not"
+1.  And experience contributes favorably to "blind faith" and "cockiness".
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: steve weitzler on November 18, 2013, 07:37:47 AM
Place as much gear as you want . I have no problem with that. What I find somewhat amuseing is the trad bumbly who trash talks sport climbing but is not brave enough to do certain sport climbs without cheater gear between the bolts yet all those wimpy chicken liver sport climbers do not seem to have any problems climbing through to the next bolt.

How is placing gear between bolts cheating? As a climber of about 40 years, if I can gear in I will sport, trad, ice doesn't matter.  The idea is to live and climb tomorrow. If you wnat to be bold and dead feel free. I'd rather be a living trad bumbly drinking in the bar at the end of the day. Just sayin' ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 18, 2013, 08:00:03 AM
The sport climbs are set up as a challange in skill and bravery. The challenge is to be skilled, strong and brave enough to climb from bolt to bolt without resting on gear or adding gear. Simply clip and go. It is perfectly fine to add  gear to the sport climb if you are not strong and brave enough to climb it as it was designed but by doing so you have lost the right to bitch about sport climbing being neither.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DLottmann on November 18, 2013, 08:19:27 AM
...What I find somewhat amuseing is the trad bumbly who trash talks sport climbing but is not brave enough to do certain sport climbs without cheater gear between the bolts yet all those wimpy chicken liver sport climbers do not seem to have any problems climbing through to the next bolt.

I think what you guys might be scratching at here is sport climbers tend to be more comfortable climbing closer to their limits, more comfortable with air time, etc., than your average moderate trad climber.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 18, 2013, 09:24:51 AM
Because of my past, i have always disliked falling..except on TR...maybe that's why i can never get decent at sport climbing ?

It's not really an intense fear, I just don't like it.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 18, 2013, 10:34:46 AM
The sport climbs are set up as a challange in skill and bravery. The challenge is to be skilled, strong and brave enough to climb from bolt to bolt without resting on gear or adding gear. Simply clip and go.

Some sport climber said that they climb cap trinity in Quebec in 9 hours...wow! amasing

You learned that they work the route for three months...by 30 days...by 24 hours...total: they spent more than 1800 hours in the route, plus the 9 hours. It is not what I think of: "clip and go". They work the route with the rope above them, top rope, do retro bolting and rest while the rope stay in the cliff for the next try. It is not what I called brave when you set the bolt in a way where there is no danger. In fact, the challenge is to be the first to free it and bring your friend to try what you realize...or make money when you told every body that you climb the route in...9 hours! But they are skill and strong to be able to climb that hard.

Trad climber will do the route bottom up. One day, they will sew the route, the other practically solo it. As he climb bottom up, he never know how the pro will be higher. So, if there is no pro the climber will be in danger. As you know the danger and push your limit, limit of your knowledge and limit of your capacity, they are brave.
If they fall, or bail because they chicken up, they still don't do the climb without artificial technique to do the move (retro bolting and clipping a bolt to work a route and top roping a move is artificial). In some case, they will do the first ascent of a route and in other they will do the first free ascent of a route.

So, the trad climber are brave, strong, but not as skill as sport in climbing hard move. I admit that some one who sew the route is not necessary a trad climber, as much as someone who learned by rapping in the route or ask a friend which nuts and cam to use and where you most used it. The knowledge to know where is your safety limit is hard to find and need many time spend in the wild doing easy on sight route and harder one. When you look at experience trad climber, you will see that they place there pro at the same places. Not too close so they loose energy, not too far so they can get kill.  But at a distance that, even if he took a 60 footer, he will be safe....at least in his mind.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: pappy on November 18, 2013, 10:44:42 AM
The sport climbs are set up as a challange in skill and bravery. The challenge is to be skilled, strong and brave enough to climb from bolt to bolt without resting on gear or adding gear. Simply clip and go. It is perfectly fine to add  gear to the sport climb if you are not strong and brave enough to climb it as it was designed but by doing so you have lost the right to bitch about sport climbing being neither.

Say what? Strong enough to climb it as designed? I thought mother nature designed the effing climb. The rap bolters put in gear to change that design, and that's fine, as long as the climb does not protect well with gear. I don't sport much, (my excuse is that it's boring as hell, but old age and fat contribute ::) ), and I can't imagine spending the extra effort to place gear on any of the sport climbs I've seen or been on, but if I were to take that extra effort to do so, I fail to see how the fact that I am actually using the rock as designed and expending the extra effort somehow disqualifies me from bitching about sport weenies.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: steve weitzler on November 18, 2013, 12:26:57 PM
The sport climbs are set up as a challange in skill and bravery. The challenge is to be skilled, strong and brave enough to climb from bolt to bolt without resting on gear or adding gear.

Not to beat a dead horse here but sport climbs are "set up" for the skilled, strong , and brave? Honestly if a piece of rock lends itself to a climber placing protection without bolting the route from the top down it seems to me that skilled, strong, and brave is the climber who does the climb sans bolts. I totally agree with Pappy, Nature designed the climbs. But what is nice about climbing is we can climb the way we like. If I don't like bolts (just saying, I have nothing against them) I can climb the route without them or I can climb the route with the bolts or a combination. It's my choice. However way I chose doesn't make me a trad weenie or sport weenie . I'm still a climber by it's definition.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DGoguen on November 18, 2013, 12:41:26 PM
I'd have to say the same to either a sport climber, trad climber or Ice climber that tells me I'm placing too much gear, or not enough for that matter.
"Bite Me"
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 18, 2013, 02:09:01 PM
i have always disliked falling..except on TR...maybe that's why i can never get decent at sport climbing ?
It's not really an intense fear, I just don't like it.
I do not have anywhere near the extensive experience that you have, John, but I feel the same way.  And I think to be able to red point very hard sport routes quickly or to flash/onsight them,  one has to be unafraid to take long falls. 
I prolly piss some people off ... but I would say victory whips are really silly.  I just can't get into that mindset.

Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: steve weitzler on November 18, 2013, 02:13:54 PM
i have always disliked falling..except on TR...maybe that's why i can never get decent at sport climbing ?
It's not really an intense fear, I just don't like it.


Geez John, in all the years I've known you and based on witnessing a few of your falls I wouldn't thought you felt this way. ;)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DGoguen on November 18, 2013, 03:22:40 PM
I prolly piss some people off ... but I would say victory whips are really silly.
I know I'm a dinosaur but what is a "victory whip"?
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DLottmann on November 18, 2013, 04:28:15 PM
I prolly piss some people off ... but I would say victory whips are really silly.
I know I'm a dinosaur but what is a "victory whip"?

I'm gonna go with the context here and say it must be "jumping off" after you reach the chains? Though wouldn't be much of a whip if you clip the chains right?
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 18, 2013, 04:34:19 PM
I prolly piss some people off ... but I would say victory whips are really silly.
I know I'm a dinosaur but what is a "victory whip"?

I'm gonna go with the context here and say it must be "jumping off" after you reach the chains? Though wouldn't be much of a whip if you clip the chains right?

this is more popular on very overhanging stuff.   you basically tag the anchors.. established that you could clip the chains and then whip off.     it is also a way to use a 60m rope at the Motherlode at RRG and still make it back to the ground ;)    locally..  Whip Tide  and Predator   are popular. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 18, 2013, 04:45:53 PM
Don't mean to get off on a tangent ... my point is I can't imagine myself ever taking a voluntary whip, sport or trad, victory or otherwise.
Typically, a body length fall is plenty for me.  :)  Like some of us, I do not like falling off routes.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Admin Al on November 18, 2013, 04:57:31 PM
I'd have to say the same to either a sport climber, trad climber or Ice climber that tells me I'm placing too much gear, or not enough for that matter.
"Bite Me"

+++

I've had lots of people ask me over they years; "Why did you put in that much gear/screws/etc?"

My response is always; "Because I can!"
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 18, 2013, 05:33:23 PM
Luke- some day maybe you can explain my late,great friend Todd Skinner to me...by far the most talented crack(trad) climber I have ever climbed with and yet by any definition  a pioneer in sport climbing in america ???

He climbed 13+ crack before he did 13+ sport   ;D  How did this happen  oh ya  also freed the Salathe Wall   kinda varied talent would you not say ?
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 18, 2013, 06:13:00 PM
Luke- some day maybe you can explain my late,great friend Todd Skinner to me...by far the most talented crack(trad) climber I have ever climbed with and yet by any definition  a pioneer in sport climbing in america ???

He climbed 13+ crack before he did 13+ sport   ;D  How did this happen  oh ya  also freed the Salathe Wall   kinda varied talent would you not say ?

shhh.. facts and reality just confuse him. 

i also have a few friends who are in the .13 trad and sport  group.   RRG/ NRG  in general has many. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 18, 2013, 06:16:33 PM
You guys seem to be missing the point. If the sport weinie climbs the route useing LESS gear than you  you have lost the right to bitch about what a wenie he or she is. You can still trash them if you like but it just makes you look old and weak.

Again I am NOT saying that you can not place as much gear as you want. Just saying that you look like a fool if you trash talk a sport weinie and then place twice as much gear as them to get up the same piece of rock.

Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 18, 2013, 06:18:41 PM
Was Skinner the first American to establish a .14 on home soil with Throwin' the Houlihan?
But as John said it is 'just' one of his many accomplishments in the world of climbing.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DLottmann on November 18, 2013, 07:00:59 PM
I’ve been sayin’ for years that “warm up falls” would really help my climbing. That book “The Rock Warriors Way” has some interesting exercises to “free up the mind” LOL...

Wish I was comfortable taking big whips... something I can definitely work on!
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 18, 2013, 07:07:33 PM
I definitely feel more comfortable after i've fallen a few times...  i don't like to do it.  but when i'm working on something hard then it happens and you think about it less. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 18, 2013, 07:18:28 PM
I would rather not fall. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 18, 2013, 07:27:21 PM
That book “The Rock Warriors Way” has some interesting exercises to “free up the mind” LOL...
Wish I was comfortable taking big whips... something I can definitely work on!
After watching numerous "kids" work hard routes, taking the whips, and then redpoint hard routes quickly, I know there is really something to the freeing the mind up method.  I have a mental block against it, always have.

Yeah, I could stand to work on taking the whip thing.  Even when I was working Social Outcast, possibly the safest sport climb to fall off from, I would take these weenie little falls during redpoint attempts.  No wonder it took me an embarassing number of tries to finally get it (tho only as a pink point).  LOL.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 18, 2013, 07:40:14 PM
That book “The Rock Warriors Way” has some interesting exercises to “free up the mind” LOL...
Wish I was comfortable taking big whips... something I can definitely work on!
After watching numerous "kids" work hard routes, taking the whips, and then redpoint hard routes quickly, I know there is really something to the freeing the mind up method.  I have a mental block against it, always have.

Yeah, I could stand to work on taking the whip thing.  Even when I was working Social Outcast, possibly the safest sport climb to fall off from, I would take these weenie little falls during redpoint attempts.  No wonder it took me an embarassing number of tries to finally get it (tho only as a pink point).  LOL.


Yep..  social took me 2 burns on the day i sent it (2 others on different days)  the first i fell on the last bolt and i was really going for it so it was a decent fall..  the 2nd time felt as hard but i wasn't thinking about falling.    same with when i was working Things as they are now and  Curl up and fly..  shorter  falls but being able to commit to moves was important.    I went backwards on  Orangahang..  another really safe fall..  and i never fell.. i always took at the crux bolt until i sent it. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 18, 2013, 09:31:37 PM
I can't ever rember taking more than maybe 8-10 falls on a route..and that was f/a's....established routes ???..maybe2-3 on Women in Love or  3-4 on Heather.....

Bit's N Pieces was around 10 trying to get a bolt in...Clean Sweep maybe 5 over 5 days
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 18, 2013, 10:06:16 PM
He climbed 13+ crack before he did 13+ sport   ;D  How did this happen  oh ya  also freed the Salathe Wall   kinda varied talent would you not say ?

It is astonishing to me too. One climb crack to +13 as a trad climber and sudently...he is a sport climber but there is no difference. Why did he begin to be a sport climber if there is no differences (if you look at the definition that I gave, if he work the crack from the top and know where to place his pro on top rope, he is not such a trad climber. As I heard about him, I know that he did many route bottom up as it was the style when just trad climbing exist.)

If you look at railroad track. At your feet, they are parrallele and they don't touch each other. If you look far away, you will see that the two rail join to make one. It is how many people look climbing without doing the difference, but there is a difference.

For a climber like your friend, it make not a lot of difference between sport and trad  because he can do both. When you climb with beginer, like I do, you will see very fast that they don't make the difference and they are not good at both.

Brave: One can have the distinguished service cross, a wife, two kid and don't want to take risk as he practice some exercises. For that person, doing sport climbing is very great because he can climb and the risk was pretty low. So the climber his brave, but he prefer some think softer.

As I don't have the same obligation, nor bravoure, I can take more risk and trad climbing is for me better. Note that if my skill is 5.4, I can climb at my limit and have the same pleasure as a climber of 5.13 who climb at his limit.

Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 18, 2013, 11:01:45 PM
"For a climber like your friend, it make not a lot of difference between sport and trad  because he can do both."
Indeed Todd Skinner was exceptionally skilled in both.  But there are plenty of people around (even some on this board!) who are skilled in both.  I think we have been trying to tell you this for years now.  It is not quite as simple as trad or sport for everyone.  For the talented ones, it is trad and sport.  Maybe not truly exceptional at both but very good in both.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: lucky luke on November 18, 2013, 11:39:33 PM
But there are plenty of people around (even some on this board!) who are skilled in both.  I think we have been trying to tell you this for years now.

Go at the north end practice slab and count the number of people who aid climb with one aider at a time, bouncing bad pro  in an A1 to gain confidence that it is as solid as a bolt. It is not fun.  Not that it is not an advance technique, but when you saw someone risking his life on 45 feet of rock, it is not fun. And I saw good training too. Long time ago, a guide was climbing with his client with, as safety,five pro  (when the student place a pro, the guide remove one from the bottom)...without danger.

When people died because the community don't want to make the distinction between sport and trad because some elite learned trad before learning sport and the industry attract people with trad and don't want to loose there client who other wise don't want to do sport... it is a high cost.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 18, 2013, 11:57:17 PM
There you go again.
Saying there are people, even many people, who are good at both is not the same as saying there is no difference between sport and trad.  Just because you are unwilling or unable to accept that people lesser known than the likes of Skinner can be good and safe at both, it does not make real-world evidence disappear. 
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JakeDatc on November 19, 2013, 12:03:04 AM
Must be sad to have such a pathetic view of the world...   

another 8 year old that climbs harder than champ ever will.   clips need work but that is probably because her hands are tiny. 
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/angie-scarth-johnson-turkey-slap-26-bardens-lookout-blue-mtns
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Pete Jackson on November 19, 2013, 12:07:00 AM
I am pretty sure we have enough material on this thread to write a bot that will argue every single side of the sport trad point to exhaustion. Then we can all go climbing!
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: M_Sprague on November 19, 2013, 07:20:46 AM
I think you may be on to something, Peter. Sometimes I think LL is a creation of Al's to keep the clicks up. He didn't quite get the algorithm correct and now it is stuck in a feedback loop.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 19, 2013, 08:42:09 AM
Feedback or infinite loop?

Some fun fact: 1 Infinite Loop is Apple Inc.'s headquarters in Cupertino, California.

Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Admin Al on November 19, 2013, 08:47:01 AM
Sometimes I think LL is a creation of Al's to keep the clicks up. He didn't quite get the algorithm correct and now it is stuck in a feedback loop.

[LOL] that would be some pretty good programming, even if it did have some bugs... reminds me of Max headroom



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYdpOjletnc
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DGoguen on November 19, 2013, 10:52:40 AM
No, more Trad like Dr Smith
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: M_Sprague on November 19, 2013, 11:57:32 AM
Feedback or infinite loop?

Thanks, Soon. Infinite loop is what I meant.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: xcrag_corex on November 19, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
If we are going to go as far as saying LL is a bot I'm willing to bet DMAN is a bot made to counter the LL perspective to draw everybody in. Kinda like the 2 party system. All arguing and nothing gets done (in this case climbing). Which would have Al running the show aka "The Man". It's all a conspiracy to get more hits on NEClimbs!!!!!
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: steve weitzler on November 19, 2013, 01:15:28 PM
I think DMAN is Al (his alter ego). ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 19, 2013, 01:37:49 PM
Lucky Luke--  "i  am your father "
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: DLottmann on November 19, 2013, 01:52:59 PM
Busted- Admin Al.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: Admin Al on November 19, 2013, 04:45:02 PM
you guys are TOO MUCH...
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: JBro on November 19, 2013, 08:50:33 PM
(http://toomanysebastians.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/robotGIF.gif)
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: steve weitzler on November 20, 2013, 11:25:17 AM
Lucky Luke--  "i  am your father "

I knew it John. You didn't have me fooled.
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: sneoh on November 20, 2013, 02:23:34 PM
Do you still have that full face helmet, John?
Nice.. Can I borrow it for next Halloween?
Title: Re: fear and scary route
Post by: strandman on November 20, 2013, 03:40:58 PM
No..that's my O.J. look.....I wear it to sport areas