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General => General Climbing => Topic started by: darwined on January 13, 2014, 10:49:56 PM

Title: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: darwined on January 13, 2014, 10:49:56 PM
I was wondering if anyone had tips for cutting weight from your backcountry setup that you were particularly proud of?
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: Admin Al on January 14, 2014, 06:24:00 PM
Carry less!
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 14, 2014, 07:40:42 PM
Can you clarify? "Backcountry" to me makes me think skiing... are you talking remote ice climbs? Like what do we carry for something like Drool of the Beast?

Gonna assume remote ice climbs and answer anyways:

1) Pre-hydrate. I only carry 1 32 oz bottle for a full day of ice climbing. I compensate by hydrating like a fool the night before. Normally I drink a 32oz bottle around dinner time (interspersed with beer or wine), then go to bed with a full Nalgene on the nightstand. I'll need to get up 2-3 times to urinate, at which points I'll drink about 1/3 of the Nalgene. The goal is for it to be empty by morning. Then I drink 1 more 32oz bottle on the way to the trail-head. So climbing with only 1 32 oz bottle for a full 8-10 hour day is quite reasonable if you start off that hydrated... Even with a triple Americano to start the day I'm peeing crystal clear...

2) Clothing... only piece of clothing in my ice pack is my puffy and a warmer pair of gloves for end of day...

3) Screws: switching to almost all 13cm's this season with a few longer ones for belays...

4) Biner's, except for a few lockers all super light wiregates... Petzl Ange S & L's

5) Slings: I'll take flak but lots of dyneema alpine draws... only a couple double length nylon slings...

6) Less Screamers.... used to carry lots... now only 2... lead falls on ice in 10+ years = zero (knock on wood), so felt like I was being a bit too paranoid... now I only use screamers on the first couple screws...

7) Rope... 9.4 is the fattest rope I want to ice climb on, except for TR. Prefer leading on 9.1 or 9.2 if it is a pure ice route...

8) Backpack... Wild Things Ice Sack or similiar CCW... light & simple....

All I can think of for now... but basically when I am racked up my backpack weighs less than 6 pounds (first aid kit, water bottle, belay jacket, yummy food).

 
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: sneoh on January 14, 2014, 09:01:52 PM
Can you clarify? "Backcountry" to me makes me think skiing... are you talking remote ice climbs? Like what do we carry for something like Drool of the Beast?

Gonna assume remote ice climbs and answer anyways:

1) Pre-hydrate. I only carry 1 32 oz bottle for a full day of ice climbing. I compensate by hydrating like a fool the night before. Normally I drink a 32oz bottle around dinner time (interspersed with beer or wine), then go to bed with a full Nalgene on the nightstand. I'll need to get up 2-3 times to urinate, at which points I'll drink about 1/3 of the Nalgene. The goal is for it to be empty by morning. Then I drink 1 more 32oz bottle on the way to the trail-head. So climbing with only 1 32 oz bottle for a full 8-10 hour day is quite reasonable if you start off that hydrated...

7) Rope... 9.4 is the fattest rope I want to ice climb on, except for TR. Prefer leading on 9.1 or 9.2 if it is a pure ice route...

All I can think of for now... but basically when I am racked up my backpack weighs less than 6 pounds (first aid kit, water bottle, belay jacket, yummy food).

Yeah, 1) will save you a lot of weight.  It is not that easy to do for me tho.  I've tried; that 32 oz in the morning after or with coffee is tough to stomach. 
9.4mm?  That's for rock too?  I can't bring myself to lead on anything less than 9.8mm.
Six pounds for the backpack with all that stuff?  That is LIGHT.  My pack might be four empty :(
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 14, 2014, 09:59:27 PM
Yeah, 1) will save you a lot of weight.  It is not that easy to do for me tho.  I've tried; that 32 oz in the morning after or with coffee is tough to stomach. 
9.4mm?  That's for rock too?  I can't bring myself to lead on anything less than 9.8mm.
Six pounds for the backpack with all that stuff?  That is LIGHT.  My pack might be four empty :(

I hear that. Sometimes I only make it through half that bottle and leave the rest in the car for when I get back...

9.4mm... yes, I was talking ice, though I climb most rock when not guiding on 9.4 (not whipping all day on sport routes).

If your pack weighs 4 pounds empty you need a pack more specific to climbing... easily shave 2 pounds there...

For ice : WildThings Guide Pack: 28 ounces: http://www.wildthingsgear.com/products/guide-pack

For rock: Black Diamond Hollow Point (1lb 10oz) http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3654951&kw=3654951&sr=1&origkw=3654951
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: sneoh on January 14, 2014, 10:49:45 PM
Thanks DMan for the recomm.
I am too old to whip on anything, just scared of skinny ropes.
In reality, my Milllet is pretty big but minimalist (which I like) and is unlikely more than 3 lb.
I like to put everything including rope into the pack altho lately we've been dividing it up; one person carries the rope and food while the other the sport rack and water bottles for both.  Significantly faster.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: triguy on January 15, 2014, 08:27:23 AM
Stop eating like crap and lose 5lbs off your gut. Cheapest way to cut weight.

Learned this lesson the hard way trying to get my road bike weight down - spent tons of money shaving a few lbs. one day at the bike shop I asked the manager what I could do to shave weight....he looked me up and down and told me to go stand in front of the mirror.

Other than that, evaluate your pack after a day out and leave behind the items you did not use.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: markvnh on January 15, 2014, 10:13:41 AM
Those 5 pounds seem to creep up every winter on me!

I actually started using my CCW Ozone - which is essentially a crag pack - in the winter unless its really cold out and I take extra, extra clothing and then use my Chernobyl. In my Ozone I can get ice screws, draws, slings, crampons, harness, belay jacket, gloves, hats and a water bottle in the pack. I stuff food and snacks in the lid zippered sections. Tools go sideways underneath the lid (hadn't been doing this until I saw Dane from Cold Thistle doing this - before I would actually put the tools inside the pack on each side with the picks facing rear - both work). Helmet gets strapped under the lid or on the back through the lid strap. If I'm carrying the rope it goes under the lid.

This works and I usually don't feel as though I've compromised leaving anything behind. With that said I would bet that if I took out my Chernobyl I'd fill the damn thing up and it would weigh what my partners packs weigh!
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 15, 2014, 10:18:05 AM
Read Wildthings old blurb light is right, if you can find it...more wisdom in one page than anything.

i read it in'81 and it still holds true.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 15, 2014, 10:45:17 AM
I was wondering if anyone had tips for cutting weight from your backcountry setup that you were particularly proud of?

Safety first, mt washington can be dangerous even for just a day. In quebec, more than one american came back with frozen feet, not just the toe, black blue color to the ankle.

In back country light, 2009, one day hike by lyon, just to have a great day (back packing light...so it is cutting weight) They suggest: 2 16oz Nalgene Wide Mouth 8, 1 40 Below Bottle Insulator 3. In fact, personally, I bring two insulator bottle with sugar tea in it for energy. This is quite different than what they suggest here: 2 16 oz nalgene. Futermore, drinking the day before won't gave you good results as what you want is hydrate the interstitial space between the cells. I used not to drink alcool and less coffee seven days before a long back country. In general, the interstitial space take three days to be full if you drink about six quarts a day...and the important is to take small sip to equal what you lost by transpiration and what you transform from lipid (lipid degradation in your body produce water)

Reynold Mesner had the more interesting suggestion: if you want to know if you will need a piece of equipment, leave it at home in a day that you must need it and do a climb that you did before. If you wish to have it, it is because it is essential. And as you know the route, it is less dangerous than following a set of rules wrote in a forum. There is a lot of trick that work for some one, but not for an other. For example, I always use cotton as a under layer. When my T-shirt is wet, I changed it and place an other one, which act as a sponge for water and keep my other layer dry. It is like neoprene suit for diver. It is not recommended.

Begin with full pack and remove item as you go. If you climb twelve route in a winter and don't need a compass, that doesn't means that the thirteen time won't be your last.

Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: xcrag_corex on January 15, 2014, 11:27:06 AM
LL, how many "extra" cotton shirts do you bring? What if you sweat through multiple and are later benighted?
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: hobbsj on January 15, 2014, 12:11:29 PM
LL stick with the big picture.  You usually have good advice at that level, but once you start trying to delve in to things too much, you end up way off.  Especially with the science stuff.  You're right on that hydrating extensively the day before is not really effective and that the best plan before a big day is to start several days out.  But after that, you're not really accurate with your information.  Unfortunately, putting out mis-inforomation like that leads individuals to draw further incorrect conclusions that may have a significant impact on their decision making.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: sneoh on January 15, 2014, 02:13:23 PM
... hydrating extensively the day before is not really effective and that the best plan before a big day is to start several days out. 
Good to know and I will keep that in mind.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 15, 2014, 06:11:36 PM
... I always use cotton as a under layer. When my T-shirt is wet, I changed it and place an other one, which act as a sponge for water and keep my other layer dry. ...

 :o

So you strip down to skin to change a soaked cotton t-shirt... yes... very efficient energy wise...

#notsurprisedbyluckyluke
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 15, 2014, 07:24:03 PM
LL, how many "extra" cotton shirts do you bring? What if you sweat through multiple and are later benighted?

Many climber do that. They bring t-shirt in there pack. The weight of ten T-shirt.... not a lot. After a long hike, when I am close to the rest place, before I stopped, I changed my t-shirt, so I can change an other time at the bivouac without problem and be a lot dryer than with specialise garment.

I wear some think on my skin, a Tshirt, I had an old silk layer that I used many years which keep the water into the cotton, open my clothes to be in equilibrum with the environment (energy produce by the activity versus temperature need to be confortable). At rest, I have my clothes closer to me and dry. It is exactly what I have. And as I stop before the bivouac, i can built my warm even if we are below zero.

The cotton is a question of choice, but also a misunderstanding of the principle of body regulation. In a warm day, at 102 degree, what your body is going to do? The body make transpiration and at the surface of your skin, the water is changed in vapor by the energy in your skin. So, the use of energy at the surface of your body to transform water to vapor cool you down in winter. Is it different in winter. You make an exercise, you sweat. Your garment expulse the water outside your jacket. You use energy to transform the water in vapor. The energy use is the heat of your body. So, you decrease the heat of your body with hydrofuge garment.

Easy to understand, but not so easy to find the good equilibrum in practice.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 15, 2014, 07:52:43 PM
All I know is I wear one lightweight techwick t-shirt, 1 powerstretch hoodie (all synthetic), a softshell with a down puffy in the pack and sometimes carry a hardshell... and after a long day in the mountains my t-shirt is bone dry while enjoying a pint at the Moat....

What happens to your soaking wet cotton t-shirt after you remove it from your warm body? It becomes a frozen brick.

Jesus you are the best troll alive.

Cotton long underwear in winter... can't believe I fell for that one...
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 15, 2014, 09:39:06 PM
What happens to your soaking wet cotton t-shirt after you remove it from your warm body? It becomes a frozen brick.

You know that sweat was produce by your body. It is the water that we found in wet cotton t-shirt. Do you think that wearing hydrofuge garment will protect you from sweating?

If you make an energy budget, you will understand that the energy that you use to evaporate the water from your fabrick is far more important than changing a cotton t-shirt when it is wet. I won't say that it is good for all purposes. For me, in climbing situataion it is very good.

Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of lipid (or fortunately), so I'm freezing rapidly. And when you are warm, removing clothes is not so terrible. But it is not a recommandation. Test it, after a first hike in winter on mt washington, test it in cold weather. don't wait to be in an expose area before removing your t-shirt, Remove it in a shade area.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: sneoh on January 15, 2014, 10:01:31 PM
:o
So you strip down to skin to change a soaked cotton t-shirt
Funny, that was the first thing I thought of when I read it.
I know I am not hardy enough to go bare chest and back in sub freezing temp to change a T shirt.
The situation will have to be pretty dire for me to go half naked in sub freezing temp.
LL must be a "polar bear".  Come take a dip off MA Coast this winter!!
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 15, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
... or do you think that wearing hydrofuge garment will protect you from sweating?
...

We've all known for 15+ years synthetics don't stop you from sweating, they simply dry faster... you're still trolling me aren't you... damn you are good...
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 15, 2014, 11:46:47 PM
The weight of 10 dry cotton t-shirts is at least 60 ounces -- great tip for going light! If you're lucky you will die of hypothermia so you don't have to lump them back out when they're all soaked and frozen.

(http://i.qkme.me/3q3zd8.jpg)
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 16, 2014, 01:45:52 AM
If you're lucky you will die of hypothermia so you don't have to lump them back out when they're all soaked and frozen.
I camped at temperature under minus 20 for six years and I never had a problem with cold. I used a sleeping bag rate minus 12, I climbed la pomme d'or and in the night that we went out, it was close to minus thirty in the valley.

I told you what I used for my set up and I never had a problem. I think it is knowledge and experiences. I had a master degree in biology. In my field, I study the adaptation of animal to cold and there is many way to survive. I don't say try some thing hard with cotton, I just said try it ounce or twice and decide what you like.

I had a lot of fun and some time I was miserable because I made mistake. It is not to be the first, but just to know that some thing amasing is feasible and safe if we keep our mind open
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DaveR on January 16, 2014, 05:38:03 AM
Read Wildthings old blurb light is right, if you can find it...more wisdom in one page than anything.

i read it in'81 and it still holds true.

"Light is right, strong is not wrong." JB
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: ralbert20 on January 16, 2014, 07:04:40 AM
I make my partner carry everything.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: pappy on January 16, 2014, 07:35:24 AM
Big dog. I had a 95lb. Lab and I made her carry rope, shoes, guidebook, water, her food, anything else I could think of up to 15lbs. She didn't give a crap, and much warmer than a soaked T-shirt if you needed to huddle in the cold.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: ELM on January 16, 2014, 08:18:44 AM
Back to the topic...
    I carry one primaloft puffy, compressed in a stuff sack, a first aid kit and extra pair of gloves maybe an extra hat. Then a small lunch plus just one liter of water.
    It may sound basic but I cut the most weight by making sure I know what my partner is bringing and what I need. I carried around slings and screws for a while when we just didn't need two racks.
    This season I need to upgrade the pack. I have been using a MH Phenom for years. I like the ice tool attachment and it's the right size. The buckles are failing and it just is not that comfortable after 2-3 hours.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: hobbsj on January 16, 2014, 09:48:23 PM
Elm hit a good point that I started really started paying attention to this year-- check what your partner has.  It sounds stupid, but so often, we would get to the base of a climb and my buddy had decided to grab piece of gear x "just because" so we had 18 screws, 4 or 5 which were dull but we packed in because, why not. 

Also, try a smaller pack.  A bigger one just gets filled with more and more.  Some of the ultralight stuff sacrifices comfort for weight.  So it may be worth the extra half pound if a bag is more comfortable and allows you to move more easily.  But counteract this by getting a bag just big enough for what you need without space for lots of extras like a wardrobe of cotton t-shirts. I barely fit my gear with my helmet flopping around on the outside(I think this would be classified as a jerk alert and makes me unsafe according to an article in another post).  I may have gone a tad too small, but I can't over-pack.  I use that pack for a car to car trip like shoe-string or up willard and walking back to the car.  I have a more comfy pack that allows me to haul anything and everything I could need pluis a big camera and whatever else.  This gets pulled out for days when I'm doing multi-pitches but returning to my big bag.  With it goes a $20 bag from REI that is basically a stuff sack with straps and a built in sleeve inside.  I cram belay gloves, my poofy (I only own a huge one so that is a hit on space and weight), .5L of water, a bar, and a headlamp in there and use that for the climb.  This system is super light for the actual climb and lets me sort gear in case I want a thermos of tea at the base or want to take a bit more in to the base.

LL- For us old  guys who remember the show "In Living Color,"  there was a recurring skit of a guy in prison who tried to use a very large vocabulary, but never actually never used the words correctly.  When you try to explain things in depth, you're that guy.  Keep it simple as you can have good ideas on things.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 17, 2014, 03:09:38 AM


LL- [...]   Keep it simple as you can have good ideas on things.

It is always a problem to wrote in an other language than mine. Even in french, it is hard to explain phenomena like conduction, radiation and convection to people who read the tag of a garment and make generalization. I also test synthetic product and froze completely. 

Some of my friend gave me trick that I don't understand at first and, after many reading, I finally found why my partner is true. Old guy have many experiences and they often forget that they learned it when they try it in control environment. Emphasis what I am saying if you think that it is a good idea is, in some point, very important. 

Few week ago, it was minus 20 just outside my front door. I have to think that my answer can influence people who leave where the temperature is mostly above fifteen. So I wrote it in bold to protect those people.

All in all, I prefer to have writing problem than to place other person in danger. Saying that a bag most be just the good size is not a big deal. Saying "without space for lots of extras like a wardrobe of cotton t-shirt" it is a good way to use the language to insult in other person with a joke.     
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 17, 2014, 10:15:10 AM

It is always a problem to wrote in an other language than mine. Even in french, it is hard to explain phenomena like conduction, radiation and convection to people who read the tag of a garment and make generalization. I also test synthetic product and froze completely.
 

Pro tip: don't take the synthetic off and it won't freeze! When you stop moving put a puffy on right over the synthetic. You will remain warm and the synthetic will dry quickly. More importantly, you won't have to lug around 10 frozen cotten t-shirts.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 17, 2014, 10:24:56 AM
I think i see a route name-

Frozen Cotton T Shirts


The best thing to carry is the ability to turn around before the shit hits
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: MT on January 17, 2014, 01:02:40 PM
Building on what Strand said, leave the ego behind. More weight saved for some than others  :D

Seriously, weight loss is the key. I never climbed as well as when I was 10 lbs lighter than I am now, and the walks in were so much easier.

Mike
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: kenreville on January 17, 2014, 07:57:35 PM
If you're lucky you will die of hypothermia so you don't have to lump them back out when they're all soaked and frozen.
I camped at temperature under minus 20 for six years and I never had a problem with cold. I used a sleeping bag rate minus 12, I climbed la pomme d'or and in the night that we went out, it was close to minus thirty in the valley.

I told you what I used for my set up and I never had a problem. I think it is knowledge and experiences. I had a master degree in biology. In my field, I study the adaptation of animal to cold and there is many way to survive. I don't say try some thing hard with cotton, I just said try it ounce or twice and decide what you like.

I had a lot of fun and some time I was miserable because I made mistake. It is not to be the first, but just to know that some thing amasing is feasible and safe if we keep our mind open

You can study all day long with your "masters" in biology- you're still a fucking FOOL. Please stop insulting my intelligence. I have a BS in electrical engineering blah blah blah- BFD. Just because a person is booksmart, doesn't mean they know jackshit. Case in point- YOU. You wear cotton t-shirts in the the winter while climbing? You are a FOOL. PERIOD. NO NEED FOR ANY DISCUSSION. You are dismissed you moron.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: steve weitzler on January 17, 2014, 08:01:41 PM
Gee Ken, how do you really feel.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: darwined on January 17, 2014, 08:04:34 PM
If you're lucky you will die of hypothermia so you don't have to lump them back out when they're all soaked and frozen.
I camped at temperature under minus 20 for six years and I never had a problem with cold. I used a sleeping bag rate minus 12, I climbed la pomme d'or and in the night that we went out, it was close to minus thirty in the valley.

I told you what I used for my set up and I never had a problem. I think it is knowledge and experiences. I had a master degree in biology. In my field, I study the adaptation of animal to cold and there is many way to survive. I don't say try some thing hard with cotton, I just said try it ounce or twice and decide what you like.

I had a lot of fun and some time I was miserable because I made mistake. It is not to be the first, but just to know that some thing amasing is feasible and safe if we keep our mind open
Couple cool ones tonight Ken?
You can study all day long with your "masters" in biology- you're still a fucking FOOL. Please stop insulting my intelligence. I have a BS in electrical engineering blah blah blah- BFD. Just because a person is booksmart, doesn't mean they know jackshit. Case in point- YOU. You wear cotton t-shirts in the the winter while climbing? You are a FOOL. PERIOD. NO NEED FOR ANY DISCUSSION. You are dismissed you moron.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: sneoh on January 17, 2014, 08:15:13 PM
It is always a problem to wrote in an other language than mine. Even in french, it is hard to explain phenomena like conduction, radiation and convection to people who read the tag of a garment and make generalization.   
LL, just constructive advice - if terms like conduction, convection, and radiation best make the point you are trying to make, please go ahead and use them!  I bet more than 80% of the people here known enough of these terms to grasp your point.  Those who do not can easily find out if they are so inclined.  As someone had mentioned, you get into trouble when you offer up scenarios (thinking they might be easier to understand) that do not really fit the science and when you over generalize.  Keep it straight, concise, and to the point and I believe people will be more receptive.

Thanks to Strand the birthday boy, I think A Wardrobe of Frozen Cotton T-Shirts is a WAY COOL route name.  Maybe someday I will get to use it :)
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: kenreville on January 17, 2014, 08:37:09 PM
Gee Ken, how do you really feel.

Say what you want guys- when a so called pretentious, arrogant, pompous so called "climber" comes onto a site that is composed of other climbers with their own experiences (and might I say FAR superior skillsets), and has the audacity to proclaim that cotton is the way to go, then continues on spewing forth his "formal" education credits, it's time for a CALL OUT.

You don't know JACKSQUAT about thermodynamics Luukie. Amongst a shitload of other things. If you just shut your pie-hole no one would be the wiser. Until the day you're freezing your ass off and need to be rescued. Even then, I'm quite sure you'd tell your rescuers that they're doing it wrong.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: perswig on January 18, 2014, 07:29:30 AM
LL, just constructive advice - if terms like conduction, convection, and radiation best make the point you are trying to make, please go ahead and use them!  I bet more than 80% of the people here known enough of these terms to grasp your point.

I dunno, Soon.  Things went a little pear-shaped for me with Ken's "pretentious", got lost totally with "audacity" and then "thermy...no, therma.......wait, maybe theremin?...whatever, that long word in the 2nd paragraph". 

I caught up, sorta, with "shitload" and "pie-hole".  Those are good.
Carry on!

Dale
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: WanderlustMD on January 18, 2014, 10:17:16 AM
Ditto wiregate biners and skinny slings.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 18, 2014, 11:16:53 AM
100% Ken..fuck'm

I know a few people on this site who can join a discussion of thermodynamics  :o

BTW i have an advanced degree in new routing, does that help ?
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: sneoh on January 18, 2014, 02:44:46 PM
All I know is Ken went thermodynamically ballistic :)
Carry on!
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 18, 2014, 03:58:08 PM
Colin Fletcher said the 2nd law of thermodynamics should be  "give your balls some air"
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: Jeff on January 18, 2014, 09:48:08 PM
Colin Fletcher said the 2nd law of thermodynamics should be  "give your balls some air"

Plus a lot more than 1 for that, Strandman ;D LMFAO
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 20, 2014, 01:11:49 AM
Say what you want guys- when a so called pretentious, arrogant, pompous so called "climber" comes onto a site that is composed of other climbers with their own experiences (and might I say FAR superior skillsets), and has the audacity to proclaim that cotton is the way to go, then continues on spewing forth his "formal" education credits, it's time for a CALL OUT.

Pretentious, arrogant... It is what I think... you didn't bring any argument to your point of view.

A sponge??? a sponge absorb the water and keep the water inside the cotton layer. When you climb a route like Lincoln throat pretty fast, your T-shirt is going to be wet, but not the other hydrophobe layer (that means that the wool, which can loss 50% of his isolating capacity by conduction, or any other synthetic isolation, stay dry). You change the T-shirt and you still have a dry layer outside the cotton which is dry. Without sponge, the water migrate from a high concentration inside the first layer to a low concentration on the last layer, it is a flow of water and heat that you lost  As a beginer belay, he is waiting in the cold...wet because the water is not evaporated immediately, but slowly. Whit the cotton, you are dry because the other layer are hydrofuge and the water is absorb by the cotton.

Diver suit are made of polypropylene. The water is trap inside the coat and the cold water can touch the body. It is an application of the sponge technique.

cotton cause many accident due to hypothermia. Particularly those people who hike with jeans or climb without t-shirt.  But if you can take out your transpiration without deterioration of the isolation of the exterior layer..., you use the cotton's water retention as a sponge....an the other layer stay dry. So, as a sponge, cotton is good, as an exterior layer or isolation cotton is very weak. You can use a cotton t-shirt and an hydrophobe t-shirt under thermal imaging cameras and see the heat loss of each.

Further more, I told people to try the cotton before in safe place. For example, bring six people without knowledge of this conversation to Havard cabin, asked them to wait for three hours in the cold without large movement like in a belay. Do the same experience with synthetic layer. You will see who is the fucking fool!!! In very cold day, you can probably measure a significant difference between the cotton (warmer) and the synthetic (hypothermia). You are going to have a deep understanding, not an assumption without understanding of the process.   

Deep understanding and superficial knowledge. It is the debate here. I red the sponge principle in a book from Everest from around 1960. Cotton act as a "water layer" that air can not traverse. an other point of discussion is the use of plastic bag in climbing shoes to prevent the insolation of the boot to be wet. Some agree, some not.

Note cotton can be very dangerous. In a case where it is very windy and you have to keep the wet t-shirt on you, you risk a lot. Other technique are also important to stay warm. In general, a beginer wait an hours at the bottom of the cliff or more. Don't compare yourself with experience climber who start in fifteen minutes. It is why I said previously that some solution are good for some one and not for other.


reference: see the text on familarity heuristic. every body do it, so it most be true... not always true.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 20, 2014, 08:47:06 AM
Shouldn’t be wasting my time here but:

Lucky Luke: water conducts heat away from the body faster than air. A wet t-shirt on warm skin will transfer heat from the skin to cold environment faster than a dry t-shirt, lowering a person’s body temperature quickly.

You can use big words and write long paragraphs.

You’re still wrong about cotton.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: OldEric on January 20, 2014, 09:32:03 AM
Shouldn’t be wasting my time here but:

Lucky Luke: water conducts heat away from the body faster than air. A wet t-shirt on warm skin will transfer heat from the skin to cold environment faster than a dry t-shirt, lowering a person’s body temperature quickly.

You can use big words and write long paragraphs.

You’re still wrong about cotton.

apparently too big and too long for you to comprehend.  LL agrees with most of what you are saying but he has explained how he has made cotton work for him despite that and the advantages doing that provide him.  But you are so stuck in your conventional viewpoints (and  your take on LL and cotton is just the tip of the ice berg as far as that goes) that you can't think outside the box.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 20, 2014, 09:47:58 AM
...advantages doing that provide him.  But you are so stuck in your conventional viewpoints (and  your take on LL and cotton is just the tip of the ice berg as far as that goes) that you can't think outside the box.

It’s assumed advantages. And I get what he is saying. The trade-off is a loss of energy/heat even if it helps keep his outer layers minutely drier...

reference: see the text on familarity heuristic. every body do it, so it most be true... not always true.

It’s not “Familiarity Heuristic”, it’s "Social Proof" that you are referring too;

Social Proof is the idea that an action is correct because other people are doing it. (McCammon, 2002)

Familiarity/Non-event Feedback Loop: McCammon (2002) pointed out that many accidents happen in familiar terrain. People often feel comfortable in familiar areas. They let there guard down or base their current decisions on past experience. The trap here relates to the “Non-event Feedback Loop” in decision making. When decisions result in no accident, people believe that they made the best choice. The person may have simply been “lucky”.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: Pete Jackson on January 20, 2014, 10:23:05 AM
reference: see the text on familarity heuristic. every body do it, so it most be true... not always true.

Everything old is new again. Again, we're talking about heuristic clues. Maybe I should bring up ethics and norms just for good measure. :P

When I go ice climbing, I bring a cotton t-shirt. I leave it in the car with a full nalgene and change in to it right before I hydrate.

I carry two synthetic base layers: I change from my soaked one in to a dry one at the base of the route, after the long hike in. Yes: I go down to bare skin in freezing temps, but only once, and only at the part of the trip where I am likely to be warmest (after hiking miles uphill with a heavy pack).

As was mentioned before in this thread: the best way to carry a lighter load into the backcountry is to lose weight. If you can lose ten pounds and still be healthy, you can carry an extra t-shirt or two, cotton or otherwise. If you are already in peak shape and are trying to shave weight, I'd steal some hints from the ultralight-backpacker movement. Start with the Ray Jardine site: (remember the guy who invented SLCDs?) http://www.rayjardine.com/index.shtml

Some things the crazies who practice ultralight backpacking do that might be useful:

1. Don't take a multitool, take a razor blade.
2. Lighten up your medical kit.
3. Take everything out of the original containers and use lightweight baggies or small stuff sacks.
4. Trade your heavy fleece hat for the lightest warm one you can find. I wear the Mountain Gear windstopper one that weighs almost nothing.

When you get back from a climbing trip, dump your pack on the ground in your shop and sort your gear in to piles: 1) stuff you used 2) stuff you didn't use and 3) stuff you didn't use, but is emergency gear that you're taking next time no matter what. Then make some decisions.

I think LL's take on cotton is strange: but it looks like he's thought it through and developed the technique over a long period of time. I am glad to see he warned people off of it as not recommended. Please don't haul 10 cotton t-shirts around in winter and change them every couple hours unless you really understand what you're doing. However, I agree with LL on one point: leaving gear behind to shave weight on winter trips is risky. Much better to shave weight from your body if you can.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 20, 2014, 11:07:59 AM
backpackinglight.com is better than the Jardine site imo for ultralight hiking gear tips and methods.

For the people recommending losing weight: I always have between 10 and 40 pounds I could stand to lose because I'm retarded. Anyway, I got into UL/SUL backpacking several years back and took part of my kit on a climbing trip for an alpine route. I was showing off my expensive cuben fiber tarp and other high tech stuff and one of my buddies says, "John that stuff looks pretty nice and all, but wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to just lose 20 pounds."  :P


Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 20, 2014, 11:29:18 AM
apparently too big and too long for you to comprehend.  LL agrees with most of what you are saying but he has explained how he has made cotton work for him despite that and the advantages doing that provide him.

thank you Old Eric

safety first. open the way to solid discussion.

Thank you also to Pete Jackson. giving the credit to an other even if you disagree or agree that it can work for other, even if you not use the technique, is important for the climbing community.   



Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: frik on January 20, 2014, 11:35:56 AM
Other than the weight loss thing, which is true. I think the best way to shed freight is just to get a lot better at climbing... especially being faster. The more confident you are, the faster you are, the more crap you can/should leave at home. I would be very cautious about looking for insights from the light weight hiking crowd... follow their advice and soon you'll be drilling lightening holes in your carrabiners and replacing your harness with a swami made with surveyors tape. 
 
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 20, 2014, 11:36:20 AM
LL why don't you just use a vapor barrier shirt and keep a dry shirt for camp? Lighter than 10 t shirts, and works better if that's the method you're after.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: frik on January 20, 2014, 11:52:35 AM
JB; Do not argue with LL, he has a Master's degree in Biology !

It is a fruitless endeavor.

 
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: pappy on January 20, 2014, 12:07:45 PM
I would be very cautious about looking for insights from the light weight hiking crowd...

The ultra light crowd leave very little margin for error; every spring when a storm hits the southern AT or
 southern CA aspiring thru hikers get in trouble, especially those who just go to the websites and follow things religiously without knowing what an April snowstorm on St. Jacinto is going to be like (I found out, we got lost on the north side in a storm, started into hyperthermia, but fortunately found a closed YMCA camp and broke into the director's cabin. '81, I think the statute of limitations has expired).
But we did a lot of the ultra light stuff even then, cut the tags out of our clothes, and like Pete mentioned, repackaged 6 mos. worth of food into baggies. We would go to the grocery store at midnight after splitting 5-6 bottles of wine between four of us, so my GF and I were pretty lit and would just buy whatever seemed might be interesting. Months later we would get our pre-packaged box of food with bags of stuff we didn't recognize with no directions, so it was always, 'WTF is this, and what do we do with it?' It led to some interesting meals.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 20, 2014, 12:45:56 PM
You can go pretty light these days (backpacking that is) and still be as prepared as most traditional backpackers. I'm down to about a 6 pound base weight for 3 season backpacking in New England, and there are tons more people on the trail more likely to get into deep doo doo than me. Of course that's only my opinion.

Anyway, I cut corners the most on the safety kit but I never carried much of that anyway even when I was lugging around the kitchen sink.

A lot of thru hikers on the AT in springtime are very inexperienced. But maybe that was your point?
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 20, 2014, 12:55:11 PM
JB; Do not argue with LL, he has a Master's degree in Biology !

It is a fruitless endeavor.

I thought his degree had something to do with snow crystal formation on the spotted salamander hive?
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: Flotsam on January 20, 2014, 05:52:14 PM
For beer I've gone from packing glass to cans now that the canned options has increased. 


Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 20, 2014, 06:38:47 PM
Right flotsam... and if your aid climbing, the bottles are easy to break.

I agree with frik- get fast, leave shit home.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 20, 2014, 07:39:02 PM
LL why don't you just use a vapor barrier shirt and keep a dry shirt for camp? Lighter than 10 t shirts, and works better if that's the method you're after.

As I said, and as old people know, I used for long time silk shirt. Silk act a little bit like a vapor barier. Silk is more permeable and some people can try an aluminium foll or plastic  bag as vapor barier. But there is a problem. When you sweat a lot, the water condense on the vapor barier and fall to the ground. It is like if you pee in your pan.

I don't sugest any body to try the vapor barier like those we found in our house. sponge is a lot better.

Yes the cotton t-shirt is like a vapor barier. As the cotton keep the water close to the body, the skin "produce" less water and you most have a way to eliminate the extra heat that you produce (by the head for example)
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 21, 2014, 09:25:47 AM
Um... you may want to read about Warmlite/Stephenson products (made in NH) they know a bit about vapor barrier .
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 21, 2014, 07:19:57 PM
Um... you may want to read about Warmlite/Stephenson products (made in NH) they know a bit about vapor barrier .

Yes, it could be interesting to have comment on vapor barrier from them

As I understand it a vapor barier is: "A vapor barrier (or vapour barrier) is often used to refer to any material for damp proofing, typically a plastic or foil sheet, that resists diffusion of moisture through wall, ceiling and floor assemblies of buildings and of packaging. Technically, many of these materials are only vapor retarders as they have varying degrees of permeability". Cotton most be, in the way I use it, as a vapor retarders. The good time to change the t-shirt is a little bit tricky.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: sneoh on January 21, 2014, 07:35:48 PM
Champ, retarder or not, I think the crux issue is cotton fibers can absorb many times their own weight of water.  Most people do not like a wet, clammy piece of clothing next to our skin while out and about.  You are clearly not like most so if you insist cotton works for you, then who is to argue? 

Oh, teenages wear flimsy shoes and short skirts in the winter not because they are "adapted" to the cold.  No, it is because other things are more important to them than being adeqautely dressed for the cold.  How come you do not know this already? 
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 21, 2014, 09:34:07 PM
Champ, retarder or not, I think the crux issue is cotton fibers can absorb many times their own weight of water.

if they absorb many time there own weight of water, they keep the water inside the tissue. If your first layer is hydrophobe, that means that all the water will go into the cotton. If your third layer is hydrophobe, that means that all the waer will stay for a while in the cotton. So, you keep the water inside two dry layer. Why your skin or the isolation of the outside layer can be wet?

I suggest that you try it a couple of time and after that, you will decide if you use it or not. I remembered that I was septic too. My partner stop at the top of the hike to the cliff, remove his pack and his jacket, remove the t-shirt, took a towel to remove the water on his body and put new t-shirt and his jacket. I began to red on the subject and found article on a book on the everest. They was doing that in an expedition. And I try it.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 21, 2014, 10:07:10 PM
Quote from: lucky luke link=topic=8257.msg64264#msg642
I remembered that I was septic too. My partner stop at the top of the hike to the cliff, remove his pack and his jacket, remove the t-shirt, took a towel to remove the water on his body and put new t-shirt and his jacket. I began to red on the subject and found article on a book on the everest. They was doing that in an expedition. And I try it.

I know I am not fluent in any other language, but your mis-use of words like “septic” instead of “skeptic” lead to some funny interpretations...

Anyways, stripping down to skin in the winter and towel drying is something only Ron Burgandy would do...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vp8U85dNsTQ/UQhDfRwqeqI/AAAAAAAAAOA/krpDzHZQUY8/s1600/ron-burgundy.jpg
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: sneoh on January 21, 2014, 10:08:48 PM
Champ, the fact that it is desirable to go half-naked in the cold and change the wet T-shirt means it is not a good idea to wear a wet T-shirt for long, or for the descent.  Besides, packing more T shirts and a towel to dry off with is not a way to cut weight! 
I always pack dry, clean stuff and usually leave it in the car (day trip).  During warmer months, I sometimes pack a cotton or cotton blend shirt along if I will be out for long and expect to get quite wet from rain or sweat/humidity.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 21, 2014, 11:06:16 PM
I was wondering if anyone had tips for cutting weight from your backcountry setup that you were particularly proud of?

this is my tips to stay warm in backcountry. For me, Mt Washington is not really backcountry because there is a meteorological station at the top and a train.

it is dangerous to hang out in the cold any way. if you don't want to try it, I don't care.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: ed_esmond on January 22, 2014, 07:31:49 AM
As I said, and as old people know, I used for long time silk shirt. Silk act a little bit like a vapor barier. Silk is more permeable and some people can try an aluminium foll or plastic  bag as vapor barier. But there is a problem. When you sweat a lot, the water condense on the vapor barier and fall to the ground. It is like if you pee in your pan.
I don't sugest any body to try the vapor barier like those we found in our house. sponge is a lot better.
Yes the cotton t-shirt is like a vapor barier. As the cotton keep the water close to the body, the skin "produce" less water and you most have a way to eliminate the extra heat that you produce (by the head for example)

lucky,

you're a funny guy…

i do, however; think you're missing something here.  the aluminum foil is suposed to be used as a hat (that's: chapeau) not as a shirt (chemise…)

since they both begin with ch it's easy to see how you'd confuse them….

sincerely,

loopy eddie

ps. "septic" for "skeptic,"  that's funny also…

pps. jbrochu, you are so missing an opportunity to post an animated clip of some hottie in a wet tee-shirt (think cold, wet tee shirt….)
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 22, 2014, 09:50:40 AM
i agree ED.. all this talk about hot,sweaty, T shirts is getting me going   ;D   

And what about the old style cotton fishnet t's  ??    NICE
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: OldEric on January 22, 2014, 10:02:55 AM
i agree ED.. all this talk about hot,sweaty, T shirts is getting me going   ;D   

And what about the old style cotton fishnet t's  ??    NICE

First time I hiked Washington in winter - Auto Road in 1967 - I wore cotton fisnet top and bottom underwear.  State of the art under the wool outer layers.  Worked fine.  I guess.

The point  is that there is not a one size fits all answer.  If the topic is about asking people how they do something and someone comes up with an unconventional response - well you asked for ideas.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: M_Sprague on January 22, 2014, 11:01:36 AM
Eric, I am not sure I needed the image in my mind of you hiking up Washington in fishnet  :o
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 22, 2014, 11:55:38 AM
i agree ED.. all this talk about hot,sweaty, T shirts is getting me going   ;D   

And what about the old style cotton fishnet t's  ??    NICE

First time I hiked Washington in winter - Auto Road in 1967 - I wore cotton fisnet top and bottom underwear.  State of the art under the wool outer layers.  Worked fine.  I guess.

The point  is that there is not a one size fits all answer. If the topic is about asking people how they do something and someone comes up with an unconventional response - well you asked for ideas.

Except the unconventional response in this case doesn't address the question at all. The question was about cutting weight, and the response would cause a significant increase in weight. Also, if he's sweating so much that soaking outer garments is a serious concern then he's wearing too much stuff.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on January 22, 2014, 12:17:46 PM
Except the unconventional response in this case doesn't address the question at all. The question was about cutting weight, and the response would cause a significant increase in weight. Also, if he's sweating so much that soaking outer garments is a serious concern then he's wearing too much stuff.

surprisingly it cut wait. As I got a benefit from using cotton, I can bring less clothes to stay warm. if you lost fifty percent of your isolation by damp clothes...you most have an other shirt to stay warm. T-shirt is less bulky to stuff in a pack sack and you can cut weight. Better night and less food have to be take in account.

Wearing too much means that you need space in your pack sack to stuff your clothes. But you can also loose heat by exposing the cotton t-shirt to the cold.

For multi layer, if you use four pile of a same tissue or one large of the same tissue, there is not a lot of different. If you use one tissue who act like a sponge, and other like isolation and other like skin protector against damp, a windbreaker, etc... you are more adaptable to any changing weather condition like the one that can happen on Mt Washington.

safety first.

note; I agree that there is more trick about how to stay dry by wearing less clothes. Not many people know that the body take at least twenty minutes to react to cold weather. If at the beginning you wear less clothes, your body will produce warm for that temperature, and after you can pile more clothes to be comfortable. If you begin with a lot of clothes, at each times you will remove a piece, you are going to froze because your body will take and other twenty minutes to acclimate to the new environment.     
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 22, 2014, 01:11:03 PM
If safety was the only concern, no one would go outside. it's a matter of judgement.

If your sweating enough to soak your clothes, then you are wearing to much stuff.

The best way to cut out weight (the original topic) is to carry less and move faster. Depending on many things, this can change the safety factor quite a bit...

Ya takes Ya chances
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 22, 2014, 05:37:19 PM
surprisingly it cut wait. As I got a benefit from using cotton, I can bring less clothes to stay warm...

No. Adding a wet t-shirt into your pack does not cut weight. You are now carrying a heavy frozen wet t-shirt... I am still wearing my one quick drying synthetic t-shirt.

Not many people know that the body take at least twenty minutes to react to cold weather. If at the beginning you wear less clothes, your body will produce warm for that temperature, and after you can pile more clothes to be comfortable. If you begin with a lot of clothes, at each times you will remove a piece, you are going to froze because your body will take and other twenty minutes to acclimate to the new environment.     

Did you pick 20 minutes out of thin air? My body reacts to cold weather the second I get out of the car in the parking lot of Pinkham... The point of starting the hike with less clothes is you will warm up by moving in the first 20 minutes... and if you are over dressed you can get damp from sweat early in the hike... Your body does not "acclimatize" every time you change layers...
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 22, 2014, 06:28:07 PM
No. Adding a wet t-shirt into your pack does not cut weight.

(http://unrulybodies.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/well-thats-just-like-your-opinion-man-gif-the-dude-lebowski.gif?w=500&h=235)
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: JBro on January 22, 2014, 06:33:09 PM
pps. jbrochu, you are so missing an opportunity to post an animated clip of some hottie in a wet tee-shirt (think cold, wet tee shirt….)

Ed, you have a lot of good ideas in the field of animated gifs. I think you might be a natural!
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: M_Sprague on January 22, 2014, 07:00:56 PM
Nobody seems to have mentioned the 'leave-it-behind-as-you-no-longer-need-it' technique. You may as well take advantage of the Mount Washington wind. Throw the wet T-shirt up in the air and bam, out of sight, out of mind. Some rodent will be glad to find the remains in the spring for bedding materials. Hiking poles, ice ax, water bottle, pack can all go at the right time. Ideally, within a quarter mile of Pinkham you could be down to your fishnet stockings, cell phone and car keys.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DaveR on January 22, 2014, 07:07:39 PM
A great example of how wet cotton just clings to the skin!
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: M_Sprague on January 22, 2014, 07:11:25 PM
Maybe Luke is on to something.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: DLottmann on January 22, 2014, 07:46:15 PM
Looking at a wet t-shirt is making me feel a little warmer... I retract my previous arguments.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: ed_esmond on January 23, 2014, 07:58:07 AM
A great example […] skin!

dave, 

now that's what i'm talking about… 

if you study the photo very, very closely, it's pretty obvious she's cold. 

she's also looks pretty "fast and light…"  call me "old school,"  but i wonder if she's packing one of those "SPOT" things that seem to getting a lot of people into trouble now-a-days.

Nobody seems to have mentioned the 'leave-it-behind-as-you-no-longer-need-it' technique. […] Ideally, within a quarter mile of Pinkham you could be down to your fishnet stockings, cell phone and car keys.

marky, many great ideas here, but it unravels for me at the "down to your fishnet stockings…" part. my legs just aren't that great...

Ed, you have a lot of good ideas in the field of animated gifs. I think you might be a natural!

jb, thanks for the compliment, my wife is always saying to me, "you are sooo full of it…"

ed e
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: strandman on January 24, 2014, 06:31:10 PM
So..we got Weitzler nude...Mark almost nude.... eric in fishnet  or the hot chic in a T shirt..MMMMMM...I pick....
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: ridgerunner on February 07, 2014, 04:10:52 AM
So I am still stuck in France, getting bored, and I have been "absorbing" all this material, on a thread started by asking how to cut weight on your kit, followed through with carrying less water by pre-hydrating (makes sense to me : I do it) and moving on to carrying cotton T-shirts. So am I right in assuming that combining the two, you could theoretically not carry any water bottle but just suck up on the soaked Tees when you change ? Class ? Anyone ? If this topic is covered in MTFOTH, my bad because I only have the first edition.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: lucky luke on February 10, 2014, 05:09:57 AM
So I am still stuck in France, getting bored, and I have been "absorbing" all this material, on a thread started by asking how to cut weight on your kit, followed through with carrying less water by pre-hydrating (makes sense to me : I do it) and moving on to carrying cotton T-shirts. So am I right in assuming that combining the two, you could theoretically not carry any water bottle but just suck up on the soaked Tees when you change ? Class ? Anyone ? If this topic is covered in MTFOTH, my bad because I only have the first edition.

One day, my t shirt was so wet that it had been possible!!! it was a snowy day around 32. I just had a kiwi, which is similar to cotton with a little water protection, and my t-shirt. The next step was to ski naked and as I am not as beautifull as the wet t-shirt women above. I kept my equipment. The next morning, the temperature drop to single digit under zero. The ice on my t-shirt take three days to melt at home, inside the house.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: carp on February 14, 2014, 10:17:38 PM
My approach to being light is:

Whiskey is lighter than beer.

If you bring a bigger pack you will fill it. (My winter packs are 25L - 35L).

The more you know, the less you need, and vice versa.

Avoid anything made by Coleman.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 15, 2014, 07:13:34 AM
Way BINTD about a million years ago I did the extra dry cotton T shirt thing. changed into  a fresh one @ the base of the climb. It works well for a day trip but the idea of carrying enough dry cotton arround for a multi day trip is pretty darn out there......   These days I go all synthetic and it works better for me than the old cotton routine.... I try not to do multi day. I generaly keep moveing till I get back to the car.

I carry 2 headlamps. The fastest way to reload batteries is to grab a headlamp that is allready loaded. I use the cheapo depot energizer lights. they work great and you can buy 2 or 3 for the price of one Petzle. I have had the petzle and they can break just as easy as a cheapo. Annother advantage of two hedlamps is my partners often seem to forget theirs.   In a real pinch I have worn two headlamps for leading hard @ night.   I always carry at 4 pairs of gloves. do not always use them all but also still have all my fingers.
One ultra light pair of gloves for the approach.
two pairs of sensitive but reasonably warm EMS work gloves for leading.
One pair of warm synthetic gloves for the end of the day or emergencys.

cut down from 8 screamers to 4 then quick draws and a few slings.

7.8 mm ropes. I went for 70m  against my own advice because I thought they would be an advantage for raps @ the Lake. also planning on useing a single strand for some outings. So far I have only used that advantage once and the rest of the time all that extra rope is a complete PINTA If i had enough $$$  i would have a whole quiver or ropes to taylor to the day.

70m 7.8s for certain climbs.
60m 7.8s for most multi pitch ice climbs.
70m super skinny single for light alpine.
70m fat for some sport and cragging.
60m fat for most sport and cragging.
Title: Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 15, 2014, 07:14:39 AM
The best way to cut weight for gully climbs is to get comfortable soloing grade 3.