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General => Ice & Winter Climbing => Topic started by: lucky luke on March 03, 2013, 10:30:58 am

Title: wet avalanches
Post by: lucky luke on March 03, 2013, 10:30:58 am
just for more informations:

http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/wet_snow_avalanche.htm

The last report on avy danger from mt washington describe more the condition, and it is more usefull for me. In one of them, we see the breaking point between the schrubbs of one of them. Because the trees is warmer than the snow, it is an increasing factor of instability in wet avalanches, not in dry one. Personally, I decide to go to the gunks next week end to rock climb because I am scare by wet avalanches.

See also : http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/depth_hoar.htm

one importaqnt point: to be able to localize bed surface: http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/bed_surface.htm I suggest that the ravine most be identify as old bed surface because avalanches happens mostly in the same area.

Finally, some thing on metamorphism:  "In other words, small, subtle changes in temperature, pressure, humidity and temperature gradient can have a dramatic effect on the type of snow crystal that forms. " (http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/metamorphism_snow.htm)

Don't be foul. One or two times per years, we have, in quebec, snow storm of two or three feet of snow with wind as strong as what they have on the alpen garden. I climbed for twenty five years. Pratical experience, as a feeling that you are in danger, and theorical knowledge, as I know every thing on avalanche and the other don't, is two different think. I can't teach you my experience...you have to built your own experience by going in the mountain. 
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: DLottmann on March 03, 2013, 09:36:22 pm
Some good info Lucky, I love the Depth Hoar animation...

except trees are trigger points in dry snow slab avalanches as well. Careful with the generalizations. I’m copying what I removed from the other post regarding some stuff you said here, as it didn’t belong there;


Did I say, like Dman, that considerable danger wednesday is more dangerous than moderate danger on friday, so we can go climbing?

“Considerable" Danger is more dangerous than “Moderate”. You are trying to disagree with the entire North American Avalanche Danger Scale accepted by the entire North American continent... except you.

(Sigh)... Champ, I agree that training & practice up there during elevated conditions is important. I have never said you shouldn’t go up there in Considerable or High danger, but I have said you should not enter a start zone of a major avalanche path in those conditions. I took 11 students into the ravine today while it was rated “Considerable”... but we did not kick steps up the headwall... We did find unstable snow below Left Gully, resulting in some CTV and CTE results, and then pulled of a RB3, which was pretty damn cool to see. We were on a small test slope with little consequence, and I’ll post more details tomorrow night when I have time.

Fifteen inches of snow.... it is obvious that two or three days later it will be more dangerous than in the middle of the snowstorm wednesday. What was the avy danger between wednesday and friday? Better not know. With the raising temperature, the transformation of the snow pack will be faster. It is not just powder snow that we will have, but heavy wet snow. In my opinion, the most dangerous type of avalanche. Slow and so strong.

You need to stop making this generalization as it is totally false. Whether or not the snowpack is more stable 2-3 days after a storm is dependent on more conditions then I’ll go into right now, but “generally” speaking, we are in a Maritime snow climate where avalanche danger can rise AND fall quickly. MOST of our avalanches are “direct-action”, which means they happen DURING the storms, not many days later, like in a Continental Snowpack (Rockies).

Reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=0Bpscs7Gqb8C&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=snow+climates&source=bl&ots=vUzaLpbmw9&sig=6Ji3r99TQMbU-VpPfv7ikKphaLs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mQk0UZaTJYTD0gHSroCACA&ved=0CGcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=snow%20climates&f=false

You also assumed the warm temps you must be experiencing at low elevation somewhere would produce wet heavy snow... if you’ve been reading the bulletins or weather we have had in the last two weeks it has been consistently cold and our snow has been extremely light density (5%-6%) type snow... super light and fluffy...

So please.... please, stop making these false generalizations. Your heart is in the right place but you talk out of your ass.
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: lucky luke on March 04, 2013, 10:43:44 am
So please.... please, stop making these false generalizations. Your heart is in the right place but you talk out of your ass.

As for the evolution of a snow pack, progress and other chemical and physical reaction are far behound your understanding...and are not wrote in an avalanche book, we can't have any discussion on who is the more stupid.

I agree that many people in the general population, scare of there shade, with a large ego are better to follow your course than to go alone in the cliff to show off...and be trap some where.  You take a professorale attitude to show that you had a lot of knowledge...and you most have some because you go often in the mountain...that help for client scare of there shade.

But for climber, it is better not to ear from you. Generalizations is all what you have when yo are in front of a slab and you have to decide to go in the middle, the right, the left or to bail, to rope up, anchor or stay close togheter. I never ever trust the avy danger in that situation, considering that the danger is extreme and take the best decision with general rules or thumbs rules. It was not of any help in those condition to know that the water can be in one of his three phase. Phase that you probably don't know anything on it.     
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: JakeDatc on March 04, 2013, 11:46:05 am
Champ you need your own blog to vent your incoherent ramblings... 

http://wordpress.com/ 

or

http://canadianiceclimbing.ca/forum/

http://willgadd.com/x-vs-t-why-the-old-x-technique-is-inferior/    will gadd says X Technique is inferior!
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: sneoh on March 04, 2013, 12:12:00 pm
... in those condition to know that the water can be in one of his three phase. Phase that you probably don't know anything on it.     
I have heard references to "triple phase" of water in nature before. 
I have often questioned it, believing it as the mis-characterization of a different phenomenon as opposed to water actually in triple phase in nature.
Triple phase exists when "Under the singular conditions of temperature and pressure where liquid water, gaseous water and hexagonal ice stably coexist, there is a 'triple point' where both the boiling point of water and melting point of ice are equal.".
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html#trip

In nature, as opposed to in a lab, when can one find the conditions required for triple phase to exist?
29.96" of Hg is 0.101 MPa.
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: darwined on March 04, 2013, 02:33:09 pm
So please.... please, stop making these false generalizations. Your heart is in the right place but you talk out of your ass.

As for the evolution of a snow pack, progress and other chemical and physical reaction are far behound your understanding...and are not wrote in an avalanche book, we can't have any discussion on who is the more stupid.

I agree that many people in the general population, scare of there shade, with a large ego are better to follow your course than to go alone in the cliff to show off...and be trap some where.  You take a professorale attitude to show that you had a lot of knowledge...and you most have some because you go often in the mountain...that help for client scare of there shade.

But for climber, it is better not to ear from you. Generalizations is all what you have when yo are in front of a slab and you have to decide to go in the middle, the right, the left or to bail, to rope up, anchor or stay close togheter. I never ever trust the avy danger in that situation, considering that the danger is extreme and take the best decision with general rules or thumbs rules. It was not of any help in those condition to know that the water can be in one of his three phase. Phase that you probably don't know anything on it.   
http://youtu.be/24mIbRRaUV0
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: danf on March 04, 2013, 09:39:43 pm
I can't believe I'm replying.....  ::)

Luke, through all of your hard to understand rambling that I've managed to digest in the few months I've been here, I get the feeling that you advocate no formal education for any kind of mountaineering. Unless, of course, it's through FOTH and then its ok. Instead you think it should be learned through trial and error on the mountain. Is that correct? Because if it is, in my opinion, that would be like taking a 16 year old kid who has never ridden in a car, having him read a drivers manual and then turning him loose on a 5 lane interstate right at rush hour. What could go wrong?

Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: DLottmann on March 04, 2013, 10:00:37 pm
It's "Scared of your shadow", not "Scared of your shade", and I encourage my students to travel in elevated conditions. It was Considerable this weekend...

My course this weekend;

http://davidlottmann.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/aiare-1-avalanche-course-3113-3313/

No one felt I was teaching fear. I am not calling you stupid, and I'm sure you might have some deeper understanding of chemicals than I do, I am certain you do not understand snow science as deeply as I do as you repeatedly make statements that are easily rebuffed and explained incorrect.

Again, I get it. Experience is as important as knowledge. Both are important.

Danf nailed it... you have an issue with "formal" education.

Somewhere along the line you worked with a guide who "taught fear"...

Hell, my first 3 years teaching avalanche courses = teaching fear....

I learned that was wrong... to ski powder one must go out on Considerable days... but one MUST understand WHERE they can go on those days... that's all... not "stay home" or "don't go", but "where should we go?"

Unfortunately, in general, ice climbers lack the understanding of snow stability that most back-country skiiers have, especially here, in MWV.... FACT

Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: lucky luke on March 05, 2013, 02:48:44 am
Luke, through all of your hard to understand rambling that I've managed to digest in the few months I've been here, I get the feeling that you advocate no formal education for any kind of mountaineering. Unless, of course, it's through FOTH and then its ok. Instead you think it should be learned through trial and error on the mountain. Is that correct?

The death of a climber always make me angry. I feel without resources and guilty to did nothing when it was time. I begun to talk about safety for that reason. In Quebec, for three years, we didn't have any death. I was very agressive in my writing because they bring people to follow a set of rules and think that they are safe. I wrote again last year because there was  three death. Actually, it is calm.

Formal or informal education, I am for both. I don't think that because I critic Dman similarity with some Quebec mentality make me for or against formal education. As I said in the recent avalache thread, I think that FOTH, to the fifth edition, try to bring togheter all the knowledge, good and bad, that the climber old and young use or used. For example, they say that it is dangerous to thread a sling true the loop of a stopper. That you are better to use a carabiner.

Today, and it is what I think of Dman, they won't say that it is dangerous...they will say don't do that. If you have an accident your stupid (in general, those who accuse other of stupid have not a lot of place in my heart, you understand that dman accuse a women in mt jackson because she didn't bring a map!!!).   

But if you are a climber and you run out of carabiner for many reasons...are you going to tie a sling? And if you have to do so...look on the fifth version of FOTH, they will show you a way that can probably save your life.

The problem is that the course is not a collection of techniques that can save your life, but a state-of-the-arttechnique that work for you...but maybe not for an other climber or situation. For example the triangle technique in ice is a state of the art technique (the highest level of development at a particular time), but I climbed at Frankeinstein three weeks ago and there was a layer of ice over snow or roten ice and the monkey hang technique was a lot more safer.

A collection of techniques...you must climbed to learn it and trained to master it. Don't be confused with a collection of thing that you can't use because it is completely not climbing, some course that gave you an impression of knowledge but you have to climb on low avalanche avy.   


Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: lucky luke on March 05, 2013, 02:57:10 am
See also : http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/depth_hoar.htm

As some people look interested by the triple phase of water, and had the answer

here is an other question, little bit difficult. On the site quote above, they said that the round grain methamorphose into pyramidale crystal (faceted cup shape grain) Why this happen? and can you associate your explication with an other phenomena where water is involve? 

This is an hard one...  not sure if it is usefull...but we will look more intelligent.
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: kenreville on March 05, 2013, 07:22:49 am
"...but we will look more intelligent."

More intelligent? It is not possible.
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: DLottmann on March 05, 2013, 08:14:25 am
I never accuse, just look for “lessons learned”.

Hiking without a map & compass in a whiteout = unprepared.

SNOW NERD ALERT!

The answer to your Depth Hoar question is during a strong TG vapor moves from areas of relatively high pressure to areas of low pressure, and when it occurs through sublimation at the grain level that moves mass from the convex areas of the grain to the concave sections of the grain. There’s some other stuff in there but that’s the gist.
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: JBro on March 05, 2013, 10:09:46 am
I'm kind of getting bored with the trolling the troll so I'll let this be my final statement on the matter...

(http://i47.tinypic.com/288s8bn.jpg)
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: lucky luke on March 05, 2013, 11:23:57 am
The answer to your Depth Hoar question is during a strong TG vapor moves from areas of relatively high pressure to areas of low pressure, and when it occurs through sublimation at the grain level that moves mass from the convex areas of the grain to the concave sections of the grain. There’s some other stuff in there but that’s the gist.

WRONG! I was sure that you didn't know the answer

Your explication is the explicaton of metamorphism, which create round shape crystal as the water is adsorbed (look at that word, sure yopu don't know it...it is write corectly) to the particules.

It won't create hoar, pyramidale crystal (faceted cup shape grain). You and jbrochu go well togheter.

And you don't know what is hoar ice too.     
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: DLottmann on March 05, 2013, 12:00:01 pm
OK. I'm done.
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: DaveR on March 05, 2013, 12:15:41 pm
The answer to your Depth Hoar question is during a strong TG vapor moves from areas of relatively high pressure to areas of low pressure, and when it occurs through sublimation at the grain level that moves mass from the convex areas of the grain to the concave sections of the grain. There’s some other stuff in there but that’s the gist.

WRONG! I was sure that you didn't know the answer

Your explication is the explicaton of metamorphism, which create round shape crystal as the water is adsorbed (look at that word, sure yopu don't know it...it is write corectly) to the particules.

It won't create hoar, pyramidale crystal (faceted cup shape grain). You and jbrochu go well togheter.

And you don't know what is hoar ice too.   

I have not been on this forum in over a year but had to re register just to ask you one question Luke. How old are you? You think you are really smart but your attitude makes you sound like a spoiled 8yo!

DMan,
Just ignore him and maybe he will go off in the corner and pout. Avalanche forcasting may not be perfect but I will continue to pay attention to it. Dead is permanent but so is the mountain and it will be there tomorow when conditions are better and I am enjoying the day.
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: lucky luke on March 05, 2013, 01:02:44 pm
I have not been on this forum in over a year but had to re register just to ask you one question Luke. How old are you? You think you are really smart but your attitude makes you sound like a spoiled 8yo!

An 8yo didn't have my knowledge. I think that Jbrochu post is more of a 8Yo than me.

Always remember that it is not what you know that will kill you, it is what you think you know.

The answer is the same as we have in a wall (see: http://www.conservationphysics.org/condens/condens1.php). The snow is an isolation to the ground. So you have a temperature gradient (it is the reason why the outside temperature most be between minus 2 to 15 centigrade), a dew point where the water condense and froze and an evaporation zone. As the dew point is a line, it is where most of the vapor water will condense and froze in a pyramidal shape.

A temperature gradient is also seen in clouds. Stratus clouds form a layer in the sky in rainy days. It is very different than cumulo nimbus (thunder storm clouds). It is when you have a grey sky every where.

That was the answer. But because you read think on internet without deep understanding, you just repeat what you read here and there. I can ask what happen when the pressure gradient is lower close to the ground and higher outside, you won't know the answer too (when the water melt, the run off go to the ground and follow the hill to the bottom. This create a suction and a low pressure. If the pressure above the snow is higher, the humid air will enter into the layers of snow...condensation to the snow and changing the density of it. 

Do you kill people because you don't know???? metamorphism explain why the avy danger most behigher two or three days after a fifteen inches snow fall (thinking that there is exception too). But you think that you know. To climb multi route in those condition, I am pratically sure that James took your words.   
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: DaveR on March 05, 2013, 01:07:21 pm
YAWN!!
Wake me up later.
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: JakeDatc on March 05, 2013, 01:15:39 pm
I have not been on this forum in over a year but had to re register just to ask you one question Luke. How old are you? You think you are really smart but your attitude makes you sound like a spoiled 8yo!

An 8yo didn't have my knowledge. I think that Jbrochu post is more of a 8Yo than me.

Always remember that it is not what you know that will kill you, it is what you think you know.

The answer is the same as we have in a wall (see: http://www.conservationphysics.org/condens/condens1.php). The snow is an isolation to the ground. So you have a temperature gradient (it is the reason why the outside temperature most be between minus 2 to 15 centigrade), a dew point where the water condense and froze and an evaporation zone. As the dew point is a line, it is where most of the vapor water will condense and froze in a pyramidal shape.

A temperature gradient is also seen in clouds. Stratus clouds form a layer in the sky in rainy days. It is very different than cumulo nimbus (thunder storm clouds). It is when you have a grey sky every where.

That was the answer. But because you read think on internet without deep understanding, you just repeat what you read here and there. I can ask what happen when the pressure gradient is lower close to the ground and higher outside, you won't know the answer too (when the water melt, the run off go to the ground and follow the hill to the bottom. This create a suction and a low pressure. If the pressure above the snow is higher, the humid air will enter into the layers of snow...condensation to the snow and changing the density of it. 

Do you kill people because you don't know???? metamorphism explain why the avy danger most behigher two or three days after a fifteen inches snow fall (thinking that there is exception too). But you think that you know. To climb multi route in those condition, I am pratically sure that James took your words.   

You are already skating on thin ice dipshit.   

va te faire foutre
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: sneoh on March 05, 2013, 11:10:56 pm
To climb multi route in those condition, I am practically sure that James took your words.   
You may be pissed by what you read, Champ, but this is over the line.  I hardly think you have sufficient evidence to substantiate this statement,.  It is this kind of extrapolation (or generalization as DMan puts it) that turns people off.
You sound like you appreciate science so you know of the pitfall of overextending one's interpretation of observations and limited facts.



Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: DaveR on March 06, 2013, 05:29:35 am
To climb multi route in those condition, I am pratically sure that James took your words.   

You Luke are an asshole!! This comment is WAY over the top!!

Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: lucky luke on March 06, 2013, 11:46:43 am
You may be pissed by what you read, Champ, but this is over the line.  I hardly think you have sufficient evidence to substantiate this statement,.  It is this kind of extrapolation (or generalization as DMan puts it) that turns people off.

I appologized for people close to the climber. I hope that they will understand that the book accident in north american mountaineering was not write for previous accident but for the accident that will happen tomorow. I respect the climber and I hope that it's memory will help even one climber to save his life. The accident report on that book save my life many time and I have a truly and very high respect to those who decide to have an honest consideration to the friend of the person trap in an accident.

When you said that a beginer climb 5.9 in rock...that statement means that if you climb sam swam song at Canon, a 5.6, you are lest than a beginer. As a young climber want to be recognize by his community (it is not my case), he will do it as a warm up and won't take all the necessary precaution to climb safe. Is it the climber who think that he his over is ability or is it those who said that a beginer climb 5.9...

For me it is clear...when some influence other to do some think that can threating there life, they are more guilty than the climber. In the old time, they always say to look at the forecast three days before going to climb a route. In accident INAM, 2012 p17, 'the climbers had chosen to climb in a period immediadetly following new snowfall that totaled [...] 12 inches." I have photo of the ground, and avy analyse of the day and previous day. personally, my decision was to not going climbing on that day on Mt Washington.

A word for Old Eric: it is not the place to talk about that and I respect the family on that point. There is no good time.  When you climb in the old time, mt washington was considered as a very high chalenge, today, it is a practice to do laps in a wonderfull environment. Even if you take risk at those time, you always keep your mind on the danger. Today, the gullies are a walk. Some people understand what I am doing and change little things, but important things. I accept to be a magnet and I should be carefull not to attack those people who are looking for more safety in our sport. 
Title: Re: wet avalanches
Post by: JakeDatc on March 06, 2013, 11:52:32 am
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7tk4EpBtVIW603ekIKy5fcZtdq43N9MD4GHvT4esMFmJTOrYF)