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General => General Climbing => Topic started by: darwined on October 25, 2013, 02:38:37 PM

Title: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: darwined on October 25, 2013, 02:38:37 PM
Has anyone ever worked with this organization regarding access?  Do they have an official policy regarding development on land "under their umbrella"?
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: strandman on October 25, 2013, 04:04:43 PM
sounds like the group from a while back that was horrified seeing bolts on Sundown ???
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: danf on October 25, 2013, 08:42:07 PM
Don't know how climber friendly they are, but the forest up the road from me has nothing posted.  Hunted it a few times with no issues.  I keep spying some rock that may be on their land, but still haven't tried to find it on foot yet...
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: lucky luke on October 26, 2013, 12:37:53 PM
Has anyone ever worked with this organization regarding access?

Forest in nh have a long history. I know a little about the forest close to cathedral and white horse ledge. There was restoration plan to have today's results. There is all kind of animal of the food chain, including bear and moose. That mean that the restoration of the forest was good.

With a population of nearly 180 millions people on the east cost of US, one can't expect that we will return to wild forest. The manager have to think at many use of the land and they do it. One challenge is climbing: should we have access to one cliff with many bolts or many cliff with no bolts? I think that both can exist...

In the past, climber clean trails and the "trip" of climbing was not just a question of climbing high, but also to enter a wild section of the environment: the cliff. As soon as they have client to bring in the cliff, most guide was contributing to the development of the area. The nature was in balance between the natural life and "artificial" management of human. With the growing number of adept of climbing, cathedral was over crowded and people look around. When the cliff as no crack, they begin to place bolt for their own pleasure without any environmental plan. In that way, access found is a great resource as they can participated to environmental plan and decide where, in the wild, we should create an artificial indoor wall for the pleasure of the climber ( the imagery was a little bit too strong as outside won't ever be an indoor gym...but it is easy to understand).

The question is should we completely remove the cliff where the fauna and wildlife is in balance with artificial management of human? Cathedral is it going to disappear between the trees in a way that nobody will use it...as an old cemetery where no body go any more. They construct a place to relax and eat in front of the kiosk, but it is practically impossible to see the cliff. A management plan could be to cut four or five trees (first level of tree in the succession of vegetative community) to allow people to see all the cliff and the pleasure of the climber doing there sport quietly in the nature; to allow the climber to struggle for there life on a piece of rock in a sunny day in the cliff, far from the work competition of any hard climber.       
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: darwined on October 26, 2013, 02:21:19 PM
Thanks Luke.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: DLottmann on October 26, 2013, 04:35:04 PM
Thanks Luke.

Yup, I feel enlightened.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: strandman on October 26, 2013, 04:58:00 PM
I think we have to cut down trees at Cathedral so people can see the bolts   ???
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: darwined on October 26, 2013, 05:57:44 PM
I think we have to cut down trees at Cathedral so people can see the bolts   ???

If we're going to start talking public works initiatives, let's get rid of all that talus at the base of Cannon.  We could sell little chunks of the old man to all the folks who bought "pieces of the Berlin Wall"(chunk of concrete).
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: krankonthis on October 26, 2013, 07:22:35 PM
yeah lets go back to blueberry bushes at the base of cathedral and get rid of the damn trees.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: smartpig on October 27, 2013, 01:53:26 PM
You all can look at history: between 1860 and 1920 about 87% of New Hampshire forest was for the most part mowed down (God bless ole John Henry!) and the rivers were polluted (one good thing Nixon did with the clean water act of 1972 http://www2.epa.gov/laws-regulations/summary-clean-water-act (http://clean water act of 1972 http://www2.epa.gov/laws-regulations/summary-clean-water-act)). So, the forest we see around us is not the original primary forest (primarily softwoods) but impacted into the man induced secondary forest (mixed hard and soft woods- making the birch and maple the iconic New England trees). Hail, hail, the gifts of the Industrial Revolution. So, yes, as climbers, we should be more respectful/mindful of the micro-ecology of cliffs. Their must be an expert among us who can speak to what real impact that cleaning of cracks, scrubbing of lichens, and the disruption and annihilation of critters tiny and not so tiny has on New Hampshire's cliffs. As a climber who has done his share of un-earthing new routes, it has been my observation that if the routes do not get climbed it does not take long for mother nature to fill in the cracks and reestablish plants and critters. Most of the original equipment returns. The real question, however, is what rare and fragile plants and animals get annihilated and never come back and become local extirpated or made outright extinct? also, even things grow back, is it the original stuff?

I have been a major part of establishing routes on what have become high use areas. In particular I refer to Echo Crag, Mt. Oscar, and the Beer Walls over in the Adirondacks. I have always been disturbed and alarmed at how the base of these areas ecology have been majorly impacted. When I first walked into the base of Echo Crag back in 1992 for the most part the base of the cliffs were a field of Trilliums. Now they only remain in isolated clumps. The foot traffic has been so great that trail work has been needed to prevent trail erosion. Has anyone noticed the markers at Oscar measuring, over time, the extent of the reduction of soil from climber traffic. I believe their has been a post here about that- Ward Smith I believe has been involved with this project. (who can speak to this?) I know that the base of my climb Live Free or Die (5.9++??) at the Beer Walls is about three feet longer than when I first climbed it in 1982 with Rich Leswing.

Putting up routes in particular, and the climbers who follow, because they became popular climbs and/or areas, is really a self serving act. It is ego driven. Nature has no say in the matter as to our handy work.  Do we give up climbing and recreation? Probably not. Can we better educate, manage, and self regulate our selves as a climbing community? You betcha we can. John Henry's drive for timber and profits is what helped drive the creation of NH and national conservation groups, our NH State Parks, and the White Mountain National Forest. We cannot undo our acts of the past, but we can become great advocates and stewards of our land and crags into the future.

Any grad students out there want to take this on: the environmental impact of climbers on NH crags?

Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: darwined on October 27, 2013, 02:36:41 PM
I had a minute to look into this a bit further and it turns out no fixed route development is permitted on reservations managed by the Society for the Protection for NH Forests.  The only cliff mentioned specifically, in their official policy, is Devil's Slide where rock climbing is prohibited.

This is prolly of note to folks inquiring lately(about Devil's Slide).
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: strandman on October 27, 2013, 05:23:14 PM
Well said jamie.... I prefer to put up f/a's that don't get done  ;) that way everyone gets the cleaning experience.

i have seen huge impacts in bouldering areas, some climbs in Lincoln Woods are feet longer
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: danf on October 27, 2013, 05:33:19 PM
no fixed route development
Define this a bit better.  No fixed pro at all I'm assuming, but cleaning rock, tree anchors...?
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: lucky luke on October 27, 2013, 10:40:49 PM
You all can look at history: between 1860 and 1920 about 87% of New Hampshire forest was for the most part mowed down (God bless ole John Henry!) and the rivers were polluted (one good thing Nixon did with the clean water act of 1972 http://www2.epa.gov/laws-regulations/summary-clean-water-act (http://clean water act of 1972 http://www2.epa.gov/laws-regulations/summary-clean-water-act)). So, the forest we see around us is not the original primary forest (primarily softwoods) but impacted into the man induced secondary forest (mixed hard and soft woods- making the birch and maple the iconic New England trees). Hail, hail, the gifts of the Industrial Revolution. So, yes, as climbers, we should be more respectful/mindful of the micro-ecology of cliffs.

Knowing the history is very important. In most guide book before, there is a description of the geology. Should we have a description of the ecology of the area and of the watershed? At least, we most gave to people the information and basic civism to protect the nature.

The gunks and, particularly, Mt Washington is good examples of that: many users and a fragile environment. At each side, there is extremist who want or a total interdiction of human or a complete occupation by human. A line in the middle as delicate as a plant. Delicate plant that stay years after years under snow, ice, rain and hot dry summer...are not so delicate.

I know that there is environmental plan in many state and that in some place climbing is not part of the regulation. and we don't have any information on that.

Admin al, could it be possible to have a section on the forum for environmental discussion? As a biologist-climber, I am for "leave has more trace than other animal do". We all know that beaver construct dam, but we always qualify that as "natural". As the white mountain forest authorize hand bolt placement only, we can understand that it is not the bolt the problems, but too much bolt   
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: Admin Al on October 28, 2013, 09:24:35 AM
Admin al, could it be possible to have a section on the forum for environmental discussion? As a biologist-climber, I am for "leave has more trace than other animal do". We all know that beaver construct dam, but we always qualify that as "natural". As the white mountain forest authorize hand bolt placement only, we can understand that it is not the bolt the problems, but too much bolt   

I don't think that a section is necessary. however if you want to start your own thread about environmental concerns, have at it... it would be better to keep them in one place than strewn over other unrelated threads.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: strandman on October 28, 2013, 09:36:46 AM
If you look at some of Ed Webster's historical photos, the tree cutting around cathedral is astounding . At least as a State park it's reasonable now.
The impact of climbing on the enviroment is pretty minimal..it's mostly visual and that can be corrected with colored anchors,etc.Compared to roads,trails and buildings we do OK
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: lucky luke on October 28, 2013, 11:32:32 PM
If you look at some of Ed Webster's historical photos, the tree cutting around cathedral is astounding . At least as a State park it's reasonable now.
The impact of climbing on the enviroment is pretty minimal..

There is people who bring other opinion: "Their must be an expert among us who can speak to what real impact that cleaning of cracks, scrubbing of lichens, and the disruption and annihilation of critters tiny and not so tiny has on New Hampshire's cliffs. As a climber who has done his share of un-earthing new routes, it has been my observation that if the routes do not get climbed it does not take long for mother nature to fill in the cracks and reestablish plants and critters. Most of the original equipment returns. The real question, however, is what rare and fragile plants and animals get annihilated and never come back and become local extirpated or made outright extinct? also, even things grow back, is it the original stuff?" (smartpig).

if we think at the peregrine falcon, at many trees like the one on recompense and pine tree eliminate, the trail at the bottom, the looking area at the top, the noise, the car on the road, bathroom, erosion, etc. Ecology is more the study of evolution of an area than just a picture of what you see one day....and money!

As you can see, bolt is not very important. But the evolution is. At the beginning, bolt was just to protect move that can be dangerous to do other wise, after, we place some bolt anchor to be able to rescue people, if we rescue people, we most place a couple of more bolt to avoid accident, as many people want to climb and just need and other bolt, why don't we bolt all the route except at obvious place where a noob can place a cam...and with time we will have a second rumney:
Quote
Rumney has become such a crowded mess I doubt there is much that can be done to keep the area in good shape. More people just bring more erosion and problems. Many people view Rumney as nothing more than a big outdoor gym IMO and care little about anchors or anything else other than beating the other guy to thier route. I was there last Saturday for the first time this year and it will likely be my last. What a ZOO!
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: DLottmann on October 29, 2013, 09:28:47 AM
It always comes back to bolts with you Lucky Luke. Every. Effin'. Time.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: strandman on October 29, 2013, 09:33:03 AM
The re-introduction of the Perigrine is,  to a large degree succesful BECAUSE of climbers ! Not just in NH, but all over. 

Once again "the bolt" get over it..i think the highway through Franconia is a bit more of an enviromental impact than bolting The number of trees downed at Whitehorsre for the hotel/golf course  is less than all the trees ever cut at climbing areas in NE.

I had a hand in developing an area off Bear notch called Clear  Cut Crag, 20 years ago. Now it's really re grown and lots of critters..kinda like before..
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: DaveR on October 29, 2013, 12:35:16 PM

As you can see, bolt is not very important. But the evolution is. At the beginning, bolt was just to protect move that can be dangerous to do other wise, after, we place some bolt anchor to be able to rescue people, if we rescue people, we most place a couple of more bolt to avoid accident, as many people want to climb and just need and other bolt, why don't we bolt all the route except at obvious place where a noob can place a cam...and with time we will have a second rumney:
[/quote]

Bolt everything. I'm getting to old to carry a heavy rack of cams and nuts. ;) :P
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: steve weitzler on October 29, 2013, 01:06:06 PM
Once again "the bolt" get over it..i think the highway through Franconia is a bit more of an enviromental impact than bolting The number of trees downed at Whitehorsre for the hotel/golf course  is less than all the trees ever cut at climbing areas in NE.



Actually John the highway is a good idea.  It gets me to the golf course and the pub at the hotel quicker. Priorities!!!! ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: lucky luke on October 29, 2013, 02:08:36 PM
Once again "the bolt" get over it..i think the highway through Franconia is a bit more of an enviromental impact than bolting The number of trees downed at Whitehorsre for the hotel/golf course  is less than all the trees ever cut at climbing areas in NE.

You scare more than one biologist with that way of thinking. When a land owner read you and how you are careless about it, take the time to go to rumny and see the mess...Do you really think that he want climber on his land. So they don't authorise climbing on their land, nor the bolt...nor the cam.

Environment is a very powerfull lever and, although most of us are environmental friendly, what we heard and look is those people with drill saying that there is no impact and that we must destroy the environment for one or two guy because it is going to growth back after. Or thread be hyjack by picture to make climber impopular or so many example
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: JakeDatc on October 29, 2013, 05:07:38 PM
Quote from: lucky luke
Do you really think that he want climber on his land. So they don't authorise climbing on their land, nor the bolt...nor the cam.


http://www.muirvalley.com/
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: strandman on October 29, 2013, 05:35:25 PM
At least i still scare someone...

let me go on a limb here and bastardize physics 101-

every action has a reaction..not an equal and opposite reaction, but a reaction none the less
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: lucky luke on October 30, 2013, 12:45:31 AM
At least i still scare someone...

a reality; post by admin al:


Vermont Fish & Wildlife Climbing Ban

« on: August 12, 2012, 07:53:48 PM »

The Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department (VFWD) is currently considering a rule that would ban climbing on all VFWD managed lands. Under the rule, recreational rock climbing is a prohibited activity and can only be authorized by a special use permit after the Commissioner determines “that there will be no adverse impact on Authorized Activities (which include but are not limited to hunting, fishing, hiking, swimming, boating, camping, and cross-country skiing) or other adverse impacts on primary purpose of ownership.”

Please take the time to contact the Vermont Fish & Wildlife Board or use the letter writing tool below to urge them to include recreational rock climbing as an “authorized activity.” Section 4.2 of the proposed rule allows the Department to prohibit “Authorized Activities for purposes such as, but not limited to: animal and/or habitat management, plant protection, habitat restoration or public safety.” Therefore, the Department would still have the authority to restrict climbing on a case by case basis if needed.

http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=518821

As I said, it is not the bolt, but the evolution. If you can do a site like muir valley...you will discover that you are a guest of some thing where you have to pay. Taxes on land exist and they have to pay for that.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: DaveR on October 30, 2013, 07:38:09 AM
If you can do a site like muir valley...you will discover that you are a guest of some thing where you have to pay. Taxes on land exist and they have to pay for that.

Bla, Bla, Bla,

You never paid for Muir Valley and you still don't! You just need to sign a waiver releasing the landowner from liability. Most people who go there give a donation just because it is such a fun place to go and we want to show the landowner that we are thankfull for his efforts but nothing is required.

I think Muir Valley is an Excellent example of how climbers and a landowner can work together and a really fun place to climb. I guess you will never know because there are bolts there. OMG, the horror!
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: JakeDatc on October 30, 2013, 10:00:34 AM
If you can do a site like muir valley...you will discover that you are a guest of some thing where you have to pay. Taxes on land exist and they have to pay for that.

Bla, Bla, Bla,

You never paid for Muir Valley and you still don't! You just need to sign a waiver releasing the landowner from liability. Most people who go there give a donation just because it is such a fun place to go and we want to show the landowner that we are thankfull for his efforts but nothing is required.

I think Muir Valley is an Excellent example of how climbers and a landowner can work together and a really fun place to climb. I guess you will never know because there are bolts there. OMG, the horror!

RRG in general would make Champy's head explode..  bolts.. and trad..  .14 climbers AND noobs together AHHHHhhhhhhhhhh *booom* 
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: lucky luke on October 30, 2013, 10:13:57 AM
You never paid for Muir Valley and you still don't! You just need to sign a waiver releasing the landowner from liability. Most people who go there give a donation just because it is such a fun place to go and we want to show the landowner that we are thankfull for his efforts but nothing is required.

it is possible. taxes if nothing is done have to be pay any way. Camp ground most be full at any time, other wise it will be empty. For what I saw, it look a great place where I can go climbing some times. This doesn't means that you have the right to do that every where and that exageration exist when some people occupy a place to change the ethic to a model.

As a biologist, I saw so many good will ending by bad results that I don't trust it easily.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: JakeDatc on October 30, 2013, 10:37:28 AM
http://wordpress.com/      make a blog... babble your gibberish there
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: JBro on October 30, 2013, 11:19:16 AM
it is possible. taxes if nothing is done have to be pay any way. Camp ground most be full at any time, other wise it will be empty.

(http://i.imgur.com/QtA6E.gif)
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: kenreville on October 30, 2013, 09:20:02 PM
For god's sake Champ- please, PLEASE get some help in parsing your words. You must have a friend that can help you, no?

My gut tells me that your likely I good guy.

Your ****ed up wording and sentence structure have turned you into a laughing stock as well as a pariah.

It doesn't have to be that way......
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: ed_esmond on October 30, 2013, 09:51:47 PM

a reality; post by admin al:


Vermont Fish & Wildlife Climbing Ban

« on: August 12, 2012, 07:53:48 PM »

The Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department (VFWD) is currently considering a rule that would ban climbing on all VFWD managed lands. a bunch of stuff removed for (heavens forbid) clarity

As I said, it is not the bolt, but the evolution. If you can do a site like muir valley...you will discover that you are a guest of some thing where you have to pay. Taxes on land exist and they have to pay for that.

Parlez de votre âne, nouveau
-or-
Parle à ton cul, encore une fois
-or-
Parlez de votre âne, encore une fois …
-or-
Parler sur votre cul, nouveau

in other words, en englais:"you're squaking out your butt, yet again…."

this proposed regulation is not because of the "evolution" of the "bolt." 

it's because the VTWD can't afford to spend any money (or even potentially spend any money) on any activities other than those directly related to the historic job of the department. (which is strictly dealing with "fish and wildlife…")

in other words: they have barely enough money to manage "fish and wildlife" on the lands they control, they can't afford to add anything else to the mix.

they don't have the money to oversee any "non-game" uses of the lands they control.  those uses include "recreational use of ATVs, snowmobiles, non- motorized cycling, horseback riding, rock climbing and other activities not considered wildlife-based or deemed incompatible with the purposes of VFWD ownership."  (this comes directly from the www.vtfishandwildlife.com website AND from my personal conversations with state legislators on committees that oversee the VFWD.)

in other word: in order to avoid ever having to spend any of their precious resources, in the future, on anything other than "fish and wildlife," they want to be able to ban any activity that may (even remotely) may cause them to spend those resources.

even if it's not a problem now or in the future… (and they specifically say there is no problem currently, on any of their lands.)

it has nothing to do with "bad" behavior by anyone.  the VFWD want to eliminate the chance of ever having to spend money regulating any traditional non-"fish and wildlife" usage of the properties they control. it's not just "bolted" rock climbing; it includes horseback riding, mountain biking, and x-c skiing…

so,please, please, please, stop lecturing us about something you know nothing about.  it's tedious, it makes you look foolish, AND prevents us from ever taking you seriously, even when you have something insightful to say…

ed e




 
 
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: lucky luke on October 30, 2013, 11:55:04 PM
For god's sake Champ- please, PLEASE get some help in parsing your words. You must have a friend that can help you, no?

That kind of discussion is not fun and I don't want to spend time on it for syntax. I don't care.   

The fact is that Strandman said: " sounds like the group from a while back that was horrified seeing bolts on Sundown ???"

The Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department said: "rock climbing is a prohibited activity and can only be authorized by a special use permit after the Commissioner determines “that there will be no adverse impact on Authorized Activities (which include but are not limited to hunting, fishing, hiking, swimming, boating, camping, and cross-country skiing) or other adverse impacts on primary purpose of ownership.”

I consider that smartpig bring very good point to discuss. I don't agree on every think. I remember a route in quebec where I dig just enough place to use an hex in a very fun route, a 5.7. So, in 30 feet of c\rack, I don't think that I remove all the natural life...and if other people use the same spot (as I did several time) there is no degradation of nature.

But there is people like ed esmon, Jbrochu and friends of the women with who I climbed. There firends said that I don't use enough protection for the safety of the women (it was a 5.7 route, the move was 5.5 and she climb (?) 5.9). So for the loving bolt's friends of the women, we must clean all the 30 feet of the crack...or place a bolt. And what said smartpig make sens, unfortunately. (I agree that it is just a little minority who laught at every mistake of other).

The images of many of you; ed esmon, jBrochu, jakedatc is very clear. To win your point, you are ready for every think. Careless is my opinion... and it is the only time that I am happy to have prosoamnesia, the incapacity to recognize people, because I don't know and want to know, who you are.

The distinction between sport and trad, that I like to have, is to make the distinction between some think like muir valley and pinacle ridge in Mt Washington where the impact of climber is very low despite the fragility of the environment (I didn't see bolt or fix pin in the 5.9 variation, no plant degradation or human trace, some piton in the 5.8 variation). Two ethic, two play ground and a mutual respect for each other with a willpower to learn the difference.       
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: JakeDatc on October 31, 2013, 12:22:43 AM
" To win your point, you are ready for every think"

We make our point by writing clearly and without a huge bias towards one style of climbing or the other. 

you say that a sport crag can't be run done on private property.    Wrong,  the Webers  have done an amazing job with Muir Valley.  I've met the man, donated $ the days I climbed, even talked to him about an issue that came up while I was there.   He runs search and rescue classes,  has emergency phones in the valley,  even loans out helmets and stick clips to those who might need them to prevent accidents.   Tons of trail work and volunteer days to keep the place looking amazing. 

you should  read more and type less..  you're repetitive, boring and incomprehensible. 
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: M_Sprague on October 31, 2013, 01:57:16 AM
As the white mountain forest authorize hand bolt placement only, ...

That is incorrect. The restriction on power drills is only in areas where no motorised or mechanical devices are allowed, such as ATVs, carts, bicycles, electric toothbrushes etc.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: DLottmann on October 31, 2013, 08:25:30 PM
As the white mountain forest authorize hand bolt placement only, ...

That is incorrect. The restriction on power drills is only in areas where no motorised or mechanical devices are allowed, such as ATVs, carts, bicycles, electric toothbrushes etc.

Specifically designated wilderness areas if I’m not mistaken, which is a small percentage of the WMNF.

But Champ/LL knows everything.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: JakeDatc on October 31, 2013, 09:13:11 PM
As the white mountain forest authorize hand bolt placement only, ...

That is incorrect. The restriction on power drills is only in areas where no motorised or mechanical devices are allowed, such as ATVs, carts, bicycles, electric toothbrushes etc.

Specifically designated wilderness areas if I’m not mistaken, which is a small percentage of the WMNF.

But Champ/LL knows everything.

you are correct..   on the first part ;)
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: Pete Jackson on October 31, 2013, 11:51:56 PM
Specifically designated wilderness areas if I’m not mistaken, which is a small percentage of the WMNF.

This jibes with my understanding as well.

At the risk of becoming the "off topic guy": the WMNF provides a lot of GIS layer data that you can load up in Google Earth, QGIS, or ArcGIS. Much of it is useless (like "Rock Climbing Areas") but much of it is really useful, like "Wilderness Areas".

Not sure whether your power drill is allowed on that new route? Take a waypoint with your GPS, then load it into Google Earth with the Wilderness Boundaries and see. Also a useful tool for determining whether that crag (like, say, The Bakery) is on private land or WMNF land.

Here are the data: http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/whitemountain/landmanagement/gis (http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/whitemountain/landmanagement/gis)

Enjoy! And if you want a primer on how to use the data, let me know.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: xcrag_corex on November 01, 2013, 12:22:47 PM
As the white mountain forest authorize hand bolt placement only, ...

That is incorrect. The restriction on power drills is only in areas where no motorised or mechanical devices are allowed, such as ATVs, carts, bicycles, electric toothbrushes etc.
Shit.....how am i suppose to brush my teeth while camping..... guess i'll need a trad tooth brush.... wait boulderers carry trad tooth brushes (epiphany!) I should be posting this in the Bouldering/ Trad debate....
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: M_Sprague on November 01, 2013, 06:28:03 PM
Specifically designated wilderness areas if I’m not mistaken, which is a small percentage of the WMNF.

Enjoy! And if you want a primer on how to use the data, let me know.

Yes, Please! How do I get the files onto Google Earth, if you are able to describe  that easily. Beware I am an IT boob.
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: lucky luke on November 03, 2013, 11:50:04 PM
you should  read more and type less..

I red I red. the link just above

 "the reason that they don't charge admission fees is because, under KY law, that would expose them to a lot of liabilities"

 "All costs for maintaining the land and its facilities come out of Rick and Liz Weber's pockets"

"Back in October of 2010, I posted this similar alert regarding the financial plight of Muir Valley. The situation hasn't changed since then -- if anything, it's gotten worse, as the number of climbers flocking to the RRG in general and Muir Valley in particular has steadily climbed. We've already lost one RRG area recently (Roadside Crag), and we just can't afford to lose Muir Valley."

s...t, they repeat what I am saying!!!it is boring. and they do that in 2010, 2012 and will do it in 2014...incomprehensible!
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: JakeDatc on November 03, 2013, 11:58:53 PM
What is your point?    Muir Valley is privately owned and uses donations and volunteer work to keep the area running amazingly well.   

obviously private areas can go horribly wrong too.. bad apples ruin it all.  down the road at Torrent Falls,  climbers who did not obey the rules and continued to despite warnings caused it to become totally private and only used by the Torrent falls Cabin renters. 

Champ no one knows wtf you are saying.  you write unreadable gibberish that people are sick and tired of reading. 

that link is over a year old, as far as I know Muir Valley is doing perfectly well.  you could Email Rick about it 

People are not Required to pay at Muir.  People WANT to donate to a family that cares about climbers and makes the area an amazing place
http://www.muirvalley.com/news---updates.html

Muir Valley is larger than Rumney and far better run than the forest service does.  if the mandatory $3 parking fee was used for Rumney instead of being put in a large forest service pot and ignored trail work that is actually needed could be done instead of making a stupid unfinished path along the road while you can't even walk  at Triple corners or Yellowknife without sliding and kicking rocks all over. 

 
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: danf on November 04, 2013, 07:33:04 PM
no fixed route development
Define this a bit better.  No fixed pro at all I'm assuming, but cleaning rock, tree anchors...?
Now that this has delved into yet another nearly-epic sideshow, I'd still like to know the answer to this...  Please?
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: crazyt on November 05, 2013, 03:14:17 AM
Champ no one knows wtf you are saying.  you write unreadable gibberish that people are sick and tired of reading. 




I'm Not tired of it and neither are you Jakedatc or any of us that reply to Lucky luke. His posts are the most entertaining and I can't imagine this forum without LL. If all of Champs posts were compiled into a book he'd be rich and famous.

How come I always forget how to seperate my reply from the quote?













Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: Admin Al on November 05, 2013, 11:10:30 AM
is this what you wanted?

-------------------------

Champ no one knows wtf you are saying.  you write unreadable gibberish that people are sick and tired of reading. 

I'm Not tired of it and neither are you Jakedatc or any of us that reply to Lucky luke. His posts are the most entertaining and I can't imagine this forum without LL. If all of Champs posts were compiled into a book he'd be rich and famous.

How come I always forget how to seperate my reply from the quote?
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: JakeDatc on November 05, 2013, 11:13:29 AM
If you do it for him he'll never learn Al ;) 

T just keep your writing out side of the [   ]  quote brackets
Title: Re: society for the protection of nh forests
Post by: crazyt on November 05, 2013, 01:18:31 PM
Thanks Al and jakedatc. I'll try and remember :)