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General => Ice & Winter Climbing => Topic started by: eyebolter on January 29, 2013, 08:29:16 am

Title: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: eyebolter on January 29, 2013, 08:29:16 am
Looking to do the traverse in February in one day, including Jackson.  I have done it in one day to Clinton, carrying all my water, and have done it many years ago over four days where our stove stopped working.  We didn't find any water at Greenborough Spring, but were saved by a seep on the other side of the Lakes of the Clouds.

Looking to go super light so finding water would be helpful.

Thanks,

Ward
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: DLottmann on January 29, 2013, 09:36:21 am
All sources above tree-line in February are HIGHLY unreliable to non-existent.

I would carry a Jet Boil for a one-day. Hydrate like crazy the day before (and on the drive to trailhead) and I would carry 2 32 oz water bottles + Jet Boil. One full can of fuel should be enough... that doesnít weigh much and will let you re-supply almost anywhere...
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: eyebolter on January 29, 2013, 12:33:23 pm
Thanks, didn"t even think about melting.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: M_Sprague on January 29, 2013, 04:15:46 pm
Ward, you can borrow my JetBoil if you don't have one and get it right back to me. Just don't let Jimmy A poke a hole in it with an iceaxe.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: sneoh on January 29, 2013, 05:08:16 pm
Is snow melt potable w/o treatment (iodine, filtration, etc) if not heating it to 180F?
I suppose fresh snow is clean enough.  Yes?
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: DLottmann on January 29, 2013, 05:20:01 pm
Just bringing to a boil for a few seconds is enough... though I would probably risk it with pure snow above tree-line for a one day ascent... shouldnít be any bacteria in there... but ya never know.... watch out for charmin flowers and donít collect snow near them!   :o
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: sneoh on January 29, 2013, 05:25:43 pm
Good point about risking it if above tree line and on a 1-day jaunt.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: eyebolter on January 29, 2013, 08:19:51 pm
Good point about risking it if above tree line and on a 1-day jaunt.

Beavers and people, that is all you need to remember Soon.  I drink out of springs and seasonal streams in Massachusetts all the time, no worries as long as there are no beavers, and no people shitting above you.  Of course in the Presidentials no people shitting above you is pretty hard...
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: eyebolter on January 29, 2013, 08:25:24 pm
Thanks, didn"t even think about melting.

Seriously?

Yes, like I said the last time I did it in one day (except Jackson) we carried all our water.  The previous time we were melting water but we had 50 pounds of gear or more.  A stove isn't usually in my day kit but D-man is right, it is lighter than carrying the extra water.  I'm thinking going lean on the water (2-3 liters) and hoping to find some, but having the stove as a backup.

Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: M_Sprague on January 29, 2013, 08:37:15 pm
Wouldn't you want a stove up there anyway? I wouldn't think of going anywhere very far in the winter without my Jetboil in case something happens unexpected and you get stuck longer than planned. At least you can make tea to hydrate and warm yourself up. If you get really stuck you can always cut your buddy's frozen toes off and make a soup.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: eyebolter on January 29, 2013, 08:39:16 pm
Wouldn't you want a stove up there anyway? I wouldn't think of going anywhere very far in the winter without my Jetboil in case something happens unexpected and you get stuck longer than planned. At least you can make tea to hydrate and warm yourself up. If you get really stuck you can always cut your buddy's frozen toes off and make a soup.


"If you carry bivouac gear, you WILL bivouac."  - Yvonne Chiounard
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: DLottmann on January 29, 2013, 08:59:49 pm
... If you get really stuck you can always cut your buddy's frozen toes off and make a soup.

awesome
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: sneoh on January 29, 2013, 11:55:29 pm
It appears that Jetboil runs on a butane/propane blend fuel.  The fuel canister might have some icing problem below 20F or so. Come to think of it, YOU might have icing problem yourself below 20F. :)

Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: M_Sprague on January 30, 2013, 12:41:47 am
You could stick a handwarmer next to the canister while it is packed in the pot and I would have a lighter in case the little starter is not enough to get it going. I am pretty sure I have used it well below 20 deg with no problem and that people have used them on Everest, but I will defer to others on that. Not sure if it does anything, but I shake the canister before sticking the stove on.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: triguy on January 30, 2013, 06:57:41 am
I have used my jet boil below 20F and it works well. It just takes a bit longer to boil and is more affected by the wind so i use heavy duty aluminum foil as a wind screen. I have also found that sno peake fuel works best in cold weather.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: DLottmann on January 30, 2013, 08:29:57 am
The fuel bottle is small and can be kept in the inside pocket of a shell jacket an hour before use... Iíve used them in subzero and occasionally warming them up will get it done.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: sneoh on January 30, 2013, 08:33:01 am
Thanks for reassurances, guys.  It looks like a nice stove.  Got to love no pumping required!
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: ELM on January 30, 2013, 10:53:59 am
I have had issues with keeping cannisters warm and getting them to work well. I have had them fail when you need them and it's just to fustrating. I have not tried the jetboil system though. I go right back to an old svea white gas stove in the winter. And no I don't ever have to pump...don't even have the pump. I prep it as the manufacturer recomended so long ago...fuel around the neck, make sure the cap is on tight; light 'er up and go from there. Scares the crap out of the kids! There's a candle trick too if you're low on fuel.
Watch for heat loss when melting snow. I know if i'm going to do it multi day I carry my home-made heat exchanger and put that on the outside of the pot...you boil faster and don't use as much fuel.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: pappy on January 30, 2013, 03:30:13 pm
I go right back to an old svea white gas stove in the winter. And no I don't ever have to pump...don't even have the pump. I prep it as the manufacturer recomended so long ago...fuel around the neck, make sure the cap is on tight; light 'er up and go from there. Scares the crap out of the kids! There's a candle trick too if you're low on fuel.

I loved my Svea. Carried it the lengths of the AT and PCT, using un-leaded gas and priming as above. Totally bombproof and reliable. Never cottoned to the MSRs. Unfortunately the Svea, MSRs, haul bag, 20+ years of old ropes and rock shoes, and pretty much everything else I owned, washed down the Winooski when Irene came through. Sniff. The Svea is one of the things I miss the most.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: ELM on January 30, 2013, 03:45:50 pm
Last time I looked Campmore still carried the Svea.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: Maxsuffering on January 30, 2013, 05:57:36 pm
I got the winter version of the JetBoil with the regulator last year for long backcounry ski days with the same idea -carry less water and make more whenever needed. The system works... sort of. Down to 20F or so you're good, below that I have had mixed results. You can boil water but the time definitely increases dramatically as it gets colder, at around 0F I haven't had much luck using an unmodified stove.

Hints: 1) Use new canisters. The pressure is greater thus giving the stove more ummph, plus the fuel is a propane/butane mixture and I'm told that at cold temperatures the stove burns the more efficient propane quicker thus functioning well for a while and then losing efficiency quickly. I use a canister a couple of times and then mark it with tape and hang on to it to use on summertime overnights or for boiling coffee water car camping. (Without going to far afield here the reason these stoves work on Mt. Everest is because the reduced pressure at altitude compensates for the low temperature.) 2) Use a windscreen. The directions say not to, but do it anyway. 3) Do a quick search online for directions on how to make a heat exchanger using 1/2" copper pipe. I do not officially recommend it and the stove guy at the local gear shop just shook his head, but people do it. I haven't had much luck using hand warmers to keep the canister warm.

Mostly I've found myself carrying all the water I need for the day when it is genuinely cold. If I were camping or it was critical that the stove function on command I would choose white gas in the winter. Good luck.
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: Jeff on January 31, 2013, 09:48:12 am
How did I miss the news that Yvon Chouinard became Yvonne?  :-\
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: sneoh on January 31, 2013, 09:51:59 am
"Everyone" is getting a sex change these days!  The new Botox! :)
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: Jeff on January 31, 2013, 10:04:42 am
Ok i was just worried that Yvon had been californicated >:(
Title: Re: Winter water sources on Presidential Range traverse?
Post by: xcrag_corex on January 31, 2013, 11:53:54 am
Pretty sure it's still Patagonia, not Patriciagonia ;)