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General => Injuries, Medical & Training => Topic started by: Nico on September 06, 2013, 10:41:17 am

Title: The knees
Post by: Nico on September 06, 2013, 10:41:17 am
56, work hard to stay in good shape. Have been going to Crossfit for 3 years and like it, no injuries. The routines frequently involve dead lifts, lunges, squats, thrusters and other work involving deep knee bends, often weighted. Box jumps too. Question: In the last 2 months or so my knees have been a little sore, from time to time and moderately but it worries me. Are there exercises I should be avoiding or modifying?
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: David_G48 on September 06, 2013, 11:04:27 am
I know that it is recommended to not do deep knee bends (squats) with weights, do not go below 90 degrees. I forget why or if this is still the rule. Maybe Jake (Trainer) can help here. If it were my knees that had new adverse symptoms from a routine that I had been doing for years I would seek the advice of a medical doctor with expertise in this area. Then again online advice is free and you know the saying "You get what you pay for".
Regardless I hope that it works out that you are ok.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: Admin Al on September 06, 2013, 11:05:01 am
squats & deep knee bends, especially weighted, are really pretty tough on the knees! at 56 you might want to dial it back a bit...
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: strandman on September 06, 2013, 11:14:30 am
nico- any previous injuries ??

I think you may be tempting fate with deep bends and weighted squats.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: crazyt on September 06, 2013, 02:14:57 pm
Excessive repetitive motion, whether at the work place or the gym, is gonna have negative consequences. There is no better excerise for climbing than climbing. Spurt climbers can suffer the consequences by overworking a hard move.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: ELM on September 06, 2013, 09:01:10 pm
Any excercise that you are moving your joint to it's fullest extent with added weight has the potential to be more harmful that without weight. Listen to your body and rest. If the Crossfit routine you do hasn't bothered you before it may not be the cause of your issue. I would avoid deep knee bends with weight for a while and see if the issue goes away. That said Crossfit and similar programs really keep PT's busy with clients! I understand the motivation behind the programs and people really are drawn to them.  I have just seen a pattern of back surgeries that started with Crossfit injury. Some of the excersises and combos they promote are text book examples of the way to injure yourself. One I've had explained to me was a pull up that you do very fast; you let go of the bar once you reach the apex of the pull-up and then grab the bar on the way down and repeat. The person who explained it to me had recently undergone surgery for an elbow issue they attributed to that excercise.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: hobbsj on September 07, 2013, 05:57:58 am
Some rest and "vitamin I" may be best.  And while elm has a good point, the crossfit may also be the cause if it has come from an overuse injury.  My athletes get this type of thing with a fit that hasn't bothered them for years, but all of a sudden, WHAM!  But he hit it right on the head with it being a fad that has a lot of people attracted but may promote practices that lead to.  And even if its not the exercise routine, still take time off.  You may have something else that initiated the injury/irritation and activities that were normal now aggravate it.  Like mine and Patrick's PF, we did something stupid, got an overuse injury, and now uphill approaches have us wither like 90 year olds.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: perswig on September 07, 2013, 07:00:54 am
When you're symptomatic, does it hurt more if you put direct pressure on your patellas ('kneecaps'), pressing them against the end of your femur?  Chondromalacia patella from chronic grinding under load will do this; I got mine training for a Quantico vacation (plus a torn meniscus, dammit).  Most of the time a dull ache, but every once in a while I'd bump my patella against something and get a screaming stab of pain that nearly made me vomit.  Rest (like, REALLY rest), ice, and NSAIDs like hobbsj said, until it's completely gone.


Or you could have Lyme disease.
Hang it up now and take up fly-fishing.



Hope it resolves quickly for ya.
Dale
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: danf on September 07, 2013, 01:47:16 pm
Chondromalacia
I got that diagnosis back in high school from the trainer.  Running cross-country, combined with years of driving a standard transmission did a number on my knees, the left one especially.  They've gotten better, seemed to be worse in my early to mid-twenties than they are now at 34...  I've been driving a standard again for the last 5 years and haven't had too many issues.

I know it can be hard to do at times, but rest is definitely a good thing!
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: Nico on September 08, 2013, 07:26:36 pm
 My knees don't hurt when I am exercising, even lifting. They feel warmed up and strong. They just get sore from time to time during the day and I wonder why and whether it is a sign I should modify my routine.  I don't want to stop climbing any time soon!
I am a big fan of my gym, I admit - Crossfit Casco Bay in Portland. The trainers are really good and we don't do crazy stuff like someone mentioned. I did a great Katahdin trip in February (that big ski in . . .) and climbed in the Cascades last June with a 65 pound pack with no issues and I credit my gym.
Thanks for the tips. I'll dial it back some, maybe get a consult.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: JBro on September 09, 2013, 08:35:19 am
and climbed in the Cascades last June with a 65 pound pack

I've discovered your problem.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: M_Sprague on September 21, 2013, 09:11:01 pm
Superglue. ..Oh wait. Wrong thread.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: lucky luke on September 21, 2013, 10:09:58 pm
My knees don't hurt when I am exercising, even lifting. They feel warmed up and strong. They just get sore from time to time during the day and I wonder why and whether it is a sign I should modify my routine.

Tendon are cartilage with very low vascularization. That mean that when you have micro cut in your tendon, it take around three weeks to heal. As you exercise, there are few of the tendon that can be cut and with a repetitive exercise, few make more and when you have to stop to train it is because the injury is important. Be wise, stop before. Take less weight. Ask to have other exercise less intensive.

When a tendon is at rest, there is no water in it. When some one talk about a warm up, it is to stimulate the activity of the tendon and bring water in it. At that moment, the tendon work as a chuck absorber in your car to prevent accident and you won't have any pain. After the exercise, the water go out and the tendon rest. As micro cut occur, sensor will notify it and will cause a reflex to bent the muscle. You will have spasm and you will feel pain. It is a defense mechanism of your organism, a message. As the sensor is at the extremity of the muscle, you don't know exactly where is the cut. When it hill, the wound can create on the tendon an obstruction that will move and create inflammation. It is the chronic stage of a tendinitis.

So warm up at least fifteen minute before doing the exercise and drink as much water as you can and took as less cigarette or other substance that will lower your level of liquid in your tendon
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: ELM on September 22, 2013, 06:38:42 pm
If you every have water in you tendons you are going to rupture them.

Most recent studies have shown that conventional "warming up" stretching actually causes your muscle and connective tissue injury. Except for the glutes. Who knows why.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: strandman on September 23, 2013, 09:51:42 am
Interesting.. i was just talking with a PT who thinks that movement in certain arthritis situations can cause MORE inflammation !?
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: MT on September 23, 2013, 10:45:32 am
Considering age and the fact that you use your knees pretty hard (65 lb pack and all), I'd say it might be early signs of knee osteoarthritis that is being exacerbated by your workout regimen. Sometimes symptoms can flare up for who knows what reason, but most cases are brought on by some mechanical stimulus/injury. Training, and resistance-type training, is generally good for your knees if you've got those aches and pains that seem like early OA, but too much or done the wrong way, anything can do more harm than good.

Talk to a Ortho doc or PT/AT about your symptoms and what you should/should not be doing. I presume that you're not willing to stop hauling around the 65 lb pack (heck, I wouldn't), but you can modify other things and train more effectively so that you get more years out of your knees. Key thing here is to get a really good doc or PT/AT who will sit down and work w/ you...and, quite frankly, is knowledgeable. There's a lot of unsubstantiated stuff being recommended by Orthos/PTs/ATs, and some stuff that is downright quackery. It's difficult to sort through it if you don't have medical training, so shop around and use common sense.

Good luck!

Mike
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: hobbsj on September 23, 2013, 11:31:34 am
Interesting.. i was just talking with a PT who thinks that movement in certain arthritis situations can cause MORE inflammation !?

Every case is different as with the etiology.  That's why the treatment of different forms can vary so much.  They are all called arthritis, but can be very different.  For example, cancer is "rogue cells"  in the same way arthritis is compromising of connective tissue.  But different cancers are treated differently.

As far as the whole water in the connective tissue thing, champ, recheck your sources with stuff.  You really can start out with good info on this stuff and then take a huge nosedive.  For example, there is low vasculature in the connective tissue.  But if they were going to fill with all this water, where would it come from?  Has to get there somewhere.  Magic gates won't open to suck up water from the peripheral tissue.  There has to be an influx of water somehow to create the osmotic gradient.  You're right on about prolonged healing in that tissue compared to others, but man, some of the other stuff you come up with!

Bottom line Nico, a bunch of wankers on a forum should be your last resource in any sort of diagnosis or advice, especially in something that can become a chronic issue.  Check with a doc.  Don't trust a lot of certifications out there on the regular market with this stuff as many are glorified "send in 5 UPC's and get your free certification from Wheaties."  Most trainers are given direction by marketing, especially if a brand recognition is attached, and don't really know that much beyond the exercises they are shown and what they read from wankers on forums, which really sucks for the select few out there who are really really good.  Trust me, I had to take one of those courses to get certified for insurance purposes.  I left wondering how much dumber I became.  Rest never hurts.  And these bits of pain here and there can be indicative of another issue getting ready to rear its head.  Find some knowledgeable individuals that you feel you can work well with, and don't shop around waiting until somebody tells you a diagnosis/TX plan that you want to hear, but rather one that you can adhere to.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: ELM on September 23, 2013, 04:09:32 pm
Interesting.. i was just talking with a PT who thinks that movement in certain arthritis situations can cause MORE inflammation !?

That's a new one for me! Injuries require rest, arthritis does not. Most of these chronic inflammation based issues improve with excercise.

And Hobbsj I had to send in 6 UPC's for my certificate! I also got a nice pin and a malpratice insurance bill.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: hobbsj on September 23, 2013, 04:22:03 pm
Interesting.. i was just talking with a PT who thinks that movement in certain arthritis situations can cause MORE inflammation !?

That's a new one for me! Injuries require rest, arthritis does not. Most of these chronic inflammation based issues improve with excercise.

And Hobbsj I had to send in 6 UPC's for my certificate! I also got a nice pin and a malpratice insurance bill.

Not saying you personally since I have no idea who you are.  You could be the world's most advanced researcher in connective tissue injuries.  Why you would be lurking on a climbing forum, I have no idea.  And any wanker can be posting ridiculous claims (me included for all you know) But, most training certifications are a joke and the average person doesn't know the difference, which again, sucks for those who do have knowledge and higher level certifications.  As for the 6 upc's, you got jipped.  Did at least get a free set of steak knives and free delivery out of the deal?
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: strandman on September 23, 2013, 04:57:53 pm
For me , we were talkingan arthritis/gout combo.... it seemed to make sense with the crystals and all

She also has known me for 30+ years and climbed 25 of those which i think helps

A lot of wankers are on forums.. just like hospitals   ;D
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: ELM on September 23, 2013, 07:07:31 pm
Interesting.. i was just talking with a PT who thinks that movement in certain arthritis situations can cause MORE inflammation !?

That's a new one for me! Injuries require rest, arthritis does not. Most of these chronic inflammation based issues improve with excercise.

And Hobbsj I had to send in 6 UPC's for my certificate! I also got a nice pin and a malpratice insurance bill.

Not saying you personally since I have no idea who you are.  You could be the world's most advanced researcher in connective tissue injuries.  Why you would be lurking on a climbing forum, I have no idea.  And any wanker can be posting ridiculous claims (me included for all you know) But, most training certifications are a joke and the average person doesn't know the difference, which again, sucks for those who do have knowledge and higher level certifications.  As for the 6 upc's, you got jipped.  Did at least get a free set of steak knives and free delivery out of the deal?
 
    No knives...just a pile of books.
    Totally understand...was just having some fun.
    I think all medical info is suspect unless you really know the clinician.
    Medicine is becoming way too specialized and that leads to experts in very tightly focused areas who have no idea about anything outside of their specialty.
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: strandman on September 23, 2013, 07:20:18 pm
ED- that me be the understatement of the year   8)

i have a cardiologist who can fix the ticker, but has no idea why i have joint problems  "how could climbing mess up your knees ?"
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: ELM on September 23, 2013, 08:49:04 pm
ED- that me be the understatement of the year   8)

i have a cardiologist who can fix the ticker, but has no idea why i have joint problems  "how could climbing mess up your knees ?"

Yeah...how did that happen??
    In my experience most nurses are better at general medicine than most MD's. No surprise there though. Med students are forced to pick specialties that will give them the ability to pay off their obscene student loans.
   
Title: Re: The knees
Post by: darwined on September 24, 2013, 07:44:53 pm
 [/quote]
    Medicine is becoming way too specialized and that leads to experts in very tightly focused areas who have no idea about anything outside of their specialty.
[/quote]

True story.  This spring I said "THE Goodbye" to my wife.  I later learned that the surgeon who told me to say goodbye had never seen my wife's condition before, but most OBGYN's have.  She lived.

Sorry, back to knees.