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General => Rock Climbing: Trad => Topic started by: darwined on October 30, 2012, 07:57:09 PM

Title: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: darwined on October 30, 2012, 07:57:09 PM
Is there a climb I can TR to work this technique?  Something out of the way and kinda hard would be cool.  Thx
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: danf on October 30, 2012, 09:06:16 PM
I don't know how top-ropable it would be, but it is out of the normal realm at Rumney and it is a 5.10 a/b from what I've found...  Layback and Relax at the G-spot wall.  It shares an anchor with another route (Lichen Lickin I believe) that's a 5.11, so if you can climb that route it may be possible to set up a TR through the anchors for Layback.  Probably not the best route out there for what you want, but it's the first one I know of that comes to mind- probably mostly because it's where I took my first lead fall!
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: DLottmann on October 30, 2012, 09:24:34 PM
First 10 feet of Kiddy Crack on Cathedral... slippery little move that one... Cosmic Amazement above the South Buttress of Whitehorse... pretty classic 5.9 but a hell of an approach to set up a TR. Can't think of many other classic lay-backs that one could drop a TR on around here... Beezlebub Corner has some nice layback moves but must lead it to TR it...
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on October 30, 2012, 11:19:37 PM
Great Corner Wheeler.  Lead it is the way to go though some do TR it...
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on October 30, 2012, 11:29:00 PM
Is there a climb I can TR to work this technique?  Something out of the way and kinda hard would be cool.  Thx

To work that technique, what do you means? Duet direct is a jam and layback route. The first pitch have almost all vertical hold. Second pitch was also a nice 5.9+ layback. I think that it is a testpiece to know if you are a 5.9 -5.10 climber. Not a route to work the technique.

fun house, left hand corner is a streneous layback. You can try it by the right or by the left. You can set a top rope and try barn door technique or steaming/layback situation, or to change from a right side layback to a left side layback. At the top, to the right of pine tree eliminate, there is also two crack that you can try as a layback. Instead of steaming technique, you will need off with technique to climb the route after many try to do layback. Good places, easy access and a lot of work to do to master the technique and be able to aim to onsight a testpiece.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: DLottmann on October 31, 2012, 12:14:24 AM
Is there a climb I can TR to work this technique?  Something out of the way and kinda hard would be cool.  Thx
...try barn door technique...

Great suggestions Lucky Luke. Just to clarify, as I've seen you mention this before... what you mean is "flagging" technique... "barn door" is what happens when you do not "flag"... so in English it would read:

Practice flagging technique to prevent the dreaded "barn door".... when you spin off balance...
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on October 31, 2012, 12:37:25 AM
Just to clarify, as I've seen you mention this before... what you mean is "flagging" technique... "barn door" is what happens when you do not "flag"... so in English it would read:

Practice flagging technique to prevent the dreaded "barn door".... when you spin off balance...

Better if you don't clarify.

When you do a layback and you are at the maximum range, you can do a barn door and fall. Going from the right side layback to the left side layback could place you in a position to make a barn door.

Three birtches is an other good training. It is a special layback call undercling. If you place your feet to hight, the strength is all on your hand, if you place it too low, your feet slip. As you look at the fall, you better to fall on your feet than on your back. So, which is the best hand and feet placement on that particular layback?

Keep training!
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2012, 01:34:05 AM
In the typical left or right layback (not undercling), the general rule of thumb is if left-hand layback, then to prevent barndoor, 'plant' with right foot, mostly use mid-sole and outside edge of (right) shoe.  If right-hand layback, then 'plant' with left foot, again mostly using mid-sole and outside edge of (left) shoe.
There are many refinements one can add to the basics.  For example, one that works for me when the 'plant' foot (or right foot when left-hand layback) is on a marginal hold, is to  brace the top of the toe box of my other foot/shoe (left in this example) against the wall.  This creates counter pressure on the 'plant' foot to make the marginal footing (right in this example) a little better.  But, it takes some practice to get it to work and YMMV too.

People often laugh when I say sometimes an 'inside flag' with the right foot works well to prevent barn-door when both left foot and left hand are used in a lay back move.  Whatever .... but it works for me in certain situations and for Joe L too, from whom I learnt this unusual move almost twenty years ago.

The only memorable (read long) route with a lot of layback for me is Return To Forever at Acadia NP in ME.  Good climbing, great location, and wonderful views from the top.  Do it!!

Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: Admin Al on October 31, 2012, 07:04:13 AM
what about Turner's?
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on October 31, 2012, 08:02:34 AM
Retaliation 8)
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2012, 08:58:45 AM
Good one, Tradman, but this is bound to get Lucky going on about the difference between undercling and layback, yadda, yadda :)



Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on October 31, 2012, 09:39:42 AM
Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle
Pure laybacks in NE are pretty rare;

Peanut gallery has cruxy laybacks before the wide
P1 Women in Love is kinda laybacky and good tr after Pi of the Book
lichen It a Lot is cool but a tr set up would be tough to do, it pro's really well though

sneoh- are you talking about the famous "finnish crossstep" move  the inside out foot plant ?
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on October 31, 2012, 10:16:14 AM
In the typical left or right layback (not undercling), the general rule of thumb is if left-hand layback, then to prevent barndoor, 'plant' with right foot, mostly use mid-sole and outside edge of (right) shoe.

As the question is about to "work a route" I will agree with a sport technique approach.

As the question is about "working a technique", I will consider that the guy already know the thumb rules and want really to try new options to have the feeling of the rock. Three birtches is interesting for that as the layback (pulling with the arms and pushing with the feet) is going to near horizontal hold to close to vertical one. Although that friction is mostly use, the short move of layback are streneous. Particularly when it is wet.

I often saw people learning general rules and try to do a route. When there body are not in a good position, they felt and work the route to a perfect match. Most route on a cliff can be done in one or two days and you have to look at new cliff or open new route to have fun to climb. It is not my ethic, it is the ethic of sport climbing. I like to train and when I am ready...I test my knowledge on a route. Some times I fail (the nose, overtraining), some time I don't try the route (great diedral, poko, vmc direct). But I still have a lot of knew route to try and to climb onsight. A 5.8 route that you can not read can be more fun than a 5.11 route where you just need power to make the crux. Particularly to your partner when he can laught at you when you bail in a 5.6!!!

the possessed is a kind of tespiece or good training as I tried it on top rope or warm up for some climber       

Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on October 31, 2012, 10:22:40 AM
Ripper is a fine route but, if there is a layback move on it, I missed something. Several times

Possessed has layback moves but is rather harder
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on October 31, 2012, 10:37:33 AM
Ripper is a fine route but, if there is a layback move on it, I missed something. Several times

I was thinking of possessed when I wrote riper. There is a nice layback on possessed...I didn't understand how to place my bdyy, lack of strenght, shoes was finish, the air was humid, forget my chalk bag,... I am good at techniques, but I also know plenty of good excuses
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on October 31, 2012, 10:44:30 AM
The hard bit on Possessed is a pinch layback and reach into a finger stack... solid 11++    :'(

And don't use the sucker hold to the right..pulls you out of the layback position
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: old_school on October 31, 2012, 11:54:04 AM
Crack in the Woods and Screaming Yellow Zonkers baby...that will hone that layback tecnhique and quick.  ;)
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2012, 12:03:21 PM
Pure laybacks in NE are pretty rare;
This too is my impression but I could be wrong

sneoh- are you talking about the famous "finnish crossstep" move  the inside out foot plant ?
Is this ( http://www.mountainproject.com/v/105989086 ) what you mean?
Inside flag is sort of like it, except you do not actually put a lot of weight on the inside foot.
Instead, I "cock" the inside foot so that the top of the shoe (toebox/rand) is pressed against the rock, creating counter pressure/balance for the outside/planted foot (often lower than the inside foot).
If you were to climb an arete with one hand actually going around the arete, an inside flag can significantly reduce the barn-door effect.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: M_Sprague on October 31, 2012, 12:50:52 PM
It looks like Lee is just doing a step through in that picture, Soon.

Glad somebody mentioned Screaming Yellow Zonkers. The hardest moves on that route are high step laybacks rather than jamming. Zonked Out, right next to it, also has a layback crux.

Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2012, 01:33:56 PM
Glad somebody mentioned Screaming Yellow Zonkers. The hardest moves on that route are high step laybacks rather than jamming. Zonked Out, right next to it, also has a layback crux.
Just one move or two of layback, not continuous, right?
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: M_Sprague on October 31, 2012, 01:55:25 PM
Not continuous, more like a sequence, jam, and another sequence. It sounds like the OP could use a good arete climb like Fall From Grace on Cannon. http://www.mountainproject.com/v/fall-from-grace-/107815601 (http://www.mountainproject.com/v/fall-from-grace-/107815601) How far out of the way do you want to go, and how hard?  ;) I can think of a few aretes that require a hike.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: JakeDatc on October 31, 2012, 04:54:28 PM
sneoh- are you talking about the famous "finnish crossstep" move  the inside out foot plant ?

how about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJUx_ArQaU
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: DLottmann on October 31, 2012, 05:22:17 PM
sneoh- are you talking about the famous "finnish crossstep" move  the inside out foot plant ?

how about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJUx_ArQaU

I was about to go looking for this video! Classic! Love the back-stepping, or drop-knee, or what ever that is that he does during this... Lucky Luke would know the correct term...
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: darwined on October 31, 2012, 05:32:55 PM
Not continuous, more like a sequence, jam, and another sequence. It sounds like the OP could use a good arete climb like Fall From Grace on Cannon. http://www.mountainproject.com/v/fall-from-grace-/107815601 (http://www.mountainproject.com/v/fall-from-grace-/107815601) How far out of the way do you want to go, and how hard?  ;) I can think of a few aretes that require a hike.

Gimme the good stuff. ;)
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on October 31, 2012, 06:20:30 PM
if you want an arete to practice laybacking...

Faux Paux ( what the fuck is wrong with my spelling ?

Fall from Grace is hard,very hard... fucking rap bolts.. it's working name was Jim-Z -Arete as jimmy S was working it..ground up. We tried and failed, but it would have gone,

nobody does it now so..4 stars
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2012, 06:31:19 PM
Jake, thanks for sending the link out.  It is great!  All that foot step-throughs and the funky "drop-knee" opposition with the non-plant foot (to create more secure footing) is wonderful to watch.  Can't wait to try it out on rock and fall off!! :):)
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on October 31, 2012, 06:34:21 PM
sneoh- are you talking about the famous "finnish crossstep" move  the inside out foot plant ?

how about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJUx_ArQaU

I was about to go looking for this video! Classic! Love the back-stepping, or drop-knee, or what ever that is that he does during this... Lucky Luke would know the correct term...
The correct term would be "climbing"
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on October 31, 2012, 09:52:07 PM
how about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJUx_ArQaU

Look like a kind of stemming with the feet? Some told me that we can do bridging in book of solenity. I tried it a couple of time, but cheating the move. Stemming is also a find technique to practice. In remission, second pitch, the stemming make the move a lot easier.

he have time to place pro. how he place the rope in the layback is also interesting. The rope was never in a position where he can finish up side down on a fall. He felt the distance of a gym wall. when I was training more regularly, aid climbing, work technique, etc, I was able to commit on long safe trad fall. 

 
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2012, 10:51:35 PM
I just came across this ( http://www.mountainproject.com/v/105962116 ) purely by accident.  It seems on-topic :)
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on November 01, 2012, 09:54:57 AM
I just came across this ( http://www.mountainproject.com/v/105962116 ) purely by accident.  It seems on-topic :)
As the question is to work layback technique, I don't think that training for flagging is on-topic. The reason is because i ask myself the question what did I want when I am working a technique. In my opinion, first, we need to know the limit of the technique, which are our strenght and the barn door when the layback is too open. Second, we can learn when it is best to use layback or other technique or two or three technique togheter.

I know that darwin is not a beginer if he wrote on neice.com under the same name, but the question is interesting for a beginer. Do they have to put all togheter technique, or should they learn the basic technique and go throught more complex situation gradually. Personally, I prefer to learn the basic to have a deep understanding of what I am doing. In that way, I can climb every where a layback technique and don't have to be accostume to the rock before.

As the question is to work a route with layback, you just have to know that it is not a layback that you must do but a flag. And the photo is on topic.  Look at some one else do the route and imitate him. Personally, I don't find it fun. Climbing is useless and there is no gain to be at the top of a 5.6 or 5.10 if you like to be in the vertical world, except the social pressure. I climb to relax and to be out of competitive behavior of work. My goal is to strech in a nice environment at my level, which can be different depending on my mood. Guessing the movement with as a penalty the risk of a fall, keeping my mind open at the danger and using my imagination to find good placement for my nuts, keeping my cardiac rhytme at a low level and staying calm in stressfull situation is appealing to me. All kind of stuff that I don't find when I clip a bolt.   

   
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: John Ski on November 01, 2012, 10:16:59 PM
I think you could practice laybacking on any vertical crack that you would normally jam and it would different whether you faced left or right. An easy jam crack could be a strenuous layback.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: JHandren on November 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
"as jimmy S was working it..ground up"....Hi John, are you saying that Jimmy was working Fall From Grace ground up?

Or anyone else for that matter, they're weren't any other bolts on it before Chris and I rap bolted it. Its a 120ft route and the point of no return is about 20' up with all the business being well above that, so I'm not sure how anyone could have been trying it in any significant way.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on November 06, 2012, 10:29:37 AM
I say working as a relative term... working to TRY getting bolts in. Rain, hail, the usual Cannon stuff
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on November 07, 2012, 10:56:29 AM
Is there a climb I can TR to work this technique? 

Just a reflexion

The number of post is 32 and the number of people reading it is 430. That's means that approximately 430/32 people read it (around fifteen person follow the discussion).

At the begining, the question was very simple: a climb to work layback technique. We have ggood answer and after a while, we can understand that many route have layback movement and there is also many place where we can work that technique.

At the end, some one talking about bolt (sport section) on a route that a handfull of person can do. There is nothing about trad normal person. I mean some one who begin to climb, work fourty hours, can't have the ten or fifteen hours of training to be able to climb 5.12, except by cheating (knowing the move previously, making it many time by trying the route, red sanding it in making the movement fast to not be burned before the end of the route).

In the old time, there is more like fifty person listening to a discussion around the cliff (we didn't have internet) I remember to listen about climbing in a wet situation where they said that it was not the feet that are more sleepery, but the hand that didn't stick to the rock (meaning that tope roping in a wet day could be a good exercise for feet works).

Did the person who write things think that some people like to join or follow a discussion if the discussion is at there level? Are experience climber supposed to ask the good question to improve the safety of climbing?... and are young people supposed to talk to see if the techniques that they use are safe?     
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: SA on November 08, 2012, 05:46:15 PM
I saw someone layback the entire Black Crack pitch, on Cathedral about 2 months ago. Couldn't believe it. Probably a grade harder that way. At least you can rest by jamming a knee in once in a while.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on November 08, 2012, 06:24:16 PM
OK, I understood what Steve, John, and Jerry wrote but I am clueless when it comes to what L Luke wrote.
Anyone care to translate?
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: eyebolter on November 08, 2012, 06:31:19 PM
Sorry Soon, I don't speak Jive.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: M_Sprague on November 08, 2012, 07:25:50 PM
Champ, the OP asked for something hard to work his technique. That is why Fall from Grace was mentioned. He didn't define "hard", so 5.12 seemed reasonable. It can be TRed after leading an easier route.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on November 08, 2012, 08:12:48 PM
OK, I understood Mark, too.  :)
Is that (TR FFG) what LL (aka Champ) wrote about?
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on November 09, 2012, 03:33:13 AM
Is there a climb I can TR to work this technique? 

Just a reflexion 

reflexion: careful or long consideration or thought


When I red the post after the one of SA, that I respect, I thing that I used a round meaning for reflexion.

To work: Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result

to work a route: activity involving physical effort done in order to achieve a route.
to work a layback: activity involving physical effort done in order to achieve a technique call layback.

It is so stupid the idea of working a layback in a 5.12. if they didn't know what is a layback at 5.12...

no reflexion, superficial rule...but wrote to humiliate the other

I hate that

Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: M_Sprague on November 09, 2012, 07:52:38 AM
"Reflexion" is more commonly spelled "reflection " nowadays, Luke, especially in American English. (not a put-down)

To your point about 5.12, you are making incorrect assumptions of the intent. It wasn't to insult or 'one-up' at all. He didn't say he was a beginner. To go back to the example of slabs, I might ask if anybody knew of a hard slab I could TR to work on my technique. That doesn't mean that I don't already have some skills under my belt.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on November 09, 2012, 12:00:07 PM
To go back to the example of slabs, I might ask if anybody knew of a hard slab I could TR to work on my technique. That doesn't mean that I don't already have some skills under my belt.

I can understand that:
                                a beginer learn how to push with his feet and learn where he is going to fall whe he work laybacking technique

                                an intermediate learn how to place his body in equilibrum and when he most use a layback technique. He can also learn how to place a pro in a hard situation or to remove it if he follow a trad partner

                                an advance climber will learn how and when to use his power, particularly to estimate how long he will be ablle to keep is strenght to do the move.

As a climber learn gradually those technique by training outdoor and master it...What do you think he can learn in working a technique at expert level?

Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on November 09, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
What do you think he can learn in working a technique at expert level?
Closer to perfection in that particular technique, for one thing.
One progresses not only by learning new techniques but also improving upon the ones one already knows (but not so well that there is no more room left for improvement).
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on November 09, 2012, 02:23:33 PM
Back to the point- fall from Grace is not a good choice, it's a super hard arete, not a training layback.


Try Possessed
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: bubbalee on November 09, 2012, 03:47:24 PM
I know its not a toprope but try RAVEN CRACK 5.9 cannon cliff
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: frik on November 09, 2012, 04:07:53 PM
Bingo bubb.
Add that together with Duet Direct right next door for a sweet time. Might as well throw in Slow & Easy as it's right there, definitely slow, but not easy.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: xcrag_corex on November 09, 2012, 06:33:57 PM
Raven looks awesome!!!! Definitely on my tick list for next year :)
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on November 10, 2012, 09:07:22 AM
What do you think he can learn in working a technique at expert level?
Closer to perfection in that particular technique, for one thing.
One progresses not only by learning new techniques but also improving upon the ones one already knows (but not so well that there is no more room left for improvement).

I think that at expert level, using a combinaison of technique togheter is the main point. I agree that in sport, you learn by imitation, that means trying hard move and trying to reproduce a movement by falling number of times...and trying an other movement to success. Your progression is faster, you can do it without a lot of training and work a route number of time. Emulation, competition between people are more important and stimulate the climber to try hard things.

In trad, the goal is more to free from the bottom up. So you have to understand how your body is place in the space and see the hole to anticipate the good sequence without loosing to much energy to finish the route and without falling. In trad, it is more important to have a deep understanding of the technique. For that reason, we climb at a lower level than in sport. 

One move in quebec, that only one person can do corectly in my knowledge, conrad, is a double side layback. You begin a layback in a crack right shoulder close to the rock and finish left shoulder close to the rock. Between that, you use a barn door effect to have the momentum to stay on the rock. I had tryed direct finish of "faux quelqu'un qu'il la fasse" a couple of time and was very close to make it...meaning that there is less rock to climb above me than under me.

In the sport thread, the last three topic count around 600 person who read the thread, in trad section...this topic had more than 600 person reading the topic. I can be a bad guy and ask the question: is sport so boring that people don't follow there thread? It is not the case, the meaning of my reflection/reflexion note was to understand the problem and to ask politely expert climber to understand that they were beginer ounce upon of time and to write for people of all level of knowledge...and write thing that is associate with sport climbing in the sport section so you won't demotivate "weaker", at your understanding, climber who don't want to climb with a sport ethic. Edlinger said: the only think that a beginer can imitate corectly from and exxpert is to put is hand on a chalk bag (traduction). For me, the smile of a trad beginer climber who just made the 5.5 move at the top of lake view, canon, is as important as the smile of an expert doing vmc direct onsight.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on November 10, 2012, 02:59:41 PM
Very entertaining, Champ but not enlightening. 
I bet a fair number of people read this thread for its entertainment value! :)  I count myself among them.
I believe, except for aid, the goal of all forms of rock climbing is to move "move to free from the bottom up.", as you said.  Any climb, sport or trad or mixed, is not considered climbed unless there is no hanging, aiding, or resting on rope/pro involved in the ascent. 

Nuff' said, I think I am going to find myself a nasty crack to learn hard laybacking on, like any sport weenie would!! :):)
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on November 10, 2012, 03:59:58 PM
for the billionth time--- it's climbing !!! It doesn't matter if it's sport or trad.. IT DOESN'T MATTER !!!

You can;t get more satisfaction from a sport/trad technique- they are the same--- it's climbing
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on November 10, 2012, 04:47:02 PM
well said, John.  +1.  No argument from me.
Hope everything with the hip goes well for you,
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on November 10, 2012, 05:02:46 PM
Thanks.. it's still a month away and i can't wait.. looking foward to rehab
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on November 10, 2012, 06:29:59 PM
A really  good layback/stemming problem is Gill's Groove at Sundown. It's pretty hard  but.. way good
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on November 10, 2012, 07:50:34 PM
It doesn't matter if it's sport or trad.. IT DOESN'T MATTER !!!

It doesn't matter...for you

It is always more logic and safer to explain the difference between sport and trad and let the people understand the similtude...

The fact that many people don't know the difference is obvious.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: apbt1976 on November 11, 2012, 12:07:58 AM
OMFG CHAMP LET THE DAM TRAD VRS. SPORT THING GO. AYNONE WHO ACTUALLY CLIMBS GETS YOUR POINT. IF THEY START CLIMBING AND DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BY THE END OF WEEK TWO OR THREE ALL YOU EXPLAINING IS NOT GOING TO AMOUNT TO SH8T ANYWAY..

It doesn't matter if it's sport or trad.. IT DOESN'T MATTER !!!

It doesn't matter...for you

It is always more logic and safer to explain the difference between sport and trad and let the people understand the similtude...

The fact that many people don't know the difference is obvious.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on November 11, 2012, 08:11:32 AM

I bet a fair number of people read this thread for its entertainment value! :)  I count myself among them.

SA a well know climber who climb before the spoprt climbing generation said: "I saw someone layback the entire Black Crack pitch, on Cathedral about 2 months ago. Couldn't believe it. Probably a grade harder that way. At least you can rest by jamming a knee in once in a while."

I am not going to layback black crack, even if it is on my stick list for off with, but the question is why should I jam my knee ounce in a while?

a beginer won't know it, but as you work a technique, you will have to find rest places because laybacking is pumpy.

This thing above  is entertainement


OMFG CHAMP LET THE DAM TRAD VRS. SPORT THING GO.                                           stop the interaction between people

I think I am going to find myself a nasty crack to learn hard laybacking on, like any sport weenie would!!                humiliating

Glad somebody mentioned Screaming Yellow Zonkers. The hardest moves on that route                          beta, with no knowledge

In the last phrase, it could have been interesting to say climb to the crux and describe many technique and to ask how you can choose one of them without falling, on sight.




Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: punxnotdead on November 11, 2012, 10:23:00 AM
Ugh! Thanks D for mentioning this thread and the endless blathering of Champ. When will any of his posts be shorter than 3 paragraphs?  Maybe if they were more clear, they would be more concise.

Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on November 11, 2012, 12:03:44 PM
i guess that most of us are too stupid to know the diff. After all, it's obvious......Champ, I have climbed for a long time, in a lot of places and climbing is climbing. Techniques can be used for all types of climbing,, sport,, trad,, whatever..  Flagging wasn't invented yesterday.. Handjamming wasn't either

 :P
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: lucky luke on November 11, 2012, 06:42:52 PM
Techniques can be used for all types of climbing,, sport,, trad,, whatever..  Flagging wasn't invented yesterday.. Handjamming wasn't either

Fugue second pitch, after an undercling, you have to step left on a layback, the last pro is a couple of rp's lower behind. A fall an you finish in a 5.9diedral. A bolt just before the layback and you change the route totaly.
Layback still puzzle many people because the pro is hard to place and often it is place without eyeball it. This make the move harder and mastering the technique of laybacking more important. There is way to move to see if your pro placement is good that you don't need in sport. In the thread of hanold, still in the more interesting trad section, hannold took a fall of close to fourty feet. He show a clear acceptation of the danger and know how to avoid it as he felt safely.
I climb better after I train sport in the spring. Contrarly at most of the climber, I don't climb higher level in sport than in trad. In general sport climber climb two grade lower in trad. I climb better when I do aid climbing in the fall. I plan my season so I am at my best at the end of july...and weaker in september when I go to the yosemite.
It is good to be able to climb 5.9- 5.10 in a trad route in yosemite, to onsight it. And, with more strenght in my hand, I will be able to climb higher grade.   
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: danf on November 11, 2012, 08:18:04 PM
I bet a fair number of people read this thread for its entertainment value! :)
I gave up a couple pages ago, I can't make sense of half of what luke/champ is trying to argue about....
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: frik on November 12, 2012, 08:23:52 AM
I'm starting to miss Bristolpipe

thanks Champ.... er Luke.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: meclimber on November 13, 2012, 01:19:14 PM
I had to peek at what was so exciting in this thread, yup, dumber for it.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: carp on December 07, 2012, 07:50:42 PM
So after having read this forum for a few years, though I don't post much, I am now thoroughly convinced that Champ/Luke is the biggest troll I've ever seen on the internet, and not much more. There is no other reasonable explanation.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 08, 2012, 09:13:37 PM
I am quite certain he is real and really believes that sport is the nemisis of trad :-[
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: mopowers on December 10, 2012, 09:48:52 AM
I had to peek at what was so exciting in this thread, yup, dumber for it.

Seems to be a tread on NEClimbs as of late. Lets hope for an exciting ice season to turn things around.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: Admin Al on December 10, 2012, 12:20:24 PM
Seems to be a tread on NEClimbs as of late. Lets hope for an exciting ice season to turn things around.

jeez I hope so... right now it's anything BUT exciting...
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on December 10, 2012, 06:27:16 PM
The best layback is either at the swift river by Crack in the Woods or maybe Jericho road on the way into Stairs
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: mopowers on December 10, 2012, 06:58:37 PM
Probably a biased view since i am so close to the cliff but..... I think The Great Corner is one of the best laybacks around. Fairly difficult climbing with long sections of continuous laybacking required. Easy to set up a top rope too.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 10, 2012, 07:27:17 PM
+1 0n the great Corner.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: mopowers on December 10, 2012, 07:29:49 PM
Here is another great layback at Wheeler. I have a video of me taking a good fall out of this corner, cant seem to find it.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: mopowers on December 10, 2012, 07:35:19 PM
Anyone ever climb the second pitch of The Womb at Looking Glass? Now thats Laybacking!
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: Jeff on December 11, 2012, 10:38:57 AM
When did Looking Glass move to NH?  :D (thread drift anyone? :-\) BTW, I wish it would--I love that place but it's a long way south, in lots of ways! :-*
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: old_school on December 11, 2012, 11:41:42 AM
Anyone ever climb the second pitch of The Womb at Looking Glass? Now thats Laybacking!

that pitch kicked my ass...lol. Also invisible airwaves (north side). Thread drift yes...great memories of panic and sweaty eyeballs...also yes!  ;D

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/invisible-airwaves/106451575
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: strandman on December 11, 2012, 06:54:01 PM
I thought you said " panic and sweatty balls"  now that's some NC climbing
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: sneoh on December 11, 2012, 07:35:30 PM
" panic and sweatty balls"
I hate it when that happens! :):)
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: pappy on December 14, 2012, 01:32:54 PM
Well if we're going to include NC, THE layback is P3 of Skyhedral on Cow Rock (next to Laurel Knob). Think flawless 100' 10a right angle dihedral with a finger crack and 300'+ of air under your ass. Guess where the name came from. The Womb is pretty good, but even at LG Hyperbola may be better. Of course, just go west to the TN/GA/AL sandstone for dozens (at least) of mega classic one pitch five star laybacks.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: bubbalee on December 14, 2012, 07:58:42 PM
lets get back to daves choice of the great corner at  wheeler. that gets my vote
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 14, 2012, 09:03:24 PM
The Great Corner. One of my favorite climbs anywheres! It did climb a lot better when the fixed pins were all there. Yes that is a fact. It was more fun to climb and lead with the fixed pin.

Isa Oehry following.  This was sans 2nd pin..
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 14, 2012, 09:07:17 PM
These give a good view of the entire route. 400ft of slab 5.6 to 5.10 depending on the route taken to the steeper but still slabby 100ft 5.11a corner.
Title: Re: Where's the best layback in NH?
Post by: Admin Al on December 14, 2012, 09:32:00 PM
Wheeler, Great Corner... +10