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General => Ice & Winter Climbing => Topic started by: triguy on November 20, 2012, 10:59:45 AM

Title: Front Points
Post by: triguy on November 20, 2012, 10:59:45 AM
Mono vs. dual.

Why, why not....where, where not?

Also, can I cut the front strap that connects the toe bail to the ankle strap off on my BD cyborgs?

Thanks!

Scott
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: Admin Al on November 20, 2012, 11:16:24 AM
once I gave up on my old Foot Fangs and got some Charlet M8's I used mono points for many years & loved them. then one day I was climbing Hobbit and Kevin Mahoney was there as well. I asked him what he was using and he said dual points, Petzl M10's. I asked why and he said that he liked having the stability and he only used mono points for really mixed stuff. I watched him walk the little edges on the Hobbit wall. I went back to IME, bought a pair of M10 duals and never looked back. I bought a pair of Lynx last year when they were hard to find and really like them.

YMMV
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: neiceclimber on November 20, 2012, 11:59:14 AM
I use both. Mono's for early season, mixed, and ice climbs that I know will be in weird candleried conditions. Overall, most of the time I'm on duel points. Once you cut the hole in the anti- bot on the Cyborgs it's relatively easy to change back and forth, although I found it easier to remove the anti- bot rather than cut. I would suggest getting a second set of front points as you'll most likely strip the screws if you change back and forth a few times.

You can cut the strap and wrap it around your ankle, works. Just fine. 
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: DLottmann on November 20, 2012, 02:22:47 PM
Pretty much same as Al...

I started in 2001 on dual, then 2002-2008 climbed exclusively on M10 Mono's, switched back to duals in 2008 and won't go back to monos unless I start climbing hard overhanging mixed routes...

For pure ice I think duals are better, M10's or Cyborgs... I'm currently on Cyborgs...
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: fresh on November 20, 2012, 03:53:51 PM
I climbed in BD cyborg, modified as monos for a year or two and liked them just fine. then I switched to BD sabertooths and have liked their stability even more. as long as you're precise with your footwork, either will work just fine.
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: shred on November 20, 2012, 05:20:35 PM
I have a pair of first maybe second generation Rambo's (dual). Although a bit on the heavy side they are awesome. I have been trying to find replacement front points. Seems hard to find, anybody know of a good parts website/store?
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: The other tomcat on November 21, 2012, 09:28:56 AM
I think I have a set I would love to part with, since I don't have those Rambos any longer. I will PM you.
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: pappy on November 21, 2012, 09:57:46 AM
It's funny that when mono points first gained favor everyone and his brother jumped on the bandwagon and bought them.  I never did, and would often get condescending looks from the enlightened ones.  I mean, the ones whose wallets were enlightened. 

Now the ice junkies seem to have travelled full circle.

Yeah, I thought monos were a stupid idea from the get go for pure ice, although it's certainly possible that was a rationalization to keep using my Fangs. They sold them with the idea that you could draft in your tool sticks, which is really irrelevant and even dumb 99% of the time. Plus, it seemed obvious that the most important thing on ice is to have quiet, stable feet, which seemed to me required a lot more concentration if you're attached by a single pivot point rather than a two point platform. And when the ice gets to <1" thick you want as much metal surface as possible in contact with the ice. Sometimes down South I'd break out the old SMC rigids for just that reason because those points were horizontal and laugh at the doofuses trying to scratch up with their little thin monos.
Who knows, maybe they'll even come back to leashes.
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: old_school on November 21, 2012, 10:29:12 AM
I feel that I am more precise with the Monos, but they did take some getting used to. I think they teach quiet feet and displace far less ice than the dual points...I think they do save some energy too initially when they are first placed.

The duals seem to be better suited for all around ice up here. They take a bit more to place..multiple kicks and beat the shit out of the routes, but they definitely do offer more stability over the monos once they are in. I have been going back and fourth with this for years...last year was mono...the year prior was soley the dartwins! Personal preference for sure, but I would have to say that the dual set up feels more secure in most situations and enable you to do alpine ice in the gullies and handle those transitions from neve to blue ice far better than the monos which are miserable in airated or sun baked ice.

Just my two cents  ;)
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: DLottmann on November 21, 2012, 03:43:20 PM
....
Who knows, maybe they'll even come back to leashes.

Never! That's one ship that has definitely sailed... unless they invent a virtual one that automatically disappears just by wishing it so every-time I need to place a screw, remove a screw, switch hands on my tool, etc...
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: pappy on November 21, 2012, 04:19:20 PM
....
Who knows, maybe they'll even come back to leashes.

Never! That's one ship that has definitely sailed... unless they invent a virtual one that automatically disappears just by wishing it so every-time I need to place a screw, remove a screw, switch hands on my tool, etc...

odd, I never have any problem placing and removing screws... What I can't get past is that I use my hands for climbing a lot on ice, which is after all the purest way to climb. And the fastest. The simplest thing to do is just drop the tool and go, which does not work as well leashless. yeah, yeah, I can gum things up gluing velcro everywhere, but I'd still be seriously concerned about losing a tool, especially when squirming through tight spots. Stegg gives me sh!t about how leashes are aid, but, guess what, it's all aid.

But this thread is supposed to be about that other abomination, the mono.
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: DLottmann on November 21, 2012, 04:46:58 PM
So you just let the tool hang off your wrist strap swinging to and fro while you place/clean screws?
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: Davewalks on November 21, 2012, 08:34:20 PM
I'm enough of a gumby....and nobody knows me...so I can say this...If you cut off the toe straps on flexible semi-step in crampons and then you:

--get scared and kick too hard
--get mad and kick too hard
--laugh and kick too hard
--bottom them out
--are unlucky...or use slightly sloppy technique...

You might pop a toe bail.

This is disconcerting. It's even more disconcerting if you happen to be leading when it happens.

Now, I've never used mono points. But I have used both horizontals and verticals. They only advantage of horizontals on hard ice is that they steepen the learning curve:)

Stay safe
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 21, 2012, 10:04:31 PM
I heard all you guys spouting off on how great duals are a few years ago so i bought a pair a Sarkens. even talked myself into likeing them. One day I took  my old  rambocomp mono's for a spin and was blown away by how much better they were than the dual point sarkens... maybe it was simply the model of duals but I went back to monos and stayed...  Whatever works for you..
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: lucky luke on November 21, 2012, 10:47:45 PM
Yeah, I thought monos were a stupid idea from the get go for pure ice, although it's certainly possible that was a rationalization to keep using my Fangs.

Certainly the interesting part of the foot fang is the v shape blade between the dual point. Never know why they don't have that blade on other crampon. When you kick on ice cycle, the blade just cut the surface of the ice an allow a deeper placement of each point.

When you think at the shape of the ice, most route of grade 2 to 4 are mostly uniform in mountain and area with no diurnal melt down. Dual point are better on those place because you have a better stability. As you climb to 5 and 6 grade, the quality of the ice is not as good and you have to climb on ice cycle. A one inches ice cycle hit in the middle don't gave you any grip of your dual point in the ice because your boot hit the rond shape of the ice cycle beforeyour point. At this moment, level expert, leashless, etc, mono point is more than easier.

At my point of view, always better for a beginer to use dual point because the technique is a little bit harder to understand. When the beginer know how to evaluate the ice, he can move to mono point to perform. The facility way, using mono point because you need less power to anchor your point, is not, at my opinion, a good solution. A solid climber on dual point is always going to be a stronger climber to me than a shaky mono point climbing a level higher.

Think at the description of Bouchard climbing repentence last year...describe by Al if my memory is good.   
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: neiceclimber on November 22, 2012, 12:10:54 PM
Tradman, I never really liked the original sarkens for pure water ice. Always felt like the front points were too long and I couldn't get my heels down to engage the secondary points. They were fine for things like Yale or shoestring, but my foot always felt about a mile away from the ice on steeper lines like the black dike. The other thing that kind of annoyed me is not being able to change just the front points without having to buy the whole toe attachment.

Leashes, gheesh those things are for dogs and weird people who walk their cats. Pappy are you a cat walker?
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: Admin Al on November 22, 2012, 01:32:41 PM
Leashes, gheesh those things are for dogs and weird people who walk their cats. Pappy are you a cat walker?

LOL
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: triguy on November 26, 2012, 03:48:24 PM
Thanks guys, I will try mono's out and see what I like better.

As far as leashes, I kicked that habit years ago and haven't looked back. I was out west a few years ago with Craig van Hoy and he told me "if you need a leash to hold an axe, you shouldn't be holding an axe"! 'Nuff said!
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: DLottmann on November 26, 2012, 08:33:40 PM
..."if you need a leash to hold an axe, you shouldn't be holding an axe"! 'Nuff said!

+1
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: pappy on November 27, 2012, 10:10:23 AM
..."if you need a leash to hold an axe, you shouldn't be holding an axe"! 'Nuff said!

+1


Far from a +1, that's actually kind of mindless. No one needs a leash to hold onto an axe, nor does anyone (who knows what they're doing) actually hang from leashes. Basically, all the leash does for me--besides the all important securing the axe to you so that you don't lose it--is provide a kind of mental prop so that you relax and don't overgrip (I don't even cinch mine). In that sense, it's no different than that little hook thingy on your leashless tools, although I would argue that if you are resting significant weight on that hook then you're just another aid weenie. If you want to be a hard ass, then go back to the early days of steep water ice when they climbed using straight shafted axes and no leashes (I think the Designator was first done like that). Climb the way you want, but if you sneer at others using leashes then you are just a f%$king poser.
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: DLottmann on November 27, 2012, 08:00:14 PM
Relax Pappy, I didn't sneer at anyone... it's all f'in opinions isn't it? I thought the comment was funny, and a bit over the top... plenty of good climbers still using leashes.... just no really good climbers... ;)

I must have been using my leashes wrong the first 3-4 years I started climbing because I definitely adjusted them to support the wrist, which does allow a less focused grip IMO, at the cost of bloodflow and options I would later find out...

Bloodflow, because it's a leash around your wrist... AND it isn't as easy to shake out whenever...

Options, because switching hands has helped me a lot in the last 6 years of leash-less climbing...

This is the chink in your armor IMO:

"a kind of mental prop so that you relax and don't overgrip"

You just said it... it's all MENTAL... and if you can learn to relax and not overgrip without a leash, then you will climb better.

That's truth in my book, and strongly supported by the best ice climbers in the world...

But meh, climb with leashes/tetheres smoking and pissing all over my frozen winter wonderland just don't solo past me without stopping to chat first...
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: Mike_R on January 07, 2013, 06:09:23 PM
Thread revival...  I'd recommend that you cut that thin metal band off your toe bail.  It won't prevent your crampon from falling off; all it really does is make the loop of the ankle strap large enough so that when the 'poon DOES fall off the boot, it drops completely off the foot.  Better IMO to have a tighter loop so the thing dangles on your boot where you can reach it.
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: carp on January 07, 2013, 08:29:00 PM
Thread revival...  I'd recommend that you cut that thin metal band off your toe bail.  It won't prevent your crampon from falling off; all it really does is make the loop of the ankle strap large enough so that when the 'poon DOES fall off the boot, it drops completely off the foot.  Better IMO to have a tighter loop so the thing dangles on your boot where you can reach it.

+1

Learned this the hard way with my Cyborgs.
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: triguy on January 08, 2013, 07:20:00 AM
So I got the opportunity to do a bit of thin ice and mixed climbing last weekend and used my cyborgs in mono and have to say I was really impressed with the difference....at least in those conditions. I was surprised at how stable the mono was on small holds and in thin ice as well.

Can't wait to see the difference on pure ice.....

I think I will cut the metal strap off and see what happens....they seem pretty solid on my Nepals.
Title: Re: Front Points
Post by: ELM on January 08, 2013, 07:49:54 AM
I've left the metal strap on an I did have a crampon come loose and it stayed on my ankle for 20' of hopping and swearing. I have two sets of boots. One set the toe bail fits perfectly; the other it has a mild gap and without tension it moves. The strap pulls the bail up and back and once on it's rock solid.