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General => Rock Climbing: Sport => Topic started by: JakeDatc on May 12, 2007, 10:52:32 pm

Title: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JakeDatc on May 12, 2007, 10:52:32 pm
I was there last weekend and the 2 fixed draws were not there.. They were pretty useful for folks either working it in the rain,  working it but not being able to top out, cleaning afterwards..

anyone know why they were taken down? or if perhaps someone was going to replace them with newer stuff?

jake
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: blake on May 13, 2007, 07:18:56 am
i imagine because they looked like they wouldnt hold one more fall.  the last time i was on that route i swore i wouldnt fall on either of those draws.  i even thought of buying 2 cheap draws and replacing myself.  that red one was DONE...the material was like a quarter eaten through. 


it's probably a good thing they're gone, better to put your own draw up than to fall on those things.  hopefully whoever took them down replaces them.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JakeDatc on May 13, 2007, 10:14:30 am
yea.. they had been up for a while.. so i can understand replacing them.. it was the taking them down and leaving it empty that wasn't so good.   someone i talked to mentioned they were great for being able to work the bottom in the rain and be able to bail from there

i have a few extra slings.. i don't have any biners that aren't being used though
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: ToddSH on May 14, 2007, 07:46:42 am
The draws were removed.  The beaners had close to 50% wear. I hope the climb stays like this.  There is no need for fixed draws on this route. If you want fixed draws go to another cliff where there fixed all over the place. I say BS to people who want to work it in the rain. The climb is easier to clean from the anchors rather than the last bolt. I would much rather be lowered on a double bolt anchor that some worn out tat on one bolt. :There are alot of people that climb at runmey that don't enjoy fixed draws.
I have a feeling if a draw gets fixed it will be removed. Todd
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: blake on May 15, 2007, 09:11:13 am
yeah, i really didnt understand the top 2 fixed draws....i mean now it's more incentive for people to do the mantle and not bail. 
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Dave on May 15, 2007, 09:41:37 am
Leave the draws off! If you bail and don't do the mantle and go to the anchors IMNSHO you can't claim to have done the route. Dave
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JBeta on May 15, 2007, 06:57:55 pm
There has been a recent problem at Rumney with draws disappearing from routes. In two cases (on Social and on Flesh for Lulu) climbers were working the route on a Saturday and decided to leave the draws on the route for A DAY in order to try and send on Sunday. In both cases, the draws were found either all clipped to the first bolt (Social) or in the possession of people hanging out at the base (Flesh).

It seems to me that this is a case of a small group of people trying to articulate a stance on fixed draws. This stance is not shared by the majority of the Rumney community. To me, the kind of self-important, passive-aggressive motivation that these people are using does disservice to the entire community.

We all know how to tell the difference between fixed draws and draws that are left there because someone is working the route. Sketchy fixed draws should be replaced. Draws that have been left because someone is projecting should be respected. A small group of people should not try to force their ethics on others without dialogue and consensus.

I don't need draws fixed on Social for me to do the route; however, I respect those who are working the route and those who appreciate the fixed draws.   

Jay
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Kayte on May 15, 2007, 07:20:50 pm
The people who removed the draws from Flesh said that they wanted a "true redpoint" of the route.  To them, sending the route on fixed draws would have somehow lessened the accomplishment.  I respect their desire to do this, however, I believe that if you take someone's draws down you have a responsibility to put them back up again.  Leaving them clipped to the first draw, or at the base, is simply inviting the theft of these draws. 

You never know why a climber has chosen to fix draws on the route, but you can be certain that they do have a reason.  Often, this is a shorter climber who can not safely hang a draw, or has a really difficult time hanging the draw, although the route is within his or her abilities.  Being 5 foot 2 myself, I run into this problem a lot.  Yes, it does make me stronger to push myself to hang these draws...but that should be my decision.

If you do not trust the condition of the fixed draws, you can clip your own draws beneath the fixed draw (the hangers are large enough), or replace the draws. This way, you will not force your opinion about fixed draws on someone else.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: lefty on May 15, 2007, 09:40:47 pm
i don't really care, but flesh for lulu is not a project, its an established route open for anyone to climb

if they left gear on it and then left - that's their problem

a real climber would'nt want fixed draws on all the pro anyway, gezz - might as well just top rope it

what would that be? - a maroon point or fuschia point






Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: rose on May 15, 2007, 11:29:23 pm
hey LEFTY-

Your point is fragile, limited, and reflects upon your amateurish ethics. A real climber wouldn't be knocking others down.

YES: The draws were hung on a route that is normally free of draws. Obviously this person was returning to it, and left the option for others to utilize the draws.  If you took them down, you were obligated to hang them back up.  Basically, if it is not yours leave it alone. 

 If something concerns you, discuss it in a forum before you decide to make decisions for the whole community.

We should be supportive in this small community of ours, not discouraging.










Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 15, 2007, 11:54:08 pm
i don't really care, but flesh for lulu is not a project, its an established route open for anyone to climb

if they left gear on it and then left - that's their problem

Leaving draws on a sport route does not give someone the right to steal them. (Not saying these people were necessarily doing that). If they are removed and in good shape, a reasonable attempt should be made to return them to their owners with a note on the kiosk, dropping them off at the Rock Barn etc. As far as putting them back on the route, that depends. I most likely would unless I was in a bad mood, in which case I might leave them clipped to the first bolt

Personally I am mixed on fixed draws at Rumney. Sometimes they are very handy, but they can get a bit out of hand, both from an aesthetic point of view and safetywise. I would like to see less of them and some attempt to use ones that blend in with the rock more. They make sense on bolts that for whatever reason had to be placed in a spot that is hard to clip or is very hard to clean, but do they have to be on every bolt. A 5.8 is a project for some climbers.

People should remove old worn out draws when they see them, even if they can't replace them. It is better to have nothing there than something that endangers others IMO.

One thing that has started to concern me: Many of the bolts at Rumney are glue-in eyebolts. They are very strong, don't loosen up with use and allow people to escape without leaving bail biners. When placed well they also blend in better then bolts with regular hangers (a fact that is negated by fixed draws!). In short, they work great. They must, however be cared for as they can't be easily replaced. Many people have taken to using steel quicklinks as the top biner on a fixed draw. What do you think constant swinging in the breeze and steel on steel is going to do to these bolts and the galvanized finish on them? At least the aluminum of regular biners is softer.

PS-
a real climber would'nt want fixed draws on all the pro anyway, gezz -
Haha.. I don't know that you should be inferring that Kayte is not a "real" climber. There is a good chance that she could climb rings around you and I know she is dedicated. I'll take that as a joke
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 16, 2007, 12:04:49 am




 If something concerns you, discuss it in a forum before you decide to make decisions for the whole community.

We should be supportive in this small community of ours, not discouraging.

Nice points, Rose
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JBeta on May 16, 2007, 07:15:18 am
hey LEFTY-

Your point is fragile, limited, and reflects upon your amateurish ethics. A real climber wouldn't be knocking others down.

YES: The draws were hung on a route that is normally free of draws. Obviously this person was returning to it, and left the option for others to utilize the draws.  If you took them down, you were obligated to hang them back up.  Basically, if it is not yours leave it alone.

 If something concerns you, discuss it in a forum before you decide to make decisions for the whole community.

We should be supportive in this small community of ours, not discouraging.


Very well said Rose.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Dave on May 16, 2007, 07:47:36 am
Draws that are on a route because someone is working it should be left and then when they are done they should remove them imo. For another climber to take them is stealing. Marks comments about safety and old draws are something people should listen to though. Last year I removed draws from heaven at monsters that were old, faded, and the biners would not even close. I left them at the base and the next weekend the same ones were back up! At that point they were removed and destroyed for safety reasons. They were so bad that if you were dumb enough to clip them you probably deserve whatever would happen in the event of a fall. I have broken a fixed draw at rumney before that didn't even look that bad! I do not feel that I had a responsibility to replace them. Leaving draws when working a route I think is fine but imo I think permanently fixed draws at Rumney have gotten way out of control. Dave

If you have a stick clip you can hang every draw on just about any route at Rumney for the purpose of working it if you want. In almost every case permanently fixed draws are not needed imo.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: blake on May 16, 2007, 08:12:02 am
ROSE!

i just got a bunch of new draws....let's go leave them on a route.



and if you walk into a locker room and see someone's shoes underneath a bench, do you assume they are there for you to take?  NO.  why?  because it's not yours and obviously they left them there.  same goes for a draw....youre not the almight climbing dictator who gets to decide what stays and goes. enough of this self serving entitlement that i see going on lately with climbers.  our sport and community are built on trust and respect.....since when does the line end at other peoples property?  you respect a persons house, their yard, so why not a fellow climbers $80 set of quick draws.  we're not millionaires here.....that's a lot of money.  (im obviously not referring to ratty old fixed draws like on Orangahang, which i think also need to go)








hey LEFTY-

Your point is fragile, limited, and reflects upon your amateurish ethics. A real climber wouldn't be knocking others down.

YES: The draws were hung on a route that is normally free of draws. Obviously this person was returning to it, and left the option for others to utilize the draws.  If you took them down, you were obligated to hang them back up.  Basically, if it is not yours leave it alone.

 If something concerns you, discuss it in a forum before you decide to make decisions for the whole community.

We should be supportive in this small community of ours, not discouraging.











Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Kayte on May 16, 2007, 08:18:24 am
Thanks Mark.  That means a lot.

I think there are two points open for discussion here.

1) fixed draws...left up indefinitely because these routes are steep and overhanging, and therefore hard to clean on lower or on toprope.

2) project draws...left up for a weekend or a couple weeks, because someone had a really hard time getting the draws up, and wants to try to send the route the next day.

I think Mark was talking about fixed draws, and I can understand his point, although I take full advantage of the fixin's :)  What could be done to make these draws blend in a bit more?  For example, if the draws are dark gray does that make them a little more low profile?

I didn't know that about quick links.  I couldn't agree more about glue ins.

I also think we have to do something about the manky draws that have been dangling in the snow and sun for years and years with no attention.  I recently changed out the webbing on Suburban, but that leaves 20 other routes with bleached draws.

The draws on Social and lulu were project draws.  By project, I mean a personal project, not a new line.  If someone has left their draws up, they are saying, "go ahead and have a go on my draws."  They are trusting you not to steal them until they get back and send their project.  The people who left draws on social and lulu weren't trying to fix the route.  they just wanted another burn the next day. I don't see the problem with this.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 16, 2007, 09:30:58 am
leaveing draws on rts that are not severly overhanging or rts that are relativly easy and then crying about them being removed is  lame.  Heck 10d is a project for me, should I go hang draws on my projects for a few days? Flesh is a warmup climb for a huge segment of the  rumny climber group so it is no supprise that the draws got yanked..
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: frik on May 16, 2007, 09:34:27 am
Draws? Wherabouts exactly are these?
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JBeta on May 16, 2007, 09:38:25 am
Tradman,

Flesh is a warmup for me; however, I would never remove draws from the route. Yanking draws is stealing.

Don't think that the "ethics" that apply at Cathedral can also be applied at Rumney. Sure, I wouldn't expect my my gear to stay on a route such as Airation or Camber, but I do expect my draws to stay on the routes I am working at Rumney. Since I expect draws on my routes, then it is only fair that others can expect the same.

You seem to be championing an elitist attitude regading fixing draws on routes of "lesser" grades. If you want to leave your draws on your 10d project for a while, then I'm fine with that.

Jay

 
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: lefty on May 16, 2007, 09:54:42 am
YIKES!!

in an attempt to make a feeble response

Rose: Odd, i thought I was discussing it? Did I say I took them?

for the rest:

How would it be obviuos someone is returning simply because there is gear on a route (btw - I know the difference between a route in the guidebook and a "project")?

Must have missed that fine point in my 16 years of climbing.

Didn't know Rumney spurt climbers had a secret climber code.
=you guys should leave a note at the base of a climb saying "don't remove my draws please" for us unethical self-centered azzhole types

poor me, guess i had better just shuffle my old tired arze on over to cannon where I belong so i don't interfere with your "projects"

Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 16, 2007, 10:04:14 am
There is an elitist code for climbers ;) allways has been.  Tatics that would get you laughed off  a 5.9 are standard procedure for a 5.14  Seriously, I can't imagin me leaveing draws on a climb that gets hiked 20 times a day.. Where is that blushing gremlin...
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 16, 2007, 10:28:56 am
There is a bit of a difference in ethic relating to gear on sport vs. traditional areas. I don't think the old idea of booty always fits in the sport climbing world. The idea of booty makes sense when you are talking about traditional routes to me, though out of courtesy I think it is nice to try to find the original owner, especially for some expensive cam left by accident or under duress. Sport climbing is quite different. Aside from the occasional bail biner booty I don't think left gear is for the taking. Some argument could be made for removal IMO, but I think courtesy should prevail.

As far as leaving draws on a personal project that gets a lot of use, well I wouldn't do it, though if one was leaving late in the day and returning early in the morning I see no problem.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Kayte on May 16, 2007, 10:44:29 am
Lefty,

I'll try to answer your question.  This wasn't a situation with one piece of gear, from which a climber bailed.  When you bail, you clean all of the pieces underneath you as you lower, right?  

Well in the case of Flesh and Social, there were draws on every bolt, because someone was working the route on Saturday, and wanted to get back on it Sunday morning.

If you see a draw on every bolt, those draws have been left up on purpose, because the climber who owns the draws will come back later and try to redpoint the route.  If you see one draw or one biner, than the climber bailed and you are justified in taking your booty, although the owner of the gear is probably still in the parking lot if you want to return it.

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Kayte on May 16, 2007, 10:55:23 am
There is an elitist code for climbers ;) Seriously, I can't imagin me leaveing draws on a climb that gets hiked 20 times a day.. Where is that blushing gremlin...

Nick, that's a fine opinion.  No one feels great  :-[ about leaving draws on a route that gets hikes 20 times a day.  I think the point is -- like it or not that the draws are there -- you should not take them down and leave them at the base or steal them.  As a climbing community, we should respect ethical differences or deal with them via forums.  Taking people's draws simply isn't right, and is a piss poor way to make an ethical point.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JBeta on May 16, 2007, 01:27:54 pm
YIKES!!

in an attempt to make a feeble response

Rose: Odd, i thought I was discussing it? Did I say I took them?

for the rest:

How would it be obviuos someone is returning simply because there is gear on a route (btw - I know the difference between a route in the guidebook and a "project")?

Must have missed that fine point in my 16 years of climbing.

Didn't know Rumney spurt climbers had a secret climber code.
=you guys should leave a note at the base of a climb saying "don't remove my draws please" for us unethical self-centered azzhole types

poor me, guess i had better just shuffle my old tired arze on over to cannon where I belong so i don't interfere with your "projects"



Lefty,

I'll tell you what I've learned from my 14 years of climbing. Among other things, I've learned that nothing good can come out of insulting a large group of climbers. We "spurt climbers" are good people who enjoy climbing just as much as you do. We might even trad climb a bit. I know this might be shocking to hear, but yes, some "spurt climbers" are in fact bad-ass trad climbers.

Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JakeDatc on May 16, 2007, 03:13:35 pm
Such narrow minded people..  these are probably the same people that freaked out when all those pins got pulled off cathedral.   For having such strong feelings about ethics, trad climbers are pretty quick to ignore those of other types of climbing..

as for the top of SO i can understand the need to get rid of the old ones.. and can accept them not returning.. they were useful but not necessary so

Trad.. ive seen this same attitude from you on many boards and it's amazing you still climb at rumney.. it seems like it just causes you a major amount of pain 
Flesh is a very popular .12 project..  the top part seems to require a bunch of time to work out the sequence.  Generally there are never project draws on it.. in this case the person was coming back the next day.. jeebus give them some time to come back to get them.   I agree with mark.. if you want to take them down then put them back after.. it's not that hard.
"Just fix the darn thing! Says right in my Ed Webster guide book that there is a 2 bolt anchor up there. If some idiot chopps it have the fool see a shrink . Then fix it again.." -trad  hmm not so fun when people fuck with areas you like more eh?
"We did the dike today and our car was broken into in the parking lot" -trad   vs
"leaveing draws on rts that are not severly overhanging or rts that are relativly easy and then crying about them being removed is  lame."   -trad       maybe leaving valuables in a car left unattended and crying about it is lame

Lefty.. if you saw a whole trad route plugged with gear  would you jack the whole thing and happily add it to your rack?  i should hope not..   A single piece or couple pieces in one spot would relay the idea someone bailed or got it stuck..  a whole route means either an accident happened or they had to jet out of there in a major hurry for some reason.    On a sport route if you see one draw or biner.. someone probably bailed..   a whole line means someone is working the route and will be coming back to it.    You'd think in 16 years you would have figured out that bit of common sense.. i've only been at it for 6-8 years and i picked up on it pretty damn quickly.


Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Groovyclimber on May 16, 2007, 03:57:07 pm


Flesh is a very popular .12 project..  the top part seems to require a bunch of time to work out the sequence.  Generally there are never project draws on it.. in this case the person was coming back the next day.. jeebus give them some time to come back to get them.   I agree with mark.. if you want to take them down then put them back after.. it's not that hard.

Forgive me for mentioning this as I'm only climbing 10s these days but why not clean your route Saturday and put them back up on Sunday?  I understand it is a project but I personally would not leave my gear hanging anywhere...  Rumney ethics aside...  especially if the route sees traffic.  Can someone rap the route and rehang them, another person leads out first to set the line, or red point it fresh and clip your own.

As you mentioned, if you can take them down, it's not that hard to put them back up.  Why does that not apply to the original party? 
 
To play Devils advocate....  if I was going to lead any of these routes and I found gear on them, why should I be forced to deal with it (just because it makes it more simple for the previous party to come back the next day)?  Where is the ethics for the other 20 people that might come along to do the route?   

Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: OldEric on May 16, 2007, 04:21:40 pm

To play Devils advocate....  if I was going to lead any of these routes and I found gear on them, why should I be forced to deal with it (just because it makes it more simple for the previous party to come back the next day)?  Where is the ethics for the other 20 people that might come along to do the route?   

Got to agree a bit with Groovy the Devil here.  Some of us (dinosaurs) still distinguish between redpoints and pinkpoints.  It may not be that easy (or safe) to clip a second draw into any particular bolt.  Why should I be denied my opportunity to try for a redpoint in the style that I aspire too (hanging my own draws while leading) for your own convenience?  Flesh happens to be one of the harder things I ever led.  It took some work.  When I finally succeeded it was a pink point (Zeb put up the draws for me on one of his warmups).  I still aspire to go back and do it better (hanging my own draws) - probably won't happen but I would conside it an improvement.

Earlier somewone made the analogy that a pair of sneakers under a bench in a locker room wouldn't be considered up for grabs.  What if those sneakers were on a bench you wanted to use in the weight room and no one was around?  Wouldn't you move them to the floor?

In summary I think project draws ought to be left up for as short a time as possible.  The harder the route the more likely it will be known whose they are and the fewer people will be impacted by it.  But on moderate (the definition of moderate ought to generate several pages of discussion) trade (not trad) routes I'd be against leaving project draws up over night unless you are quite sure you'll be there early the next day.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JakeDatc on May 16, 2007, 04:47:48 pm
Groovy.. the draws were probably put up by someone other than the person going for the REDpoint  either doing the route or going bolt to bolt in some way or another.  for someone to put them back is only a matter of hooking the draws onto the end of the rope.. pulling them up.. then attaching them on the way back down as you lower.  I do not think any other routes go to the top where Flesh ends  to say go up an easier route and lower down Flesh

I do think the hung draws situation at waimea is a bit nuts...though i don't climb there very often so i don't know who is actually working what or if things are just hanging around.  On the other hand the only people going to waimea are climbers intending to do one of those routes.. which tend to be done with pre hung draws.  But you will notice that the lower draws that can be stick clipped from the ground are removed unless they are being worked (generally it seems.. there maybe exceptions)

Eric.. i'd move the shoes to the floor.. use the bench.. put them back where i found them afterwards.

Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 16, 2007, 05:26:04 pm
I'd squeeze toothpaste into the toes and leave them where they are, then go use another bench within view.  ;D
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: juanpaab on May 16, 2007, 05:40:12 pm
This may be just me but i was always taught to pick up my messes.  If it was that easy for them to hang the draws before they started to project it, then they can just as easily take them down at the end of the day.  I understand the idea of projecting and the ease of learning to climb a route with prehung draws but if you got them up there take them down, becuase you may not be the next one to climb the route.  Expecially at a place like rummney where you never know who may be the next party,  you could get a group of noobs who think they are booty, or a group of elitists that want to impose there own views by stealing YOUR draws.

As for the fixed draws i would always be weary of the strength of the webbing and would prefer to place my own.  I also think they are an eye sore, Im not against bolts becuase they open up new crazy hard lines that sometimes are never even thought about, but id rather climb a line clean with my own gear ground up.

Joe
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: blake on May 16, 2007, 05:58:32 pm
This may be just me but i was always taught to pick up my messes.  If it was that easy for them to hang the draws before they started to project it, then they can just as easily take them down at the end of the day.  I understand the idea of projecting and the ease of learning to climb a route with prehung draws but if you got them up there take them down, becuase you may not be the next one to climb the route.  Expecially at a place like rummney where you never know who may be the next party,  you could get a group of noobs who think they are booty, or a group of elitists that want to impose there own views by stealing YOUR draws.

As for the fixed draws i would always be weary of the strength of the webbing and would prefer to place my own.  I also think they are an eye sore, Im not against bolts becuase they open up new crazy hard lines that sometimes are never even thought about, but id rather climb a line clean with my own gear ground up.

Joe




maybe it wasnt that easy for them to hang the draws.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: juanpaab on May 16, 2007, 06:10:50 pm
I wasnt there but it sounds as if the second party easily removed the draws before they climbed the route.  I say this becuase the draws were left hanging off of the first bolt, so it sounds as if the route was easily rap cleaned.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JBeta on May 16, 2007, 06:19:31 pm
This distinction between redpointing and pinkpointing is nonsense in regard to sport routes.

Think of a famous sport route. Livin Astro, To Bolt or Not to Be, Dream Catcher, Realization, Predator, Urban Surfer, China Beach, BOHICA, La Rambla, Coral Sea, Just Do It, Parallel Universe, Beat Junkie, Jaws...the list goes on.

All of these routes were led with draws already prehung. To my knowledge, none of these routes has ever seen what some would call a "true redpoint." Are the thousands of ascents that these routes (and others) have seen somewhow less valid? Absolutely not.

This red/pink distinction applies more directly to trad climbs where gear (not draws, but gear--cams, nuts, etc) is involved. Even that distinction is fading somewhat, but it is much more relevant in the trad arena. In the sport arena no one I know makes this distinction.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 16, 2007, 06:28:57 pm
Jake. I am not bashing Rumny. I think the place is GREAT! and a model for how a sport area should be managed. I would never steal draws there. The draws in question wrere not stolen, just yanked so that the next party could use their own draws. I doubt that would happen on a harder rt. As for Elitist attitude being part of the sport, I was just stateing a fact.  Rock climbing is an elitist sport and the best climbers get to define how the game is played... I Neither approve nor disaprove of this system I am just pointing out that it exists. Cheers 8)
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: juanpaab on May 16, 2007, 06:31:22 pm
Pink point is certainly the new Red point.  Its how you decide to climb the route, pink point, true red point, onsite, trad, sport, and if you can live with the way you climbed it thats cool.  I just dont think you should leave your draws up overnight expecially if you may not be the next to climb said route, as is the case in Rummney.  No gripes with pink pointing becuase ive done it but i took my draws down after every day on the route.

Joe
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JakeDatc on May 16, 2007, 07:21:51 pm
I wasnt there but it sounds as if the second party easily removed the draws before they climbed the route.  I say this becuase the draws were left hanging off of the first bolt, so it sounds as if the route was easily rap cleaned.

I wasn't there either and i don't know how they would rap clean it..   I do not know of any other routes that go that high on that part of the wall.  So they would have had to climb up somewhere and walk around..  Flesh is overhanging at the top so the rap line would hang away from the wall quite a bit and it would not be an easy thing.  My guess is someone did it on the project draws, removed them.. then the other people did it on their own draws.

Joe.. where do you normally climb?  Because it does not sound like you frequent rumney very often.
http://www.mountainproject.com/images/78/43/105867843_large_7a3aed.jpg   yep.. looks like total shit.. damn those draws just ruin the whole rock  ::)  oh yea.. kate should really work out some more so she can get strong like a fat trad climber ;)    i mean dave graham hangs his own draws uhh wait no. i mean sharma.. uhh no.. daniel woods... nope i guess his Mowie wowie 13a/b and Bottom feeder 13a flashes won't count, sorry kid.....  oh maybe euros. tony lamiche.. yea no... Josune.. uhh nope..  hmm.. seems like the people climbing hardest the most.. do it on hung draws!

Noobs stealing them as booty?  They can try.. they will fail.  The lowest grade *ive* seen draws on the full route is 12a(orangahang)..  with the majority over 12c   These routes cannot be bootied by rapping off them..
Trad elitists..  don't they already have their own issues with bolting, chopping and pin pulling their own crags to worry about?  

Trad I just don't think it would happen in other areas of rumney..  Flesh generally doesnt have draws on it so it was probably a bit of a shocker for them to see.. Over night is not very long.. especially when you plan to come back in the morning..   leaving them at the bottom is asking for some gumby without a clue to just grab the whole rack and go dancing off the Glory jeans with them..
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 16, 2007, 07:33:44 pm
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: juanpaab on May 16, 2007, 07:36:12 pm
I could easily see a noob stealing draws on a .12 route by not rapping, if it was harder .13 and .14 maybe not.  Noobs arent always shitty climbers that cant climb past 5.8 its the attitude they have.  There ethics, the fact that they climb to look cool and many other things can classify you as a noob other then your ability to climb.  Youd either have to be a noob or an asshole to steal someones draws, taking them down is another story though.  Stealing is wrong and unethical, unless your 3 pitches up and you see a nice shiny new camalot.

As for if that looks shitty, i think it does.  I dont want to see draws hanging all over the place, you may think it looks good.  I guess its a perspective thing kinda like,  I grew up in the country and i think the city is the ugliest and uninspiring place ever, but some people think the city is bueatiful and extremely inspiring.

Joe
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: acatta on May 16, 2007, 07:43:46 pm
I agree Mark.. But will raise it to a Holy Crap... Ahhh... to be back in Rumney in the eighties....
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 16, 2007, 07:57:03 pm
We've created a monster....
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: bag11s on May 16, 2007, 08:06:02 pm
Yeh Man!

In November last year I mooched with a pair of climbers for the day who had left their draws on the route Crusher the previous Saturday, since they were projecting it.  We climbed at New Wave for while, and later went over to look at Crusher, which, unfortunately, was wet. The fellow who had left his draws on it did not feel up to retrieving them & seemed a bit freaked, and so his buddy hiked around to the top. He figured out how to lower down the sketchy pine needly bit to the anchor and then, he rapped the route and retrieved his friend,s draws. This caused me to wonder a bit more about the notion of leaving draws on routes.

I have climbed at Rumney for a while, since 1988, and especially in the years 2000 through 2005. Recently- not so much. I have encountered fixed draws rarely on routes I have attempted in all that time. In my experience, (granted not in most recent past) this problem is a rare phenomenon on routes through 12b/c- solid 5.12.  Climbers who commonly climb harder than that do exploit fixed draws more often, and pink pointing (vs. red pointing) becomes more accepted  (or at least more common) as one climbs harder grades. Just stand under Waimea, look up, and you will see what I mean.

I personally have never left draws on routes I was working on, because I wasn,t sure I was going to get back to it the next day (or weekend) and never knew whether the weather would cooperate or whatever, so it seemed natural to take all my expensive stuff home. I guess I assumed my gear might get stolen. I also have a weird (if not neurotic) fondness for my own 16 quick draws that are set up exactly the way I like, and hate it when I loose one (as I have, since I have a memory not to be envied). 

I have red pointed a lot of routes. I have also pink pointed alot of routes, and have felt satisfied. Some routes involved a go that I considered a warm up, maybe with one or more rests, (sometimes learning bolt to bolt).  Some of them (maybe even after efforts on previous days) I even hiked to the top, rapped down, hung the draws, lowered to the ground, rested a good long time, and attempted. If I succeeded, I felt good about doing the route in that style, and moved on. Some other times I pink pointed routes lead by others that day, on their gear- (a higher style than seconding free, perhaps) and that also seemed fair game. A very few routes had preplaced draws. Of course, there are many great routes at Rumney- and in New Hampshire; so far, I have not run out of things that look well wild for the future. 

Apparently, ‘projecting draws, have become a problem since they are starting to be stolen. I think I,ve learned something after reading all your comments, and its been fun, anyway.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 16, 2007, 08:13:13 pm
Ed, I see you on here. You better chime in too.   ;D
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 16, 2007, 08:15:20 pm
Hey, its a rainy day ;)
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: ed_esmond on May 16, 2007, 09:00:29 pm
marky,

i think all that needed to be said has been said over and over and over again......

 a great thing about climbing: we can have the same discussions about the same topics, ad nauseum; and the outcome will almost always be the same.

ed e

ps. i left my draws on a bolted sport route somewhere for the last two weeks... if you can find them; you can have them....

Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: rose on May 16, 2007, 09:30:34 pm
YIKES!!

in an attempt to make a feeble response

Rose: Odd, i thought I was discussing it? Did I say I took them?

for the rest:

How would it be obviuos someone is returning simply because there is gear on a route (btw - I know the difference between a route in the guidebook and a "project")?
Must have missed that fine point in my 16 years of climbing.

Didn't know Rumney spurt climbers had a secret climber code.
=you guys should leave a note at the base of a climb saying "don't remove my draws please" for us unethical self-centered azzhole types

poor me, guess i had better just shuffle my old tired arze on over to cannon where I belong so i don't interfere with your "projects"


Lefty-

I said your point was fragile.  I never said you took anything.  You appear very pompous in your posts.  Your sarcasm is a great tool to ignite the issue we are discussing.  With that rebuttal, I'll close with saying this topic is a sinking ship.   

To say that preplaced draws are a blemish to a crag, in an area designated for SPORT climbing, is pure "BS".  That's pink for all those pink points. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_point) 

Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 16, 2007, 09:58:19 pm
In the interest of building some consensus from this discussion, here is my take:

The majority of us, it would seem, agree that we should be courteous to each other and not steal things. Now there is a plurality of aesthetics, as one would expect. Some like fixed draws. Some don't. Some would like to leave their project draws up, while others find it aggravating.

It would seem to me that we all should take other climbers feelings into account and balance them a bit against our own.

Re. the fixed draws: Why don't the aficionados of fixed draws limit them a bit to the routes they find the most in need and concentrate on making sure that they are high quality, relatively bland looking ones and keep them up to date. If there are so many of them that they can't be regularly maintained, it seems to me there are too many of them. We should all encourage the ethic of not stealing. If you must indulge your tendencies to thievery, take only the most nasty pieces of tat and worn out biners.

Personal project draws: Try to keep them to a minimum and be aware that others may not know if it is all right to climb on them, see it as hogging a route, etc. etc.. If you leave them up overnight, make a point of getting back to them early in the morning. Facile use of a stick clip could make a lot of this unnecessary. Freeclimb up through the easier parts of the climb and aid through the harder parts with the stick. This shouldn't take so long or be so strenuous as to effect your redpoint burn. It can be part of your warm-up. We do want to avoid rapping in from the top too often, as it beats on the fragile clifftop. Other climbers: if you really want to replace the ones you found with your own, try to put the ones you found back afterwards, or if that is a huge pain, at least leave them at the base or something...no stealing.  Projectors, that is the price you pay for being a bit lazy and leaving your equipment in the way of others.

We all live in a small world and have to bend a bit if we are going to get along and have fun. Save the altercations and bitterness for the serious stuff like Trad vs. Sport and fashion faux pas.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: frik on May 17, 2007, 09:42:43 am
From what everyone says (especially Jake); I should checkout the 12's, at night,  and i should probably bring an extension ladder of some sort.

Ok thanks for the beta!
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: slink on May 17, 2007, 10:00:16 am
I think the rain is driving everyone crazy.Why argue over a few draws that were left or removed,there are many more important issues in life to worry about.I do agree with Frik,I think I could use a whole bunch of biners to add to my aid rack :D.Lots of good hook placements in Rumney ;DChill out enjoy life and climbing
 Jim
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JBro on May 17, 2007, 10:42:30 am
From what everyone says (especially Jake); I should checkout the 12's, at night,  and i should probably bring an extension ladder of some sort.

Ok thanks for the beta!


Ya dude, we could use these extra biners to help re-install the genuine artificial tree on refuse in order to bring back the character of the first ascent... Good thinking!
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: frik on May 17, 2007, 10:50:03 am
Slink - you stinkin' sleezbag, don't be trying to snag those draws.. That would be very un-ethical
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JBro on May 17, 2007, 10:52:11 am
Slink - you stinkin' sleezbag, don't be trying to snag those draws before I get to them.. That would be very un-ethical

Fixed your post dude!
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: slink on May 17, 2007, 12:03:10 pm
FRIK;you better hurry up to get those draws.I can always hook in the rain,I can be there in a few hours. ;D I am glad that this forum is taking on a sense of humor.
 Jim
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: frik on May 17, 2007, 12:59:40 pm
Humor - what you talkin bout? I was serious!
I'm thinking about tackling Recluse this summer & need to beef up my aid rack.
BTW; Does anyone know if those pins on the top of Refuse are still there?
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: slink on May 17, 2007, 03:34:55 pm
FRIK you can always run up Whitney Gilman and get a full   rack of pins for free!!I know it is a little more work than the ones on refuse but they are more plentiful.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: acatta on May 17, 2007, 04:30:12 pm
I already took 'em and they are now fixed in trees for the raps down the trail.. You can thank me later...
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: frik on May 17, 2007, 04:35:46 pm
Jeesh, what are you nuts there slink? That sounds dangerous!
Oh wait, i guess i could always rapel down the Gilman, & get those pins on the way down.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: frik on May 17, 2007, 04:39:25 pm
Cool thanks Alph.
Now i don't actually even have to be on the Gilman to get those pins.
When does everyone think that trail will be safe to descend without ropes & whatnot?
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: lefty on May 17, 2007, 04:49:01 pm
I'am back, sorry, ran out of my meds and briefly broke on through to the other side  :P

miss anything?

Alfonso, need some draws for those pins   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: issacaron on May 18, 2007, 04:33:26 am
LOUD NOISES !?!

This whole thread should be closed / removed.

Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Admin Al on May 18, 2007, 09:26:29 am
This whole thread should be closed / removed.

well I don't think so... I found it interesting & entertaining. at least you guys can have a bit of a sense of humor about stuff, unlike the bolting/anti people.  ::)

--al
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 18, 2007, 09:41:00 am
More rain!!!   Their comming to take me away,ha ha, he he, ho ho. To the funny farm, where life is wonderfull all the time. Their coming to take me away.....................
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradchick on May 18, 2007, 10:04:57 am
LOL!  That's why ice rules, you can climb in snow, rain or even sun!  ;D
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: slink on May 18, 2007, 10:54:30 am
speaking nof the old stodgy conway scene is there any fixed gear in the Cathedral cave.It is always a great place to aid in a rain storm.Alfonso thanks for making a safe descent for the Whitney G..Al thanks for seeing the humor in this whole situation as the rain is driving people nuts.And seriously if you really need to fill your egos climbing go to a climbing gym.Lots of fun on a rainy day and the approachs are killer.Ice climbing isn't that like dangerous ;D
 Jim
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradchick on May 18, 2007, 12:23:50 pm
Ice climbing isn't that like dangerous ;D
 Jim

I prefer to just call it an adventure!  ;)
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: vanessa on May 24, 2007, 12:11:17 am
ugh.
let me just clear some thing up for everyone who objects draws being hung for not even 24 hours.
the draws on flesh for lulu were mine. I hung them up last friday night intending to send the route on saturday. i was worried about leaving my draws up because i thought they would get dtolen. after talking to several people who have been climbing in rumney and other places for many years i decided that it would be ok to put them up past the crux, as the route has an easy section at the bottom.
so not even 24 hours later i came back to climb the route and my draws were gone. the people sitting at the base of holderness corner had my draws on a nice pile on their rope bag next to the rest of their gear! they said they had climbed the route and took them down for me. had i not gone to flesh for lulu first im not sure i would have ever seen them again. i put them back up and went to warm up.
to whoever said it could have been easy to take them down and put them back up: no it actually wouldnt. i spent a lot of time climbing the route myself in order to hang the draws and i was quite impressed that i did so. so taking the draws doen and putting them back up the next day or carrying up a stick clip would not be something easy. 
the draws were fairly new so there could not have been a question of them needing to be replaced.
i hope this clears things up. its pretty sad to see so many climbers arguing over something like this when most of you dont even know the whole story.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 24, 2007, 06:43:16 am
Cool, finaly another poster who spells allmost as bad as I do ;D Ps, Climbing ain't supposed to be easy ;)
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: vanessa on May 24, 2007, 08:15:12 am
yup im a bad speller.  :) and proud of it
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: frik on May 24, 2007, 09:05:29 am
Yo vanessa, let us know where & when you plan on fixing another route..
thanks
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Mike G on May 24, 2007, 07:50:32 pm
Vanessa, Did you send? If so, congratulations!
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: Kayte on May 24, 2007, 09:47:28 pm
She did send; in fine style, as usual.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JakeDatc on May 25, 2007, 02:07:17 am
Van.. well done kid..

hate trolls
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 25, 2007, 08:30:42 am
jake, miss your coffe this morning??? She said it was hard, i said its wasn't supposed to be easy.  With a smiley face. I was makeing a joke. jeeze you are uptight today.................
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: M_Sprague on May 25, 2007, 08:49:55 am
He's just a noob.  ;D
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: frik on May 25, 2007, 09:07:04 am
Ya, but i'm still a dick -cool!
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JakeDatc on May 25, 2007, 10:47:00 am
i had been up for like 20 hours.. i mayyyy have over reacted ;)

thanks for that mark   
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: crazyt on May 25, 2007, 08:22:53 pm
 ???  1st there were pitons. Then passive nuts and the like. Then friends and all manner of camming devices. Then bolts ( I know, they've been around since the beginning) in excess. It's evolution. Stop this silly debate over draws and just hang chain w/steel biner off every bolt. Why the fck not?! We place bolts by good natural gear, equip every route with quick clip anchors, rearrange rocks for our comfort, cut down trees for one reason or another, what the fck are we thinking?  Just adding a fixed chain and biner to every bolt is only in  keeping with Rumneys ongoing evolution.   ;D
                                              Tom Bowker
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: David Stowe on May 25, 2007, 08:34:42 pm
I get to Rumney once or twice a year.  It is a long drive which does not lend itself to regular visits.  When I go I have certain climbs in mind that I would like to get on.  If someone is on a particular climb no biggie, I'll just do something else.  Flesh happens to be a route that I have tried a few times over the past few years and I am very close to getting it.  If I got there with no one on the route but with draws hanging I would be pretty put off.  First I really don't want to be climbing on someone elses gear that I do not know.  Additionally to me it does make a difference if I hang my own draws.  It makes the route harder and more challenging.  It also effects the way that you climb and the positions that you need to get into to hang and clip the draws.  Allot of people are talking about ethics being imposed upon them by someone taking down the draws.  Why should someone have to deal with that in the first place.  If you are not currently climbing a route why are you imposing your ethics upon the next person to come along and do the climb.  I can understand leaving your draws hanging on a climb if you are resting at the base for another go at it, but once you leave the climb take your gear.  The route is not yours to do as you please with it.  It belongs to the community.  While you are one the route, by all means take as long as you like, but when done climbing you don't get to keep the route in the condition that you want.  Why should someone else have to deal with your mess and your agenda.  If you want to do the climb the next day then hang the draws again.  If you got them up there once, you can certainly do it again.  Climbing is a sport of accomplishment a pushing your personal limits there is no reason to dumb down the experience for the sake of convience at the expense of others.  Sport climbing is user friendly to begin with does it really need to made completely into a climbing gym.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: JakeDatc on May 26, 2007, 07:16:30 pm
David.. in this case  Van stated that she was the last to leave and then expected to be the first on it.. this is why she left them up..  she was saving a step for the next day for her send attempt.  she was not trying to impose her ethics on anyone.

The draws could have EASILY been put back after the people were done with it.  have the climber clip in to the anchor.. pull the draws up on a bight of rope and put them back while being lowered.  Even if you disagree with them being left on there.. at least put people's stuff back where they won't get stolen or accidently taken away with your own group's gear (like putting it on your own pack).  Put things back where you find them.

Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: DLottmann on May 27, 2007, 09:41:27 pm
Put things back where you find them.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue, though I am pretty sure I think the whole argument is silly (I'm just now learning sport climbing has ethics), but it isn't as simple as your last statement.  Everyone seems to have a valid point.  I guess on routes that are so overhanging it is very difficult to clean the draws it makes since to have fixed draws.  On routes like Flesh, or Egg McMeadow's (5.9), or A Week with Pete (5.2), where cleaning the route is easy, I would recommend doing that, just in case you are not the very next person to make an attempt.  The party that took them down had a right to, they were essentially abandoned, though good karma would include them making an attempt to re-unite them with their proper owner.  I guess I do know where I stand on this issue...
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: redpoint73 on May 29, 2007, 10:47:03 am
This thread has turned into something that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Fixed draws on overhanging routes is the norm at Rumney and a great many sport crags.

Whether the draws are replaced on Social makes little difference, IMHO.  The clips are far from desperate.

The discussion between pinkpoint vs. redpoint is as relevant as a discussion about the difference between an 8-track player vs. a tape deck.  This is a discussion from olden times, decades ago, and bears little relevance in 2007.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: David Stowe on May 29, 2007, 11:51:12 am
The discussion between pinkpoint vs. redpoint is as relevant as a discussion about the difference between an 8-track player vs. a tape deck.  This is a discussion from olden times, decades ago, and bears little relevance in 2007.

Try leading something near your limit with the draws already hanging then try leading it and handing your own draws.  You will find there to be quite a difference.  It is no different than saying that placing your own trad gear and clipping someone elses is the same thing.  Granted placing gear is more invovled than hanging draws, but both require more effort than clipping gear that is already there.  I guess as a trad climber I may see these differences more clearly and probably more important than some who prefers to only sport climb.  There is nothing wrong with either point of view, but to pretend that there is no difference is silly
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 29, 2007, 12:06:22 pm
Its an eletist sport. If you are climbing 5.14 you get to define how the game is played. The guys and gals at the top end have declared pre hung draws to be the standard though you will still be ridiculed if you fix draws on yoda or lonsome dove and then expect to find them still hanging there for your redpoint attempt next weekend or in the fall when its cool and dry.  That which is standard for 5.12c and harder is laughable for 5.10 ;)  The game has gone arround the bend just for number chaseing and convenience. Without prehung draws the hardest climb in the world would probobly be 5.14a or b rather than 5.15a but thats the way the game is played now.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: manboobs on May 29, 2007, 02:39:17 pm
I've got manboobs and this route is a piece of cake.  Why do we need to coddle people who can't climb hard - or even 5.10?

People should not be talking schmack about the pins on refuse or the cave.  It will only make me go up and take them out once again.

Staying up 20 hours is no feat either.  I once stayed up climbing for 38 hours in a push - back when I didn't have manboobs.

You guys are a bunch of sallies whining about draws.  Seriously. 

Rumney is a choss pile made for stroking the ego.  There is no real climbing there in the grand scheme so please stop complaing.

Who really feels like a 30 foot boulder problem that is grid bolted has any merit anyhow?  Wait - probably tradmanclimbz

Have a nice day,
Mark
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: manboobs on May 29, 2007, 02:41:57 pm
And if I came across my draws that had been taken off and sitting on someone elses pack, I would have kicked their butt.

That stuff wouldn't fly down here in Pawtuckaway.  You would get rolled.

Happy Sport Climbing,
Mark
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: crazyt on May 30, 2007, 09:19:35 pm


Rumney is a choss pile made for stroking the ego.  There is no real climbing there in the grand scheme so please stop complaing.

Who really feels like a 30 foot boulder problem that is grid bolted has any merit anyhow? 

Have a nice day,
Mark
Mark, Do you care to tell us how you really feel? 
So far this season I got one draw for booty but it was my own. Does that count?
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: rose on May 30, 2007, 10:16:01 pm
 
I get to Rumney once or twice a year.  

explains alot!


Hey trad climbers,
I found a nut at Rumney.  Some old guy boasting about the good ol' days back in '92 (ha!):P
Anyway, describe it and where you might have lost it. 
I'll get it back to you.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: David Stowe on May 31, 2007, 12:34:18 pm

explains alot!


Hey trad climbers,
I found a nut at Rumney.  Some old guy boasting about the good ol' days back in '92 (ha!):P
Anyway, describe it and where you might have lost it. 
I'll get it back to you.

It explains nothing.  I get there once or twice a year because I live 5 or 6 hours away.  I've been climbing at Rumney for close to 15 years.  I just think that when you are off a route you are off a route.  You should not leave your things behind for the next days activities.  I also don't think that anyone should impose their either upon others.  The rock is a resource for everyone to use.  While you are on a route it is yours to use.  Once you are done climbing that route, you are done and should not leave something behind for the next person to deal with whether that next person would appreciate draws left on the climb or whether they would be aggravated by it.  Just as I should not and would not impose my climbing ethics on you.  Leaving draws behind on a climb is not local ethics, its selfsih and its littering.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: redpoint73 on May 31, 2007, 01:08:45 pm
Try leading something near your limit with the draws already hanging then try leading it and handing your own draws.  You will find there to be quite a difference.  It is no different than saying that placing your own trad gear and clipping someone elses is the same thing.  Granted placing gear is more invovled than hanging draws, but both require more effort than clipping gear that is already there.  I guess as a trad climber I may see these differences more clearly and probably more important than some who prefers to only sport climb.  There is nothing wrong with either point of view, but to pretend that there is no difference is silly

I wasn't talking about trad climbing.  My point is that the term "pinkpoint" has no modern relevance to sport climbing, especially in the case of fixed draws.  Draws are usually fixed to make a severely steep route (much) easier to clean.  People have turned this from a discussion about functionality to one about style.  I'd like to see you climb Predator on your own draws and clean them.  You would have a really fun time w. that!

On one hand, I've led (and sent) plenty of sport routes at my limit, placing draws as I climbed.  On the other hand, I am more than happy for my partner to hand the draws for me!

I'm not saying there isn't a difference.  But its was decided decades ago that the difference (at least in sport climbing) does not validate a differentiation between "redpoint" and "pinkpoint". 
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 31, 2007, 01:36:40 pm
I wouldn't call it selfish per say. Just lazy. I think Rumny has shown us how a bit of hard work and planning can enable a climbing area to mannage a high number of climber visits without total destruction of the resorce. I love the trail work, anchor replacement and upkeep, parking and bathroom facilitys, reasonably priced pay as you go plan and the  RCAs interaction with the forest service which helps the forest service ballance the needs of climbers with the needs of the land managers. I wouldn't reccomend this approach for all areas but for high traffic  areas some varriations of this approach can be highly bennificial. The things I don't like about Rumny are. Squeeze jobs of dubious quality (anything to get my name in the book)  Bolts on stupidly easy terrain, (even noooooobs should be able to manage short sections of 5.0 terrain unprotected), blatantly bolted gear rts and fixed draws.  It would be nice if Rumny could set the example without the  flaws.  
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: manboobs on May 31, 2007, 01:50:14 pm
Quote
I wouldn't call it selfish per say. Just lazy. I think Rumny has shown us how a bit of hard work and planning can enable a climbing area to mannage a high number of climber visits without total destruction of the resorce. I love the trail work, anchor replacement and upkeep, parking and bathroom facilitys, reasonably priced pay as you go plan and the  RCAs interaction with the forest service which helps the forest service ballance the needs of climbers with the needs of the land managers. I wouldn't reccomend this approach for all areas but for high traffic  areas some varriations of this approach can be highly bennificial. The things I don't like about Rumny are. Squeeze jobs of dubious quality (anything to get my name in the book)  Bolts on stupidly easy terrain, (even noooooobs should be able to manage short sections of 5.0 terrain unprotected), blatantly bolted gear rts and fixed draws.  It would be nice if Rumny could set the example without the  flaws. 


whatever...don't you climb like 5.0?  how was your mordor trip?
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: tersius on June 03, 2007, 11:00:17 am
 Here here (or is it hear hear ?)
Yes David stowe and tradmanclimbz I agree fixed draws are purely for convenience only, and are an incredible eyesore.  Wouldn't the predator arete look so much cooler without them, instead of looking like a kid's jungle gym? And yes there is a huge difference between redpoint and pinkpoint.  Height is no excuse, just ask Lynn Hill (5'2).  One of the strongest all around climbers I know ( B Libby) has a negative ape factor and is 5' 7" and I have never heard him use it as an excuse.
Title: Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
Post by: crazyt on June 03, 2007, 06:52:45 pm

whatever...don't you climb like 5.0?  how was your mordor trip?

Love the way you prey on those that take themselves to seriously.
25% of our DNA is the same as a banana. Perspective is everything.