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General => Injuries, Medical & Training => Topic started by: DLottmann on March 14, 2011, 12:02:58 pm

Title: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DLottmann on March 14, 2011, 12:02:58 pm
I just came across this. Please "close the system" EVERY time you climb.

http://myrbou.blogspot.com/2011/02/and-then-he-fell.html

The very experienced victim instructing to leave the system open to let twists work out is unfounded. A small "stopper know", i.e. two half-hitches, will still allow any twists to work out of the rope.

It's always some basic fundamental that we over-look after so many years of climbing.

The non-injured victim's feeling of anger and PTSD is understandable given the emotional trauma of the event, but directing it at the anchor placement is not appropriate.

NEVER assume your rope is long enough.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2011, 06:39:15 pm
UM......

TIE IN OR TIE A FUCKING KNOT IN THE END .

It doesn't matter if you are "experienced or not, JUST FUCKING DO IT.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 14, 2011, 06:44:13 pm
UM......

TIE IN OR TIE A FUCKING KNOT IN THE END .

It doesn't matter if you are "experienced or not, JUST FUCKING DO IT.

Don't beat around the bush John...just tell it like it is for once would you?  ;D
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2011, 07:03:44 pm
I'll try to be more clear in the future.

Fucking idiots

if you are that goddamn stupid then maybe golf would be better-asshole

It's just so basic, I don't know , maybe it's time to retire    ::)

I can't even conceive of dropping someone, never. Unless they are an asshole, then.....
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DWT on March 14, 2011, 07:04:12 pm
The thought of dropping a partner scares me more than falling.  At least he lived.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2011, 07:10:05 pm
I just poured myself a beer-

I know a "very experienced" NH guide who I would not trust to wash my fucking van. 30 years and he doesn't know shit. I gave him shit back in the early 80's and he still didn't learn.

EX- give a beginner some slack so they learn about falling

DIE

I'm not shittin'- this was a real conversation
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 14, 2011, 07:14:01 pm

EX- give a beginner some slack so they learn about falling

I let my clients rap off the end so they learn how it feels to hit rocks from 45'. It's a good lesson I think... ::)
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2011, 07:46:31 pm
BUT- do they return as clients ?

Since I'm geared up already;

I saw a chick drop another chick to the ground one time at Indian Creek. My standard comment

What the fuck is wrong with you ?

It's OK , I was thinking about some other climb and she she's OK

" you chicks would have a better hobby with hookin'"

You don't have to pay attention and you get $$$$$
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 14, 2011, 07:49:14 pm
In all honesty here,
Thanks for posting DMan. Sometimes it is easy to get complacent and this just isn't the game to do that in. As John said..take the two seconds it takes and put a knot in the end of the rope...simple as that.  ;) 
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DWT on March 14, 2011, 07:56:32 pm
I just poured myself a beer-

I know a "very experienced" NH guide who I would not trust to wash my fucking van. 30 years and he doesn't know shit. I gave him shit back in the early 80's and he still didn't learn.



Who?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2011, 08:00:23 pm
He would lose his jobfor sure.

It wasn't;

al comeau
kurt winkler
ed webster
paul ross
jimmie dunn
bayard russel


Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DWT on March 14, 2011, 08:03:18 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: sneoh on March 14, 2011, 08:05:19 pm

I ask this question with no hint of disrespect or any attempt at it, did Duval rap off his rope too?
I never had the good fortune of making his acquaintance but I know many who knew Paul well and regarded him with respect and affection.

Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: mopowers on March 14, 2011, 08:14:59 pm
Quote
It wasn't;

al comeau
kurt winkler
ed webster
paul ross
jimmie dunn
bayard russel

 Jeez, Bayard looks good for his age.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2011, 08:15:13 pm
No diss- I met paul in '77.

Even so , i can make a case, even for friends. Yuo fuck, you fuck up


How do I put it?  He fucked up.

Now rappin off with 1 rope means youneed to find the middle ?

Maybe I'm just being asshole, i don't know. I have had partners that have died-

rappin' off a tree in Valdez and having it fail  - both very experienced and safe
 walking across the road at Cathedral and getting hit by a car after flashing Possessed

I'm still alive 'cause my main partners and I value a goood belay. It's not negotiable...... ever.

Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 14, 2011, 08:26:58 pm
I'm still alive 'cause my main partners and I value a goood belay. It's not negotiable...... ever.

Hard to argue that point....
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Admin Al on March 14, 2011, 08:48:15 pm
t's not negotiable...... ever.

 ;)

right on John...
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: tinker on March 14, 2011, 09:56:27 pm
I just poured myself a beer-

I know a "very experienced" NH guide who I would not trust to wash my fucking van. 30 years and he doesn't know shit. I gave him shit back in the early 80's and he still didn't learn.

EX- give a beginner some slack so they learn about falling

DIE

I'm not shittin'- this was a real conversation
   I think I Have run into this same guide.   My partner and I were at the base of Dracula and he lowered two clients down on us (Completely poaching the route)!  Client #1  harness one leg loop completely undone the other not double backed!  client #2 mis tied figure8 and no backup knot.  F*&^%ing minor details I know!  There is no excuse for shitty belays or slack attitudes out there.   What we do is dangerous.  When you take or give the rope to another person you enter a sort of sacred trust.  With another human life as the bargaining chip.  Nothing to be taken lightly.  I feel bad for this women but it does serve as a sobering reminder. 
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 15, 2011, 10:28:07 am
Well that was fun....

On a similar situation, I know a guy who insisted his rope was long enough to lower- it wasn't. he worked for a rope company at the time and has climbed for 30+ years. Still should  have had a knot.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: steve weitzler on March 15, 2011, 05:18:43 pm
Good thing John has never been opinionated!!!!! However I do agree with him. There are some things that are just not acceptable.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Mike G on March 15, 2011, 06:05:09 pm
I'M sorry, but as soon as she was done spoon feeding me and helping me wipe I would have tied the knot around her neck. That would stop the rope from going though the belay. I'm just sayin.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 15, 2011, 06:44:51 pm
AH, the famous double noose knot !  Not taught at most gyms
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: cjdrover on March 15, 2011, 06:51:48 pm
Seems there was a typo...

Quote from: the story
"How many people will have to die before safe bolt anchor practices become standard?"
Quote from: what the story should have said
"How many people will have to die before safe belaying practices become standard?"

It must have been a typo, right?!?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 15, 2011, 07:05:42 pm
YA a typo  ;)
I'd rather have a good belay off 1/4" bolts than a bad belay from 3/8 any day.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Mike G on March 15, 2011, 07:25:46 pm
Again I'm sorry, but the part that got me was She made note of where on his body he hit the rock so she could give attention to those places. OK, so if those observations could be made with such quick reaction then what was going on before when she should have been watching for the rope? Her head was so far up her ass she needs a window where her bellybutton is.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: darwined on March 15, 2011, 09:04:17 pm
Maybe she found out about his bachelor party :o.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: JBro on March 16, 2011, 09:36:29 am
I can only assume the conclusions she reaches regarding fault are just a personal defense mechanism kicking in. Often there is a ton of second-guessing, soul searching, and personal blame that occurs after bad accidents even in situations where the participants were deemed to have used good judgement. It must be pretty hard to deal with the aftermath of something like this.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DNorlin on March 16, 2011, 10:21:43 am
I know we all need some humor now and then, but I have to say that the some of the comments concerning a near fatal accident seem a bit over-the-top.  If you want to see the comments from a couple of other climbing forums on this incident:

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/56206/7 (http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/56206/7)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1379530/Help-a-Climber-Round-2 (http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1379530/Help-a-Climber-Round-2)

I see plenty of instances of folks lowering partners without tying in or tying a knot in the end of the rope (Including myself). I'm sure if I asked, the answer would be that it's not needed because the climb is well under half a rope.

We all do the right thing nearly all of the time, or we would all be crippled or dead. We should admit though that it is just possible this could happen to any of us some day and take a lesson from someone brave enough to write about their incredibly difficult experience.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 16, 2011, 10:42:12 am
Sure it's possible that this could happen to anyone... I think a bit of prevention goes a long way though. A couple of seconds thought would have prevented many an accident.
I find no humor in bad belaying, only anger.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 16, 2011, 11:03:25 am
One more point- i finally finished reading the Drama Queen's "story". I just could not get through it before.

The f/a team is to blame ? Good thing you didn't have 45m ropes.

Your health plan is to blame ?

NO- you are to blame

Sure it sucks that this happened, but it didn't have to
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: JBro on March 16, 2011, 11:35:28 am
I know we all need some humor now and then, but I have to say that the some of the comments concerning a near fatal accident seem a bit over-the-top.  If you want to see the comments from a couple of other climbing forums on this incident:

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/56206/7 (http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/56206/7)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1379530/Help-a-Climber-Round-2 (http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1379530/Help-a-Climber-Round-2)

I see plenty of instances of folks lowering partners without tying in or tying a knot in the end of the rope (Including myself). I'm sure if I asked, the answer would be that it's not needed because the climb is well under half a rope.

We all do the right thing nearly all of the time, or we would all be crippled or dead. We should admit though that it is just possible this could happen to any of us some day and take a lesson from someone brave enough to write about their incredibly difficult experience.


Let's not kid ourselves - if the victim and his partner were not so prominent in the climbing community and also on the message boards that you posted links to, it's likely the comments would be far more critical.

While I respect those folks for choosing to remain tactful regarding what I consider to be questionable conclusions regarding fault (seriously, the first ascent team is to blame?) I also respect Strandman for not sugar-coating his feelings about it.

I think we can question those conclusions that were drawn in the write up, and yet still hope that both of them recover fully from this physically and mentally.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Mike G on March 16, 2011, 04:20:38 pm
All jokes aside I hope the best for them that they find themselvs well in the future. However, I do feel that the only way either of these people can move on is to take complete responsability. Pointing fingers at the rout setter and taking back seat to the "Alpha" climber when there is the slightest chance they could be wrong will never resolve the conflict of the mind. As soon as you tie in it is all you and your partner. How can you search the soul when you are looking outside for the blame?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Admin Al on March 16, 2011, 06:35:07 pm
How can you search the soul when you are looking outside for the blame?

and

Quote
Let's not kid ourselves - if the victim and his partner were not so prominent in the climbing community and also on the message boards that you posted links to, it's likely the comments would be far more critical.

+5
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 16, 2011, 06:58:07 pm
I  am done with this one.

Spring is coming, lets argue about bolts   ;D
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: rgold on March 19, 2011, 12:12:37 am
When Myriam wrote her piece, she knew what might happen.  The internet can be a repository for all the base human behaviors that face-to-face contact usually suppresses.  Isolated behind their keyboards, some people indulge in casual cruelties that would not see the light of day in real human interaction, and others stand by and watch, like kids at a playground fight.

She knew all this, but wrote it anyway.  For one thing, she knew that there was nothing, absolutely nothing, that anyone could say that she had not already said herself.  And secondly, in a search for some spark of good to come from her experience, she felt that illuminating the dimension of human pain and suffering, the physical, financial, and emotional tolls of a moment of complacency, might drive home in a personal way the lesson of vigilance, and so help someone else avoid a similar tragedy.

The idea that there is any attempt to shift responsibility somewhere else is just a misreading of the account.  Which does not, on the other hand, change the fact that there have been a number of similar accidents related to anchors set too high for 6om lowering, the most recent one in Eldorado Canyon I think.

An attempt to help others avoid similar accidents, one that exposes the writer to all kinds of attacks, criticism, and second-guessing, could be appreciated as a courageous and public-spirited gesture.  And it has been; just not here.

As it has turned out, the comments that surfaced here are an anomaly.  The overwhelming majority of climbers reacted with empathy to the terrible trial Rich and Myriam went through.  They understood the sobering fact that a moment of negligence can happen, has happened, and will continue to happen to even the most careful and experienced climbers.  They knew there are no excuses, but they also understood, in many cases through their own long personal experience, that imperfection is an unavoidable component of the human condition.  Then they came through with an astonishing level of emotional and financial support.

Years ago, I was on a rescue on the Grand Teton.  A climber who was not wearing a helmet stood directly under the standard rappel to the Upper Saddle and took a direct hit to the head from a grapefruit-sized rock that fell 120 feet.  He had a depressed skull fracture and considerable loss of blood.  By the time the team got up there, it was late afternoon, and we spent the entire night carrying him down the steep scree and cliff bands that separate the Upper and Lower Saddles.  It was dark, loose rock was everywhere, and there  continual shouts of "rock!" from the gloom above.  Every time that warning call was heard, the six carriers on the belayed stretcher flung their bodies over the injured climber, protecting him from whatever missiles were headed his way.

I have often thought about these actions. Really, there was no rational reason for them.  The people doing the protecting were healthy; the patient was severely injured and his survival was certainly in question.  And yet, the stretcher-bearers, in defiance of logic, and in spite of the fact that this guy had made a nearly fatal pair of stupid mistakes, protected him with their bodies.  Here, I have always thought, was an incredible outpouring of human decency, an instinct to protect a total stranger even to the extent of risking injury oneself.

I was a very young climber at the time, but I thought that this was my tribe, these were people with whom one could journey through the most extreme situations, and know that when danger struck you would have whatever they could manage for support.

I'm an old man now, with 53 years of climbing experience (and counting), and I've seen a lot.  By and large, the response of the climbing community to Rich and Myriam's accident has confirmed, all these years later the tribe I glimpsed so many years ago is alive and well.

Climb hard, climb well, be careful, and come back safe everyone.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Jeff on March 19, 2011, 07:22:21 am
Rich: as usual, a reasoned, mature and caring response. Thanks. I, for one, wish Myriam and Rich all health and happiness as they deal with the aftermath of their accident and thank Myriam for her candor. Jeff
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 19, 2011, 08:17:29 am
Climb hard, climb well, be careful, and come back safe everyone.

Eloquent and to the point. Thanks for posting.
grammy
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: JBro on March 19, 2011, 01:29:26 pm
The idea that there is any attempt to shift responsibility somewhere else is just a misreading of the account.

Really?


Quote
As if dealing with guilt, shame, and grief were not enough, then came the anger. I was angry that someone, somewhere put a route up not thinking that someone, somewhere, may not be using a 70 meter rope. Did the last three meters really make a difference in the route? No. Then why not place the bolts so a standard 60 meter rope reaches the ground? It was plain stupidity and misplaced ego and pride from the route setters, from my standpoint.

City of Rocks is becoming notorious for having bolted anchors that are more than thirty meters from the ground. Jim Bridwell rapped off the end of his ropes there a few years ago, and unfortunately, there have been many other accidents of this type that ended up having more serious consequences. Another couple had the same unfortunate experience just a few weeks before us, except that her husband fell 50í and didnít live. How many people will have to die before safe bolt anchor practices become standard?


I'm not sure how to take any other meaning from that quoted bit. The people that placed those anchors have absolutely zero culpability in this accident and to suggest they might be stupid and egotistical is frankly ridiculous imo.

Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DWT on March 19, 2011, 01:32:55 pm
Very true.  I was amazed that so many people on T4T dropped the "You fucked up card"  about the recent avalanche in Gulf of Slides.  I wonder how many of those folks would say the same face to face with the victim.  I can't say I've never been guilty of shelling someone online though.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Mike G on March 19, 2011, 02:16:23 pm
She dropped him. Not the fault of the rout setter. I'm not so sure I see Myriams post as a humanitarian effort. To make the accusation that we can not read and hide behind a keyboard is ludicrous. SHE dropped him. I expect my tribe to tie a knot in the rope and skip the afterfact hero stuff. Climb hard,climb well, be careful, be smart and you will come back safe.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 19, 2011, 02:25:09 pm
I said i was done with this but I feel myself getting sucked back in........................................
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: cjdrover on March 20, 2011, 02:31:55 am
Here, I have always thought, was an incredible outpouring of human decency, an instinct to protect a total stranger even to the extent of risking injury oneself.

I'll just point out that the fact that the rescuers sought to protect him at their own peril does not preclude them from acknowledging his responsibility for the accident.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DLottmann on March 20, 2011, 07:03:01 pm
rgold, well thought out post. And my sincerest and deepest sympathies for those still emotionally dealing with the accident. The only part of your post that I raise an eyebrow to is:

"Which does not, on the other hand, change the fact that there have been a number of similar accidents related to anchors set too high for 6om lowering, the most recent one in Eldorado Canyon I think."

This, along with the previously quoted lines from Myriam, indicate a defense mechanism that is passing the blame, to some degree, to someone who deserves none, the route setter.

We do not need regulations on where anchors should be placed (though I would prefer not next to good cracks). We do need to close the belay system each and every time to avoid this pointless tragedy, which is what another post by Myriam the day after the accident was focused on:

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/54460/ALWAYS_tie_a_knot_at_the_end_o#Post54460

Sincerely,
David Lottmann
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: OldEric on March 20, 2011, 10:26:51 pm
It was an accident.  Pure and simple.  Happens to everyone - usually without the dire consequences that occurred here.  It's easy in retrospect to say how it could have been avoided.  Again typical of most accidents.  I think most climbers who climb for a long time have usually done something similar - but usually get away with it.  - See the end of the rope in the knick of time and so on.  It is  unfortunate hat there does appear to be an attempt to shift the blame - climbers historically have always clammered to be unregulated - proud to be self sufficient.  And I also think there is some truth in the sentiment that lesser luminaries would have been throughly roasted and not treated with kid gloves.  If the exact same incident had happened to "gym climbers" can you imagine the uproar?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: rgold on March 21, 2011, 02:21:34 am
Rather like Strandman, I swore I was going to post just once on this topic. But really, what I have to say is mostly off the main topic.

I think the anger Myriam expressed in her piece is natural and understandable, and I do not think that admitting to those feelings amounts to shifting responsibility, which they both know very well lies with themselves. That's the truth as I see it, and there is nothing more for me to say about it.

I do not agree that setting anchors for 70m raps is stupid and egotistical, but (and here I am worried about starting a new flame war) I do think it is kind of thoughtless.  When most of the world is still climbing on 60m ropes, setting anchors that require 70m ropes is creating a potentially dangerous situation for no good reason.  Yes, climbers are supposed to be prepared for such things, and yes, not being prepared is no excuse, but still, why should one do anything that increases the likelihood of an accident for others when there is a choice? 

One reason might be that the entire area is, by common agreement, set up for 70m ropes, but that is not the case in City of Rocks.  Another reason might be that stopping fifteen feet sooner is a really bad idea; I don't know whether or not that is true on this particular route, but I don't think so.  I really hope that there is some clear reason.

In a negligence case, the jury often has to apportion the blame to the various parties as part of deciding the award.  If I was called on to make the judgment in this case, and if some overriding reason for the 70m anchor placement was not advanced. then I'd say responsibility for the accident is 90% the party's and 10% the route setters.  They get 10% for creating a situation a rational person would have realized could be dangerous to others.

If we have a giant flame war over this and just one route setter thinks twice about putting in extra-high anchors, then I think it will be worth it.

Sport climbs are totally different from trad climbs in that the climbers have to totally trust the judgments and skills of the equipping party.   In my opinion, this imposes a very high moral responsibility, one that I know is not always met, on those who decide where the bolts go.  If you are going to put 70m anchors in a place that has many at the standard height, I think you ought to be able to offer some ironclad reasons for that choice.  If you're just not thinking about it and happen to be using a 70m rope at the time, that's not good enough in my book. Do not misconstrue this as an attack on any particular individuals---I have already made clear my ignorance about the nature and requirements of the particular route Rich was on.

Since the question of regulation has been raised. I think that it is a ghastly idea.  The last thing in the world climbers want is to get a bunch of bureaucrats thinking they have to regulate safety practices.  Absolutely no good, and a whole world of harm to climbing, will come from that.  On the other hand, one has to worry about the reverse issue, which is that, in the face of a bunch of accidents, the bureaucrats will independently take restrictive actions (banning all climbing comes to mind).  If one is immune to arguments about common decency, perhaps the specter of imposed climbing bans would make one more likely to think hard about extra-high anchors.

Given the proliferation of anchors that are too high for today's standard ropes, I think it might be time for climbers to take some action.  It seems to me to be an act of common decency to mark such anchors as a warning to those who might not be appropriately equipped, and it would be nice if the climbing world could decide on something simple but universally recognized.  Surely if sport climbers can hang a red tag on their projects as some sort of "keep off" sign, and trad climbers can mark a dangerous loose block with a chalked "X,"  the rest of the world could agree on something simple for extra-high anchors.  A little loop of red cord perhaps?  Maybe a plastic cable tie?  A red tag with a decent purpose?  Who has a practical idea?

Anyone who is hauling a Hilti and a bunch of bolts and hangers up a route can certainly also bring some tiny token of some sort that indicates 70m ropes are required.  Shouldn't this be as much of an expectation as the one that assumes the bolter is competent and the bolts will actually hold falls? How much longer does the list of accidents, every one of them  the "fault" of the victims, have to get?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: JBro on March 21, 2011, 09:05:20 am
As ropes have gotten thinner and lighter the standard length has gradually increased. You must know this since you've been climbing longer than I've been alive. It seems like we would still be climbing on 150' ropes or even shorter if your "rule" was applied.

I also don't like the idea of marking the anchors since if somebody removes the mark a party coming after might make the reaonable assumption (and they would still be to blame if they decked imo) that a long rope isn't needed.

The list of accidents can end right now if we all take the decision tie in or otherwise close the system and make sure all of our climbing partners are doing the same. We don't even have to haul along anything extra to accomplish that.

 

- edit for grammar 
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 21, 2011, 09:43:03 am
 How about this idea- anchors should be placed in a logical location. How far up a section of rock that may be doesn't matter. I have done quite a few f/a's and have never, not once, thought about pitch length except when running out of rope.


having climbed in the City with a 50m line  AND a tag line for longer pitches w/o problems, I never felt compelled to diss any f/a parties.

After having climbed for "decades" as Myriam states, don't you get a bit of a feel for distance???

Has anyone here ever placed blame on the f/a team for anchors ? Except for bad bolts ?

In ten years when 100m pitches are the norm, what will we do.....................
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: frik on March 21, 2011, 10:10:35 am
I think we can all agree that the Vulgarians are to blame.
If they hadn't interfered, and had just let the AMC have their way, this sort of thing would have never happened.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: sneoh on March 21, 2011, 11:53:53 am
In ten years when 100m pitches are the norm, what will we do.....................
You nailed this one, John.  Even old dogs need to learn new tricks in this sport of ours.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: OldEric on March 21, 2011, 12:02:14 pm
In ten years when 100m pitches are the norm, what will we do.....................
You nailed this one, John.  Even old dogs need to learn new tricks in this sport of ours.


I'm letting my son carry the rope - that's my strategy and I am sticking to it.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Admin Al on March 21, 2011, 03:38:41 pm
Quote
[I'm letting my son carry the rope - that's my strategy and I am sticking to it.

and I'm assuming you won't let him lower you off the end of it! [wry grin]
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 21, 2011, 07:35:34 pm
I'm trying to be nice, really..... but not for long.

I got a 30m rope frombitd that I used at the Quarries... anyone   :o
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DLottmann on March 23, 2011, 10:40:04 pm
It seems to me to be an act of common decency to mark such anchors as a warning to those who might not be appropriately equipped, and it would be nice if the climbing world could decide on something simple but universally recognized.  Surely if sport climbers can hang a red tag on their projects as some sort of "keep off" sign, and trad climbers can mark a dangerous loose block with a chalked "X,"  the rest of the world could agree on something simple for extra-high anchors.  A little loop of red cord perhaps?  Maybe a plastic cable tie?  A red tag with a decent purpose?  Who has a practical idea?

"who might not be appropriately equipped"

How about a little brass plaque at the base of each route stating the length of the pitch, what gear is essential to keep it a "G" rated climb, where the crux move is, and the contact info of the FA party in case you disagree with the plaque.

Sorry for the overly sarcastic response, but this is climbing. We do not need more "signs". As has been said, we need self-sufficency and responsibility.

"Closing the system" is so ridiculously easy it should be as common as making sure your harness is on correctly. That is the simple, effective fix. We do not need to come up with "route markings" to add yet another way to pay less attention to what we are doing.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: hangdogger on March 24, 2011, 07:20:22 am
It seems to me to be an act of common decency to mark such anchors as a warning to those who might not be appropriately equipped, and it would be nice if the climbing world could decide on something simple but universally recognized.  Surely if sport climbers can hang a red tag on their projects as some sort of "keep off" sign, and trad climbers can mark a dangerous loose block with a chalked "X,"  the rest of the world could agree on something simple for extra-high anchors.  A little loop of red cord perhaps?  Maybe a plastic cable tie?  A red tag with a decent purpose?  Who has a practical idea?

"who might not be appropriately equipped"

How about a little brass plaque at the base of each route stating the length of the pitch, what gear is essential to keep it a "G" rated climb, where the crux move is, and the contact info of the FA party in case you disagree with the plaque.

Sorry for the overly sarcastic response, but this is climbing. We do not need more "signs". As has been said, we need self-sufficency and responsibility.

"Closing the system" is so ridiculously easy it should be as common as making sure your harness is on correctly. That is the simple, effective fix. We do not need to come up with "route markings" to add yet another way to pay less attention to what we are doing.
 
That is it in a nutshell
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: OldEric on March 24, 2011, 10:57:01 am
It seems to me to be an act of common decency to mark such anchors as a warning to those who might not be appropriately equipped, and it would be nice if the climbing world could decide on something simple but universally recognized.  Surely if sport climbers can hang a red tag on their projects as some sort of "keep off" sign, and trad climbers can mark a dangerous loose block with a chalked "X,"  the rest of the world could agree on something simple for extra-high anchors.  A little loop of red cord perhaps?  Maybe a plastic cable tie?  A red tag with a decent purpose?  Who has a practical idea?

"who might not be appropriately equipped"

How about a little brass plaque at the base of each route stating the length of the pitch, what gear is essential to keep it a "G" rated climb, where the crux move is, and the contact info of the FA party in case you disagree with the plaque.

Sorry for the overly sarcastic response, but this is climbing. We do not need more "signs". As has been said, we need self-sufficency and responsibility.

"Closing the system" is so ridiculously easy it should be as common as making sure your harness is on correctly. That is the simple, effective fix. We do not need to come up with "route markings" to add yet another way to pay less attention to what we are doing.

You may think you are being cleverly witty with what you think are your over the top solutions - but do you know that everything you suggested plus lots more is standard practice in many areas of the world?  Many places of the world where they climb far harder on the average than around here. This American attitude of - "we're manly self sufficient tough guys who can take care of our-selves" is all fine and good and certainly has it's place - its nice to keep alive the traditions of our sport.  I am not in favor of the universal sanitizing and dumbing down of climbing as is common now a days.  But burying your head and not keeping an open mind and not being aware of world wide trends - whether you agree with them or not - is just setting you up for failure.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: hangdogger on March 24, 2011, 07:07:57 pm
uh, what? ???
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: M_Sprague on March 24, 2011, 08:17:44 pm
uh, what? ???

That's easy. When burying your head, you make an ass of your self.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DLottmann on March 24, 2011, 09:24:01 pm
 ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: JBro on March 24, 2011, 09:49:49 pm
Can someone please tell me why how hard people climb in certain parts of the world excuses them from apparantly having really sucky ideas when it comes to managing their crags...?  ???
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: M_Sprague on March 24, 2011, 10:03:35 pm
American
(http://iamheather.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/head-in-sand.jpg)

French
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XU9x8G7khv0/TJfKV4mrktI/AAAAAAAAQrw/2xxR6Gmn3Jw/s400/girl+buried+in+sand-.jpg)

or Indian
(http://www.everythingweird.com/images/yoyo.jpg)

Which is better?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DLottmann on March 24, 2011, 10:32:53 pm
You may think you are being cleverly witty with what you think are your over the top solutions - but do you know that everything you suggested plus lots more is standard practice in many areas of the world?  Many places of the world where they climb far harder on the average than around here. This American attitude of - "we're manly self sufficient tough guys who can take care of our-selves" is all fine and good and certainly has it's place - its nice to keep alive the traditions of our sport.  I am not in favor of the universal sanitizing and dumbing down of climbing as is common now a days.  But burying your head and not keeping an open mind and not being aware of world wide trends - whether you agree with them or not - is just setting you up for failure.

I have read this 4 or 5 times and I still don't know how to respond. Cleverly witty? Over the top solutions? Burying my head and not keeping an open mind?

Your post just confuses me.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: hangdogger on March 24, 2011, 10:43:43 pm
When did closing the system and taking care of yourself become obsolete?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 25, 2011, 06:12:40 am
Somewhere in the distance you can hear a dead horse whisper...."stop kicking me"!!!!  ::)
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Mike G on March 25, 2011, 06:44:05 am
Old Eric confused me also,especially when he said ice climbing was easy. Whawhawhat?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: hangdogger on March 25, 2011, 07:20:13 am
Adios, Mr. Deadhorse.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 25, 2011, 07:21:37 am
Adios, Mr. Deadhorse.

LOL  ;D
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: OldEric on March 25, 2011, 11:24:53 am
You may think you are being cleverly witty with what you think are your over the top solutions - but do you know that everything you suggested plus lots more is standard practice in many areas of the world?  Many places of the world where they climb far harder on the average than around here. This American attitude of - "we're manly self sufficient tough guys who can take care of our-selves" is all fine and good and certainly has it's place - its nice to keep alive the traditions of our sport.  I am not in favor of the universal sanitizing and dumbing down of climbing as is common now a days.  But burying your head and not keeping an open mind and not being aware of world wide trends - whether you agree with them or not - is just setting you up for failure.

I have read this 4 or 5 times and I still don't know how to respond. Cleverly witty? Over the top solutions? Burying my head and not keeping an open mind?

Your post just confuses me.

I know I know I know that I should let this poor horsey rest but I want to make one more attempt to explain myself - haven't done a good job obviously and there isn't even a language barrier excuse to fall back on.

You originally said (and I am lousy at quoting - so this is just a cut and paste):

How about a little brass plaque at the base of each route stating the length of the pitch, what gear is essential to keep it a "G" rated climb, where the crux move is, and the contact info of the FA party in case you disagree with the plaque.

Sorry for the overly sarcastic response, but this is climbing. We do not need more "signs". As has been said, we need self-sufficency and responsibility.


And I concluded that you thought that the plaque suggestion was so over the top that it was obviously sarcastic (and the fact that you dragged it out with the FA stuff indicated to me that you thought you were being witty in your over the top stuff).  My point was that"

1. the plague or sign giving beta on the route is pretty common in many places (and as an aside to Rich's original suggestion that there be some convention indicating how long the rap is - that too is pretty common on many places already).
2.  that additionally to the plaque there are other conventions that are commonly used - colored hangers meaning "crux here", "routes diverge", etc.
3. in places where these things are common the level of climbing is typically higher than in N. Conway, NH.

(and as another aside - some of these things have been historically done in these pats for longer then you have been alive - route names/grades painted at the base of climbs at Crow Hill in the 50's for example).

And finally I assumed that your second sentence - the one about self responsibility - would be the typical thought pattern by most readers even if they were aware of my 3 points above.  My "burying your head" was about that.  If you are intentionally choosing not to make use of these types of conveniences - and by extension not allow them on "your" cliffs - that is fine.  It's in the same vain as Henry not using cams or the barefoot craze that repeats every 10-20 years.  It's more of a challenge , it's being true to the roots, yada yada.  Just do it knowing the pros and cons and being aware if how things are done elsewhere - not as a knee jerk reaction of the style "We don't care what those pansy grade inflating Euros do - in NH we are real men and take care of ourselves" (that was an over the top example of being sarcastic in case you didn't get it).  If you want to make N Conway (and there are many "N Conway's" across the country - slabbo has one in CO) an Amish climbing area that's fine.  My roots are there - I appreciate and respect and participate in that type of climbing all the time.  But I am also aware of trends.  So make your choices from an informed position.

Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: perswig on March 25, 2011, 12:43:47 pm
So.....



plaque wars are going to be the new bolt wars?



Please advise.
Dale
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DGoguen on March 25, 2011, 02:18:21 pm
Old Eric quoted "If you want to make N Conway an Amish climbing area that's fine.  My roots are there - I appreciate and respect and participate in that type of climbing all the time.  But I am also aware of trends.  So make your choices from an informed position".[/quote]

I agree. Luckily with todays modern transportation it's just a 45 min. buggy ride across the Kanc to Lincoln and a little south to exit 26 to get to Europe. It's just a choice.
It's just as important to know everything at the buffet, You don't have to put it on your plate.
I'm sure DMan is aware of whats around.


YO Old School, stop tryin ta kill my horse.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 25, 2011, 03:47:42 pm
I have not read the whole thread but i did get the gist that some think it was somhow the responsibility of the rout setters to  make it  easy for  folks to lower after the climb. that is a bunch of BS inmop.  Why does everyone have to lower all the time? bunch of lazy behavior that wears out your rope.    If its too far to  rap with one rope then  use two. don't blame someone else for not figuering that out yourself...
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 25, 2011, 04:28:33 pm
YO Old School, stop tryin ta kill my horse.

Yo you...Amish in the house!!! I take back my horse comment..didn't know you were pimp'n your ride!  ;D
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DLottmann on March 25, 2011, 07:50:12 pm

1. the plague or sign giving beta on the route is pretty common in many places (and as an aside to Rich's original suggestion that there be some convention indicating how long the rap is - that too is pretty common on many places already).
2.  that additionally to the plaque there are other conventions that are commonly used - colored hangers meaning "crux here", "routes diverge", etc.
3. in places where these things are common the level of climbing is typically higher than in N. Conway, NH.

(and as another aside - some of these things have been historically done in these pats for longer then you have been alive - route names/grades painted at the base of climbs at Crow Hill in the 50's for example).
...
So make your choices from an informed position.

Thanks for the clarification. I think my choices are from an informed position. I hope you are right in referring to these plaques and other "commonly used conventions" as "trends". Trends are often short lived, so I hope these conveniences don't become "standard practices". Luckily I don't think most modern climbers believe spray painting names/grades of routes at the base of climbs is still an OK practice, as your Crow Hill example refers to.

There is so much grey area in climbing, and I have been on the minority side in North Conway when it comes to adding bolted anchors to climbs where I did not feel other options (gear anchors) existed (top of Bombardment).

You mention my comments about "self sufficiency" as an almost archaic idea, one to be to squashed with the desire to sterilize our experience in the name of safer climbing. Twice you've mentioned climbing harder grades may somehow add validity to the practices in other areas.

Comparing "North Conway" ethics, while somewhat passionate about "preserving an experience" to "Amish" type climbing, solidifies my opinion you and I will not see eye to eye about this issue, especially through an internet forum, so I am bowing out of this discussion going forward.

All the best, and at least we'll all save money on guidebooks in 2020.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: M_Sprague on March 25, 2011, 09:36:11 pm
Anyone for a game of chess?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: JBro on March 25, 2011, 11:10:59 pm
Anyone for a game of chess?

How about some nl hold'em?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: JBro on March 25, 2011, 11:14:26 pm

1. the plague or sign giving beta on the route is pretty common in many places (and as an aside to Rich's original suggestion that there be some convention indicating how long the rap is - that too is pretty common on many places already).
2.  that additionally to the plaque there are other conventions that are commonly used - colored hangers meaning "crux here", "routes diverge", etc.
3. in places where these things are common the level of climbing is typically higher than in N. Conway, NH.

(and as another aside - some of these things have been historically done in these pats for longer then you have been alive - route names/grades painted at the base of climbs at Crow Hill in the 50's for example).
...
So make your choices from an informed position.

Thanks for the clarification. I think my choices are from an informed position. I hope you are right in referring to these plaques and other "commonly used conventions" as "trends". Trends are often short lived, so I hope these conveniences don't become "standard practices". Luckily I don't think most modern climbers believe spray painting names/grades of routes at the base of climbs is still an OK practice, as your Crow Hill example refers to.

There is so much grey area in climbing, and I have been on the minority side in North Conway when it comes to adding bolted anchors to climbs where I did not feel other options (gear anchors) existed (top of Bombardment).

You mention my comments about "self sufficiency" as an almost archaic idea, one to be to squashed with the desire to sterilize our experience in the name of safer climbing. Twice you've mentioned climbing harder grades may somehow add validity to the practices in other areas.

Comparing "North Conway" ethics, while somewhat passionate about "preserving an experience" to "Amish" type climbing, solidifies my opinion you and I will not see eye to eye about this issue, especially through an internet forum, so I am bowing out of this discussion going forward.

All the best, and at least we'll all save money on guidebooks in 2020.

+ like 1 million toward your general sentiments

edit: except why bow out of the discussion?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: slink on March 26, 2011, 02:06:22 am
 Plaques on routes is an absurd way to treat nature,must be a sport climber where everything is bolted. Yes in some european climbing areas they have plaques but that is an exception not the norm. I was up on Dream of wild turkeys in Red Rocks and there was a plaque with an arrow a freakin street sign 300 feet up the cliff and all I could say was WTF read the freaking guide book. 60 M is standard now and almost all guide book will say if a longer rope is needed. And really it takes 2 seconds to tie a knot in the end of a rope
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Mike G on March 26, 2011, 06:56:17 am
Dman don't go! The euro road map is bs! I'm not a bolt chopper or hard climber but if I ever get on a rout in NH where the crux is marked, let the choppin begin. If climbing hard = having the rout spelled out for you then I think the point of climbing is missed. And really, to compare the "level" of climbing to N. Conway is nuts, a lot of world class men and women have come from here.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 26, 2011, 07:35:24 am
that little piece of painted angle was bolted there when i first did dream of Wild turkeys and prince of darkness in 1986. I thought it was pretty cool at the time. We did the Turkey first as it was in the guide book. Prince of darkness wasa not in the gude but we did have a topo on a bar napkin. the sighn at the intersection of the 2 routs was kind of cool at the time and all the hangers on POD were painted black. i also recall that the hangers on yellow brick road were yellow.  Did POD again in 2004 and did not see the road sign at that intersection.  That same trip in 2004 we stopped at crawdad caynon and looked at the place. they had those little brass plaques at the base of climbs. It was a private campground/outdoor climbing gym. looked pretty cheesey so we moved on and found free camping and climbing at Prophesy Wall.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: OldEric on March 26, 2011, 10:36:28 am
I want to make it clear that I am not advocating for one side or the other.  I am just trying to raise awareness.  The DoWT/Yellow Brick Road "intersection sign" is a long standing example.  Likewise the hood ornament bolted on El Cap.  How about the bolt on on Big Banana at Sundown?  The signs and arrows on the rap route off of the 3rd Flat iron.  All the painting at Seneca (and Crow) from the military 60 years ago.  Cables on Half Dome and Longs Peak.  The point is that the traditional bastions of climbing aren't that pure.  If you take the time to read back in this thread the beginning of the "discussion" was triggered that there be some indication of the length of rope need to get down on some climbs.  And the majority of the responses were of the ilk - "tie knots" or "close the system".  And that strikes me as an example of a one size fits all mentality without really thinking things through.  "My Country right or wrong" or how about "Live Free or Die."  Think.  Does everyone here wear a helmut every time you climb?  If not and you ever get a head injury you know what the Monday morning QB's will say.    Or are you going to spout off some "situationally dependent" answer.  Question authority.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 26, 2011, 12:48:34 pm
Will plaques be hand drilled ? Must we usestainless or will that cause a chemical reaction with a brass plaque ?  ;)

Good thing the B lack Canyon is near  so I can ride my Amish buggy over there and impose my NH ethic. If you forget a knot there , it's a LONG way down.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: sneoh on March 26, 2011, 06:59:48 pm
I rapped L29 at Red Rocks with Eric.  We triple checked everything before each rap and we knotted the ends of the ropes (2x 60m).  One rap (from the top of P5?) was mostly free and a LONG way off the deck.
I just wish the approach/trail-in was easier to find and easier to remain on it.  I am pretty sure we got off track and hence took us forever to get to the base of L29.  Plagues to indicate the best way in and out would have been very useful! :)  
Even though the route was freed a long time ago, we brought our 60m ropes to it in 1998 (60m rope not that common yet).  Except for the not-overwhelming weight penalty over 2x 50m, we did not see any other downside.

Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DLottmann on March 26, 2011, 08:34:15 pm
I want to make it clear that I am not advocating for one side or the other.  I am just trying to raise awareness.  The DoWT/Yellow Brick Road "intersection sign" is a long standing example.  Likewise the hood ornament bolted on El Cap.  How about the bolt on on Big Banana at Sundown?  The signs and arrows on the rap route off of the 3rd Flat iron.  All the painting at Seneca (and Crow) from the military 60 years ago.  Cables on Half Dome and Longs Peak.  The point is that the traditional bastions of climbing aren't that pure.  If you take the time to read back in this thread the beginning of the "discussion" was triggered that there be some indication of the length of rope need to get down on some climbs.  And the majority of the responses were of the ilk - "tie knots" or "close the system".  And that strikes me as an example of a one size fits all mentality without really thinking things through.  "My Country right or wrong" or how about "Live Free or Die."  Think.  Does everyone here wear a helmut every time you climb?  If not and you ever get a head injury you know what the Monday morning QB's will say.    Or are you going to spout off some "situationally dependent" answer.  Question authority.

Dragged back in.

Me, raising awareness = close the system.... oh, and wear a helmet...

<leaves thread again>

Sorry, spending all my time trying to understand today's paper...
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: JBro on March 26, 2011, 11:02:48 pm
Think.  Does everyone here wear a helmut every time you climb?  If not and you ever get a head injury you know what the Monday morning QB's will say.    Or are you going to spout off some "situationally dependent" answer.  Question authority.


If I choose not to wear a helmut and suffer a head injury, hopefully I would realize it was my choice and my fault and not make a blog that seemingly insuates otherwise.

Most of the Monday morning QB'ing in the thread is not because they didn't close the system, it's because of the blog comments about the route setters and the message it sends.

Rejecting a complex solution that requires community "hand holding" and rules in favor of a simple solution that relies on personal responsibility is not closing your mind.



Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: MAmedic on March 27, 2011, 07:37:44 pm
I rapped L29 at Red Rocks with Eric.  We triple checked everything before each rap and we knotted the ends of the ropes (2x 60m).  One rap (from the top of P5?) was mostly free and a LONG way off the deck.
I just wish the approach/trail-in was easier to find and easier to remain on it.  I am pretty sure we got off track and hence took us forever to get to the base of L29.  Plagues to indicate the best way in and out would have been very useful! :)  
Even though the route was freed a long time ago, we brought our 60m ropes to it in 1998 (60m rope not that common yet).  Except for the not-overwhelming weight penalty over 2x 50m, we did not see any other downside.



You got lost in the woods looking for a five pitch rock climb?! How tall were the trees dude?

Im glad you climbed safe and closed your system but bolting signs to rock or trees only helps one that cant be bothered to take responsibility.  What ever happened to adventure in the woods? Is climbing now so grade and achievement focused that climbers can"t be bothered to take responsibility to be safe?  One can climb hard routes, thats great.  But if you dont know how to do it safely from the time you leave your house until the time you get back what is the point?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DGoguen on March 27, 2011, 08:46:16 pm
Oh great! Now look what you've done.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: old_school on March 27, 2011, 08:47:51 pm
Oh great! Now look what you've done.


See? See?  That guy waiting in the background is coming over to kick it!  ;)
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: sneoh on March 27, 2011, 09:04:03 pm
You got lost in the woods looking for a five pitch rock climb?! How tall were the trees dude?

Oh, L29 to the top is more pitches.  Nine in total I think.  Almost all parties rap after P5, P6, or P7.  P5 is the crux pitch.
Actually, it has a well-deserved reputation of being hard to find.  Too much detail to go in here.  We took 3++ hours of hiking along a dry river bed, bushwhacking, and steep scrambling to get to the base of the climb.  We stopped at the rock shop the next day to inquire and they had a good laugh.  We were told that our experience is not uncommon at all.  Even knowing the short way in will take 2/2+ hours.  A good number of parties hike in 2+ hours the previous evening to bivy and then do the last bit of hiking after first light.  If I ever want to go in again (not for L29, which is too hard for me now but Eagle Dance next to it), I might do the same (bivy the previous night). I was exhausted by the time we got to the base of L29 that day.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: OldEric on March 27, 2011, 09:54:52 pm
Oh great! Now look what you've done.


Like the hydra - for every head you chop 7 more will appear,
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: strandman on March 28, 2011, 09:26:50 am
I'm looking for the photo of Mongo punching the horse in Blazing Saddles !
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Jeff on March 29, 2011, 01:41:00 pm
John-- thanks for reminding me of that scene-- LMAO again thinking of it!
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: tinker on March 29, 2011, 04:53:38 pm
So in closing ;)  Close the system everytime, everywhere.  Be aware, and do not beat dead horses!
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: rightcross on April 01, 2011, 09:42:27 am
First lets be intellectual about this, then I will flame!

A)  I never tie a end in my rope Unless I'm climbing at night time.  that goes for lowering some off or rapping!  I have never felt the need to but what do i know I've been climbing for 17 years and that is trad climbing not spurt or gym!

B) Who was at fault for this accident was the climbing party.  They know and i'm sure it has ran through Myriamís mind millions upon millions of time, i should have been watching the rope or tied a knot or checked to see the length of the pitch.  But that did not happen and an accident happened.  Why because they thought the anchors were set up for a 60 m rapp not 70m.  From what I was told the last 10 m of the climb do not matter. Seriously How many areas set up anchors at all different lengths? 50m, 60m, 70m and how many people use a 70m rope? especially spurt climbing???  Since this happened Rich and Myriam have been thinking how to prevent this from happening to other people.  They don't want to see anyone get hurt and go thought the same thing of what happened to them.  IMO I think it's a good idea to standard lengths on anchors 60m and if they are not mark the anchor with a 70m tag.  It's not a hard thing to do and may save future climbers from going through the same thing.

C)NOW FOR the STRANDMAN FLAME: Maybe if Strandman said complacency instead of "fucking idiot" I would have not replied but since he did, it pissed me off and now I'm making a reply. 

I know Rich and Myriam, climbed w/ them both and they are far from "fucking idiots"!  In fact they highly intellectuals far smarter than i will ever be and judging by strandmans half-wit replies I know I'm far smarter then he will ever be so that makes strandman bottom of the brains food chain!  Call Myriam a drama queen, are you fucking kidding me she went through a horrifying experience watching her best friend and lover fall.  Something that will stick in her mind forever and she is just simply trying tell people about it to help get past what happened and also make aware to people that this can happen to anyone.  So Strandman judging by you 1000+ posts you seem much more like a drama queen well definitely a queen!  And you talk about their insurance but you are crying about how you have to pay 26k for new hip.  maybe if you stretched and took care of yourself you wouldn't need a hip.

So strandman what is your real name anyway? or you just want to hide behind stringdickman?  Anyway I invite you to come down to the cliffs at Valhalla climbing gym April 5 between 7pm-10pm and dare you to spout off shit like you have been on this thread and see how many teeth you leave with.
John O
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on April 01, 2011, 10:06:38 am
Cool, It's 5th grade again..

Any way you look at it you can not pass blame on to the  70m anchors..   heck i went back to the gunks after 20years and there are all these new bolted anchors. no one bothered to tell me that they are set for 70m.   We had no problem not killing ourselfs.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: OldEric on April 01, 2011, 10:58:26 am
Don't bite.  Let the poor horsey rest.  Even if it is April Fools and the prankster has a grand total of 1 post
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: The other tomcat on April 01, 2011, 11:01:40 am
Strandman is John Strand,and he is pretty well known both at this site,and around North Conway.He has a considerable number of difficult (5.12) ascents to his credit,when bolted ,done on lead,and some have R if not X ratings.He's not known for candy coating his opinions.

So in here it's quite a stretch to say he's hiding behind a name.

I was sorry to hear of Rich's accident. We all know a simple knot would have prevented it,and that that knot can be done in such a way as to not interfere with getting the curls out as you climb or lower. I'd absolutely hate to see plaques,or rules for anchor locations,or warnings for them, and I suspect Rich would too.Once you start warning people about the rappels,ropes will have to carry a similar warning of their length.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: tinker on April 01, 2011, 11:12:13 am
So in closing ;)  Close the system everytime, everywhere.  Be aware, and do not beat dead horses!
I Tried :-\
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: rightcross on April 01, 2011, 01:37:25 pm
don't know any 70 m bolted rapps in the gunks can you tell me where.  Oldcrustyeric i have 2 post now!  figures strand used bolts!  most weenies do!
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: The other tomcat on April 01, 2011, 01:50:49 pm
I'm so confused. Wasn't Rich lowering off bolts on a sport climb when he got dropped? You are a trad climber who climbs at a gym with a cliff inside for seventeen years? And you keep specific hours there but are dissing people who lead bolt 12R outside?

Maybe you can clear this up for me. Plain english is good,I'm not an intellectual.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DGoguen on April 01, 2011, 01:58:16 pm
Ah yes, the return of the mysterious pipe manufacturer from the midwest. The one who shall not be mentioned. :'(
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DGoguen on April 01, 2011, 02:16:50 pm
spout off shit like you have been on this thread and see how many teeth you leave with.
John O

Jokes on you, John has no teeeth left.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: rightcross on April 01, 2011, 03:36:19 pm
Tom S,

yes Rich was lowering off a bolted climb but if he did the FA you know darn well, there would be no bolts.  your point is?

as far as the climbing gym.  It's a benefit held at the gym to help Rich out. it would be great for you to show up.  i do not go there but i will be there on April 5 to show support.  

Not dissing 12r leading, dissing putting bolts in so i would think its really not 12 r, maybe sections of 5.7r.  understand, capice, Comprende, c'est compris, sumjhe...
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: The other tomcat on April 01, 2011, 04:18:32 pm
From 3rd edition,Rock Climbs in the White Mountains,by Ed Webster.

Autoclave 5.12R -You might want to toprope this route first,unless you are a highly skilled doctor of face climbing-with a fully paid up life insurance policy.
1. Climb Clean Sweep to the third bolt,then move up and right on extremely thin moves (5.12C R ), to a tiny ledge and and the top. 5.12C R

After Tom Callahan and John Stand toproped the route in July, 1988, John Strand led the route in November 1988.


I'm aware Rich doesn't place bolts on Fa's in the Gunks, neither does anyone else. If you've climbed anywhere much,you'd be aware few places are so suited to boltless climbing. The route listed above is just one Stand has to his credit,many on remote cliffs,including the famous "Jim Dunn is consumed by black flies".

Other than that, no I don't even begin to comprehend your reference to 5.7R.  And my point is your friend Rich wouldn't be lowering off a sport climb at City of Rocks unless someone bolted it first, so like the rest of your drivel it seems asinine to diss sport climbing or bolts on this thread,much more so someone who had the sack to place his on lead. Capice?
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: rightcross on April 01, 2011, 04:35:14 pm
look tomtom john Strand came off as an arrogant prick!  i don't know why maybe Rich walked up to one of strand's Top Rope projects and lead it onsight idk.  Not only did Rich not place bolts in Gunks, he didn't place any in the Eastern Sierras, Wind rivers, North Cascades, Big Ben, Heuco, etc..

Me personally I don't like bolts or spurt climbing you have at it though.  but go ahead make another reply saying you can't comprehend.  So you can win. out of here.  btw NH ratings are soft
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DWT on April 01, 2011, 05:33:16 pm
Wow! Rightcross sounds like a real tough guy.  I'm in awe. :-*
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DLottmann on April 01, 2011, 05:47:36 pm
Obvious troll is obvious...
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: The other tomcat on April 01, 2011, 05:49:22 pm
Last time I saw Rich,he had led Heather. That one is 12b,and listed as well protected,he seemed pretty psyched about it. I don't think anyone would argue that either Rich or John don't have many fine,bold ascents to their credit,I know I wouldn't.I also doubt very much Rich walked up and sent any of Strand's bolder climbs. You have the comprehension problem dood,they are not topropes.

Bolting is prohibited at the Gunks, and no one takes a kit to the Winds.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: sneoh on April 01, 2011, 06:03:51 pm
Obvious troll is obvious...
I'm with DMan and Eric on this one.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DWT on April 01, 2011, 06:18:09 pm
Can anyone fill me in on the Br---ol---e backstory? ???  Whats the deal?  Seems to come up once every two months or so.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: M_Sprague on April 01, 2011, 06:30:12 pm
Obvious troll is obvious...

What an unfortunate psychological state, what ever it is.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DGoguen on April 01, 2011, 06:53:22 pm
Can anyone fill me in on the Br---ol---e backstory? ???  Whats the deal?  Seems to come up once every two months or so.

  :-X Nooooo... His name shall not be said aloud for he brings darkness to all humanity, fear into the hearts of rational men, for the love of God save yourself. :'(
Hail Mary full of gra......
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: DWT on April 01, 2011, 06:58:31 pm
 ??? :)
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: rightcross on April 01, 2011, 07:19:03 pm

After Tom Callahan and John Stand toproped the route in July, 1988, John Strand led the route in November 1988.


sorry no comprehension problem.  keep thinking so if it makes you feel better because you have nothing else to come back with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6TUhx2wX0M
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Jeff on April 02, 2011, 07:35:55 am
We all know who John Strand is. Does anyone know "rightcross" or does he always hide behind a pseudonym? BTW, I've known and respected Rich Romano for over 30 years. His ascents of hard scary sh*t in the Gunks (often in adidas or the like), especially at Millbrook, have left me in awe, as have many of his ascents across the breadth of North America. That doesn't remove the fact that in the case of his accident, several lamentable errors of judgement were made, leaving him and Miriam with great emotional and physical trauma. Name calling and blame passing won't change either of those situations. I apologize to the previously damaged horse, but the personal attacks and vitriol expressed anonymously sicken me.   Jeff Lea
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: little lil on April 02, 2011, 01:14:39 pm
People Ė get your act together.

I would assume that Myriam knew that publishing her inner monologue would cause some waves and I think it is good so b/c she touched ppl one way or the other.

However, whatís going on now on this forum is at best described as ridiculous (yup, I know, I am putting a target on my chest).  I think the only two ppl who are entitled to having this particular fight are Myriam and Strand.  I hope that Myriam knows better than caring about all the crap that is said on an online forum. 

I wish Myriam and Rich all the best and hope we could all learn from this accident and put the horse to rest.
Title: Re: Climber lowered off end of rope
Post by: Admin Al on April 02, 2011, 06:59:16 pm
putting the lock on this one folks...