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General => Beginners Area => Topic started by: lucky luke on June 06, 2011, 10:07:17 AM

Title: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: lucky luke on June 06, 2011, 10:07:17 AM
I don't have a good traduction for that two term, so I write it in french. One means that when you climb, you feel your body as it move in space. You have a feeling of how your body move and when you are in equilibrum or not. When you see a photo, you instinctively contract those muscles which was in action in the move. It is what they call informationnel.

The other is when your mind is stronger than the feeling of your body. You dominate the pain and your body must follow the decision of your mind or it will be punish. You jam and, even if it is painfull, you move over and push your body to the maximum that it can sustain.

I am informationnel, but I never open my hand if I had the feeling that falling is worse than going to the top. So, I had both state of mind, but at different level. When you climb, are you more informationnel or instrumental.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: strandman on June 06, 2011, 08:50:51 PM
the translation may be lost but I remember the great Edlinger saying he "felt" the moves  ??
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: little lil on June 06, 2011, 10:08:19 PM
For me, it depends on the climb.  if it's a climb i'm comfy and it all feels very natural - the def. informational
When I push the grades and get outside of my comfort zone, then I need my head to take over and do stuff to my body that it's gonna hate me for later - instrumental

There's this really nice phrase in German that translates to something like:  Your body can only go where your mind went first.  There's prob a better way to put it in English, but you get the idea.  That's how it is for me on climbs that are at my limit.  If I can't see myself doing the climb / move, then I can as well as go home and do some yoga instead.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: sneoh on June 06, 2011, 10:14:11 PM
For me, it depends on the climb.  if it's a climb i'm comfy and it all feels very natural - the def. informational
When I push the grades and get outside of my comfort zone, then I need my head to take over and do stuff to my body that it's gonna hate me for later - instrumental
+1.

Edlinger exudes gracefulness.  
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: lucky luke on June 06, 2011, 10:47:22 PM
the translation may be lost but I remember the great Edlinger saying he "felt" the moves  ??
yes, it is hard to speak in english.

 edlinger is definitely informationnal. He is a sport climber, but some trad climber are also informationnal.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: M_Sprague on July 28, 2011, 07:28:46 PM
Edlinger is the guy who first inspired me to climb, when I saw a film of him bouldering at fontainebleau. I had just hiked as a kid before that. Then I met Eroc Boyd who took me to Lincoln Woods and I met Whitey. Whitey wasn't quite Edlinger, but he is a character and talks funny.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: sneoh on July 28, 2011, 08:00:17 PM
Edlinger is the guy who first inspired me to climb, when I saw a film of him bouldering at fontainebleau. I had just hiked as a kid before that. Then I met Eroc Boyd who took me to Lincoln Woods and I met Whitey. Whitey wasn't quite Edlinger, but he is a character and talks funny.
Anything about Edlinger at Font is just plain amazing.  
Twenty five years on and Whitey STILL talks funny and is a character through and through. That will NEVER change.:)
Let's all get together for Farley in Oct and Nov, Mark.  Hopefully we can get Ward out too, baby notwithstanding.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: smartpig on July 28, 2011, 08:33:59 PM
My encounter with Enlinger was while I was doing Country Club Crack on Castle Rock, Boulder Canyon about 1985.  He was projecting some 5.13 and I looked down observing him pissing in the river and smoking a cigarette! Not exactly floating it! 
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: smartpig on July 28, 2011, 08:37:36 PM
He must have been on Tourist Extravagance 5.12d just to the right of CCC.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: M_Sprague on July 28, 2011, 09:36:36 PM
Frenchies!...oops, can't say that. Champoing is here  ;D
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: Dave on July 28, 2011, 10:19:19 PM
 
Twenty five years on and Whitey STILL talks funny and is a character through and true. That will NEVER change.:)
Let's all get together for Farley in Oct and Nov, Mark.  Hopefully we can get Ward out too, baby notwithstanding.

Whitey will NEVER change and that's a great thing! ;D When I first started climbing I climbed alot with him in Conn. and he still climbs hard along with talking funny. ::) He sure inspired me to push myself and climb hard.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: lucky luke on August 10, 2011, 11:22:26 AM
Frenchies!...oops, can't say that. Champoing is here  ;D

I am from Quebec, not france!!! Not very better as I know the reputation of quebec people at rumney. But I do my best.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: Admin Al on August 10, 2011, 01:05:51 PM
guys - ya know champoing really has a thick skin to take all the abuse you guys lay on him & not (apparently) get pissed off! [wry grin]
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: little lil on August 10, 2011, 02:32:38 PM
I totally agree.  He's never out of line, nor insulting, watches his language and I think really means well.
I think it's great that Champoing makes an effort to put what most of us would sum up by "gut feeling" into actual words so that folks get a chance to follow his line of thinking and decision making. (Tho, my attention span is short and I tend to get lost.)
Rock on Champ!
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: M_Sprague on August 10, 2011, 04:25:30 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__SXJM2y4kSk/TO6ssS3xGcI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/C7myuIMfGxw/s640/sd_coneheads_02_large.jpg)

We are from Quebec !!!
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: lucky luke on August 10, 2011, 06:48:07 PM
guys - ya know champoing really has a thick skin to take all the abuse you guys lay on him & not (apparently) get pissed off! [wry grin]
I have some support from climber that I respect, mostly trad climber at a level that they want some route more sustain to onsight or climber who first ascent 5.8 route and over years ago. As many trad climber want to climb to relax from work and competition, most of them don't write on forum. So, beginer have the impression that trad climbing is not fun.

I think that sport climber like to insult other when they are in a competition mood (look the post of msprague, it is irrespectfull). they want to be good and the only reference they had is a number and as many essay as it is necessary to climb. For others, I am like a competitor for some one who gave courses or have a friend who own a gym.  They want all the clients to use his crag/gym and trad climbing outside the boundary of sport wall is not good for there business. They also going to insult me because I don't climb in a gym..

But the only think I want is more safety...and to climb with people safe. Althought some one who climb on bolt can think that I am unsafe to run out 30 meter of rope in a pitch. I just can focus on the difference between the two ethic and hope that teacher, authority and other decision level will understand that trad climbing is a good activity   
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: M_Sprague on August 10, 2011, 07:14:22 PM
Pardon, champ. I never meant to be disrespectful or mean to you in any way. Any digs were meant in a playful ironic way, as I would with other friends. Perhaps something was lost in translation or simply because it was typed and not said in person with the usual body language indicating it was a joke. I think if you go back you will see that I have in fact usually been supportive of your analyses, though I don't always agree, or sometimes think it is a bit too much, and I have often thought a few people's responses to you  were mean spirited and uncalled for.

I am not sure which post (s) exactly you found insulting, but the coneheads picture was just a result of remembering a quote from them that they were "from France", rather than whatever planet they were from, that I found amusing in the context. If you think about it, they were all in lab coats.
 My earlier post about Frenchies was ironic and actually making fun of people's stereotypes. I thought the emoticon would give a clue to that..

Again, apologies if I mistakenly insulted you.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: sneoh on August 10, 2011, 07:36:19 PM
For others, I am like a competitor for some one who gave courses or have a friend who own a gym.  They want all the clients to use his crag/gym and trad climbing outside the boundary of sport wall is not good for there business. They also going to insult me because I don't climb in a gym..
I will let guides who frequent this forum answer as to whether you are a competitor or not.
I know gym owners (but I myself have no financial interest in any gym) and I know that 10 of you and 10 of mark sprague combined will unlikely to have a significant impact on the bottom line of sub-urban gyms.  Do you know the main source of urban and sub-urban gyms' profits?  

And I like to know on which route you had a 100-foot runout on and why you could not or chose not to place gear in that 100 feet.  You are always talking about fall factor, a 100-foot runout is at risk of, at a minimum, a fall factor of 1.0 (assuming you do not deck), but quite likely higher.

I can say with confidence that there is no conspiracy on this forum against you.  Unfair ribbing, yes.  Somewhat distasteful pics and comments, yes.  But there is no little green men from Mars or a National Security Agency plot here.

Just relax.  Write less and climb more.  Please.  :)
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: lucky luke on August 10, 2011, 08:15:15 PM
[I can say with confidence that there is no conspiracy on this forum against you.  Unfair ribbing, yes.  Somewhat distasteful pics and comments, yes.  But there is no little green men from Mars or a National Security Agency plot here.
Little green men from Mars... isn't it what the image of the post of m_sprague gave. In Quebec, we have the just for laught festival. I know that jokes can be use to ridiculise some people. It is not a joke with a good sense of humour. The idea is: " if you think like that person, you are going to look like that". So, the joke is not to laught at someone who write badly a word like hole for hold and use a second definition of hole to make a joke. The joke is use for an other reason. In the context...as some people look at my opinion and gave me some credibility...the joke is use to humiliate me.

Neverthless, my goal is to have more safety and I accept the appologies of M-sprague. So, I climbed in quebec a route name le pillier in the parc des hautes-georges (same as la pomme d'or). After three pitches, I face climb with a good pro at the begining and loose rock after. Rapelling from there was not easy so, we have to go over. The pitch was on very bad rock and none of my protection could be use. I was under my level and I had a great experience of that kind of rock at that time. I think that it was as dangerous to rap than to go to the top. I climbed on that bad rock to a death end. I had to down climbed 10 or 15 meters to finaly found a route on the right where I can place a pro and good hole. It was dangerous, I admit, but probably the safer choice. Onsighting a route can be like that. The run out in pitch 5 of down east look hard too. It is trad. if you decide to go take a look, as bouchard said some where, you have to know the consequence and deal with it. To be brave you have to know the danger and use your technique to avoid it. Other way it is inconsciousness. It is why I said that some times, sport climber have less experience of those critical moment and they can climb harder for that reason.     
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: sneoh on August 10, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
But the only think I want is more safety...and to climb with people safe. Althought some one who climb on bolt can think that I am unsafe to run out 30 meter of rope in a pitch.   
So, do you still think, in this instance, running it out 100 feet on bad rock with your belayer at a questionable anchor (I infer this because you wrote the risk is the same climbing bad rock as rapping from the anchor) is not unsafe?  :)
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: lucky luke on August 10, 2011, 11:01:07 PM
So, do you still think, in this instance, running it out 100 feet on bad rock with your belayer at a questionable anchor (I infer this because you wrote the risk is the same climbing bad rock as rapping from the anchor) is not unsafe?  :)
For me, climbing fugue or falling spiration at canon is safe. For a lot of you, it is unsafe. What make the difference? In les hautes-georges, my belay was good, but the route was hard to rap. I thought that it will be safer to run it out. When I enter the death end, it was not really a death end. I had to take a decision to climb down or to try a hard move and place my party in danger. I took the best decision at that time.

For me, a 5.11 climber on sport trying the route I did in hautes-georges it is dangerous because sport climber don't have all the skill to lessons to the sound of the rock, see the fracture line and taste gradually a hold (I don't say that they are not good or that trad is better, the skill is different). I use one hold in cran des erables (other cliff at hautes-georges) and I heard the rock broking under the pressure. I release it and still be in balance. In a 5.11 moves, the equilibrum is way different than in a 5.7 moves where you can "save your life" by balancing your weight on a second hold. I climbed 5.10 on that kind of rock. I never take chances. They call it calculate risk and I can do a mistake. As for formula one car driving, climbing is dangerous. If you want to be totaly safe: don't climb. I accept to broke a leg or arm in a fall. 

As I climbed a lot of route of lower grade in a variety of situation...I have learn the skill to be able to decide when I could try a run out or not. In general, if I try a run out it is because I evaluate the consequences and I know how I wish to fall. When Arsenault did mordor wall second pitch...he placed one bolt, was he unsafe? Or did he have the skill to do it? trad skill
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: lucky luke on August 10, 2011, 11:20:00 PM
So, do you still think, in this instance, running it out 100 feet on bad rock with your belayer at a questionable anchor (I infer this because you wrote the risk is the same climbing bad rock as rapping from the anchor) is not unsafe?  :)

We can also talk about sliding board, wedge, slab direct at whitehorse.

Note that I don't say that you must climb a route like the one I did in les hautes-george , but they are climbable when you are ready to do it. In canon, you must pay me a lot to climb british where coming again...even if the chimney is a gem, so much fun. You face the side of the road, your back is on the mountain side. So you see Lafayette mountain as you climb. At the top you have to turn in the direction where there is no wall to take two undercling in a row and a kind of shake flake to a bad belay. To make the belay I use the rope and two or three belay tight togheter. that was unsafe. 
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: sneoh on August 10, 2011, 11:33:03 PM
Thanks for the details, Champ.  People can now judge for themselves.

I like to point out that below is the kind of generalization some people take issue with.  A lot of climbers whom you may regard as sport climbers do know a thing or two about bad rock.  I do not have an issue with what you wrote because I know what you really mean.
Just friendly advice for your future reference.
For me, a 5.11 climber on sport trying the route I did in hautes-georges it is dangerous because sport climber don't have all the skill to listen to the sound of the rock, see the fracture line and taste gradually a hold


Climb on and hope you find less bad rock.
Title: Re: informationnel or obeissance instrumental
Post by: lucky luke on August 11, 2011, 09:19:20 AM
Thanks for the details, Champ.  People can now judge for themselves.
 A lot of climbers whom you may regard as sport climbers do know a thing or two about bad rock.  I do not have an issue with what you wrote because I know what you really mean.
I don't judge any body. I gave the choice between sport and trad. I think that a father with two child have enought responability to not risk his life as a trad climber. In that way, he most climb sport.

I am not on the Dman opinion too. Because he found unsafe some thing, every body most find it unsafe. accident happen and bolt don't lower the number of crazy climber. To climb trad, you have to use some skill that you don't have in some other sport. Climbing trad is not just the number of a cotation, it is to be able to take decision in a variable environment, when you don't know all the variable. Trad is more like climbing safe every where, than making a hard move after many repetition. We climb because the mountain is there

In saying that, I know that some climber don't like to climb 6 pitches to climb one movement of 5.10. They prefer to climb many movement of 5.10, 5.11 in a row. Those trad climber will use bolt. Verdon (france), with the bolt space by 15 feet (30 feet fall) is one of these place. Take it or leave it is a dynamic move at the end of a 5 meters run out. I generalize the notion of sport climber for the beginer and those who learn sport and climb trad without knowing the deep difference.