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General => Rock Climbing: Sport => Topic started by: OldEric on September 12, 2011, 10:32:03 am

Title: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: OldEric on September 12, 2011, 10:32:03 am
Does anyone know any details about this?
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: KaiT on September 12, 2011, 11:43:51 am
I don't have details and was about to ask the same.

What surprised me was the level on response that this accident got from the authorities. Why was there a need for the fire department to be there and many many volunteers. wouldn't one ambulance have been enough?

Kai
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 12, 2011, 05:45:29 pm
It takes at least six people to carry a litter from a spot like vader to the road so yes is normal for the fire dept rescue truck to be on scene for  a climbing accident. Once the real rescue folks show up and kick the competent climbers off the rescue they need additional people on scene to handle the heart attacks and sprained ankles of the fat out of shape medics and fire people.
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: sneoh on September 12, 2011, 07:08:41 pm
.... they need additional people on scene to handle the heart attacks and sprained ankles of the fat out of shape medics and fire people.
Not all that far from the truth, judging from what happened during The Parking Lot Wall rescue last year. 

The last two rescues I was a part of (no, I do not like being a part of any rescue), I have observed that the authorities have a tendency to 'under utilize' climbers and our familiarity with climbers' trails and trail conditions.  I think it is a communication and training issue and nothing malicious. 
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: sarahw on September 12, 2011, 07:36:43 pm
Two of my friends helped with the rescue.  Here is what they said:

The woman fell/tumbled from the gully that is between Upper Darth Vader and Jimmy Cliff.  Apparently she was conscious and talking during the rescue, so my friends thought she was going to be okay, though they did not know what her injuries were.

Teams of 6 rotated through, each team carrying the litter for 300 feet or so while the other groups rested.  During the steepest parts of the trail, the rescuers lined up and passed the litter down the trail instead of carrying it.  During at least some of the time the litter/victim were also belayed with a rope, so that she could not be dropped.

They were impressed with the response and thought that the authorities did a great job organizing the climbers and directing the rescue.



Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: sneoh on September 12, 2011, 08:10:35 pm
They were impressed with the response and thought that the authorities did a great job organizing the climbers and directing the rescue.
Good news. it is nice to heat stuff like this to dispel any misgiving that I or others may have.

We wish the victim well.  I am not aware of a direct established trail from UDV to Jimmy.  Is there one?  I typically backtrack from UDV to either Bonsai or LDV to reach Waimea or Jimmy.
Or, did she fall descending from Waimea/Jimmy towards Lower Darth?  If memory serves, there is a small fork in the steep trail down, at about the same level as UDV.  Going left leads one to a very eroded section which hugs the rock.  No one ought to use this since it resembles a small gully.  We hang a quick right at this fork and descend a number of steep rock steps which may not be so obvious among the vegetation.
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: KaiT on September 12, 2011, 09:22:00 pm
Thanks for the update and I'm glad to hear that the woman should be ok.

I wasn't aware of the number of people involved in a rescue b/c of the litter. Rock climbers might be a resource that could be used, but I wonder if there are liability issues with that. E.g. what if one of the "untrained" personal drops the litter and causes more injury.

Kai
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: sarahw on September 12, 2011, 09:47:13 pm
If you continue uphill, keeping UDV on your left, you will come to a cleft in the cliff band.  If you scramble up this gully you come to Jimmy cliff, I think pretty much directly below the Drilling for Dollars area.  It is definitely not a trail, but I think people do use it sometimes.  I have used it as a short cut before, and found it a bit sketchy.  It is probably class 3 scrambling, but would be difficult if it is mossy and wet.   I believe this is where they were when she fell.
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: sneoh on September 12, 2011, 10:10:13 pm
Thank you, Sarah for the clarifications.  I almost always stick to established trails.  The few times I have deviated I have found the going to be taxing and insecure.  With all the recent rain, it is not hard to imagine someone slipping off moss-covered rock and going for a good tumble.
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 13, 2011, 06:12:14 am
Sorry if my response seemed a bit crass. just responding to my last experience with a rescue. We got the victem down some serious 4th class terrain in good time with everyone safe and moveing well.  When the real rescue folks showed up they were huffing and puffing so bsad i thought they would drop dead right on the spot. then the fire chief guy who was a real rolly poly 5x5 started barking orders and it took them annother hour to get the litter 200ft of easy 1st class trail to the parking lot ::)
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: M_Sprague on September 13, 2011, 09:08:05 am
I don't think you were crass, Tradman. I appreciate that they are helping, many times as volunteers, but their horrible general fitness and lack of practical sense in the mountains is really a problem. I don't know how it can be helped except for the climbing organizations to have regular training days with them.  By getting them to hike the trails regularly and work with climbers, it would help get them in shape and trust in the available skills. If I ever get hurt, unless I am totally messed up with spinal injuries (finish me off with a rock in that case), I hope my fellow climbers can get me out before the fat squad shows up. I have always said, if I get hurt and lost in the mountains, I want Shimberg to be the one looking for me
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: Maine_Guy on September 13, 2011, 12:43:09 pm
I arrived at this accident shortly after it happened.  I mostly just stayed out of the way. 

Was curious if anyone had an update to the girl's condition after the hospital visit? 

It is a bit crass to highlight the "huffing" of the medical responders.  To my knowledge, most of these guys are volunteers.  They mentioned this was one of the "farthest up" rescues they had ever performed and they (fortunately) don't get many.  They did a great job.  The random climbers that showed up to help were key to a successful extraction - carrying responders gear up to the scene - setting up a belay down the steep section for the litter - assisting with the carry - carrying equipment out.  Rumney is a good place to have an accident - if there is such a thing.  Lots of help.

I would say they (the responders) might need more training in high angle rescue... you can't expect responders to have climbing knowledge.  These guys did well, but did not seem familiar with high-angle rescue techniques.
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: OldEric on September 13, 2011, 01:16:27 pm
The number of rescues is surely a drain on the resources of a small town like Rumney regardless of whether the majority of the personal are volunteer or not.  To foster good will it typically is standard procedure for the rescued parties to make a donation to whatever organizations/groups are involved.  Formalizing that a bit it might be a good practice for the RCA to make a donation that perhaps was earmarked for training (although earmarking it for  gym memberships for the huffers and puffers might be more beneficial -  :D).
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: steve weitzler on September 13, 2011, 01:24:34 pm
I think now is the time to build that paved trail to Darth Vader and eliminate any trees that might fall on the approach. We can then build stone stairs up the gully the victim fell from.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: Bill on September 13, 2011, 10:46:18 pm
Good positive suggestion by Eric.  Is there still a functional RCA to which I can make a donation so they can pass something along to the Town?  Don't climb much there anymore but certainly enjoyed and benefited from the efforts of many parties who made such a great place work so well, including the Town.  Was pretty consistent at putting some bills in Shim's jar on the counter at the Rock Barn on most trips up there and I would like to see some money go to the Town as well.

Regarding the criticism of the official responsers, unless you are a volunteer with your local rescue squad, I would suggest the price of your words is at least a $10 donation to RCA to be passed along to the Town or a $10 donation to NH Mountain Rescue (http://www.mountainrescueservice.org/donations.htm).  Jake that goes double for you!

Bill
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: JakeDatc on September 13, 2011, 10:59:44 pm
Nevermind.  

edit:  didn't realize that was you Bill.  figured it was one of my "friends" from up north again. 
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: Bill on September 13, 2011, 11:38:33 pm
Geez Jake.  I'm sorry.  It was only tongue-in-cheek.  Or are you pissed at me for not bagging work and heading down to the Gunks with you last night?  Hope that's it. You know I thoroughly enjoy your company.  Bill
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: sneoh on September 14, 2011, 02:16:58 pm
I do not remember the circumstance but I heard from one of the Rumney EMT early last year that they could really use some slings and biners to go with the litter that the FD has.  So last summer I dopped some old slings and biners that I no longer use off at the Fire Station for this purpose.  Hopefully they have been put to good use since. 
The point is I think we should help each other by finding out what they need and how they might be able to respond better to an emergency call.  I like the idea of familiarizing them with all the upper and less visited crags.  Down at Red River, the RRGCC produced fairly detailed maps of the crags and major trails in the PMRP to distrihute to climbers and the emergency services.  I believe these maps have already been put to good use in a number of rescues.

I believe most members of the Rumney EM Svc and Fire are volunteers.  True locals will know for sure.
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: jammer on September 21, 2011, 12:35:39 am
Good positive suggestion by Eric.  Is there still a functional RCA to which I can make a donation so they can pass something along to the Town?  Don't climb much there anymore but certainly enjoyed and benefited from the efforts of many parties who made such a great place work so well, including the Town.  Was pretty consistent at putting some bills in Shim's jar on the counter at the Rock Barn on most trips up there and I would like to see some money go to the Town as well.

Regarding the criticism of the official responsers, unless you are a volunteer with your local rescue squad, I would suggest the price of your words is at least a $10 donation to RCA to be passed along to the Town or a $10 donation to NH Mountain Rescue (http://www.mountainrescueservice.org/donations.htm).  Jake that goes double for you!

Bill
Yes, Bill.  The RCA is still functioning and is trying to pull itself back together again.  Check out Rumney-upkeep group in Google ... http://groups.google.com/group/rumney-upkeep?hl=en&lnk=
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: sneoh on October 11, 2012, 08:04:44 pm
FYI, This group is by invitation only -
http://groups.google.com/group/rumney-upkeep?hl=en&lnk=
I just asked to become a member.  We will see if that happens.

Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: JakeDatc on October 11, 2012, 08:52:59 pm
FYI, This group is by invitation only -
http://groups.google.com/group/rumney-upkeep?hl=en&lnk=
I just asked to become a member.  We will see if that happens.



Soon  you have to be  this tall to get in... sorry man..   
___





____   

;)     
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: sneoh on October 11, 2012, 09:02:55 pm
I knew it, Jake!  Thanks, buddy :)
Hope you have been enjoying the low humidity and dry rock!  Stellar.
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: danf on October 12, 2012, 10:48:00 pm
I realize this was an old thread, but I'll throw this out there for some knowledge for you guys.  The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) has set forth standards regarding rope rescues along with everything else fire-related.  Those standards are ones that all fire departments (both paid and volly) are supposed to abide by.  Unless it's changed in the last few years (which I don't believe it has), the standard dealing with rope rescues dictated that any and all rope, harnesses and other associated gear that is used in any rescue must be NEW and unused.  Which means that they are supposed to pull out new gear each time and not re-use gear from the last rescue.  Once gear is used in a rescue, by the NFPA, it can be used for training purposes but no longer is it supposed to be used for an actual rescue.

Granted, a simple belay of a litter as it's being passed hand-to-hand down a trail isn't exactly high-angle, but even that requires a couple hundred dollars in gear.  Imagine a true high-angle rescue (getting climbers down from the middle of a multi-pitch route) and all of the gear needed for that and the cost for any small fire department can be crippling.

So, yes, it would be a good idea to get familiar with the locals there and anywhere else that you might climb on a regular basis.  Chances are, they are all grossly under-equipped and lacking in training of even basic stuff.  Hell, on my old department back home I doubt there were more than a handful of people out of the 40-50 on the roster that could tie a bowline, and even fewer that could tie a figure 8 as well.....
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: DLottmann on October 13, 2012, 03:40:58 pm
That's a completely unreasonable standard and is created either from a lack of understanding gear durability/longevity or a need to spend more tax payers money so your budget doesn't get cut the following year... Luckily most dedicated high-angle rescue organizations, YOSAR, MRS, even NPS, don't abide by those standards...

As has been mentioned, firemen are not always prepared physically and technically for anything but simple carry outs, and when ever possible local mountain rescue folks (climbers) are hopefully available to get the litter to the road...
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: danf on October 14, 2012, 10:30:47 pm
David, I can't argue the unreasonability of the the standard with today's equipment.  It may have changed in the last few years, but I doubt it has.  The NFPA does change standards from time to time, but high-angle rescue scenarios are few and far between in the overall scope of what the average fire department does so it is one of those standards that doesn't get a lot of attention.  Understand though that, that particular standard has been in place for well over 10 years (since I was last on a department and was looking at it), and likely has been in place for 20-30 years or more.  When the standard was written, it may not have been very unreasonable given the materials used in the equipment and ropes at the time.

My point though, if it wasn't clear enough, was that getting to know the departments in the area (Rumney, Conway, etc) is not a bad idea- especially if a training opportunity can be had prior to the next time a rescue is needed.  Standards aside, most departments don't have much equipment for a higher-angle rescue other than a litter.  When I left the department back home 11 years ago, the only rope that was carried on the rescue truck at the time was an ancient bag of laid "Goldline"....
Title: Re: Accident at Vader (Rumney) on Sunday afternoon (9/11)
Post by: rose on October 17, 2012, 12:12:14 pm
All,

We have a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/rumneyclimbersassociation

and a new website: www.climbrumney.com

Bill, here is the direct link for donations:  http://www.climbrumney.com/support-us/make-a-donation/

I hope the victim is ok.  Any more updates?

Rose

FYI, This group is by invitation only -
http://groups.google.com/group/rumney-upkeep?hl=en&lnk=
I just asked to become a member.  We will see if that happens.