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General => Climbing NOT (Bitch & moan, Politics) => Topic started by: Admin Al on April 23, 2012, 10:22:10 am

Title: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: Admin Al on April 23, 2012, 10:22:10 am
good article in today's Conway Sun by Erik Eisle:

 http://www.conwaydailysun.com/index.php/newsx/local-news/89430-rescuebill-041312

then Jim Ewing pointed out this page on the NHF&G site:

 http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Law_Enforcement/sar_funding_FAQs.html

it's a real conundrum...
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: DGoguen on April 23, 2012, 10:51:04 am
I saw that the other day in the paper. That's a bit much.
Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to perish before calling the AMC Highland center for directions but she did pretty well overall.

What would happen if you had a minor climbing accident while climbing on Mt Washington, were really capable of, and committed to a self rescue and someone else calls it in. They scoop you and fine you $7000.

They contend that she was negligent because of the weather forecast. The rescuers are even calling it a desperate attempt to recoup cash.
I gave Mechanicalchris crap for complaining about camping fees the other day but this fee would kill you. How would you even afford to fight that.

The "Frequently Asked Questions" page that Jim points out is particularly scary. Take a look at the "What groups receive Search and Rescue services" tab.
Climbers, although lumped with hikers, appears first at 56%. I wonder what the number is if you split it up?
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: The other tomcat on April 23, 2012, 11:08:40 am
If I read Eric's article correctly, Fish and Game didn't actually find her, Mountain Rescue did, and several members who were there thought the price a bit steep. Amusingly the F&G have put a 7000.00 price tag on it, but told the Conway Sun it could take sixty days to explain how they came up with that number.

In the end this will cause a myriad set of problems. People will delay calling for help when they should, and there will certainly be issues that arise when someone calls for a family member to be rescued, who is in fact, just overdue.

I can't wait to see the price breakdown....lol.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: DLottmann on April 23, 2012, 11:11:27 am
She should not have been charged, however she did not have a map or compass with her.

Two basic items could have prevented this rescue from being needed. Itís a shame there is no mention of that anywhere in the discussion.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: M_Sprague on April 23, 2012, 06:27:41 pm
I try to avoid those situations, but if I really needed help and could make a phone call, I would call friends in the area who where up for the task first. Hopefully they wouldn't be in the Andes or passed out. Shimmie, come and get meee! I'm fucked up and my femur is sticking out of my chest. Come finish me off with a rock. I would be pissed if somebody ordered a search and rescue that I specifically asked not to have, and then got billed for it.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: apbt1976 on April 23, 2012, 06:50:15 pm
I try to avoid those situations, but if I really needed help and could make a phone call, I would call friends in the area who where up for the task first. Hopefully they wouldn't be in the Andes or passed out. Shimmie, come and get meee! I'm fucked up and my femur is sticking out of my chest. Come finish me off with a rock. I would be pissed if somebody ordered a search and rescue that I specifically asked not to have, and then got billed for it.

I think about this all the fucking time. With all the fucktards in this world i figure this has to happen more one would think. I know i don't have 7G and if someone placed the call for me and i did not ask for it i would be pissed! I think about this on the super highway up Washington heading into Huntington quite often.

I get strange looks running back and forth into and outa Huntington because i run it in sneakers, micro spikes and a 30L pack. I could easily see some of the more traditional hikers and their long list of 20 billion essentials or the mom and pop 2-3 times a season types hikers making one of those calls real quick because i had sprained a ankle or something.

On the other hand this lady made the call to the wrong dam person if she was worried about a bill. I would never had called them first but a friend or family member as it is a given decisions may be made for you real quick if you call the wrong person. I do agree it is big problem sooner than later this will discourage many from distinguishing when it is and is not time to make that all important call.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: DGoguen on April 23, 2012, 07:14:44 pm
Crazy T may remember this, but in the late eighties / early ninetys, we were climbing at Dickey and I was moaning so bad on a hard slab route that a hiker on the Welch-Dickey trail above, but couldn't see me below, ran and called for a rescue. The fireman came and everything with their rubber boots and coats. They threatened us pretty good until Jay who was quite hairy and scary at the time set them straight. Still funny now.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: apbt1976 on April 23, 2012, 07:17:53 pm
Crazy T may remember this, but in the mid eighties, we were climbing at Dickey and I was moaning so bad on a hard slab route that a hiker on the Welch-Dickey trail above, but couldn't see me below, ran and called for a rescue. The fireman came and everything with their rubber boots and coats. They threatened us pretty good until Jay who was quite hairy and scary at the time set them straight. Still funny now.

That is exactly what i imagine every time i am in a area with non climbers and i am climbing. Only takes a split second to decide one way or the other if a person needs help or not. As much as i say this there is the flip side of the coin when you would be happy someone made the call i suppose?

Funny story non the less and my biggest fear as these days just watch the news and what once was common place you now be arrested or fined  for.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: DWT on April 23, 2012, 07:28:33 pm
  12 guys, 12 hours, at night(OT), trucks, uniforms, equipment, and insurance.  $7471.00  That's nothing!  It's $50 per hour per man and $271.00 for gas.  Just Sayin'

Disclaimer:  I don't agree with the charge,  but the amount AIN'T steep.  Try gettin' a plumber at night for fifty an hour ::)
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: The other tomcat on April 23, 2012, 10:18:19 pm
Or twelve plumbers that don't fix the leak....
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: apbt1976 on April 23, 2012, 10:26:48 pm
  12 guys, 12 hours, at night(OT), trucks, uniforms, equipment, and insurance.  $7471.00  That's nothing!  It's $50 per hour per man and $271.00 for gas.  Just Sayin'

Disclaimer:  I don't agree with the charge,  but the amount AIN'T steep.  Try gettin' a plumber at night for fifty an hour ::)

Just shut the dam water off at the main and wait till morning. Freaking plumbers and electricians and there $160 an hour average all said and done. Freaking crooks. Sorry if any of you are plumbers but you really are the crooks of the trades just a fact.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: DWT on April 24, 2012, 04:09:19 pm
Or twelve plumbers that don't fix the leak....
;D  LOL
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: M_Sprague on April 25, 2012, 10:59:47 am
Just shut the dam water off at the main and wait till morning. Freaking plumbers and electricians and there $160 an hour average all said and done. Freaking crooks. Sorry if any of you are plumbers but you really are the crooks of the trades just a fact.

I doubt most electricians or plumbers are getting an average $160 an hour for a normal call. That would be an emergency call, where they have to drop what they are doing and head over, or maybe a time and a half Saturday call. What ever they are getting paid gets eaten up pretty quickly. I know, I did the bookkeeping for a small business for many years. Sending a guy out in a van with all his equipment is not cheap. After payroll you have the cost of the vehicle and running it, insurance, advertising, time getting parts... on and on, and the business has to actually make some profit. I know it sucks to pay it, but that is what it costs.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: neiceclimber on April 25, 2012, 11:41:32 am
Not having to walk down through some of that krummholz is almost worth paying the 7g's.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: apbt1976 on April 25, 2012, 11:50:24 am
Just shut the dam water off at the main and wait till morning. Freaking plumbers and electricians and there $160 an hour average all said and done. Freaking crooks. Sorry if any of you are plumbers but you really are the crooks of the trades just a fact.

I doubt most electricians or plumbers are getting an average $160 an hour for a normal call. That would be an emergency call, where they have to drop what they are doing and head over, or maybe a time and a half Saturday call. What ever they are getting paid gets eaten up pretty quickly. I know, I did the bookkeeping for a small business for many years. Sending a guy out in a van with all his equipment is not cheap. After payroll you have the cost of the vehicle and running it, insurance, advertising, time getting parts... on and on, and the business has to actually make some profit. I know it sucks to pay it, but that is what it costs.

I am talking about the small two three man operation with the boss working. I was in the trades most of my life "carpenter, tile guy, painter" and have had many a plumber friends. It is a well known fact that plumbers and electricians rake in the $$$ in comparison being the $$$ they also make on markups of product "new boiler or water heater" blah blah blah.

Most of the plumber friends i have had over the years not only feel entitled the inflated rates they get in comparison to other trades but even go so far as to brag about it. I billed out $125 hr and then charged them $3000 for a boiler i payed $1500 for. Sure it is the way of the world just saying plumbers got it made in comparison to other trades and for what a good finish carpenter serves many years of apprenticeship just as does a plumber.

I am not all but hurt or anything as i don't even work in the trades anymore. Just saying...

Ow yeah pretty sure any 99.9% of Fish and Game employees working up north would be stoked to make $50 hr. Probably more like $8-25 max? Sure overhead has to be figured in but $50 hr seems a bit much if you are the one being stuck with the bill.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: crazyt on April 25, 2012, 01:56:14 pm
Crazy T may remember this, but in the late eighties / early ninetys, we were climbing at Dickey and I was moaning so bad on a hard slab route that a hiker on the Welch-Dickey trail above, but couldn't see me below, ran and called for a rescue. The fireman came and everything with their rubber boots and coats. They threatened us pretty good until Jay who was quite hairy and scary at the time set them straight. Still funny now.

That crew showed up with laid ropes and linesman boots. I remember thinking that if someone was just hurt their life would be at risk getting rescued by that crew.  Sans anchors, they were prepared to manually haul someone up the cliff. LOL
 I remember Dgoguen having a purple jacket and one of the rescuers yelling "is there someone with a purple jacket needing a rescue". Dave's jacket was reversible and they never found the guy in the purple jacket.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: eyebolter on April 25, 2012, 03:05:46 pm
My brother's wife was in a bouldering comp down here a couple of years ago and took a bad fall and hurt her lower back.  The EMT (about 18 maybe) who showed up called in the life-flight helicopter.  Fortunately, it was occupied, and a more experienced EMT showed up and called it off.  If it had come she would have had to pay for the whole thing....

Once you call 911 you will do as you are told, and then pay for it. 

I walked out of Huntington's to Pinkham on a broken ankle in the dark in winter, but that was pre-cell phones and who knows what I would do today.

Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: sneoh on April 25, 2012, 03:56:37 pm
My brother's wife was in a bouldering comp down here a couple of years ago and took a bad fall and hurt her lower back.  The EMT (about 18 maybe) who showed up called in the life-flight helicopter.  Fortunately, it was occupied, and a more experienced EMT showed up and called it off.  If it had come she would have had to pay for the whole thing....
That flight would have cost C&L much more than $7k!

I should try to fnd out the cost of the rescue Eric and I were involved in back in 2010.  That one invloved a justifiable 15/20-minute med-heli ride.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: frik on April 25, 2012, 04:01:55 pm
Seems like 90% of this BS would just vanish if everyone left their cell phones at home. I never understood why anyone would bring a cell phone - kinda defeats the who point.

Maybe the White Mountain Liberation Society could situate cardboard boxes at trail heads with a polite sign that said:
"blah blah blah.....Deposit you cell phone here"
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: neiceclimber on April 25, 2012, 04:26:10 pm
How it happens in Alaska.

http://www.adn.com/2012/04/24/2438172/helicopter-rescues-hikers-less.html (http://www.adn.com/2012/04/24/2438172/helicopter-rescues-hikers-less.html)

Now this is a little different than NH. First background on the area. It's in the city limits of Anchorage (300,000 population), its the first peak just south of the city with homes creeping up the west face, a highway that wraps around the south, an inlet to the south, and no real development south, east and north and regularly has winds that can exceed 100mph . It has several established trails, but above tree line not much. It's big bear country and big country by lower 48 standards, but in Ak it's a very urban peak, probably in the top 10 of most climbed peaks in Ak (which means nothing, 5-7 people on a busy weekend). 

I like this article for the simple statement that Ak PJ's fully believe in, and what all states and first responders should believe:

"We don't want people not calling us," she said. "We err on the side of caution, because we don't want cries for help to go unanswered and then disaster strikes. Our goal is public safety."



Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: The other tomcat on April 25, 2012, 05:15:42 pm
Fish and Game is a career. Starts at about forty a year and goes to sixty if you get some promotions, and it has a fat retirement plan. Going out at night is part of the job description, and I'm pretty sure while the hours vary, you don't have to show up at eight am if you went out all night. Realistically it seems hard to imagine twelve guys could not locate a woman with a cellphone under the circumstances. Not many of us get to charge if we don't produce results. Low comedy at best.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: ELM on April 25, 2012, 05:18:40 pm
The hard part here is Fish and Game overreacts at times. She was rescued by a team that is not paid so I have no idea how they could justify asking her to pay. We'll see sometime that this dumb idea of making people pay for their (NH) rescue will cause someone to die: it's just not right.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: DGoguen on April 26, 2012, 10:35:20 am
I remember Dgoguen having a purple jacket and one of the rescuers yelling "is there someone with a purple jacket needing a rescue". Dave's jacket was reversible and they never found the guy in the purple jacket.
The official asked me, have you seen a guy with a purple jacket. I said no man but good luck, as I'm standing there with my jacket inside out. Ha

This billing thing is essentially a fight between the state legislature and Fish and game over funding. Fish and Game is trying to force their hand for more funding. It's political, but this woman is caught in the middle.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: apbt1976 on April 26, 2012, 12:12:45 pm
I remember Dgoguen having a purple jacket and one of the rescuers yelling "is there someone with a purple jacket needing a rescue". Dave's jacket was reversible and they never found the guy in the purple jacket.
The official asked me, have you seen a guy with a purple jacket. I said no man but good luck, as I'm standing there with my jacket inside out. Ha

This billing thing is essentially a fight between the state legislature and Fish and game over funding. Fish and Game is trying to force their hand for more funding. It's political, but this woman is caught in the middle.

Nice gotta love this place...  or is it the humans you just cant help but love.

Everyone and their personal agenda and having to be right or have their way all the time. And every year that goes by those in charge of this shit show have a smaller and smaller and smaller collective IQ as they have been raised up by the Entitled generation and its me first mentality. Ok so maybe it has nothing to do with IQ but it does have to do with entitlement, personal agenda and those that get to be in charge being a piss poor representation of the general public in most cases.
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: strandman on April 28, 2012, 12:10:47 pm
You ain't seen nothin' until you hang out with YOSAR in Yosemite.  Phones on the PAVED part of the half Dome trail.. they get used too.. "it's dark' NO SHIT.. it's 10 pm !!!

And of course the quote form Fish- ' i don't see any blood, but there's gonna be some 'cause you dragged me away from a great party"
Title: Re: State bills rescued hiker $7k
Post by: hobbsj on May 05, 2012, 10:06:12 pm

Once you call 911 you will do as you are told, and then pay for it. 



WRONG!  You always have the right to refuse care!  If you refuse and they do anything, its assault.  Ambulance drivers have a nice little form just for that as well as hospitals having discharges "agains medical advice."  Unless, you are in an altered mental state or a minor with no adult, and then consent is implied.  One of the first rules of medicine and emergency care is consent.  They also don't bill unless services are rendered.  So, be careful b/c that bandaid and ice pack may be really expensive.  It would also be interesting to see the price breakdown.  I didn't read the article too much, but know that those numbers can be a bit fixed.  For instance, if 3 of 7 of the responder would be on duty anyways, is that accounted for?  Sometimes not.  Also, in the case of a helo rescue where an military chopper is utilized (not this case, I know), how is that calculated?  Many times they are utilized since the pilots are up flying and burning fuel just to get their flight hours in and essentially cost nothing.  I agree with accountability for rescues, but picking and choosing who to bill is a crock.