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General => General Climbing => Topic started by: Admin Al on May 01, 2012, 10:51:53 am

Title: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: Admin Al on May 01, 2012, 10:51:53 am
http://www.northjersey.com/news/Haworth_woman_killed_in_upstate_NY_rock_climbing_fall.html

it would be very interesting to get the full details. apparently "It appears that her group had girth-hitched multiple pieces of webbing around the tree at the top of the climb, and somehow the anchor came down with the rope she was on–whether from bad knots, an unclipped carabiner, or something else–details on the cause are still unclear." Hopefully it will be in AINAM.

http://www.climberism.com/climber-dies-at-the-gunks/
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: DLottmann on May 01, 2012, 11:14:21 am
1st off, RIP, a tragic loss and heartfelt condolences...

Now to attack the media. "Her equipment failed"...

We are so quick to absolve any person, whether it be the victim, or the people climbing with the victim of any possible blame when such an accident occurs. It is true the family should be spared the heartache, but I really wish the media could be a bit more objective sometimes.

Granted, I wasn't there and don't know what happened, and TBH we will probably never know as detailed objective reports rarely reach the ANAM, especially from the Gunks area. But we all know that climbing equipment rarely fails, and it is 99.9% user error when something like this happens.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: Admin Al on May 01, 2012, 12:31:14 pm
"...somehow the anchor came down with the rope she was on..."

[sigh]
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: DWT on May 01, 2012, 01:47:01 pm

We are so quick to absolve any person, whether it be the victim, or the people climbing with the victim of any possible blame when such an accident occurs. It is true the family should be spared the heartache, but I really wish the media could be a bit more objective sometimes.

For who?  Us or them?  We(climbers) know what happened.



Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: sneoh on May 01, 2012, 02:47:47 pm
Really sad.  1st time climbing and killed by a 15~20-foot fall.  How tragic. 
From the read, perhaps a TR top-anchor malfunction/failure ?  Probably not the victim's error given it was her 1st time climbing.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: strandman on May 01, 2012, 06:04:25 pm
If i comment, i wil get more negatives than Champ... Climbing is dangerous... You  gotta pay attention and KNOW what the fuck you are doing.

If a TR fails ????
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: apbt1976 on May 01, 2012, 06:36:59 pm
If i comment, i wil get more negatives than Champ... Climbing is dangerous... You  gotta pay attention and KNOW what the fuck you are doing.

If a TR fails ????

I just deleted all kinds of shit. I will leave it at i am also gonna keep my mouth shut.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: eyebolter on May 01, 2012, 07:24:56 pm
Last time I was at the Gunks I saw all kinds of crazy shyte.  Put Gotham city within a two hour drive of a world class multi-pitch trad crag and what do you expect? 

Frankly, I'm flabbergasted that people aren't killed there every weekend.  It is not for a lack of trying.

Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: M_Sprague on May 01, 2012, 07:58:21 pm
Poor girl. I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for a complete top anchor to fail (if that is indeed what happened) unless it is hit by a bolt of lightning out of the blue sky or a plane crash or something.

It sounds like she died of massive internal bleeding.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: hobbsj on May 01, 2012, 09:30:57 pm
The article really didn't state much regarding the cause.  Half you guys are just as bad as  the anonymous newspaper posters with their "stupid free spirit hippies" and "I know better never leaving my house b/c something bad could  happen" comments.  All we have is what the paper printed, which has been shown not to be a reliable source of information.  We participate in an inherently dangerous activity.  A young woman died.  That's about all the 100% factual information  we have.  We've all messed up and have had the luck not to have to pay the big one for one reason or another.  I'm sure if I had seen any one of you develop as a climber, I could shake my head at one point or another and scoff. How about we be respectful towards this young woman, and when more details are available, learn from it in any way we can and improve.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: apbt1976 on May 01, 2012, 10:57:32 pm
Good points John,

Hence partly the reason i zipped it.

The other part mostly due to having to take into consideration how often in life the outcome of any given situation can and does ultimately end up predominately determined by the tone set forth by just one individual. The responding officer, the climbing partner, the media blah blah blah.....
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: old_school on May 01, 2012, 11:12:52 pm
A tragic loss and such a young woman. My heart to goes out to her family and friends.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: sneoh on May 01, 2012, 11:36:19 pm
More info (though not sure of its accuracy) -
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12s/newswire-flash-woman-dies-gunks?utm_source

Off topic and making broad generalization ... I echo Ward's observations.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: DLottmann on May 02, 2012, 12:02:23 am
More info (though not sure of its accuracy) -
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12s/newswire-flash-woman-dies-gunks?utm_source

Off topic and making broad generalization ... but I echo Ward's observations.

Nothing new that I can see... maybe they pulled something? This is what it says currently:

"Stephanie Prezant, 22, died on Sunday of internal bleeding after falling from Easy Keyhole at the Trapps. Prezant was, reportedly, being lowered when the anchor she was top roping from failed. She was conscious on the ground but witnesses reported her condition to be "fading."

It is currently unclear what caused the anchor failure but initial reports indicate that the anchor involved either webbing, or a series of slings, girth-hitched around a tree. Some or all of this system was found on the ground near Prezant.

Alpinist.com will continue to update this page as more information becomes available."
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: sneoh on May 02, 2012, 12:07:07 am
DMan, the new info to me is, according to Alpinist.com, she fell while being lowered.  I thought neither of the earlier articles indicated when she actually weighted the rope.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: DLottmann on May 02, 2012, 12:18:24 am
Ah, I see. I read that somewhere in the comments of one of the articles from someone claiming to be nearby the time of the accident, and must have taken it as gospel.

If that is true, it hints to running the rope directly through the sling vrs. using a carabiner... Another supposed witness thought they saw a frayed sling which would also support the nylon meltdown scenario...

I'd like to say that type of error can't happen these days but I'd also like to think people have evolved beyond the "girth-hitch 6 shoulder length slings together" mentality as well...

Hopefully the truth comes to light and we can do what we can to prevent a similar tragedy in the future.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: steve weitzler on May 02, 2012, 12:48:50 pm
DMAN's assessment is exactly what I thought of at first.  If someone in fact did see a frayed sling I am betting they put the rope directly through the sling with no biners and eventually the heat melted the sling and she fell. I have seen that scenario more than once in almost 40 years of climbing. In fact I saw that once and mentioned it to the two young guys who were belaying a toprope (rope through slings). Their response was "you do things your way and we will do things our way."  I got the hell out of there as fast as I could as I did not want to be the one mopping up their remains.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: lucky luke on May 02, 2012, 02:19:32 pm
If i comment, i wil get more negatives than Champ... Climbing is dangerous... You  gotta pay attention and KNOW what the fuck you are doing.   If a TR fails ????
Hard to be as negatives as me. I fight so much those kind of accident in Quebec. Sport reality, but we can't say it. althought it can happen to trad climber, I am always mad at those who change what they said to make money with the accident: as the best guide you can ever had (me! me! me! I know what to do) or as some one who want to promote climbing for tourism. Yes climbing is dangerous.

I was thinking last night and thought that I began to walk on my four member around six or nine month, do my first step between nine and 12 months, run soon after and, still at 52..., I can slip on a patch of ice or wet floor or broke and ankle as I walk in a hole. When I saw people climbing in a gym and thinking that they are good after fifty or sixty hours of climbing and waiting in six month or a year and that I can slip as I walk...I understand that some thing go wrong. I get sick.

Althoug tope rope is easy, maybe the gunk is for trad. In any case: always keep it clean and be sure that you can verify the solidity of every knot and rope drag in a glance. After 25 years of climbing, I always verify two or three time my belay as I pull the rope of some one to the top. As I have the chance to climb with older climber, who can talk about danger and repeat always the same think, I am still afraid to make a mistake as when you walk in a center market and fall on a wet floor.

Take time to do it right. Take one or two year to learn prevention. It is the best...even if we can not save every one who do that dangerous sport. 
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 02, 2012, 04:08:45 pm
http://www.northjersey.com/haworth/Tragic_death_of_Haworth_woman_spurs_discussion_among_rock_climbers.html
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: DLottmann on May 02, 2012, 06:09:45 pm
http://www.northjersey.com/haworth/Tragic_death_of_Haworth_woman_spurs_discussion_among_rock_climbers.html

For an article out of New Jersey I'm impressed... ;)
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: David_G48 on May 02, 2012, 06:27:33 pm
DMan
If you want to see an interesting side conversation go to http://www.rockclimbing.com/ and review under Gear Heads  webbing VS static rope. The NEGuides owner took a bold stance and was burned until well done. I think his singular opinion stated as fact and general professional acceptance was not received well. I'm not saying he was right or wrong just my opinion differs from his in both his approach and technical expertise. It reminds me of when you go after Champ except on a grand scale.
David
PS Sorry my link is not a clicky thing as I am old and computer illiterate
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: Admin Al on May 02, 2012, 07:57:02 pm
there is NO real hard information at this time, so speculation is really worthless.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: DLottmann on May 02, 2012, 09:36:20 pm
DMan
If you want to see an interesting side conversation go to http://www.rockclimbing.com/ and review under Gear Heads  webbing VS static rope. The NEGuides owner took a bold stance and was burned until well done. I think his singular opinion stated as fact and general professional acceptance was not received well. I'm not saying he was right or wrong just my opinion differs from his in both his approach and technical expertise. It reminds me of when you go after Champ except on a grand scale.
David
PS Sorry my link is not a clicky thing as I am old and computer illiterate

Can you give me the 2 line synopsis? I really don't have time or desire to get involved with another climbing website. What was his stance? And who is NEGuides?
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: lucky luke on May 03, 2012, 01:24:05 pm
there is NO real hard information at this time, so speculation is really worthless.

I agree with you. Could be time to remember all mistake that some one can do as they climb in topr rope to fall... from an inattentive belayer, to a rope without carabiner on the webbing and clipping the wrong sling because there is too much knot on the belay.

One time I was solo climbing and I made a zipper effect on my belay. i aw the first pro pop out and I was waiting that the second get out of his crack...fearless: pure resignation. The stopper hold...and I had to do the traverse on that protection knowing that I won't be lucky two times.       
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 04, 2012, 11:20:18 am
Dave, Fairly intersting total meltdown in public. guy claiming to be a  tester for certification of guides in some new  guide governing body PCGS? went on a rant against useing webbing in  TR setups. Sprayed a bunch of stuff about what a pro guide he was and then it came to light that he is not certified but just a marketing administrator in the orginazation... OOOps  did I just lose my job?????? Oh sorry, :-[ my bad
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: PG on May 07, 2012, 07:51:55 am
I think we are all overlooking the simple reason for this accident to happen. The anchor did not follow RENE. Simple enough but some prople do not now what this means. Most people do not have some of the most basic anchor building skills. When I go out with new climbers and they want to set up the anchor, I tell them to rap down and test it out. It generally puts a different perspective on the matter. Most new climbers are more interested in buying the latest gear rather than some of the most important pieces of equipment. That can wait until later. For example a helmet, a book or two on climbing anchors or even a book on knots, or even a lesson on setting up a top rope. Most guiding companys or even climbing gyms offer a one day class for short money. Certianly far less then the cost of a funeral.
Several years ago in France a person died while climbing. It seems that his belayer was not paying attention to his climber. The belayer droped the climber resulting in death. The belayer was convicted of third degree murder. Do you think this case is similar? Does anyone think that the person who set up the top rope anchor has any responsibility in setting it up safely (RENE). Should that person be held legally responsible for that persons death. I'm not out to hang anyone but peple should know how serious this game is. People need to take responsibility for their actions even it their actions lead to the death of others. Sounds harsh but death of that young girl should never have happened. Not from a toprope anchor failure ! Yes, I'm pissed.

Pete
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: frik on May 07, 2012, 08:30:11 am
dOOD, I've been climbing since goldline and stiff soled boots - i have no idea what RENE means.....

I plead ignorance your honor.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: carp on May 07, 2012, 08:30:47 am
I think we are all overlooking the simple reason for this accident to happen. The anchor did not follow RENE. Simple enough but some prople do not now what this means. Most people do not have some of the most basic anchor building skills. When I go out with new climbers and they want to set up the anchor, I tell them to rap down and test it out. It generally puts a different perspective on the matter. Most new climbers are more interested in buying the latest gear rather than some of the most important pieces of equipment. That can wait until later. For example a helmet, a book or two on climbing anchors or even a book on knots, or even a lesson on setting up a top rope. Most guiding companys or even climbing gyms offer a one day class for short money. Certianly far less then the cost of a funeral.
Several years ago in France a person died while climbing. It seems that his belayer was not paying attention to his climber. The belayer droped the climber resulting in death. The belayer was convicted of third degree murder. Do you think this case is similar? Does anyone think that the person who set up the top rope anchor has any responsibility in setting it up safely (RENE). Should that person be held legally responsible for that persons death. I'm not out to hang anyone but peple should know how serious this game is. People need to take responsibility for their actions even it their actions lead to the death of others. Sounds harsh but death of that young girl should never have happened. Not from a toprope anchor failure ! Yes, I'm pissed.

Pete

Exactly!!  What the climbing community needs to maintain it's high standards of safety is more climbers like you who were never new and ignorant, never made mistakes, never went out for the first time trusting someone else to keep you safe, and always knew exactly what to do in every situation. Thank aged for you. If only there were more people like you it would be a better world. Jackass.

And what is this RENE stuff anyways. I've been an outdoor educator for  18 years and I've never heard this one. Maybe that means I don't know what I'm doing so I shouldn't go climbing again until I take a class from someone?!??!!!
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: lucky luke on May 07, 2012, 08:51:53 am
I think we are all overlooking the simple reason for this accident to happen. The anchor did not follow RENE. Simple enough but some prople do not now what this means. Most people do not have some of the most basic anchor building skills. When I go out with new climbers and they want to set up the anchor, I tell them to rap down and test it out.

For me, rapp is very dangerous and someone who told to a new climber to rap most be sue in law...more than someone who make a mistake and where the result is an injury. In a criminal aspect, one most have the intention to do some thing wrong and I can bet that any of the climber, even those who gave me regularly negative karma, want that an accident happen. Even on the helmet topic, those who dont want to use an helmet gave a safety reason, a false sensation of safety as it is better not to fall in your head without helmet than to fall in your head with an helmet, to not use an helmet (which is true). Those who teach climbing are more concern by criminal sue. There decision to gave information to have more client than to gave borring information or to gave information that prevent accident in a gym, but are dangerous in the wild, make a consciousness act that can endanger some people.     

Ounce, I suggest to have an obligatory course for trad climbing to inform people on the basic theory, to make sure that the climber understand the basic of gravity ( if you have a force down (body weight) you most have an equivalent force to pull you up (rope an anchor). This concept is very different than do it like that and like this and you will be safe. For me, climbing is like holding a gun. Today, in Quebec, some one who want to use a gun mos follow a safety course. In my driving course, long time ago, I had a session where they show me what happen if I was careless. It help me to stay concentrate on the road even today (belt, distance, speed, etc).

After setting an anchor, a second climber can verify the set up with a beginer or occasional climber. The new climber are generaly very carefull at not making mistake. The danger is more when someone know enought to kill themselve and not enought to understand what is going on. Following a leader for one year is not exagerate in those circonstances. Most important: stop to think that easy is 5.9. Those who said that are very close to criminal for me. If your chance of falling is one over 100, there is less chances to be injure than if your chances of falling is fifty percent.   
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: slevasse on May 07, 2012, 09:12:18 am
dOOD, I've been climbing since goldline and stiff soled boots - i have no idea what RENE means.....

I plead ignorance your honor.

Looked it up but I only found it as SRENE = Solid Redundant Equalized Non-Extending.  Never saw any mention of RENE without the S. 
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: frik on May 07, 2012, 11:40:47 am
Jeesh always thought "Solid" meant all that other stuff.... except "non extending" i have no idea what that means   
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: PG on May 07, 2012, 11:59:10 am
RENA is the same without the S. I always check an anchor before anyone uses the rope. I say that only to make that person realize how important it is to be sure the anchor is safe and up to AMGA standards. So some of you folks are saying it's OK to make a mistake that will kill someone and not be accountable for it ? What would happen if it were a car accident and someone was killed. Should the driver be able to walk away and say sorry, I didn't know ?

Pete
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: JBro on May 07, 2012, 03:49:42 pm
So some of you folks are saying it's OK to make a mistake that will kill someone and not be accountable for it ? 

No, I think they're saying they don't need an acronym from a fancy guide association to remind themselves that their anchor should be safe.


Look both ways
OK...?
Ahhh ha
Den lets get going.

Look I made up an acronym for crossing the street...
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: frik on May 07, 2012, 04:00:53 pm
Well i think it is actually  ok to kill someone by mistake.... as long as you use a gun and say "i felt threatened"!

We need an acronym for that:  FIFKTFBFM -IFFT!

Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: Old Mans Ghost on May 07, 2012, 04:07:37 pm
Pretty sure you can kill someone totally on purpose for that, if you do it in the right State.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: lucky luke on May 07, 2012, 07:31:58 pm
So some of you folks are saying it's OK to make a mistake that will kill someone and not be accountable for it ?
Pete

Maybe it is my english as the definition of mistake is: An action or judgment that is misguided or wrong: "coming here was a mistake".

If the action is done deliberately, I agree that you must be accountable for it.

If you make a mistake without any intention to make a misguided or wrong judgment, you will have enought selfconsciousness of the gravity of what you have done that putting more stress to that person will just destroy an other life.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: hobbsj on May 07, 2012, 09:13:05 pm
Pretty sure you can kill someone totally on purpose for that, if you do it in the right State.

You hippies make me miss Texas! :-)
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: apbt1976 on May 07, 2012, 09:23:40 pm
Pretty sure you can kill someone totally on purpose for that, if you do it in the right State.

You hippies make me miss Texas! :-)

kale and bean eating hippies lol ;)

Whats up dude how are the feet. When do you leave for your two months of vaca?
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: carp on May 07, 2012, 10:37:52 pm
So some of you folks are saying it's OK to make a mistake that will kill someone and not be accountable for it ? What would happen if it were a car accident and someone was killed. Should the driver be able to walk away and say sorry, I didn't know ?

I'm just saying that I don't know about yours, but my climbing career is nowhere near perfect enough to allow me to be judgemental of other people's mistakes. I think that most people who climb enough will end up getting lucky at some point. And I'm sure that these folks are way more upset about the death of their friend than I could be. I don't think that a bunch of spray from the peanut gallery is really gonna help them any.
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: Jeff on May 08, 2012, 08:13:42 am
@Carp +2  Oops, machine says I can only give +1 without waiting an hour--the thought counts, right? ;D
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: DLottmann on May 08, 2012, 09:05:32 am
“S” was dropped from RENE as it was a bit of a given that an anchor should be “solid or secure”.

While it isn’t necessary to strictly abide by acronyms it is proven it helps people memorize key points of concepts in all walks of life, climbing included. It is helpful for beginners learning the complex concepts of building safe gear anchors but by no means the only way it should be done. There’s also exceptions to almost every “rule” in the RENE acronym.

- Redundant- Well if it’s a huge pine tree one is OK right?
- Equalized- I’m not too worried about “true” equalization if each point is very strong
- No Extension- Again, not a big deal if each piece is really strong but I emphasize “limited extension”. If one piece falls you should not have 5 feet of slack in the system...

I don’t think anything has been announced that’s conclusive about this accident but I will say I hate seeing multiple shoulder length slings girth hitched together... that is inviting to many potential weak links in the system...
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: JBro on May 08, 2012, 02:16:35 pm
I think acronyms are fine for teaching beginners, but after the initial learning period does anybody actually stop while building each anchor and walk themselves through RENE? I doubt more than a tiny percent of the most anal individuals among us do that.

Assuming whoever built that anchor wouldn't have made that mistake if he had been taught RENE, for one thing, assumes that he hadn't been taught RENE. We have no idea if that's the case in this situation. It could easily be that the anchor builder was experienced, and just somehow did something incomprehensible. Or he could be inexperience and screwed up despite having been taught RENE. Or something else equally baffling happened.

For my part anyway, I just get offended by the idea that oversight and/or rigid guidelines and methods of teaching need to be applied to all just because of one extraordinarily uncommon occurrence. Especially considering we don't even know what happened in this case.



edit for grammar
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: DLottmann on May 08, 2012, 11:49:00 pm
I think acronyms are fine for teaching beginners, but after the initial learning period does anybody actually stop while building each anchor and walk themselves through RENE? ...

For my part anyway, I just get offended by the idea that oversight and/or rigid guidelines and methods of teaching need to be applied to all just because of one extraordinarily uncommon occurrence. Especially considering we don't even know what happened in this case.

I totally agree. It only helps the newest of climbers and as soon as the concepts are understood off paper acronyms should go right out the window. Each person is different so some may hold onto the slow walk through of RENE while others grasp it quick and yell off belay before you freeze to death.

Just to be clear I am definitely not advocating anything is changed regarding guidelines or teaching methods especially because we still have no idea what happened, though I would advocate people stop girth-hitching 8 slings together to extend their anchors over an edge somewhere... It just looks stoopid

I know I’m ranting about it but you know where I see it most? Top of the North End Pillars in winter. There’s no fricking friction on smooth water ice folks, you can keep you master point up near the gigantic pine tree so your peeps can top out and lower back down nice and comfy cozy...
Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: sneoh on May 09, 2012, 12:04:08 am
I would advocate people stop girth-hitching 8 slings together to extend their anchors over an edge somewhere... It just looks stoopid
I have to fess up and admit that I have done something like this but only a max of 4 slings. :)
More recently I read about a series of tests which showed how much a knot lowers the breaking strength of a sling by.  The lower failure load is not too bad if one were to girth-hitch nylon-to-nylon or Dyneema-to-Dyneema.  But the decrease is significantly larger if one were to girth-hitch nylon-to-Dyneema.  I decided I would go with the cheaper all nylon from now on and replace them more frequently (rather than trying to eek out 5 to 8 years of use with Dyneema).

Title: Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
Post by: strandman on May 09, 2012, 09:59:56 am
Acronyms ??

Tom Callaghan- " Belay Anchors Are Sacred "  BAAS

Works for me