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General => Rock Climbing: Trad => Topic started by: JBro on November 28, 2012, 02:01:51 PM

Title: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on November 28, 2012, 02:01:51 PM
What would be some good routes for working via self-belayed toprope in the 5.9 to 5.10 range?

I'm looking to pick 2 trad routes, one slab/face and one crack or mixed--as projects for next year for days when I get stuck without a partner. Ideally both routes would have good enough pro to eventually be led. (Pro doesn't have to be perfect but nothing R for me.)

I want to avoid cluster faaaking any of the busy classics (these would mostly be weekend days), and so don't mind an approach to one of the backwoods cliffs. Ideally the routes would have easy access from the top and be free of a bunch of complications such as long traverses etc.

Franconia or NC areas would be ok.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: Griffin on November 28, 2012, 02:26:28 PM
The final pitch of The Prow on Cathedral comes to mind for crack/fingerlock, easily protected from the top, then waltz over to Reverse Camber for face. 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: DLottmann on November 28, 2012, 03:18:41 PM
How about the entire Barber Wall? Many classics and rarely ever a line... easy access to the top, etc... wire all those 5.9’s on TR and you should be a crack climbing fiend...

Nutcracker, Double V, Chicken’s Delight, and Layton's... a great work-out afternoon....
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: frik on November 28, 2012, 03:43:14 PM
Three birches... hardly ever anyone on that. The business end of p1 has a bit of a diagonal traverse on it but not too long.
And it is a 9 no matter what the guidebook says
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: Admin Al on November 28, 2012, 03:46:10 PM
And it is a 9 no matter what the guidebook says

no mistake about that...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: strandman on November 28, 2012, 05:43:28 PM
Except for nutcracker and lichen, the Barber sucks.
i'm guessing things like Ethereal are out of the question ,, so you want to hit the Airation Buttress.. Airation is an easy tr and though a bit tough. it's really not. Reach the Sky is  killer 11 with pretty good pro... tabu is a decent , short 10c.
if you want to walk-
Albany Slabs has sweet 5.10 slabs , easy tr and a couple of OK finger cracks.

i'm sure i have more
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: strandman on November 28, 2012, 05:47:07 PM
Division Of labor- above the pendulum roof

One rap in takes you to a sweet belay and then 3 short sections of climbing above that. you can do them a pitch at a time AND recently scrubbed. 9+/10+/10C
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: lucky luke on November 28, 2012, 09:10:13 PM
What would be some good routes for working via self-belayed toprope in the 5.9 to 5.10 range?

I'm looking to pick 2 trad routes, one slab/face and one crack or mixed--as projects for next year for days when I get stuck without a partner. Ideally both routes would have good enough pro to eventually be led. (Pro doesn't have to be perfect but nothing R for me.)

You may ask in the sport section. In trad, I don't know a lot of true trad climber who will like to work a route. We had a topic on working layback and it look like that there is many layback...and you will be able to eventually led every layback in the world at your level", not just a couple of route. I did self belay in trad, I was leading easy route that I solo after a while.

I also do self belay in aid climbing, I place one pro, remove it, place an other, remove it and stand on the third one, the most scary one, to understand how to place a good pro. Ed Webster also do a training on trad, that I learned from second hand: took your rack, go to barber wall and place every single pro that you have in a pitch...to find rest, when it is a good time and you make sound placement or when you are at the wrong place at the wrong moment.

In a gym. it is also possible to train technicaly to onsight a route anywhere in the world by doing, for example, very open layback, to the right or to the left on a same route. Unfortunately, the presence of sport climber is very important and, even in a gym, you just train to show at other that you climb hard and there is no route call layback training...or undercling training or flag training...etc.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: JBro on November 28, 2012, 09:25:46 PM
Champ I don't particularly care if you think I'm not a "true" trad climber if I choose to project some routes on toprope. But in case you are not aware, many trad climbers at the cutting edge are doing exactly this to push their skills. (Of course on stuff a lot harder than 5.9 and 5.10 but whatever.)

Keep the suggestions coming--I'm going to check them all out in the guidebook and then choose a couple.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: DLottmann on November 28, 2012, 10:15:13 PM
Three birches... hardly ever anyone on that. The business end of p1 has a bit of a diagonal traverse on it but not too long.
And it is a 9 no matter what the guidebook says

And how would you TR solo this? Even if you rapped in from the treed ledge running your rope over that roof would be hell...

And Ethereal/Seventh Seal are great TR solo, but you must rope-solo, solo, or lead the 1st pitch of Beezebub (5.5, crux off the ground) to get to the anchors...

Should we be using the term "toprope solo"... probably more accurate to say Toprope self-belay eh?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: sneoh on November 28, 2012, 11:05:11 PM
In a gym. it is also possible to train technically to onsight a route anywhere in the world by doing, for example, very open layback, to the right or to the left on a same route. Unfortunately, the presence of sport climber is very important and, even in a gym, you just train to show at other that you climb hard and there is no route call layback training...or undercling training or flag training...etc.
Haha, you must only have been to poor or poser-filled gyms.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: xcrag_corex on November 28, 2012, 11:12:57 PM
I have a suggestion J(and i may have ulterior motives: i'm curious myself) . Is it possible to do a self belay TR on Crack in the Woods? Never been out there but the route looks cool and if it is easy to get to the top and set up it might be a cool crack to work :)
 :)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: DLottmann on November 29, 2012, 12:05:42 AM
I have a suggestion J(and i may have ulterior motives: i'm curious myself) . Is it possible to do a self belay TR on Crack in the Woods? Never been out there but the route looks cool and if it is easy to get to the top and set up it might be a cool crack to work :)
 :)

I been out there once, and suffered my way up it after someone let it quite a few years ago... if my memory serves me it would be pretty hard reaching the top to set a TR, or impossible... much more options closer to town...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DGoguen on November 29, 2012, 08:52:55 AM
Hey J
I've done this one on weekday evenings being extra extra careful not to drop in on any "true" trad climbers.
Set an anchor in Little Feat, drop into Gypsy, then drop into Recompense, then Faux pas arete all from the same anchor.
Repeat until your arms fall off.
Not even close on weekend days but a good workout.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: old_school on November 29, 2012, 09:24:20 AM
I have a suggestion J(and i may have ulterior motives: i'm curious myself) . Is it possible to do a self belay TR on Crack in the Woods? Never been out there but the route looks cool and if it is easy to get to the top and set up it might be a cool crack to work :)
 :)

I clawed and cried my way up that several years ago and the top out sucks. We ended up rapping off a dead...(rotten and hollowed out) tree at the top left. I won't make a plea for bolts, but the good climbing ends long before that crumbly finish and it drops you off on that rotten kind of sketchy ledge with no safe way to the bottom (IMHO). It would be a pain in the ass to try to TR that route...almost impossible unfortunately because it really is an interesting and challenging climb!
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on November 29, 2012, 09:39:14 AM
No, Don't even try to TR Crack In the Woods  !!!
It proes so well though you could work it like a sport climb.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: M_Sprague on November 29, 2012, 10:17:18 AM
Jimmy Dunn was totally fine with the idea of bolted anchors on Stewat's Crack when I called him. If the top out is that bad and the tree he probably used is now dead, I bet if somebody asked him he would be fine with an anchor on Crack in the Woods. It's worth a call. He is fun to chat with anyway 8)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: SA on November 29, 2012, 10:35:42 AM
I was out at Crack in the Woods last year. Seriously, at the end of the pitch, you are 15-20 feet out from the base. If you came off, halfway up, you would never get back on. Not worth the effort, to set up a top rope, but a great route.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on November 29, 2012, 12:05:23 PM
i think that the normal anchor for CITW is/was a fixed gizmo at 3/4 height. HOPEFULLY is has been upgrade  some... I think it was a hex/pin combo     :-\

maybe a new belay should be here instead of the clifftop ??? I doubt jimmie  cares.. I'll ask him though.  Beware of getting the rope stuck at the lip, I have seen cams invert several times., a hex would solve the problem.

Go over to Pumping Station sometime- now THAT'S some steep
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Admin Al on November 29, 2012, 03:07:12 PM
go over to Found Ledge and put up TR's on the Lumberjack Wall. lots of hard climbing and east setup.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: eyebolter on November 29, 2012, 05:27:31 PM
go over to Found Ledge and put up TR's on the Lumberjack Wall. lots of hard climbing and east setup.

But the op asked for 9/10 routes, those are harder aren't they?  I remember doing lumberjack cause it was the easiest at solid 11, but maybe my memory banks are running low....

I think just go to the Slot at the practice wall at cathedral. There is never a line if you get your ass out of bed early, even on the weekend.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: xcrag_corex on November 29, 2012, 05:51:03 PM
Thanks for the info for CITW. You only ever see the awesome crack in pics....not what lurks above...good to know having never been out there in person....
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: lucky luke on November 29, 2012, 06:19:03 PM
I don't particularly care if you think I'm not a "true" trad climber if I choose to project some routes on toprope.

if you don't care...why don't you post this thread on the sport section!!!! You just want that the people think that they most do sport and after try trad.

As a trad climber, I like to do crack in the wood. Maybe the crack is going to be stronger than me and I will lost, maybe I will train enought to have the skill to onsight it. It is the reason why I don't try it actually. I have a chalenge just to talk about it, try8ing to see me on the cliff climbing it. I just have a little information by webster book red some time ago and I just feel all the sensation to walk to the cliff to do it. Ounce you try it, onsight is impossible.

Great diedral at poko is more at my level. I can't onsight it actually because I did the first pitch whit one of my friend. He wanted to bail after the first pitch and I was in the obligation to bail. But still. I never be in the second pitch and it look amasing.

If you ask your question in the sport section, you will have the same answer with the same person. Except that working a route is an ethic very normal in sport... It is not the ethic of trad. Trad climber like to do a route bottom up. 

I don't say don't climb it or don't do it...I don't even say that it is cheating.  I just say that it is a sport ethic and it is not because most sport climber don't make a distinction that the distinction doesn't exist.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: M_Sprague on November 29, 2012, 07:04:51 PM
I like to do crack...

I think we know the problem now.


Luke, most climbers are not fixated on pigeon holing themselves into categories, analyzed down to the atomic level. They want to go out and have fun, what ever way they feel like at the moment. Even the definition of trad is not nearly as narrow as you make it.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on November 29, 2012, 07:47:43 PM
No longer with bolted anchors (or so I have been told) and possibly very busy on weekends, perhaps the North End climbs are possible candidates (?).  Otherwise I think Airation (as John said) is a candidate.


Psst, Champ, here's a secret about sport climbing - onsight sends of routes while hanging one's own draws are much sought after.  And many 'sport climbers' rather not have to work routes for sends.  Isn't that just amazing?  Who would have thought, huh?  Few things in this world are as black and white as you try to make them out to be.  Chew on that for a while, will you?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Toprope Solo
Post by: lucky luke on November 29, 2012, 08:17:58 PM
I like to do crack...

I think we know the problem now.


Luke, most climbers are not fixated on pigeon holing themselves into categories, analyzed down to the atomic level. They want to go out and have fun, what ever way they feel like at the moment. Even the definition of trad is not nearly as narrow as you make it.

or the definition of sport is not as wide as you describe it!!!

Clipping a bolt or a cam that you already know the size, the direction and without anticipating the move. We are far from a climber going to yosemite to climb arrow head arrete (5.8+).

I know a lot of people who dream to do royal arches without any previous knowledge of the cliff. In general, they won't write any thing when there is controversy. It is the reason why I am asking you to make the distinction.   

It is a good question...at a wrong place...

You always shout at loud that it is not important.

proove it, wrote it in sport and i won't bother you any more.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on November 29, 2012, 08:42:18 PM
If you want to have a discussion about the ethics of onsight versus working routes go start your own thread please.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on November 29, 2012, 10:23:00 PM
If you want to have a discussion about the ethics of onsight versus working routes go start your own thread please.

the question is not about the thread, which can be very interesting for a sport climber and you will end up with so many partner than you won't need to ask the question.

The question is more than on which section of the forum is more suit to post a sport climbing question? If you ask to trad climber that make the second edition of webster book, the trad ethic, most of them will say that working a route a multi time to find how to place the pro as secure as a bolt, how to do the movement as fast as you can to avoid to be pump before the end of the route, working a route in that sense...is completely at the opposite of doing the route in less attend as possible, looking for rest to understand the move and place solid pro in lead and getting stronger to be able to have the strength to go to the top.

j brochu...you really don't know that you practice sport ethic??? 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on November 29, 2012, 10:50:30 PM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/11/11/M_880xuQSU-JFTBf5xeJyA2.jpg)

(http://cdn.calisphere.org/data/13030/78/kt4h4nb078/figures/caljsiol_sio1ca175_103_011.gif)

(http://images.wikia.com/unanything/images/8/82/Modern-interwebz-troll.jpg)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on November 29, 2012, 10:57:27 PM
Someone's all worked up and appointed himself forum police.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on November 30, 2012, 12:28:18 AM
it goes round and round and round again.... when does it stop? No one knows!

sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad

when does it stop? No one knows!

HEAD EXPLODES

Anyone else sick of Lucky Luke (Champ) hijacking 50% of the threads on these forums with his endless debating of the differences of sport & trad? I for one am, to the point where I have seriously considered deleting my account... instead I'll start one of those fun polls to see how alone, or with company, I am.... NEIce somehow ran Champ off.... I don't know how... but I think if we ban together Al might just send Champ packing... no offense Champ, in person I liked talking to you... but here... you degrade this site with your repetitive rhetoric leeching into almost every topic... and the shit you say in eulogy posts... well I think Al has more than enough to justify banning you... but it ain't my site... let's see what those who vote here think... please move over to the poll I am creating...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: SA on November 30, 2012, 08:08:42 AM
So funny- I can't stop laughing!
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on November 30, 2012, 08:09:53 AM
it goes round and round and round again.... when does it stop? No one knows!

sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad

when does it stop? No one knows!

In the forum, they already made a distinction: "For those who enjoy placing protection on their own"!!! M_spague clearly say:  "I bet if somebody asked him he would be fine with an anchor on Crack in the Woods. It's worth a call."

I understand that many people prefer more protection and follow shiny bolt. There will be more people who will do sport. In the reality, we shouldd see more people writing in sport section. it is not the case. People want to do trad, but there is just a few people who want to bollt or place permanent protection (three birtches cam) in the middle of the crux. 

The reality is that some of you just want to wrote your sport technique (top roping a route and working the route from the top instead of bottom up) in the trad section. Those who make sport and wanting to trad route are not as prepare because they cclimb 5.9 before learning how to protect themselve. The results is more accident cause by stupid things. The contrary of what you want.

I think that I respect all the condition of the forum. It is very respectfull of sport climber, It is on topic as there is no top rope route in sport except for beginers....and I gave some exercise for a trad climber climbing alone to train to do more safety route whith his budy.     

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on November 30, 2012, 08:43:48 AM
So, Champ, a not so hypothetical question; is the practice of 'headpointing' trad or sport according to you?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on November 30, 2012, 09:33:48 AM
it goes round and round and round again.... when does it stop? No one knows!

sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad sport trad

when does it stop? No one knows!

In the forum, they already made a distinction: "For those who enjoy placing protection on their own"!!! M_spague clearly say:  "I bet if somebody asked him he would be fine with an anchor on Crack in the Woods. It's worth a call."

I understand that many people prefer more protection and follow shiny bolt. There will be more people who will do sport. In the reality, we shouldd see more people writing in sport section. it is not the case. People want to do trad, but there is just a few people who want to bollt or place permanent protection (three birtches cam) in the middle of the crux. 

The reality is that some of you just want to wrote your sport technique (top roping a route and working the route from the top instead of bottom up) in the trad section. Those who make sport and wanting to trad route are not as prepare because they cclimb 5.9 before learning how to protect themselve. The results is more accident cause by stupid things. The contrary of what you want.

I think that I respect all the condition of the forum. It is very respectfull of sport climber, It is on topic as there is no top rope route in sport except for beginers....and I gave some exercise for a trad climber climbing alone to train to do more safety route whith his budy.     

(http://www.ohmagif.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/what-did-you-just-say.gif)

(http://images.wikia.com/theamazingworldofgumball/images/d/d3/Afro-shaking-head-no.gif)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on November 30, 2012, 09:38:08 AM
Your turn champ.

(http://i.imgur.com/I6GSf.gif)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on November 30, 2012, 11:10:41 AM
J- the brother with the 'fro may be the funniest thing ever on NE Climbs   :)

LL- have you done Crack In the Woods ??? If you have, you would know it needs an anchor.. if you have not then.......

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on November 30, 2012, 11:31:22 AM
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31068456.jpg)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on November 30, 2012, 11:57:25 AM
Oh god I needed that... if he keeps generating these pics lets let him stay!
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: mopowers on November 30, 2012, 12:22:25 PM
I dont read a single thing this guy writes (Lucky/Champ). I just seamlessly skip every one of his posts in a given thread. Does not bother me at all. For the longest time i was always just assuming he was talking about or to tradman since every one of his post starts with trad.

Back to the original topic if it even matters anymore. If your willing to drive to VT, Wheeler Mt has some great areas for toprope soloing. My first recommendation is the Moosehead Crack area. You can easily hike around to the top anchors for that area. From the same anchor you can set up for Moosehead Crack (5.8 crack) and Kind Gesture (5.10b slab/Face) without reconfiguring your anchor or adding directionals. Both are about 90' and clean and safe for toproping alone.

Continue past the Moosehead anchors following the trail will bring you to another set of rings. From these anchors you can lower and toprope The Switch and The Apprentice (5.10's). A little more of a commitment since they are 180' and involve a small roof at half height. Sometimes i only rap down to above the roof and climb up from there (5.9 on both from this point).
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on November 30, 2012, 12:35:30 PM
Oh god I needed that... if he keeps generating these pics lets let him stay!
Try this line out -
"I do not always climb trad, but when I do, I climb it ground-up." .... "Stay ethical, my friends!". :):)

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: frik on November 30, 2012, 12:59:20 PM
Or
"I don't always read LL/Champ, but when i does, my brain head, she hurtz"
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on November 30, 2012, 05:30:03 PM
After hospital, i will climb sport, but on  toprope
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 30, 2012, 06:30:53 PM
champ is not offensive in any way. His needle is just stuck and skipping on the record :-[
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on November 30, 2012, 06:47:14 PM
After hospital, i will climb sport, but on  toprope
Really?  Say it ain't so, John.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: M_Sprague on November 30, 2012, 06:56:40 PM
Is that really sport, John? Top roping proceeded sport, so it must be trad. I don't think we can give you credit.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on November 30, 2012, 09:40:04 PM
i learned to climb at the Quarries  Tr and solo.... maybe i was effected
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: OldEric on November 30, 2012, 10:14:39 PM
i learned to climb at the Quarries  Tr and solo.... maybe i was effected


Maybe????
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: old_school on December 01, 2012, 07:14:31 AM
i learned to climb at the Quarries  Tr and solo.... maybe i was effected


Maybe????

Oh no....I started on top rope too back in the late 70's. I had no idea I was being lead by the hand to the darkside...the sport demons lie!!!  :-[

And yes, that route needs and anchor! And it would still be one of the burliest 5.10 trad routes out there.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Jeff on December 01, 2012, 08:05:15 AM
Is it a toprope if someone else leads? :-\ OMG, I'm not as cool as I thought ??? But is it trad 8) or shhhh  ( the dreaded word that shall not be mentioned)  :-X and all this time I thought it was just climbing! My bad :-[
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 01, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
It is just climbing, folks, unless you are drinking the same KoolAid Champ is ......
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 01, 2012, 11:48:44 AM
i learned to climb at the Quarries  Tr and solo.... maybe i was effected


Maybe????

Ha- and you ????
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 01, 2012, 12:26:53 PM
Is that really sport, John? Top roping proceeded sport, so it must be trad. I don't think we can give you credit.

A second in trad is also a sport climber? Before a team was mostly a first who make the hard move and a second who climb after. The second don't have all that stress of the first and soon climb faster an in better style, except when he won't have to bring the bag.

We can think that sport ethic came from the long hours that a second have to wait before he could climb. It is boring to be at the belay when your leader take for ever to climb...and it is worse when you know that you can on sight the move in few minutes. But I don't think that it is the real reason to it. Trad is more associate with hiking. I went to ?caracoa? mountain and we walked in the woods for a while, thrue ice section and finely climbed the rocky last part. It was a fun trip and both my woman and me enjoy to be in the wild whoever hiked first.

I most say that for a 5.11 climber, doing a route with just one move of 5.11 can be boring and if your partner is a gym freshly climber of 5.10...with no experiences, it can't be worse. Those guy had the opportunity to climb at there level with more than one or two move, if it so, in a same pitch. As they climb bottom up, they can try a route many time before they finally get the solution and few new routes appears every years. As they do it bottom up, they don't care about  falling fifteen or fourteen feet from where they loose contact with the rock. As for crack in the wood, SA said:  "Seriously, at the end of the pitch, you are 15-20 feet out from the base. If you came off, halfway up, you would never get back on. Not worth the effort, to set up a top rope, but a great route". And strandman said that we most place a bolt for the last fifteen or twenty feet to not fall...in the air. For me, it is like changing crack in the wood for crack to the bolt...a non sens. But it is my opinion. (a hiking trail can be fun. They certainly did a belay on natural gear)

Trying to imitate the strongest is good. But in that case, many people try to imitate the 5.11 trad climber in short route before knowing how to protect themselve. They skip those knowledge and, has a solution, place a bolt. It is the same thing as seconding a route, when a guide teach to his student how to make a move and they wasn't able to do it. They try, and try and try again to be able to climb. The popularity of that situation is obvious an many climber with child find a way to be with other friend, share stressfull exercise and chalenge at there level. The evolution of sport take a different option for the 5.6 or 5.7 level where, in one case the climber opt for leading higher level on bolt and where the trad climber opt for aid climbing to learn how to place pro, seconding multi pitch, and try there first lead on a free bolt cliff.

Unfortunately, some bad people just humiliate climber of 5.6 or 5.7 level who want to trad climb. There is no differences between trad and sport...but train for sport!!! They said that climbing began at 5.9. They talk as if they were the master of the rock, but are the first to critizise those trad climber who lead a route bottom up with no injury in a fall...even if the fall is of 40 feet like crack in the wood. There is no differences, but when a little girl of 12 years climbed half dome, they don't understand that trad is also fun and different in the way you learn your safety.

it is two different ethic and both can be fun. I prefer a hike in the wood with friend to relax... sport prefer a gymnast or martial art competition with intimidation (look at the post of...). I just said: choose the way you like to climb! and wrote your post to respect the people who don't share the way you choose to climb.       
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 01, 2012, 05:35:58 PM
what I SAID was-- perhaps the anchor for CITW should be where it is now and NOT at the top ofthe cliff.. if you do the climb, you will see why.
It has nothing to do with falling or gear or anything else- nothing
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 01, 2012, 05:55:35 PM
what I SAID was-- perhaps the anchor for CITW should be where it is now and NOT at the top ofthe cliff.. if you do the climb, you will see why.
It has nothing to do with falling or gear or anything else- nothing
Maybe I will try CITW next summer. It could be a solution to have a rap anchor if it doesn't change the chalenge of the route. I did arrowhead arrete in yosemite and without bolt, we were probably death at this moment. The bolt was for the rap anchor very far from the summit. There was nothing on the four square feet summit. We just place the rope around it to return in the valley.

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 01, 2012, 08:21:17 PM
Is that really sport, John? Top roping proceeded sport, so it must be trad. I don't think we can give you credit.
...
Unfortunately, some bad people just humiliate climber of 5.6 or 5.7 level who want to trad climb. There is no differences between trad and sport...but train for sport!!! They said that climbing began at 5.9. They talk as if they were the master of the rock, but are the first to critizise those trad climber who lead a route bottom up with no injury in a fall...even if the fall is of 40 feet like crack in the wood. There is no differences, but when a little girl of 12 years climbed half dome, they don't understand that trad is also fun and different in the way you learn your safety.
...

Who are these "bad" people? I've never met any 5.6 climber who was given shit for climbing trad.... must be a french thing...

And the little girl was left after the climb while her father retrieved the packs a few hours away... that is a bit off and has NOTHING to do with "trad", unless leaving minors alone in Grizzy country is part of being a true trad climber...

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 01, 2012, 10:39:46 PM
And the little girl was left after the climb while her father retrieved the packs a few hours away... that is a bit off and has NOTHING to do with "trad", unless leaving minors alone in Grizzy country is part of being a true trad climber...

 Bears are sleeping in winter??? Black bears, not grizzly

I bet the guy think that if he talked about leaving his daughter voluntarily, it will concentrate the critic where every body will understand it don't make any sens, but have a lot of scary impact!

The lake was clearly frozen and the bear will not awake after a while even if the weather is mild.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 02, 2012, 07:20:43 AM
Isa and I told an 8 yr old kid that if the bear came and tried to climb into our tree stand and eat us that we would dangle him down by the feet and the bear would eat him first because bears think little kids are more tasty then adults and that the bear would then have a full tummy and let us live.. does this make us bad sport climbers or bAD tard climbers?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 02, 2012, 04:18:57 PM
....and if the Bear eats you....if he does it for fun (a sporting good time) or does it to sustain life (traditional hunting methods) is it more respectable one way or the other? :-\
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 02, 2012, 05:45:58 PM
I'm thinking that our black bears are pretty small so by the time he finished eating Cody he would have had a full tummy and gone back into his cave for a nap. So probobly a Trad bear 8)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: meclimber on December 03, 2012, 05:21:14 PM
Does Champ read what he writes?  Or does he just write and write to torture us.  Does he know about sarcasm and irony.  I've had the pleasure of climbing in Quebec with some natives in the tre blant area and they seemed fine.  Hell, it was a mixed bolted and traditional crag.  Everyone seemed cool.  Neat little crag too.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 03, 2012, 06:51:29 PM
Maybe back to the point here-

I assume you have done the Seventh Seal thing so..

You can work the Avenger area in winter as well as the Airation Buttress. other good places for winter are -Albany Slabs and some places at Humphries.

i ahve done Future Shock in literally every month
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 03, 2012, 07:57:27 PM
Ya, but what about the bears?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 03, 2012, 08:33:24 PM
I've had the pleasure of climbing in Quebec with some natives in the tre blant area and they seemed fine.  Hell, it was a mixed bolted and traditional crag.  Everyone seemed cool.  Neat little crag too.

Yes we have very good climber and cliff too. One of my climbing partner for a while was a sport climber who climbed with Louis Babin, a name that many american climber know. He like to do sport route on bolt and it is fun to climb with him, althought my hands was not strong enought because carpal tunel problem.

The fact is that, because our trad season are short, three months, most climber are sport climber. We had three death this year, and the climbing community in quebec is not so important. We are seven millions of people and a very small part of them climb...and less of them trad climb.

We can say that an avalanche is impredictable, we can say that lightning doesn't happen often, we can say that at la pomme d'or the guy felt for...

When you dig to find an answer, you find that the ethic is often the reason of it. The year before, in Quebec, we also have two or three death!!!

You talk about torture because I asked you to write sport ethic question in sport section. I talk about death, I talk for a parent who don't understand what happened to her child, death in a climbing accident because they don't stay tie in to the anchor in a portaledge. She listened to those people.. I prefer to stop 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 03, 2012, 08:45:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDNmLPATW0s
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: ed_esmond on December 03, 2012, 09:48:05 PM
Ya, but what about the bears?

if they're skinny (no ham sammiches...):  i'd say they were "sport bears..."

if they're sporting beanies: i'd call 'um, "boulder bears."

ed "bearly there" e
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 03, 2012, 10:15:08 PM
Lets bring this back to the beginning and break it down for ya Luke:

"What would be some good routes for working via self-belayed toprope in the 5.9 to 5.10 range?

I'm looking to pick 2 trad routes, one slab/face and one crack or mixed--as projects for next year for days when I get stuck without a partner. Ideally both routes would have good enough pro to eventually be led. (Pro doesn't have to be perfect but nothing R for me.)"

1. This is an EXPERIENCED climber Looking for routes to work "FOR DAYS WHEN I GET STUCK W/OUT A PARTNER"
So In your eyes to stay true TRAD in this Circumstance he would need to Solo? Its in the TRAD section because he wants TRAD routes he can eventually lead with a partner present.

2. By TRing the route first, doesn't negate the fact that when he goes on the sharp end IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR.

3. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ACCIDENTS RESULTING IN DEATH.....it is someone looking to SAFELY hone there skills when they can't get out with someone else.


Oh yeah, keep smiting buddy. You're making my day 8)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 03, 2012, 10:43:42 PM
Is the practice of yoyo-ing to get an FA of a trad route adhering to sport ethics?
The person getting the 1st FA ground up could have TR'ed 5 feet of the route or 90 feet of it.  Where do you draw the line? 
Does this (http://www.mountainproject.com/v/airation/105920901) mean Airation might have been put up with "sport ethics"? 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 04, 2012, 09:44:01 AM
Is the practice of yoyo-ing to get an FA of a trad route adhering to sport ethics?
The person getting the 1st FA ground up could have TR'ed 5 feet of the route or 90 feet of it.  Where do you draw the line? 
Does this (http://www.mountainproject.com/v/airation/105920901) mean Airation might have been put up with "sport ethics"?

OUCH ! No, hangdogging was invented by ray Jardine in 1975, a year after Airation 8) Crimson Cringe in Yosemite was "Friended" anddogged for several days. Bachar flashed the second ascent with hexes after Jardine offered him the "secret " cams.

I always adhered to the -pull the rope strategy. no matter how much the route is seiged, the rope comes down for the pinkpoint.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 04, 2012, 10:15:08 AM
I always adhered to the -pull the rope strategy. no matter how much the route is seiged, the rope comes down for the pinkpoint.
Yup, no "sport ethics" for Strandman.  Good for you, I expected no less! :)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 04, 2012, 10:21:44 AM
Seems like back in the eightys it was totally kosher to keep the rope running through the top piece.  I read that a lot of those aid climbs that got freed @ the gunks they would send one guy up as far as he could go and then lower off. annother guy would get up there and get annother piece or two in and then Lynn would go up and finish the thing . Annother FFA in the books 8) I know we did that BINTD and no one seemed to mind. these days everyone is all uptight and you have to pull the rope..
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 04, 2012, 10:26:35 AM
I thought  that pulling the rope crap was sport ethics :-[ A true ham sammich, sausage, cheese eating wine drinking lederhosin whearing trad climber is all about shoulder stands, grabbing gear and upward progress to beat the storm back to the alpine hut in time to shnucksel the farmers daughter :)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: old_school on December 04, 2012, 10:49:51 AM
I thought  that pulling the rope crap was sport ethics :-[ A true ham sammich, sausage, cheese eating wine drinking lederhosin whearing trad climber is all about shoulder stands, grabbing gear and upward progress to beat the storm back to the alpine hut in time to shnucksel the farmers daughter :)
+1 for you Trad!   ;D
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Jeff on December 04, 2012, 02:29:29 PM
Ah yes a little schnucksel in the hayloft  ;)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 04, 2012, 02:42:57 PM
we started pulling the rope around '81 or so... having a top rope except for the last few feet seemed a bit much. True- many gunks pitches got done in siege style,  but i don't think actual hangdogging got going until later.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: M_Sprague on December 04, 2012, 04:58:10 PM
The sport climber doesn't wait to get back to the hayloft, but schnucksels at the crag  ;)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 04, 2012, 05:01:42 PM
I assume you have done the Seventh Seal thing so..


Nope never done it. Is that a good one for self-belayed toprope?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 04, 2012, 05:05:21 PM
I assume you have done the Seventh Seal thing so..


Nope never done it. Is that a good one for self-belayed toprope?

It's awesome, and you can grab Ethereal and play on Dunn's Diversion.... BUT you gotta get up the 5.5 Beezlebub corner to set it up...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 04, 2012, 05:53:19 PM
I assume you have done the Seventh Seal thing so..


Nope never done it. Is that a good one for self-belayed toprope?
A real nice route, easy for the grade and solid fimgers after the first move. I agree with Dman as well !!! Ethereal is one move hard seam, then very thin fingers. Dunn's is a decent 11B with a short crux. you CAN solo up the right side is it's dry, easy but don't fall off. otherwise the corner is pretty easy though often a bit damp.
One rope gets you up and off------------is the tree still there ??????

There are a couple of newer lines on the left side, but I have not done them
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: old_school on December 04, 2012, 08:27:48 PM

One rope gets you up and off------------is the tree still there ??????

There are a couple of newer lines on the left side, but I have not done them

The tree is there but is hollow & dead. I heard that a bolted anchor has been placed up there. I rapped on the tree last year and felt it move, glad to hear someone fixed an anchor before someone got seriously hurt over there. There is a nice 5.9 just to the right of the corner and an 11d/12 bolted line just to the right of that. I think that area is a good suggestion. Great climbs over there...albeit a smidge "polished"   ;)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Admin Al on December 04, 2012, 10:30:52 PM
I heard that a bolted anchor has been placed up there.

a bolt anchor on the Ethereal Buttress???? WTF - CHOP IT!!!! if the anchors on the pedestal on Thin Air were chopped, twice, this should be! it's heresy!
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 12:43:30 AM
I heard that a bolted anchor has been placed up there.

a bolt anchor on the Ethereal Buttress???? WTF - CHOP IT!!!! if the anchors on the pedestal on Thin Air were chopped, twice, this should be! it's heresy!

It's actually placed high on the wall above the actual buttress... you need to stand on tippy toes to clip it (from the dead tree)

What would you prefer Al? That tree was getting quite scary to rap off...  It doesn't change the character of the climb... but then again neither did the Bombardment anchor... but meh... I'm not getting into this shit at this hour...

OK maybe just a little bit...

This spot does not equal the pedestal with the amble easy gear anchors available... all that was there was the tree... and it was dangerous...

The only defense of the TA pedestal bolts was "it was in the guidebook for 30 years"... meh, glad those are gone, glad the new anchor is above Seventh Seal, still think my Bombardment Anchor* made sense...



* first tree dead, second one getting trampled (and far back from the end of the route). Fixed bolt rap anchor on the shelf after finishing the actual route would allow a single 60m rap back to the ground (and a visual on your partner following the route)... but nah... you should carry a 2nd rope and rap Ventilator or carry on to the top of the cliff in the true Cathedral Way... because tree anchors are more in the character of the cliff... unless they are dead... then a bolt anchor is ok... looking forward to that 2nd tree dying so I can put that anchor back...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 05, 2012, 08:04:19 AM
Dave. the downside of a bolted anchor @ the top of Bombardment is that every time you go out there to climb it there is a top ropeing gang camped out Gunks style . sometimes the road to hell is paved by good intentions.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 09:25:14 AM
Dave. the downside of a bolted anchor @ the top of Bombardment is that every time you go out there to climb it there is a top ropeing gang camped out Gunks style . sometimes the road to hell is paved by good intentions.

I don't think that would happen. For one there is no easy top access. And having a bolted anchor vrs a tree does not change the fact that top-ropers should yield to parties playing though.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 05, 2012, 09:27:51 AM
What should be done now at Ethereal is to topple the flake!!!! Down you go    >:(

Then you can link Seventh Seal to Looselips in one giant pitch--YEAH

That tree was dead 20 years ago
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 05, 2012, 09:32:48 AM
If it is a 30m 5.8 to bolted anchors gaurenteed it turns into a top rope camp out. Just the laws of nature....
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 05, 2012, 09:40:45 AM
If your willing to drive to VT, Wheeler Mt has some great areas for toprope soloing. My first recommendation is the Moosehead Crack area. You can easily hike around to the top anchors for that area. From the same anchor you can set up for Moosehead Crack (5.8 crack) and Kind Gesture (5.10b slab/Face) without reconfiguring your anchor or adding directionals. Both are about 90' and clean and safe for toproping alone.

Continue past the Moosehead anchors following the trail will bring you to another set of rings. From these anchors you can lower and toprope The Switch and The Apprentice (5.10's). A little more of a commitment since they are 180' and involve a small roof at half height. Sometimes i only rap down to above the roof and climb up from there (5.9 on both from this point).


Picked up the VT guidebook at Rock and Snow yesterday -- thanks for the suggestion that looks good.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: old_school on December 05, 2012, 09:58:17 AM
What should be done now at Ethereal is to topple the flake!!!! Down you go    >:(

Then you can link Seventh Seal to Looselips in one giant pitch--YEAH

That tree was dead 20 years ago

Oh hells yes!!!  ;D
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 04:53:18 PM
If it is a 30m 5.8 to bolted anchors gaurenteed it turns into a top rope camp out. Just the laws of nature....

top-ropers should yield to parties playing though...

In my 16 years of climbing I have never had a TR party not let me lead a route when I asked them politely... not once... it's basic courtesy (a more and more rare thing I suppose)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Jeff on December 05, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
It's not always that way in the Gunks or even in CT! I and others have been told--" we'll be moving to use that TR as soon as one more person takes a ride on this one-if you want to climb you should get here earlier!" At that I flipped the TR to the side and led the route-- I was tempted but didn't take the TR set up down and drop it from the top. >:(
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 05, 2012, 05:46:34 PM
I am often for bolted anchors  but that one is the start of a multi pitch trad climb. No need to come back down when you should be climbing through to the top.  Adding a bolted anchor there is garenteed to give it a single pitch feel and add to the traffic in a spot that can already be a logjam. The addition of all of those bolted anchors @ the gunks drasticly changed the nature of the climbing there. In the eightys the only place I Ever saw a top rope @ the Gunks was right arround the Uberfall. Went back around 2000 or so and there were gang top ropes everywhere..
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 05, 2012, 05:47:34 PM
I and others have been told--" we'll be moving to use that TR as soon as one more person takes a ride on this one-if you want to climb you should get here earlier!"
Yeah, this has happened to me too, at The Gunks and maybe even NH (memory's a little fuzzy).
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 05, 2012, 05:53:27 PM
Assuming there is no shortage of good gear placements for building an anchor, I think bolted anchors should be for rappel and saving trees.
I think a number of bolted anchors were put in at The Gunks to save what is left of the trees and vegetation on popular routes (e.g. Madame G).
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 06:25:35 PM
It's not always that way in the Gunks or even in CT! I and others have been told--" we'll be moving to use that TR as soon as one more person takes a ride on this one-if you want to climb you should get here earlier!" At that I flipped the TR to the side and led the route-- I was tempted but didn't take the TR set up down and drop it from the top. >:(

I do imagine people are more polite up here... I like the way you handled it, I would have loved to have been there...

I am often for bolted anchors  but that one is the start of a multi pitch trad climb. No need to come back down when you should be climbing through to the top...

By modern standards Bombardment is a single pitch 30m route. While historically you are linking the 1st pitch of Pleasant St by doing it this way, it's still only a 30m pitch. How is that a multi-pitch climb? Oh, you mean I can 3rd class for 200 feet to Upper Refuse and that's the only way I should climb Bombardment? Come on, it's an excellent climb by itself, you can go to Cannon and bang out Slow & Easy and rap off a bolted anchor with no one saying "You should go to the top!"...

Assuming there is no shortage of good gear placements for building an anchor, I think bolted anchors should be for rappel and saving trees.
I think a number of bolted anchors were put in at The Gunks to save what is left of the trees and vegetation on popular routes (e.g. Madame G).


There is no good gear anchor anywhere near the end of Bombardment. Historically they used the tree closer to the edge, which has been killed, now we all use the one 30 feet back from the edge... until it dies... but I went down this road in 2004...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 06:30:30 PM
We are so off the original topic now but I dug up that thread from 2005...

It feels good to read shit you said 7 years ago and still feel the same way about it...

http://www.neclimbs.com/SMF_2/index.php?topic=1402.0
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 05, 2012, 06:51:08 PM
Fuckin' Bolts... Fuckin' trees,,,, 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 05, 2012, 07:51:47 PM
I usually use Bombardment to get to the Book or Black lung. put a bolted anchor there and you guys will be useing it to teach top ropeing all day.  not every 30 meter pitch needs to be gangroped.

The problem @ the gunks is that they put a bunch of bolted anchors at the top of 1st pitches. this completly changed the dynamic of those climbs turning many of them into top rope magnets.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 08:00:20 PM
Sorry Tradman... pure speculation on your part. Cathedral is not the Gunks. Numbers have gone down IMO since I moved here in 2001 (thank you Rumney).

I have only been turned away from Bombardment once due to people just starting it, and I climb it a dozen times a season. It only takes 30 minutes or so to climb it, so it is rarely an issue.

"teaching toproping"? Please... we do that at Square Ledge in Pinkham... Bombardment would be a horrible climb to "teach toproping"...

If anything a bolted anchor there would see any traffic on the route actually move faster, as they do almost on any route so equipped...

Bottom line, the existing tree anchor will die in the next 20 years, and then the bolts will go back in... and stay
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 05, 2012, 08:02:07 PM
Probobly and I will be fine with that..
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 08:02:55 PM
P.S. Again, around here, we yield the right of way to people leading... so on the off chance someone feels like hang dogging Bombardment all day, few of us would not politely at first ask permission to climb through, or if need be resort to "Jeff tactics"
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 05, 2012, 08:05:47 PM
Not that it matters if I am fine with it or not... i guess i look at it differently not being a local. I usually do not drive 3hrs to do single pitch climbs. I never even stopped at the top of Bombardment. simply hiked on through untill I run out of rope. If i lived there and wanted to get out after work It would be a different story..
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 08:07:24 PM
If i lived there and wanted to get out after work It would be a different story..

That's exactly it... silly to run up there at 7pm on a nice July afternoon for a quick lap with 2 ropes to get down...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 05, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
Even worse to head out there @ 5:00pm thinking you will cruise Bombardment to the Book only to find a rope hanging and 4 people waiting to climb.....

Around here pretty much anything 10 and under that is TRable can have a guided group on it at any given time.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 05, 2012, 08:22:56 PM
Even worse to head out there @ 5:00pm thinking you will cruise Bombardment to the Book only to find a rope hanging and 4 people waiting to climb.....

Around here pretty much anything 10 and under that is TRable can have a guided group on it at any given time.

Guided groups after 5pm? You guys need a good brewery nearby...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 05, 2012, 08:27:24 PM
We need more bigger cliffs!
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: snowleopard on December 05, 2012, 11:08:09 PM
Bastards!
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 05, 2012, 11:44:15 PM
Tradman, I have been thinking about what you wrote about more TR at The Gunks due to bolted anchors.  I am not sure the dynamics changed solely due to bolted anchors.  There have always been a lot of "sling anchors" at The Gunks; even back in the 90's you would see a substantial number of TR gangs beyond the Uberfalls.  For example, Ant's Line and Ent's Line, some .11 near Airy Aria, The Sting, To Be or Not to Be, Bird Brain, Slamming The Salmon, and on and on.  I think the change you noticed might also has to do with the attitude of the climbers who go to The Gunks these days.  Multi-pitch just seems too much work for some. :(
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 06, 2012, 07:16:03 AM
The bolted anchors certainly facilitated that attitude on more pitches. I liked it better there when you you climbed to the top and hiked off to an easier route and down soloed it...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 06, 2012, 08:48:26 AM
Don't get me wrong.  I like good anchors and have even set many of my climbs up so that you can get down with a single 60M rope. I do however feel that when you add a mid point anchor to a climb that is traditionaly climbed to the top that you can not help but to change the nature and feel of the climb and the traffic patterns of that climb.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 06, 2012, 09:03:14 AM
Tradman I don't disagree with many of your points regarding bolting and fixed protection. I just find it odd that you're making this particular argument about Bombardment. I mean there are no bolts there right now and I would say far fewer than 50% of current ascents end up going the top of the cliff. I've done it a few times and have always rapped off, and twice we've waited for the previous party to rap before starting. (lolz sample size)

I believe it's a stretch to categorize that particular climb as one traditionally climbed to the top.

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 06, 2012, 09:14:51 AM
My last few posts were more about the gunks though I have always topped out when climbing Bombardment.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: frik on December 06, 2012, 09:20:23 AM
JB.... eight pages so far, how many climbs have been offered which remotely meet your original criteria?
just curious.

also: why exactly are we against trees dying at cathedral?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 06, 2012, 09:29:38 AM
More dead trees = more sunshine = rock dries faster  :D
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 06, 2012, 10:06:17 AM
That was the south Butt in the '80's ! 'cept the trees were not dead.

You COULD do another route if someone in on something you want to do   ???

How about "never climb beneath another party >"
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 06, 2012, 06:03:00 PM
1. This is an EXPERIENCED climber Looking for routes to work "FOR DAYS WHEN I GET STUCK W/OUT A PARTNER"
So In your eyes to stay true TRAD in this Circumstance he would need to Solo? Its in the TRAD section because he wants TRAD routes he can eventually lead with a partner present.

2. By TRing the route first, doesn't negate the fact that when he goes on the sharp end IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR.

3. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ACCIDENTS RESULTING IN DEATH.....it is someone looking to SAFELY hone there skills when they can't get out with someone else.

1- Experience from the bottom up. There is a way to safely climb a route by setting an anchor at the bottom and self belay himself without the necessity of a partner. SA did it on the prow as he made the second ascent of it and took a wimper of 100 feets. He had a self belay.

2- IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR: But it won't be lead in the traditional ethic. This is the problem. using a bolt or a cam that you already know the size and the direction to place it you just need a little bit more stamina. When you don't know where to place the pro, you have to stop, make an evaluation of the move, think at the distance you are going to fall, decide the size of the pro in a way that you will have some thing higher to place, etc... This is what a trad climber is accostumed to do.

3- To have an accident, you need three thing: a bad situation, a skill climber and a mistake. Bad situation, it is happening every times; skill climber at top rope, it is like some one who built a house...if his job is to brought the brick from the truck to the worker who will place it, he is not very good, a mistake is choosing the wrong pro...sport climber use bolt and do the route on top rope to know what to use, a trad climber will do aid climbing; stress to be kill, sport climber often don't think at stressfull situation, trad climber increase slowly there level by resolving stressfull situation...a little bit at a time; rest place, in top rope, you head as fast as you can to the top to take the lead, etc.

In resume: sport climber are often at the wrong place at the wrong moment... it is why there is more accident in trad.

Verdon, some place in the west of america, on bolt, they are amasing. Style, fluidity, etc, are all caracteristic of sport climber.

But, they are at the wrong place at the wrong moment

that cause death, not minor accident.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 06, 2012, 06:46:13 PM

In resume: sport climber are often at the wrong place at the wrong moment... it is why there is more accident in trad.


You kill me. That makes NO SENSE!
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 06, 2012, 07:04:10 PM
1. This is an EXPERIENCED climber Looking for routes to work "FOR DAYS WHEN I GET STUCK W/OUT A PARTNER"
So In your eyes to stay true TRAD in this Circumstance he would need to Solo? Its in the TRAD section because he wants TRAD routes he can eventually lead with a partner present.

2. By TRing the route first, doesn't negate the fact that when he goes on the sharp end IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR.

3. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ACCIDENTS RESULTING IN DEATH.....it is someone looking to SAFELY hone there skills when they can't get out with someone else.

1- Experience from the bottom up. There is a way to safely climb a route by setting an anchor at the bottom and self belay himself without the necessity of a partner. SA did it on the prow as he made the second ascent of it and took a wimper of 100 feets. He had a self belay.

2- IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR: But it won't be lead in the traditional ethic. This is the problem. using a bolt or a cam that you already know the size and the direction to place it you just need a little bit more stamina. When you don't know where to place the pro, you have to stop, make an evaluation of the move, think at the distance you are going to fall, decide the size of the pro in a way that you will have some thing higher to place, etc... This is what a trad climber is accostumed to do.

3- To have an accident, you need three thing: a bad situation, a skill climber and a mistake. Bad situation, it is happening every times; skill climber at top rope, it is like some one who built a house...if his job is to brought the brick from the truck to the worker who will place it, he is not very good, a mistake is choosing the wrong pro...sport climber use bolt and do the route on top rope to know what to use, a trad climber will do aid climbing; stress to be kill, sport climber often don't think at stressfull situation, trad climber increase slowly there level by resolving stressfull situation...a little bit at a time; rest place, in top rope, you head as fast as you can to the top to take the lead, etc.

In resume: sport climber are often at the wrong place at the wrong moment... it is why there is more accident in trad.

Verdon, some place in the west of america, on bolt, they are amasing. Style, fluidity, etc, are all caracteristic of sport climber.

But, they are at the wrong place at the wrong moment

that cause death, not minor accident.

(http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/1176177_o.gif)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 06, 2012, 07:06:41 PM
(http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp140/resonator_21/Gifs/arnoldsmokingpot.gif)

Champ hard at work formulating his next post.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 06, 2012, 07:48:42 PM

2- IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR: But it won't be lead in the traditional ethic. This is the problem. using a bolt or a cam that you already know the size and the direction to place it you just need a little bit more stamina. When you don't know where to place the pro, you have to stop, make an evaluation of the move, think at the distance you are going to fall, decide the size of the pro in a way that you will have some thing higher to place, etc... This is what a trad climber is accostumed to do.
So if I understand correctly, what you are saying, Champ, is onsight lead attempt from the ground up every time is the only way to adhere to  your "trad ethics".  If you were to strictly adhere to this rule all the time (ie no top-roping, no headpoint, no working a route on lead), then good luck to ever leading .10+ PG-13 and harder/scarier clean consistently.  Perhaps that is not an issue for you because of your carpal tunnel problem (which you have made common knowledge here).
But please do not try to make others, who seek to better themselves through widely accepted training means, feel that they are somehow cheating and violating your unique interpretation of 'trad ethics', whatever that is.
There I said it.  Blasphemy perhaps so flame away!!
 

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: eyebolter on December 06, 2012, 07:50:14 PM
JB.... eight pages so far, how many climbs have been offered which remotely meet your original criteria?
just curious.

also: why exactly are we against trees dying at cathedral?

Dead trees = dirt running down route.

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 06, 2012, 09:15:30 PM
So if I understand correctly, what you are saying, Champ, is onsight lead attempt from the ground up every time is the only way to adhere to  your "trad ethics".  of 'trad ethics', whatever that is.
There I said it.  Blasphemy perhaps so flame away!!

No. What I said is: it is not because you climb with natural protection that you have a trad ethic!!!

In other terms: if you are a painter, you can be proud to paint a house and every body will be amaze by the decoration. it is a full job very motivating.

If you know how to make concrete, woods to make floor and roof, plumbing, electricity, painting...you can built a house.

A painter will do three houses in the same time as the other will built one house.

What you said is: because a painter take a hammer in his hands he can say that he built a house!!!

True sport climber as like a painter: Lots of style, stamina and skill in climbing technique. They take a stopper and they claim that they are trad!!!

Skill to place protection, skill to keep there nerve low, skill to evluate the weather (when I began to climb, forecast was not trustable in mountain), skill to evaluate the progression of the party on the cliff, skill to evaluate the danger, skill to save your leader if he was injure in a fall,

Trad climber admit that you create a new style and that it is rewarding. One bad side is, today, when you tell what it really happened in an accident, the family think that you insult them and they don't want that accident in north american mountaineering published the reason of the accident. They think that a painter can built a house, and when they see that it is two kind of expertise...they don't understand.

In my opinion, you are creating people who think that they are good without training different skill. The story of the bear at half dome with the 12 years old girl is very caracteristic of a person talking about some think that he don't know (biology of bears) and trying to make people react against a futur very good trad climber. 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 06, 2012, 09:20:40 PM
So if I understand correctly, what you are saying, Champ, is onsight lead attempt from the ground up every time is the only way to adhere to  your "trad ethics".  of 'trad ethics', whatever that is.
There I said it.  Blasphemy perhaps so flame away!!

No. What I said is: it is not because you climb with natural protection that you have a trad ethic!!!

In other terms: if you are a painter, you can be proud to paint a house and every body will be amaze by the decoration. it is a full job very motivating.

If you know how to make concrete, woods to make floor and roof, plumbing, electricity, painting...you can built a house.

A painter will do three houses in the same time as the other will built one house.

What you said is: because a painter take a hammer in his hands he can say that he built a house!!!

True sport climber as like a painter: Lots of style, stamina and skill in climbing technique. They take a stopper and they claim that they are trad!!!

Skill to place protection, skill to keep there nerve low, skill to evluate the weather (when I began to climb, forecast was not trustable in mountain), skill to evaluate the progression of the party on the cliff, skill to evaluate the danger, skill to save your leader if he was injure in a fall,

Trad climber admit that you create a new style and that it is rewarding. One bad side is, today, when you tell what it really happened in an accident, the family think that you insult them and they don't want that accident in north american mountaineering published the reason of the accident. They think that a painter can built a house, and when they see that it is two kind of expertise...they don't understand.

In my opinion, you are creating people who think that they are good without training different skill. The story of the bear at half dome with the 12 years old girl is very caracteristic of a person talking about some think that he don't know (biology of bears) and trying to make people react against a futur very good trad climber.

(http://images.wikia.com/thehungergames/images/2/22/Larrydavid-seinfeld.gif)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 06, 2012, 09:45:26 PM
So....I have lead Bombardment. Since I followed it before I lead it....it was a sport climb. ??? so lets pretend I didn't follow it first and I just lead it.....if I lead it again it has magically become a sport climb?? well fuck me then, right? :-[ guess i should toss a Sharma poster on my wall.


Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Fat City Pancakes on December 06, 2012, 09:47:52 PM
All of the Luke-bashing with derogatory comments, pics, and gifs is more annoying than any perceived problems you have with his posting.  You do realize that you provoke the very responses that you claim to hate, right. Is this third grade, or worse, rc.com?

Luke's opinions are his own, and he's entitled to them.  How you react to them is your business, and says a lot more about you.  Obviously there is a language/translation issue; accept that you may not fully understand his true meaning.  Argue the point, not the man.

I can tell enough from Luke's posts to say that I would rope up with him anytime.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: OldEric on December 06, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
There is definitely some truth to the fact that LL is a thoughtful and skilled climber.  He also is inarticulate above and beyond the language barrier - undoubtedly somewhat intentional.  He aspires to the simplest and purest of trad ethics - which ironically most of the denizens here (queue up John Strand for example) seem to believe in.  But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 06, 2012, 10:44:57 PM
LL, I like your painter analogy; it illustrates your point.
People create what they become.  I do not have that power :)

But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.
This is what I think as well.

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 06, 2012, 11:01:16 PM
I think the issue that most people have with Lucky, is the skipping record rhetoric in posts where they  don't apply. The original thread was " 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope" not "Judge me on my ethics of climbing  5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope"
The original poster was looking for traditionally protected routes so he posted in the trad section.
If I go to Rumney and ask anyone for classic trad lines to climb, a lot of people would look at me like i had 6 heads.

Yes there is somewhat of a language barrier. Some posts make sense and other times they are harder to decipher. Having met Lucky one day when he was climbing with Base (on Ventelator?) I can say he seemed like a nice guy....i just think the same old song and dance wears thin on people when it doesn't apply to the original topic at hand.



Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 07, 2012, 06:37:52 AM
Luke's opinions are his own, and he's entitled to them.  How you react to them is your business, and says a lot more about you. 

My responses basically say something along the lines of, hey I can recognize a troll despite using the subterfuge of English as a second language.

The fact that you believe he's not trolling says something about you too.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 07, 2012, 06:53:08 AM
There is definitely some truth to the fact that LL is a thoughtful and skilled climber.  He also is inarticulate above and beyond the language barrier - undoubtedly somewhat intentional.  He aspires to the simplest and purest of trad ethics - which ironically most of the denizens here (queue up John Strand for example) seem to believe in.  But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Strandman ever being critical of somebodies chosen tactics provided they are on virgin ground. He obviously holds ground up bold ascents in high regard, and has only asked that people respect the method of first ascent (i.e. - no retrobolting, etc.)

Champs responses in this thread are ridiculous and are flat out trolling. Or he's stupid. Those are the only two explanations.

Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something.

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Admin Al on December 07, 2012, 07:32:11 AM
Quote from: DMan
Bottom line, the existing tree anchor will die in the next 20 years, and then the bolts will go back in... and stay

Probobly and I will be fine with that..

yeah, because you'll probably be dead... LOL
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Jeff on December 07, 2012, 07:38:01 AM
 " Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

So far the most cogent statement of the point of the past 8 pages!! I couldn't agree more. Now let's just climb, without judging style, UNLESS that style is misrepresented-- then let the slings and arrows fly.  :-X
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: old_school on December 07, 2012, 08:26:29 AM
" Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

So far the most cogent statement of the point of the past 8 pages!! I couldn't agree more. Now let's just climb, without judging style, UNLESS that style is misrepresented-- then let the slings and arrows fly.  :-X

+1 Jeff  ;)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 07, 2012, 08:50:34 AM
" Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

So far the most cogent statement of the point of the past 8 pages!! I couldn't agree more. Now let's just climb, without judging style, UNLESS that style is misrepresented-- then let the slings and arrows fly.  :-X


I actually shouldn't have even qualified that statement with "trad climbers" as I believe most sport climbers feel the same way as well. (At least as far as onsighting anyway. Most cutting edge sport routes wouldn't be possible to do ground up.)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 07, 2012, 09:21:09 AM
" Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

So far the most cogent statement of the point of the past 8 pages!! I couldn't agree more. Now let's just climb, without judging style, UNLESS that style is misrepresented-- then let the slings and arrows fly.  :-X

Jeff comes through again!  +1 and THANK YOU.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 07, 2012, 09:40:00 AM
little confused on what you mean there JB about not possible to do cutting edge sport climbs GU.  If the route is established it is often easier to to work the bolts GU than try to get a TR set on it and if you are equiping the route, GU is often easier for severly overhanging terrain than the top down approach.   
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 07, 2012, 10:14:02 AM
I just meant you can't really onsite ground up sport climbs if you have to put the bolts in first. But for all subsequent ascents yes I think sport climbers also value onsighting more highly than redpointing. 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 07, 2012, 12:08:43 PM
I think I'm a sport climber   ???
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 07, 2012, 12:25:19 PM
I think I'm a sport climber   ???
Resistance is futile! Jeri Ryan is definitely a sport climber. :)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 07, 2012, 12:26:35 PM
IF it's Ok with Eric   :)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: eyebolter on December 07, 2012, 02:20:47 PM
" Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "



Minor disagree...


The best style is a ground-up first ascent, as the route has been cleaned and the holds are marked with chalk in your example. Not the same as the FA.   No shoes is even better, hard for me to to see how rubber is not aid (though I do use shoes, at least sometimes).

I have barefoot onsighted 12a in the Red, but it is hard to say that was any great accomplishment as the route was steep, the bolts were many, the draws were hanging, and the holds were all mapped out in chalk.

Henry Barber's barefoot first ascent of "Dean's Day Off" 12a, would be my example of a route done in the "best style." I don't think that anything has been done since then that is harder in absolute terms.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: OldEric on December 07, 2012, 03:01:52 PM
IF it's Ok with Eric   :)

John - you are  equivalent to THREE sport climbers (in more ways then 1)    :)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 07, 2012, 05:53:00 PM
  But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.

I don't blame any body because he didn't follow pure trad ethic.

In Quebec, we have the english and french language. Assimilation is done by people who said that more people talk both language and it is not important the language you talk. Speak english, so every people in the world will understand you, it is the language of the money, etc. Immigrant just want to speak english, some people think like them and, slowly but surely, assimilation is done.

We talk about Patrick Edlinger recently. He told that it was not acceptable to work a route before, but more climber begin to think that we most do it. He is the father of sport climber, or the one who begin the mediatisation of that kind of ethic. I just asked those we the same ethic, an he is a respectable climber, to write it in sport section so people will understand that it is different than trad. That it is not acceptable to work or route in the tradition of trad climbing.

Even if I understand the critique an even if I climbed recompense many times. There is always some thing different...me!. Actually I feel older than 5.10, but... So bottom up as much as you can.

Example of exercise. In second, try to climb bombardment, but stay always on the left side of the crack!!!!
Lead and try to take as few pro as it is to stay safe!!! There is so much to do.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 07, 2012, 06:41:51 PM
  But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.

I don't blame any body because he didn't follow pure trad ethic.

In Quebec, we have the english and french language. Assimilation is done by people who said that more people talk both language and it is not important the language you talk. Speak english, so every people in the world will understand you, it is the language of the money, etc. Immigrant just want to speak english, some people think like them and, slowly but surely, assimilation is done.

We talk about Patrick Edlinger recently. He told that it was not acceptable to work a route before, but more climber begin to think that we most do it. He is the father of sport climber, or the one who begin the mediatisation of that kind of ethic. I just asked those we the same ethic, an he is a respectable climber, to write it in sport section so people will understand that it is different than trad. That it is not acceptable to work or route in the tradition of trad climbing.

Even if I understand the critique an even if I climbed recompense many times. There is always some thing different...me!. Actually I feel older than 5.10, but... So bottom up as much as you can.

Example of exercise. In second, try to climb bombardment, but stay always on the left side of the crack!!!!
Lead and try to take as few pro as it is to stay safe!!! There is so much to do.

Regarding the bolded, you're just plain wrong. It doesn't get any more trad than English gritstone and they've been toproping and headpointing (though they didn't call it headpointing then) gritstone since the 1800's.

There are no fixed rules save those you create for yourself provided you are honest about how you've accomplished something.

If I wanted to waste my time, I could create a list of hundreds of hard core trad climbers who work/have worked routes on toprope.

In summary, piss off with your judgements.   
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 07, 2012, 07:33:38 PM
"That it is not acceptable to work or route in the tradition of trad climbing."
In this day and age, this is probably no longer the case.  One can't be totally shackled to the past! 

"There are no fixed rules save those you create for yourself provided you are honest about how you've accomplished something.".
In this context, I would agree.  Set the bar high for yourself but try to not IMPOSE your values and judgement on others who, though not totally in agreement with you and your values, are equally justified in their views and opinions.

I used to get annoyed when climbers would equate redpoint with pinkpoint.  I am past that now; it was a losing battle.  But in my own climbing log, I make the distinction (OS, Flash, RP, PP).  Yeah, TR does not count in my book but I am not going to be judgmental! when it comes to others :)


Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 07, 2012, 07:41:04 PM
JBrochu, it's hard enough reading Champs epic posts. Could you not quote the entire post of his? It eats up so much thread space as if is... In the situation where you bolded the sentence you wanted to respond to just delete the rest.  Adding "..." Before & after indicates you cut out the quote.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 07, 2012, 07:52:05 PM
Climbing police and posting police :-[
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 07, 2012, 07:55:00 PM
... posting police...

Like this :)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 07, 2012, 08:40:21 PM
But in my own climbing log, I make the distinction (OS, Flash, RP, PP).  Yeah, TR does not count in my book but I am not going to be judgmental! when it comes to others :)

What difference does it make if you redpoint/headpoint a route after working it with a partner versus working it on toprope?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 07, 2012, 08:41:46 PM
IF it's Ok with Eric   :)

John - you are  equivalent to THREE sport climbers (in more ways then 1)    :)
[/quot

Maybe ! BUt I have 3 members of team Chinos in my house right now !   :-\
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 07, 2012, 11:27:19 PM
""There are no fixed rules save those you create for yourself provided you are honest about how you've accomplished something."

No fixe rules, but guideline to understand what is trad and what is sport. And a little bit of honesty for new climbers who want to understand and associate the guideline to there practice and choose by themselve what they want to do.

personally, you go to a sport cliff, you bring your quick draws... climb on bolt...Oh! it is a crack!!! no bolt. So you turned back to your car, get out the packsack, get out the gear, bring them to the cliff and finally climbed twenty feet of 'trad'. For me, it is not fair. Bolt that crack.

Twenty years before, I listen to a discussion about using bolt or not at poko-monshine. All the bolt was placed bottom up on lead. So, bolt was there before sport?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: triguy on December 08, 2012, 07:45:07 AM
What? Bolt a crack just because there are other bolts on the climb? How is that teaching someone to be better prepared for a future climb? A you think that because the leader may not be prepared it is the fault of the first ascentionist and that the climb should be altered for eternity to make it easier for someone to do gound up? WTF?

I seriously hope either my fist cup of coffee has not kicked in or something was lost when you ran this through the translator.

This is an all time low for you.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2012, 08:09:16 AM
personally, you go to a sport cliff, you bring your quick draws... climb on bolt...Oh! it is a crack!!! no bolt. So you turned back to your car, get out the packsack, get out the gear, bring them to the cliff and finally climbed twenty feet of 'trad'. For me, it is not fair. Bolt that crack.
This is an argument which has occurred and will continue to come up at many sport crags; do you bolt a crack or leave the route a mixed one?  Of course opinions and local ethics differ area to area.  Just go with the flow, especially if you are a visitor.  Most guide books do a good job highlighting mixed routes at a predominantly sport crag.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 08, 2012, 10:02:43 AM
Of course opinions and local ethics differ area to area. 

I like the used of that words!!! ethic

If we go to cathedral and there is more people who want to bolt than to trad climb,,,,those bad people begin by fixing ger, bolt anchor and when a sport climber using cam and stoper felt...you point out that it is the fault of trad climber and we must place bolt. you are not fair and respectfull of more than fifty years of history. We most keep the trad activity as much as we most keep park clean of major human's intervention.

Reality is that sport dont train the same things than trad. A driver of an automatic car can be dangerous if he drive a standard car becausse he dont know how to shift the gear. Having a clutch does it means that you are a manual driver?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 08, 2012, 10:47:59 AM
is this ground hog day?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: danf on December 08, 2012, 12:18:57 PM
...Having a clutch does it means that you are a manual driver?
I guess so.  Just like having a brush in hand means you are a painter at that given moment.  I'm a landscaper by trade and training, but I can work concrete and frame a house if I had to, does that make me a sport climber or a toproper?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 08, 2012, 12:34:29 PM
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31524127.jpg)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: ed_esmond on December 08, 2012, 01:26:17 PM
so, what happened to the bears?

my neighbor has a picture of a black bear sitting in his "plow truck."  it's an automatic, maybe he can't drive a clutch....

ed

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 08, 2012, 01:31:22 PM
so, what happened to the bears?

my neighbor has a picture of a black bear sitting in his "plow truck."  it's an automatic, maybe he can't drive a clutch....

ed
Further proof that its a sport bear.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 08, 2012, 02:32:42 PM
personally, you go to a sport cliff, you bring your quick draws... climb on bolt...Oh! it is a crack!!! no bolt. So you turned back to your car, get out the packsack, get out the gear, bring them to the cliff and finally climbed twenty feet of 'trad'. For me, it is not fair. Bolt that crack.
This is an argument which has occurred and will continue to come up at many sport crags; do you bolt a crack or leave the route a mixed one?  Of course opinions and local ethics differ area to area.  Just go with the flow, especially if you are a visitor.  Most guide books do a good job highlighting mixed routes at a predominantly sport crag.

This is an argument that shouldn’t exist IMO. You should NEVER bolt a crack because it is at a predominant sport climbing crag... the idea that the crag developers are somehow responsible for an ill-prepared climber getting hurt because he thought the crack would be bolted is ridiculous...

""There are no fixed rules save those you create for yourself provided you are honest about how you've accomplished something."
...For me, it is not fair. Bolt that crack...

Not fair... right...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 08, 2012, 06:43:53 PM
Let's say this thread has lost it's way-

Should you ever bolt a bear ???

Or a Velociraptor ???

How about pins in Deer ???

I need a drink
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: triguy on December 08, 2012, 07:01:41 PM
Al needs to lock this thread and end the pain!
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 08, 2012, 07:02:53 PM
I think it should go 30 pages,,,, of complete nonsense
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Admin Al on December 08, 2012, 07:33:38 PM
Al needs to lock this thread and end the pain!

LOL...

but it's fun...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 08, 2012, 07:45:59 PM
best thing we got going these days w/ no snow/winter.  I Want to see a real trad bear 8)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
Trad, I think Groundhog Day came early!

DMan, we are not talking bolting a predominantly crack climb.  Rather, if there is a short crack section on otherwise a facey sport route, do you put a bolt in rather than have the leader place one or two pieces?  Examples that I can think of right now is Sky Pilot (got to place gear) and Retro Spade (two opposed and fixed nuts the last time I looked) at Rumney. 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 08, 2012, 09:12:11 PM
For me it completly depends on the feel of the climb. predominantly sport climb with one or two gear placements and I am developing it top down then chances are it is going to be a sport climb. If I put it up GU chances are it will stay mixed. If on the otherhand it it is mostly sport TD project but has an obvious trad feature that takes several gear placements in a row  I will make it a mixed climb. I put up a 100ft 10d that is all sport except for the last 15 ft was a beautifull  left faceing corner with a finger crack in the back of it. I simply could not make myself bolt that crack. The corner is only 5.7 on a 10d. I carried a yellow BD TCU the first few times I led it but none of us has ever placed the piece. You do NOT want to fall there but your Not going to fall there if you got that far up it and I tell people that it is an optional gear placement.    My climb. My rules......
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2012, 09:16:59 PM
Very sensible, Trad.  Sounds like a nice climb, love the 100-foot part.  I got to make it out to climb in VT sometime.
Your climb, your rules, damn straight!!
RRG has quite a few sport routes that have "optional gear placements". We skip them for the most part to add a little spice. :)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 08, 2012, 09:17:58 PM
Seems like most of the mixed climbs @ Rumny grew more bolts. No Money Down, etc..  Many years ago I used to bring a rack to Rumny.  I matured a bit and just bring draws now on the rare occasions that I get over there.. When in Rome :-*
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2012, 09:30:56 PM
Ha, I too first led NMD when it had only one bolt!  I led it a bunch of times last year on all bolts.  Quite a different feel I have to admit. 
Masterpiece also got a low bolt added.  I used to place a brown tricam as the first piece.  Now I just stand tall and clip the added glue-in for the 1st piece.  About the same both ways.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: ed_esmond on December 08, 2012, 10:28:44 PM
...I Want to see a real trad bear...

as long as we don't have to see a bare trad...

i know it's tres* "traditional" to climb trad routes naked as a jaybird, (think: vulgarians in the gunks and the newest vermont climbing guide with a photo of gratuitous "full frontal" nudity.)

the reality of seeing most "trad" climbers naked is more than tres* disturbing.(imagine john strand, naked, run out, on a slab: the only rational response could be: "oh the humanity....")

ed e

* french for "very..." (being bilingual just so "luckyluc" won't feel like he's been "assimilated...." )

ps. "posting police:" did i get the "..." thing correct?   
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: Admin Al on December 08, 2012, 10:54:20 PM
Masterpiece also got a low bolt added.  I used to place a brown tricam as the first piece.  Now I just stand tall and clip the added glue-in for the 1st piece.  About the same both ways.

that's interesting... I used to do it years ago with no piece, then I wised up and started using a cam. it definitely is better with a piece of pro. [grin] adding teh bolt is probably the right thing considering it's Rumney after all...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 09, 2012, 10:41:19 AM
...I Want to see a real trad bear...

ps. "posting police:" did i get the "..." thing correct?

Perfect
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 09, 2012, 10:47:32 AM
Here's your trad bear
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: apbt1976 on December 09, 2012, 11:14:46 AM
Is not Champ our local "trad bear". See link below if you are confused.

For the record i am not a homaphob not even a little. I can take  joke and keep things in perspective. If my joke offends i apologize in advance...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_%28gay_culture%29

best thing we got going these days w/ no snow/winter.  I Want to see a real trad bear 8)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 09, 2012, 11:34:59 AM
...I Want to see a real trad bear...

ps. "posting police:" did i get the "..." thing correct?

Perfect


WTF you quoted the entire damn thing in your response! The tubes are now broken! 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 09, 2012, 05:05:56 PM
For the record i am not a homaphob not even a little. I can take  joke and keep things in perspective. If my joke offends i apologize in advance...

Me and my woman not very appreciate that kind of joke

It is irrespectfull and the fact that you appologize is really that you want to offend other people

Ounce you don't have any argument to discuss in a trad secttion, humiliating other with false rumor is your exact value
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 09, 2012, 05:10:50 PM
For me it completly depends on the feel of the climb. predominantly sport climb.....If I put it up GU chances are it will stay mixed. If on the otherhand it it is mostly sport TD project but has an obvious trad feature that takes several gear placements in a row  I will make it a mixed climb......My climb. My rules......

And if it is a trad cliff where every body respect and like the ethic of trad????

On the murder wall, SA protect the route with one bolt at the end of the traverse. It was trad route and aid route too. What is the differences in the ethic with sport?
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 09, 2012, 05:52:06 PM
If it is a trad cliff I will do the FA ground up but I will fix it if nessicary. If the bolts are not in the right places due to whatever reasons  I will fix or add bolts to my own route. I will replace fixed pins with bolts if I deem it nessicary to make a 5 star climb. Heck I might even switch out the pins for bolt simply because I need the pins for annother project. My Climb= My rules

According to our silly Rules the FA owns the climb for life.  (unless of course it is an aid line in which case ownership transfers to the party that frees the line) I take the FA responsibility very seriously and try to make the best climb possible so that those who come after me do not have to deal with a hack job..
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 09, 2012, 06:18:37 PM
Damn right Trad- my climb, my rules. you don't like it, go do your own route

Remember LL thr f/a of Mordor Wall was well before sport/trad.. back when it was called "CLIMBING"
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 09, 2012, 06:48:52 PM
and a bunch of bolts have been added for free climbing attempts. free trumps aid so that is legal....
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 09, 2012, 07:37:44 PM
Remember LL thr f/a of Mordor Wall was well before sport/trad.. back when it was called "CLIMBING"
Damn straight. 
Remember that a significant number of 'classic' trad routes in NH and at The Gunks were first ascended with a little aid and only done free (FFA) later.  Times change, values and ethics evolve.  Do you use SLCD?  Not too long ago, some consider that cheating.  Just go climb something and be honest to yourself how and why you did the climb!  Way more important to be true to your own values and be at peace with them than to convince others!!

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 09, 2012, 07:49:29 PM
 trad routes everywhere were done with aid BINTD. weather it be the shoulder stand of full blown standing in aiders it was all about upward progress.  Heck I don't even feel like I am truely trad climbing unless I am standing in aiders hand drilling :-*
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 09, 2012, 09:46:53 PM
and a bunch of bolts have been added for free climbing attempts. free trumps aid so that is legal....

Adding bolts to free a route is generally complete bullshit
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 09, 2012, 10:00:15 PM
It might be BS INYOP but it's how it's done.   Horses are out of the barn on that one....
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 09, 2012, 11:01:03 PM
If it is a trad cliff I will do the FA ground up but I will fix it if nessicary. If the bolts are not in the right places due to whatever reasons  I will fix or add bolts to my own route.

If "necesary" could it be different in trad and in sport? Down east, canon: run it out up left across a clean slab (5.10R).

There is an evolution between static rope where the belay most run, the use of fall factor to know how long the belay most run, the kermantel rope where we have to know how to fall safely and the distance of travel, The use of piton, hard to drive in and necessitated a planification of the route to use just the necessary to come back in the valley, The use of stopper and cam to replace piton.

The next part of the evolution is where the trad climber made a mistake. When bolt appears, bolt was consider as the last option. The classification of A-5 can't be done in first free ascent because there is nothing. Trad climber allow the use of bolt on that situation. Considering bolting as cheating was a good reason to laught at those scary people who, when they pe in there short in trad, use bolt. It is a mistake of trad climber because that part of the evolution of climbing make a clear distinction about two ethics. Those people who like hard, fluid move at hard level was not necessary scare people. There was very good climber, like P. Edlinger, who can teach technique to trad climber and bring a new ethic with is own evolution to climbing. Bouldering, with V-0 to V-9, is also and other ethic. But the climber don't try to appropriate the cliff like sport do: insulting and intimidating people.

So, trad climber have to be good in many skill, like an house boulder and a driver of a manual car. They use bolt in the last necessity. A route like down east is a chalenge where we don't have to change the route, but change the climber: When I will be ready, I will do it...and if it is never, I won't did it.

I can understand that, for a sport climber, 5.10 b is just a formality. You climb 5.12, so there is no chalenge to climb a 5.10...put a bolt (like in crack in the wood) and any stupid climber will be able to do it. But training technique far way from a route is not in the ethic of sport, doing a perfect hard move with style is more important. Sport climber work a route, not the technique. Down east is just a step to the success) (I am sorry, even if I try to find what you like in sport, I don't, so I think that I am not very motivating for sport climber)   

To place the bolt, you insult us, said that it is dangerous, etc. You never talk about two ethics and the training that trad climber must do to do the route. Go to the top, fix a rope, try it many times, do it.  We have a route like down east in Quebec. I said that I will never climb it. I did it two times actually and two variations...And, when I made it, I was very proud because it was the result of a long training, of a work on myself and an honest evaluation of my skill as a climber.

 
 

 
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: DLottmann on December 10, 2012, 07:19:14 AM
You should write a book... Your observations are mind blowing
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: sneoh on December 10, 2012, 08:40:16 AM

But the climber don't try to appropriate the cliff like sport do: insulting and intimidating people.
Do you have names of these bad people?  Let's have the names!  Let's change their ways!


Sport climber work a route, not the technique.
Wow, pretty bold and sweeping statement; going to raise a few eyebrows.
So, strong climbers onsight .14a route while hanging one's own draws are devoid of technique?

Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 10, 2012, 08:51:33 AM

...To place the bolt, you insult us...




(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma5xj2SZSM1qix2bzo1_500.gif)
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 10, 2012, 09:27:08 AM
Lukw- please stop it about Crack In the Woods. You have not done the route, the suggested bolt is to firm up a shitty anchor and will not affect the climbing in any way.
Any "stupid" climber will still be able to do it  (your words , not mine"

Trad- i can't think of to many NE aid routes that got bolted to  do the ffa's ?/  a couple on Warlock, some on Seventh Sojourn......certainly not Armaggeddon, Cecile or candidus
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 10, 2012, 09:31:17 AM
Mordor....     pretty much standard procedure in Yosemite allong with chipping holds :D
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: old_school on December 10, 2012, 09:40:58 AM
Isn't this how Religion got started?? And look where that has gotten us   :-\
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 10, 2012, 09:43:08 AM
Of course adding bolts to aid climbs to free them is totally dependant on the situation. If the FA drilled a line of bat hooks accross a 5.13 slab because they were not good enough to climb the slab free it is perfectly reasonable for a BETTER CLIMBER to come along and fill a few of those holes with bolts and then free climb that section that was completly contrived and Chipped by the FA party.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 10, 2012, 09:50:33 AM
Mordor ??? Not P1 or the roof

The second pitch ain;t going free in this lifetime

Not as much bolting/chipping in the Valley as you might think. The Hubers don't go there anymore
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 10, 2012, 09:57:55 AM
Seems that I read on this board  that Mordor had sprouted bolts. As far as chipping goes anyone who drills a bathook or trenches a hook is chipping. Anyone who pounds a pin is chipping. You can't have it both ways except in fantisy land. If you condone nailing and hard aid you can not bitch about free climbing bolts..  Simply makes zero sense :-*
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: ed_esmond on December 10, 2012, 10:03:07 AM
Isn't this how Religion got started?? And look where that has gotten us   :-\

i don't think "religion" or even "god" is a problem.

they're both great concepts that go wrong when people start thinking they're "the chosen ones" who know the "one TRUE god" and everyone who doesn't think exactly the same way "insults" and "humiliates" them....

that sort of thinking has gotten us where we are today.

ed



Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 10, 2012, 10:13:35 AM
If P1 of Mordor has sprouted bolts they came after the ffa 'cause I belayed Jim and we didn't place any. P2 sure has had stuff added over the years   because SA i think only placed ONE on the f/a

I think fixed heads are the way to go...
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 10, 2012, 10:46:50 AM
 Seems like a fixed head is simply a really crappy bolt....
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 10, 2012, 06:00:03 PM
Lukw- please stop it about Crack In the Woods.

Sorry I go too far, hard to not react badly at what some people wrote. it is not your case.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: lucky luke on December 10, 2012, 06:13:57 PM
If P1 of Mordor has sprouted bolts they came after the ffa 'cause I belayed Jim and we didn't place any. P2 sure has had stuff added over the years   because SA i think only placed ONE on the f/a

I think that SA rate it A-4 or A-3. Did they place a bolt close to the bashi? I am sure that we have some in the traverse. It is interesting how SA bolt it. In the traverse, the fall factor is close to one without bolt. If you fall, you make a very long pendulum in the air to the other side of the crack. SA place a bolt when he change his direction. Instead of doing a traverse, he went up. Without that bolt, in a fall, he will have felt down and after to the side. This kind of fall is very dangerous because you can't protect yourself when the direction of the fall change.

As you place your gear, it happens some times that the protection change the direction of a fall. In that condition, the general rules didn't apply and you have to change your strategy. A longer fall could be a solution better than to sew a crack. Hard to gave a rule to follow, but when I climb trad I can take tricks with the experience of other climbers.
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: strandman on December 10, 2012, 06:25:10 PM
 :-*
Lukw- please stop it about Crack In the Woods.

Sorry I go too far, hard to not react badly at what some people wrote. it is not your case.

Peace, maybe we will go tp cap trinite sometime.. now THAT'S a trad area
Title: Re: 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope
Post by: JBro on December 11, 2012, 01:47:10 PM
...hard to not react badly at what some people wrote...


(http://i.imgur.com/jjZ3k.gif)