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General => Rock Climbing: Trad => Topic started by: lucky luke on March 13, 2013, 01:31:42 PM

Title: definitely "safe"
Post by: lucky luke on March 13, 2013, 01:31:42 PM
or controversial.

You climbed an obvious right-facing flake/corner to an overhang and after you know that you have to climb it to the right. Your last protection is five feet below your feet. No beta on the protection, no beta on the move: 5.10 on-sight.

What do you need in your bag of trick to go over the overhang? There is no bolt.

I would say, for example, enought strength first, and will ask how I can evaluate if I can try it safely. It is a real route that I climbed and strenght was mandatory. 
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: M_Sprague on March 13, 2013, 02:41:13 PM
Been on any nice routes lately, Luke? What did you like about them? Any areas others might not know about that you would suggest people check out? I have only been to a handfull of places in Quebec, but that was years ago. I have been wondering what they are like now.
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: SA on March 13, 2013, 04:01:25 PM
When doing 1st ascents, this situation is pretty typical,---has been for generations.

Remember that old saying, "( when in doubt-run it out)".
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: mopowers on March 13, 2013, 06:19:38 PM
Quote
What do you need in your bag of trick to go over the overhang?

confidence
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: strandman on March 13, 2013, 06:21:13 PM
Stem
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: sneoh on March 13, 2013, 07:03:23 PM
Confidence, gumption, good technique, and a good belayer.
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: kenreville on March 13, 2013, 07:31:34 PM
Quote
What do you need in your bag of trick to go over the overhang?

confidence

+1
A nice low humidity day is a bonus. Irrelevant though when confidence is high.

Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: M_Sprague on March 13, 2013, 07:31:46 PM
Magic 8 ball?
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: sneoh on March 13, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
That's right; a good luck charm never hurts! :)
Title: Re: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: DGoguen on March 13, 2013, 09:24:21 PM
Magic 8 ball?
No just 2



Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: strandman on March 13, 2013, 09:34:38 PM
Magic 8 ball?

ALL 8balls are magic , Mark
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: kenreville on March 13, 2013, 10:28:15 PM
Yeah buddy.
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: lucky luke on March 14, 2013, 03:31:27 AM
When doing 1st ascents, this situation is pretty typical,---has been for generations.

Remember that old saying, "( when in doubt-run it out)".

In that particular route, I remember that I had anticipated the movement and went to a rest...it was a 5.9 move rest (not good at all) and I had to anticipate the next movement. It was an hand crack in the overhang where you switch your feet from the left to the right, grab the corner and layback, if my memories was good. So much fun...as a first ascent. yep!

I agree with run it out, and it takes balls to do that, but there is a time when you had to decide that run it out is too dangerous? or you decide to solo the route. I used the fall factor and I evaluated the distance of my fall, or I take a look higher and come back to my stance to rest. How do you decide when it is time to run out or solo the move?

I don't like "confidence". It is too subjective for me. You are confident in a 5.11 because there is a bolt, but I saw a guy who can't climb wedge, 5.6, at whitehorse ledge because it was too run out...and wet also...that particular day. I saw a guy in slab direct (5.7) that fall on the firs move and he was a climber of 5.11 too. I don't know about you, but don't you think that the word confidence is too subjective?   
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: kenreville on March 14, 2013, 08:32:10 AM
When doing 1st ascents, this situation is pretty typical,---has been for generations.

Remember that old saying, "( when in doubt-run it out)".

In that particular route, I remember that I had anticipated the movement and went to a rest...it was a 5.9 move rest (not good at all) and I had to anticipate the next movement. It was an hand crack in the overhang where you switch your feet from the left to the right, grab the corner and layback, if my memories was good. So much fun...as a first ascent. yep!

I agree with run it out, and it takes balls to do that, but there is a time when you had to decide that run it out is too dangerous? or you decide to solo the route. I used the fall factor and I evaluated the distance of my fall, or I take a look higher and come back to my stance to rest. How do you decide when it is time to run out or solo the move?

I don't like "confidence". It is too subjective for me. You are confident in a 5.11 because there is a bolt, but I saw a guy who can't climb wedge, 5.6, at whitehorse ledge because it was too run out...and wet also...that particular day. I saw a guy in slab direct (5.7) that fall on the firs move and he was a climber of 5.11 too. I don't know about you, but don't you think that the word confidence is too subjective?

Of course it's subjective. What's also subjective is that you can actually make the move, regardless of the run out. If every move you try you make, climbing would be rather boring no?
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: sneoh on March 14, 2013, 08:40:39 AM
"Climbing well" , maybe just climbing is, in itself, subjective. 
Confidence is of course subjective measure, gained through training (trad, sport, boulder, gym, etc), repetition, and experience gained through days on rock.  Not thru debates on the Interweb, I am sorry to say. 
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2013, 10:47:16 AM
Luke- a '5.11" climber who falls off Slabs Direct is either High or maybe , just maybe, NOT a 5.11 cclimber
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: lucky luke on March 14, 2013, 11:48:40 AM
"Climbing well" , maybe just climbing is, in itself, subjective. 
[...] Not thru debates on the Interweb, I am sorry to say.

Knowing our limit is certainly important. One can be a good 5.11 on face climbing and a poor one on slab climbing. As I had carpal tunel, I wasn't abel to climb hard crack because my hand opened. So, I won't say that he wasn't a 5.11 climber, but that one of his weakness was slab climbing. If you remember slab direct, there is a piton under a flake and you can place two or three stopper higher and you have a run out of 40 to 60 feet to the next protection. the slab/layback move is very stressful and mak the fall dangerous.

Is it safe to know your limit in different kind of rock or controversial? . The 5.11 climber in "diedra" roof, at cathedral, will rate it 5.10 and, as I am/was(sniff) a 5.9 slab climber, I will rate it 5.8+ becasuse I do a friction move in it. if we do a debate, like a brain storming, I think that we can be safer. If you consider me as an enemy that you must fight, it is not the good place.

In the "art of leading", John Long, one large part of his video is to learn climbing technique. Although it is better to climb every day to learn it, some people, far from a cliff, can need a guide to bring them outside there confort zone. Like when I bring a 5.11 climber in a 5.7 slab to see his reaction under stress. He bail and did it in top rope....feel humiliate...and think that I want to laught at him.

In master of stone, we saw a lot of the technique use by John Long, but done in one movement in marginal hold. I am not sure that master of stone is for begineer?

 

 
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: mopowers on March 14, 2013, 04:15:33 PM
Quote
You are confident in a 5.11 because there is a bolt, but I saw a guy who can't climb wedge, 5.6, at whitehorse ledge because it was too run out...and wet also...that particular day. I saw a guy in slab direct (5.7) that fall on the firs move and he was a climber of 5.11 too. I don't know about you, but don't you think that the word confidence is too subjective? 

A bit speculative, eh! I find it entertaining that you fancy yourself as the only trad climber on this forum.

I dont train and consider myself in average to low physical fitness. Knowing my limits and having confidence in my ability has got me through many situations as you described. Confidence gained from experience. Well...that and dumb luck, dumb being the operative word on many occasions.
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: DGoguen on March 14, 2013, 05:20:07 PM
I dont train and consider myself in average to low physical fitness.
Dave, If your approaching low physical fitness, I better get over to the clinic, I may be dying as we speak.
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: JakeDatc on March 14, 2013, 05:29:19 PM

What do you need in your bag of trick to go over the overhang? There is no bolt.

to shut up and pull harder. 
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2013, 06:44:49 PM
LL you talk about not climbing hard due to carpal tunnel- no shit   Everyone has specialties and favorites,, slab, cracks etc. What i say is that if say climb 5.11 crack and fall off 5.7 slab, you are not a 5.11 climber
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: eyebolter on March 14, 2013, 07:22:00 PM
don't you think that the word confidence is too subjective?

I think that the word "subjective" is too subjective.

And "think" is pretty damned subjective when you think about it....

Mares eat oats, and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy....
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: strandman on March 14, 2013, 09:06:58 PM
Eye- are you with LL ??? I have no clue what you just said
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: sneoh on March 14, 2013, 09:52:00 PM
From Bubba Bill, what is the meaning of "is"?

Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: xcrag_corex on March 14, 2013, 10:24:26 PM
I feel the libations may have kicked in on this thread... I fear ::) that I am lost and I will now never discover what level of climber/ confidence I have let alone aspire to.  ::)
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: OldEric on March 14, 2013, 11:24:17 PM
don't you think that the word confidence is too subjective?

I think that the word "subjective" is too subjective.

And "think" is pretty damned subjective when you think about it....

Mares eat oats, and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy....

a kid will eat ivy too
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: JakeDatc on March 15, 2013, 12:05:11 AM
don't you think that the word confidence is too subjective?

I think that the word "subjective" is too subjective.

And "think" is pretty damned subjective when you think about it....

Mares eat oats, and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy....

a kid will eat ivy too

yours might ;) 
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: lucky luke on March 15, 2013, 03:00:55 AM
A bit speculative, eh! I find it entertaining that you fancy yourself as the only trad climber on this forum.

I dont train and consider myself in average to low physical fitness. Knowing my limits and having confidence in my ability has got me through many situations as you described. Confidence gained from experience. Well...that and dumb luck, dumb being the operative word on many occasions.
I never talked about trad or sport, I just asked what is the ability that you need to climb fasten gun at poko moonshine, a place that can be hard to protect without bolting anchor. (curiously, there is one or two bolt in the third pitch)

For a kid, wanting adventure and glory, the topic can be interesting. It is not when you can kill yourself that it is the good time to answer questions. It is why I wrote "definitely safe"

gained from experience and gained by climbing in a gym is not the same confidence. As an onsight climber, I am more interesed by which experience you did to gain confidence. Ed Webster climbed at Barber wall and try to place as much protection as they can in difficult situation to gain confidence an master the technique to place pro. And, I like to climb with other people like ed webster
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: hobbsj on March 15, 2013, 08:02:07 AM
Go and get my belayer to do it-- 5.10 is hard for me and I'm weak as a kitten.
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: eyebolter on March 15, 2013, 08:15:06 AM
don't you think that the word confidence is too subjective?

I think that the word "subjective" is too subjective.

And "think" is pretty damned subjective when you think about it....

Mares eat oats, and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy....

a kid will eat ivy too

Wouldn't you?

Glad somebody here gets it!
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: kenreville on March 15, 2013, 08:45:25 AM
don't you think that the word confidence is too subjective?

I think that the word "subjective" is too subjective.

And "think" is pretty damned subjective when you think about it....

Mares eat oats, and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy....

a kid will eat ivy too

I'll eat Ivy if she's hot.
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: M_Sprague on March 15, 2013, 08:46:12 AM
Goofy as a goon and silly as a loon
Some call it pretty others call it crazy
But they all sing this tune
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: DaveR on March 15, 2013, 09:00:48 AM
I'll eat Ivy if she's hot.

 ;D
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: strandman on March 15, 2013, 10:08:49 AM
Poison ?

So, to summarize, i have to climb with Ed in poison Ivy ??? Oh wait.. I HAVE done that
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: lucky luke on March 16, 2013, 11:28:29 PM
"Climbing well" , maybe just climbing is, in itself, subjective. 
Confidence is of course subjective measure, gained through training (trad, sport, boulder, gym, etc), repetition, and experience gained through days on rock.

Or a measure of what I can do versus what I can not do....and the chalenge is to climb when I think that I can do, a little gasp between what I did and what I dream to do

pushing our limits, myself against myself.

no competition 
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: strandman on March 16, 2013, 11:43:17 PM
Anyone who says ther is no comp is a liar--  Wether with yourself or with others. the comp is there
Title: Re: definitely "safe"
Post by: lucky luke on March 16, 2013, 11:59:11 PM
Anyone who says ther is no comp is a liar-

Maybe we don't se the same definition of compete: 1.Strive to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others who are trying to do the same. 2.Take part in a contest

When I write on this forum, I wrote to help people to be safer. I surely don't want to defeat or establish superiority over other. I want them to have fun, climb what ever they like from the lower level to the higher and come back safe. There is so many way to be safe and have fun.

if you write to establish your superiority, you win. I am weaker. I don't take part at your contest.

I use the definition of improve, "1.Make or become better. 2.Develop or increase in mental capacity by education or experience, to describe a competition between me yesterday and me tomorow...