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General => Injuries, Medical & Training => Topic started by: strandman on March 16, 2013, 10:29:00 AM

Title: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 16, 2013, 10:29:00 AM
i was going to put this in general climbing but..

i wonder how many people have any kind of first aid/ first responder training ? i assume ? that the guides on this site have at least this and more.  WFR ? WEMT ??

I think SOMETHING is essential for anybody that spends time on the rock and ice.

i have to re-up my FR and just noticed that SOLO does Wilderness First  Aid courses.. 2 days $160 seems like a good deal to me.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: Admin Al on March 16, 2013, 11:55:26 AM
WFR
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: JBro on March 16, 2013, 12:51:42 PM
I took a full blown college level EMT program back around '98 for the sole purpose of being better prepared to handle a climbing accident. In retrospect, I probably would have been much better off with the SOLO WFR. I hardly remember anything from the program at this point.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: ELM on March 16, 2013, 02:12:03 PM
I am a Nurse but I was a Paramedic before that. I'm not sure of everyone needs to do a $160 course. At least get a basic first aid course from the Red Cross; hell even just read the book! I do think if you get further into any activity that takes you to remote places you should ramp up your skills so you can be as self sufficent and safe as you can be.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 16, 2013, 06:03:02 PM
Ed-i agree,, but get something.. i think it's a general climbing thing..

of course I cheat-- regular partners are a trauma Doc ,RN  and WEMT
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: danf on March 16, 2013, 07:32:13 PM
I don't have any formal training but my girlfriend is with me 95%+ of the time and she is an EMT... At some point soon I will likely go for a first responder course.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 16, 2013, 07:56:38 PM
...2 days $160 seems like a good deal to me.

Hell yes. WFA should be the bare minimum for those who spend time in the mountains... WFR for anyone who wants to lead trips, care for others, etc...

I'm WFR, 3 times re-certified... re-cert again this April...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: ELM on March 16, 2013, 10:00:17 PM
I aggree that a WFA should be a base for everyone. However I have to say that the class costs are getting expensive; NOLS has it from $135-$220. I would love to see a one day clinic for $75. It could be a totally non-cert class but built for climbers/backcountry skiiers who want advanced firstaid skills.
Heck if I could figure out the frame work to do it I'de do a 10 hour class like that for climbers.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: xcrag_corex on March 16, 2013, 11:31:36 PM
WFR. SOLO. great course. took it last year.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: darwined on March 16, 2013, 11:32:15 PM
WFR
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: Jeff on March 17, 2013, 07:51:40 AM
18 years as a street EMT, working for a volunteer ambulance corps in CT, now WFR, which I find more applicable to my climbing and general back country activities-- another big plus vote for the training at SOLO-- when I couldn't fit in an EMT recert, I took their WFA course to have an active certification for my guiding; so impressed with the level of the training they give ( I had recertified as an EMT 7 times) that I went back a year later and took the full WFR course, which I'll recertify next year. Definitely worth the $!
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 17, 2013, 08:00:38 AM
I aggree that a WFA should be a base for everyone. However I have to say that the class costs are getting expensive; NOLS has it from $135-$220. I would love to see a one day clinic for $75. It could be a totally non-cert class but built for climbers/backcountry skiiers who want advanced firstaid skills.
Heck if I could figure out the frame work to do it I'de do a 10 hour class like that for climbers.

For those tight on money there are excellent books out there for under $20... as far as course cost goes I think you often get what you pay for... higher cost courses usually have higher certified or experienced trainers, who provide better quality courses than some volunteer teacher... Just sayiní, is $175 for 2 days of professional instruction that could last a lifetime (and possibly save a life) really that expensive? Some people blow more than that on a night out in town... never mind the additional medical costs associated with a poorly splinted leg or complications from improperly moving someone with a spinal injury...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 17, 2013, 12:49:16 PM
Is it Wilderness Medicine ? or a similar title / I have this book and it's really good stuff
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: lucky luke on March 17, 2013, 02:36:50 PM
I am a Nurse but I was a Paramedic before that. I'm not sure of everyone needs to do a $160 course. At least get a basic first aid course from the Red Cross; hell even just read the book! I do think if you get further into any activity that takes you to remote places you should ramp up your skills so you can be as self sufficent and safe as you can be.

Agree. some times they are full equip in courses and can not help the leader when he hurt himself. When I was climbing in remote area, nobody around 20 miles away, I told my second to do nothig to save me...so he won't be hurt. 

Never think that I was self sufficent and as safe as I can be, but I am still training other things than climbing hard...

courses create an obligation to be a first repondant, without courses you are protect by the good samaritan law. For me, climbing practice is better than taking a first aid course...althought I can know a lot of thing (aid nurse for eight year) by studying, in a 90 degree cliff, without any thing, it is hard to immobilize the climber any way. 
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 17, 2013, 02:54:15 PM
I aggree that a WFA should be a base for everyone. However I have to say that the class costs are getting expensive; NOLS has it from $135-$220. I would love to see a one day clinic for $75. It could be a totally non-cert class but built for climbers/backcountry skiiers who want advanced firstaid skills.
Heck if I could figure out the frame work to do it I'de do a 10 hour class like that for climbers.

i know  some guides who used to do a day  thing, with rescue , first aid etc....  I think it would be well attended.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 17, 2013, 06:19:35 PM
When I was climbing in remote area, nobody around 20 miles away, I told my second to do nothig to save me...so he won't be hurt. 
...

I would be scared shitless if I was a new climber and the leader told me this... WTF a I doing here? Whatís going to happen? Do I need to cut the rope?

Holy drama Batman...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 17, 2013, 06:22:52 PM
I aggree that a WFA should be a base for everyone. However I have to say that the class costs are getting expensive; NOLS has it from $135-$220. I would love to see a one day clinic for $75. It could be a totally non-cert class but built for climbers/backcountry skiiers who want advanced firstaid skills.
Heck if I could figure out the frame work to do it I'de do a 10 hour class like that for climbers.

i know  some guides who used to do a day  thing, with rescue , first aid etc....  I think it would be well attended.

I think all the guide services offer ďSelf-RescueĒ, but the issue is you can not teach leader rescue, rope ascension, hauling systems, counter-balance rappels, load transfers, belay escapes, splinting, dealing with head trauma, open fractures, dislocations, etc. etc. in one 8 hour course...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 17, 2013, 06:28:22 PM
maybe we should just teach --cut the rope.  simple , effective and satisying
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: lucky luke on March 17, 2013, 08:57:35 PM
I would be scared shitless if I was a new climber and the leader told me this... WTF a I doing here? Whatís going to happen? Do I need to cut the rope?
I climbed with a doctor, so he new all about first aid. but he didn't know all about the danger of a cliff. if I get hurt, it is my choice, not his.

As a leader, my first duty is to protect him. My second learned to aid climb, do rap, stay calm in dangerous situation and plan a multipitch route before going in remote area. Often, when you try to "save' some one, you make two victims.

I saw many climber proud to have a first aid course, never say that it is not good to have the basic, but can not be efficient in rope technique. So, for me, a good course with a guide, is better than a first aid course. In aid climbing, you place a pro at each three feet. if you climb 150 feet, you place 50 pro. Who are going to be better in building an anchor: the one with a first aid course or the one with an aid climbing course? No anchor, no rescue. With a good anchor and inteligence, you can save some one else without first aid course.     
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: JBro on March 17, 2013, 09:05:39 PM
maybe we should just teach --cut the rope.  simple , effective and satisying

It worked well for Simon Yates!
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 17, 2013, 09:27:18 PM
Who are going to be better in building an anchor: the one with a first aid course or the one with an aid climbing course? No anchor, no rescue. With a good anchor and inteligence, you can save some one else without first aid course.   

Which is why both skills are important. Self-rescue (technical skills), and wilderness medicine skills (WFA or WFR). Doesnít help if you can build an anchor if you canít recognize symptoms of a serious head injury or the difference between a broken tib-fib or femur... you may lower him safetly to the ground but not addressing ABCís may make that point moot...

If you wish to climb multi-pitch trad you should aspire to be able to ascend a loaded rope, build an anchor,stop severe bleeding, stabilize unstable fractures, establish a counter balance rappel, and transfer a load (unconscious person) to a new anchor to continue rappelling.

Bottom line, rope work knowledge alone wonít save someone who just took a 30 footer, flipped upside down, and whacked themselves unconscious...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: hobbsj on March 17, 2013, 09:35:55 PM
Actually, Champ, you need to reread the laws.  Taking a course does not obligate you to anything other than to those in your party.  Acting as a citizen could cause more problems as the Good Samaritan Act does not permit you to try first aid and things you read in a book way back when without a course.  You would open yourself up for liability then as the act protects the average person acting in a prudent manner.  And there are some basic aspects of consent that a course may help you implement in to your approach that the average person may not realize, and therefore be a liability.  And a course doesn't force you to be a first responder.  In order to be liable, you have to have a duty to act.  If its somebody in your party, you have a duty.  If you see some guys three climbs over, you have no duty to act.  HOWEVER, once you initiate care, you have have accepted the responsibility and now have a duty and can not leave the patients until relieved by somebody of equal or higher training, obvious signs of death (depending on license type and environment), or the scene becomes unsafe.  And if something happens while you are administering care, you a re compared to the standards of practice of your certification/license and what your peers of equivalent license would have done in the same situation.  If I remember correctly, you are Canadian, and in all fairness, the laws may differ there and your statement may be accurate.  However, here in the US, you are off base.  But I agree with a lot of what you are saying otherwise.

Along those lines, the guide classes you guys speak of can open them up for liability too.  If somebody takes their class and f's up, the guides have no backing of certifications or organizations to show that they could teach classes effectively or that they had the capacity to allow you to walk away and competently apply those skills.  Again, scope of practice.  Things get complicated when cash is exchanged for a service like that.  Not saying its right or wrong.  But it is what it is.

I'll be the lone one to stand alone a bit on this one.  I do not think it is a huge thing to take a medical course.  If it interests you and you want to be prepared to handle those situations, go for it.  That's what first started me in my medical course.  Everybody thinks they can be a hero with whatever skill they learn, but reality is a bit of a bitch and always isn't as straight forward as the classes seem.  Armchair quarterbacks rattling off what should have happened are aplenty.  And you can really run in to trouble with people overstepping their scope of practice.  I remember one kid telling somebody to do this that and the other when person B was having some trouble breathing and cramping after a hard run.  I told him to back off, in a polite professional manner, and kid a literally said "hey man, I'm first aid trained I got this."  He was a bit dumbfounded when I rattled off my qualifications and told him to back off.

On the other hand, those skills are valuable.  Two days after my WFR years back, my then girlfriend crashed be bike on the trails and had a major bleeder in her leg.  Man was I jazzed to try to do something.  The some jerk EMT-P had to spoil the party for me.   (when she had her c-section I thought it was the coolest thing to see the doc jacking around in her.  My smile was huge and I didn't even look at her face.  So yeah, weird interests.)  But I still sent other riders in our group on tasks to ensure safety of the scene in a wilderness environment.  Things the jerk EMT-P didn't think of that seemed basic after establishing that mindset.  EMT-P wasn't a real jerk, just killed my fun.

On that note, the WFR course helped with the aspect of scene analysis, but that is something we climbers train to do when sizing up a climb.  In the end, the classes can be helpful and add another arrow to you quiver of skills, but nothing more.  My ball and chain is a doc, and I'll trust my safety in the vertical world to my long haired, ultra bearded, spastic hippy partner long before her as he can figure stuff out and problem solve to rescue me in that environment.  Just try to learn things when you can that make you a better climber and learn more skills.  The time spent going over different bailing methods for 30 minutes saved my ass more times than the 3 hours covering strokes and MI's in my WFR class.  But if my buddy starts getting chest pain on the hike, I would have been glad I had those 3 hours.  Its great to ramble off acronyms and what ifs, but you have to look at the reality of the likelihood you would be in an event to use the skills.  There's always a course you could take to learn this that or the other, like an avalanche course from trusted snow ranger ;) Certifications are great for protecting yourself from liability and knowing you learned the skills to a certain level, but the competency and ability to apply them is what counts.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: lucky luke on March 19, 2013, 02:41:47 AM
Just try to learn things when you can that make you a better climber and learn more skills.  The time spent going over different bailing methods for 30 minutes saved my ass more times than the 3 hours covering strokes and MI's in my WFR class.

As I said: "I saw many climber proud to have a first aid course, never say that it is not good to have the basic, but can not be efficient in rope technique"

we are saying the same or approximately. Better to learn things that make you a better climber and learn more skills. In accident in north american mountaineering, page 123, ed 2012, they report that fracture, laceration abrasion, bruise, sprain/strain, concusion, are the more commun and count for over 50% of the injury in accident. Althought some open fracture can be hard to treat, there is not really a reason to learn about strokes and many other things.

Personally, I have sling that I can untied and do a bandage with it, It happens one day when my partner sprinkle is ankle. He was able to walk down the 900 feet cliff and have to be with cruchess for a week. I also did six cardiac reanimation, lost three patient and save three. when it's happening, it is not like in a course. If you are a climber, you know that many people can't do a simple knot at 200 feet from the ground...remembering some thing that you learn in a course is elusive...unless you can climb multipitch without bolt or guide book to tell you where is the belay because when a person fall, it is often not just at the belay.

The belay...that is an other story many time more important than a first aid course, as I understand of ELM. In british where coming (canon) the anchor, at the pitch after the crux, is pratically deadly scary...even for me. The crux worth it, but I will not climb that route again.   
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 19, 2013, 09:19:57 AM
i was waiting for that shit hole, fucking book to be mentioned... i  never liked it and now.....
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 19, 2013, 09:22:01 AM
...there is not really a reason to learn about strokes and many other things.
...   

Non-climbing every day people would benefit from being able to recognize both the beginning of a stroke and symptoms of a heart attack. Lives are often saved when a family member or friend quickly recognizes these symptoms. A few years ago a 28 friend of mine had a stroke and if it wasnít for his wifeís quick action it could have turned out pretty bad...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: ELM on March 19, 2013, 02:46:40 PM
Dman..I think self rescue is seperate from First Aid. I was speaking just to the cost of the WFA classes. Self rescue classes have been on my "to do" list for a while and I think they'de be worth every penny. Now if you could only talk EMS into give them during the week and I'de be all set: I work weekends. :(
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: Jeff on March 19, 2013, 04:26:31 PM
Ed: I'm sure that if you could get 2 or 3 others interested, EMS could certainly provide a mid-week self rescue course--they are scheduled on weekends because more people looking for them are free then. There are certainly guides available to give a course during the week ( disclaimer: I guide for EMS--I don't do the scheduling, but any of our courses can usually be offered any day if a group forms and asks for a specific day or days ) ; contact the office and make a request.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 19, 2013, 05:11:36 PM
Please Correct me if i am wrong but everything I have experienced leads me to believe that it it is serious the #1 thing is to get the victim transported to a hospital ASAP?
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 19, 2013, 06:16:45 PM
Sorry Trad-- bleeding and breathing.. THEN hospital.  i know that alain Comeau and George Hurley used to do a one day rescue/aid deal , bitd.. WEMT I think ??

you cannot have enough knowledge about this stuff     LL

i stiched a bud's hand one time about 5 miles from the road... it looked bad, but i didn't hit anything serious and pretty sure got to him before shock set in.. anyway, he made it

geta wfa  just to deal with basics.. bee stings, bleeding etc

Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 19, 2013, 07:18:28 PM
My bad. I just assumed that you plug the leaks and keep the airway open then get them to an ambulence or hospital asap while you tell them how great they are doing. I hope to take a course this year time and money allowing.
 Working  as a photog in terrain parks and horse shows I have been 1st on scene dozens of times with no training. On the ski hill I would get one of their buddys to block off the jump,  take their skis or board off, make sure they are not squirming around and their spine is flat on the snow. don't let em get up.   If they are leaking real bad I give them a wad of paper towles  (lense tissue) and tell them or their buddy to use direct pressure. Not good for me to get involved with any more than that. as I am not qualified. patrol got there in 10 min usualy. sometimes a bit quicker but 10 min seems like a long time if someone is hurt. I would let patrol know if the kid had lost conciousness.

Horse shows I usually try to catch the horse and then stay out of the way. The EMT is there in 30 to 90 seconds.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 19, 2013, 07:37:40 PM
Ya -- it's not to good to stop the bleeding and then say "Oh. your gonna fucking die anyway "

We has a femur one time out i Huntingtons'   NOT GOOD i never did the traction/ hiking pole before and i never want to do it again
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: ELM on March 19, 2013, 07:54:21 PM
Not really sure I would ever teach someone traction...or do it in the field :-\
Seriously: there is a need for a class like Comeau and Hurley did. Full day; less than $100, no cert. but knowlege and skills that can save a life.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 19, 2013, 10:07:30 PM
I/m not saying I was taught  I wa with WEMT and his first time as well.. learned a lot that day

you ain't gettin' that in FOTH
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 19, 2013, 10:45:52 PM
Not really sure I would ever teach someone traction...or do it in the field :-\
Seriously: there is a need for a class like Comeau and Hurley did. Full day; less than $100, no cert. but knowlege and skills that can save a life.

Iíve been wanting to get involved with SOLO for awhile, especially after seeing a couple guides out west offer a week long avalanche/first aid combination course... It was basically AIARE 1 plus WFA... makes sense as if someone in your group is buried they are quite likely to have trauma (especially roundí here)... We can definitely offer that type of program... Cost would look like:

$275 for 1v1
$150 3:1

We could probably do $95 for a 4:1 course...

We actually have a senior guide who has been involved with SOLO for a long time (Peter Lewis) who would be perfect to run this type of course...

Iíll chat with management about getting something like this scheduled...

In hindsight, the real issue is trying to cram rope rescue skills plus first aid into 8 hours... but something may be possible...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: sneoh on March 19, 2013, 11:05:32 PM
Trying to cram too much into a 1-day course is a common pitfall of many courses.  I think it is more important to get the participants to remember everything they are taught and have time for hands-on 'practice' of the key points/skills.  If the amount of material is better suited for a 2-day course, so be it.
If you all can arrange for a 3:1 or 4:1 1-day course in WFA for $100+/-25, no cert, I would love to be able to attend and learn something.  I've been in a number of rescues over the years and each time feeling a little helpless and mostly acted as a mule or a runner (to get more help or to make sure the EMT can find us).
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: hobbsj on March 20, 2013, 07:56:17 AM
Shoot, if you guys are going to organize a class for yourself, customize it.  I'm assuming you will be going in with all the basics of climbing.  Just have them do a few rescue systems without worrying about the very basics by communicating what you know before hand and add a first aid class.  There's always going to be a skill that could possibly save somebodies life.  You can't get them all.  Just do a first aid class (bleeding, splints, and a couple of other things) with a bit of rescue work and you can walk away with the majority of what you will encounter.  With even a bit of background knowledge in the class, you should be able to cover most of the skills w/o being inundated.  Remember that classes are normally written for the lowest common denominator.  Just sayin it sucks when half the class is getting one guy up to speed especially when you're paying for it.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: ELM on March 20, 2013, 08:04:02 AM
I would keep the first-aid and self rescue seperate. The first aid class would appeal to not just climbers. The 4:1 ratio @ $95 is perfect!
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: sneoh on March 20, 2013, 08:41:52 AM
I would keep the first-aid and self rescue seperate. The first aid class would appeal to not just climbers.
I agree.

Remember that classes are normally written for the lowest common denominator.  Just sayin it sucks when half the class is getting one guy up to speed especially when you're paying for it.
Good point! 
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 20, 2013, 09:30:16 AM
A 2 day Wilderness First Aid course at SOLO in Conway, NH is only $160. They have one running the weekend of May 4th, just in time for the rock climbing season! They also offer them all over the place!

http://www.soloschools.com/index.cfm?event=courses.show&ctid=1

This really is a sound investment for ANYONE who spends time hiking, climbing, etc.

ELM, sending a PM.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: lucky luke on March 20, 2013, 09:32:52 AM
you cannot have enough knowledge about this stuff     LL

totaly agree.

Should we sold safety? theorical question, but how closely relate to the subject first aid course. some want to sold a course to make money, not for safety. some want more safety and suggest a course. The mentality of both are very different. One want to please a customer to untertain him for two days, the other will say the real thing: you can dye.

For a customer, it is fun to say in a meeting: you know I took a two days courses and we learn to do cardiac reanimation...so don't worry!!! But it is not fun to say: the guide pull me out of my stance and I felt three feet because I didn't belay my leader correctly. (I don't want to enter in a discussion if pulling litely someone of his stance or speaking to the guy his a good practice to remember safety, it worked with me long time ago).

In my opinion, first aid course most be a part of the beginer courses, a two hours or so, and it most be a follow up as the student graduate from one level to the other. The course most be realistic, like a simulation for beginer of a broken leg and the logistic to bring the climber to the car, with references on some good books and/or sugestion of courses for those who have too much work
to read about first aid.

Conclusion: climbing like a "pro", hard climb, take so much time that people skip other point of climbing. Cranking a 5.11 is more important than to avoid an accident and there will be always some guy to plug courses to make money instead of guy giving free time to save people (hope to be wrong, specially for the rescue team)     
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 20, 2013, 10:23:43 AM
But is not that simply the fault of the sport climber who trad is not first mentality :P
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 20, 2013, 05:49:44 PM
Conclusion: climbing like a "pro", hard climb, take so much time that people skip other point of climbing. Cranking a 5.11 is more important than to avoid an accident and there will be always some guy to plug courses to make money instead of guy giving free time to save people...

I agree that people learn to climb 5.11 before learning self-rescue and basic first aid skills, and thatís unfortunate. However ďgiving free time to save peopleĒ is a bit idealistic. If I was independently wealthy and didnít need to put food on the table Iíd be happy to offer free self-rescue courses in the name of safety...

Maybe itís cultural... you guys have free college and medicare right? My Canadian friends say a trip to the ER in Canada is a nightmare... but itís free right?
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 20, 2013, 06:13:30 PM
dave.  a trip to the ER in the good ol USof A is not only a nightmare but  you come away from it in debt for life. And i can personaly vouch for the fact that you get treated  way different when you have insurance than when you do not. I have been through it both ways...........
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 20, 2013, 06:28:08 PM
Alright ! now we are going ... i negotiated prices for my hip   ,good thing the overall cost was $96,000.. two days in hospital.  i canada you may wait a year for a joint replacement,, maybe

I did a day thing with George bitd as a trade for an f/a , barter.... he played knocked out/dead  and " what are you going to do ?" Learned a lot that day. 

i think the MRS guys in NH are great,, spend some time, help out and learn something... THEN go to yosemite ans get scared shitless

Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: lucky luke on March 21, 2013, 04:05:46 AM
But is not that simply the fault of the sport climber who trad is not first mentality :P

sorry that you bring safety and first aid courses to a conflict between sport and trad.

medicine have numbered of wonderfull cure for any thing...is the first aid courses and avalanche courses a wonderfull cure for climber? You take a course and sudently you are safe?

As I state, for me, teaching climbing is teaching safety. Teaching safety is: 1-finding a dangerous situation 2- finding solutions to avoid the danger and 3- choice and execution of a solution.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 21, 2013, 06:39:36 AM
dang, that was too easy :-*
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: sneoh on March 21, 2013, 07:36:18 AM
I thought Groundhog Day was about six weeks ago.  The horse has already been beaten into pulp, Champ.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 21, 2013, 10:15:48 AM

As I state, for me, teaching climbing is teaching safety. Teaching safety is: 1-finding a dangerous situation 2- finding solutions to avoid the danger and 3- choice and execution of a solution.

Sounds like every Day 3 of an avalanche course I have led this year... look at that, we agree!
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 21, 2013, 10:18:12 AM
You take a course and sudently you are safe?

We agree again! Some statistics say you are more likely to be in an accident after taking a course. No course can guarantee your safety, it is up to you to get applied experience over time in order for anything you learned to be valuable...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on March 21, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
What ?!
Of course you don't instantly "become" safe... taking a course won't kill you,  but not knowing how to stop bleeding might.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: tradmanclimbz on March 21, 2013, 05:32:35 PM
If i can't fix you with a roll of hockey tape and a shirt, yer Gonna Die...........

at least that is what my ski patrol climbing buddys would tell me.....
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: lucky luke on March 22, 2013, 02:36:12 AM
Some statistics say you are more likely to be in an accident after taking a course.

Do you have the statistic? I think that I don't understand

Take a course, you think that you are good and you are not so good...you have an accident.

No course, you think that you are not good but you still have some intelligence...you avoid an accident

I prefer to don't have an accident.

(I think that courses are good, some courses are good, not all
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: hobbsj on March 22, 2013, 08:24:16 AM
Interestingly, there was a study done on bike helmet laws.  I read it several years ago and don't have the link or reference.  You can use google scholar just as easily as me to find it.   It found that the number of injuries did not decline with mandatory use.  The theory behind it was that kids were taking bigger and/or more risks due to the security they felt from the helmet.  It had a few holes as some things were not accounted for, such as severity of the accidents, reporting of low speed crashes and possible correlations with increased bicycle use.  But still, there was evidence of that mindset.  Not necessarily the same as a FA course.  But the theory has been recognized.  Now I doubt a FA course provides a sufficient tool to make people think differently with their decision making.  "Dude, we can try that gnarly route now.  I know CPR."  I would think that mindset would be more aligned with an avi-course, two newbie partners taking a leader's course, or even a rescue/bail course.  And I wonder if the study that was referenced earlier showed increased involvement in accidents by people with medical training or in increased likelihood.  For instance, does the course really cause a change in decision making, or are the individuals now more likely to help out and get involved in the event of an accident.  Sometimes subtle word choice can get really twisted around when reading these studies.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: JBro on March 22, 2013, 10:22:10 AM
I believe the stat dman referenced regarding being more likely to be in an accident having received training versus not is specifically about avalanche training. Presumably after training some people feel more confident pushing things a bit and maybe heading out into conditions that normally wouldn't attempt without training?
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 22, 2013, 07:04:26 PM
ďItís not what you donít know that will get you killed, itís what you think you know that just ainít so.Ē - Old Appalachian Proverb...

I can dig up the statistic later but it comes down to having formal training but low experience, and confidence can outweigh ability...

Itís essentially why courses are not valuable without applied experience in all walks of life...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: lucky luke on March 23, 2013, 02:21:01 AM
Interestingly, there was a study done on bike helmet laws.  I read it several years ago and don't have the link or reference.  You can use google scholar just as easily as me to find it.   It found that the number of injuries did not decline with mandatory use. 

dont remember the year, it is in anam. They said that bolt don't lower the number of accident because accident is more a question of attitude than of accessory. As a course is an accessory, I can thing that some people use a course as a tool and it is a part of there bag of trick and other use it as a short cut to go faster to the high level.

It is why I don't like avy danger actually. if a guy climb a route, avoid the bottom slab by the right, cross over at the top of the slab to the rock, climb on ice/rock to the top of the next slab, climb two ice field and top out...even if you have an high avy danger, your risk is low. If you climb straight in the middle of the bottom slab...even in low avalanche danger, your risk is higher.

Actually, the avy don't make the distinction between the mature and green climber, between climbing outside the avalanche bed and inside it. It is a short cut to know the condition...and some courses, when you dont know your limit, is also a short cut.     
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: Jeff on March 23, 2013, 08:29:31 AM
There's another side to Dman's statement that there is a slightly greater chance of someone who has taken an avy course eventually getting caught in an avalanche; Most people who never go into avalanche terrain in winter never take an avalanche course :-\ It stands to reason then, that those who take courses have a greater chance of eventually getting caught-- they probably intend to travel in avalanche terrain in winter; it's not the fault of taking a course, but rather that people who take them are those at the greatest risk of exposure to the danger as a subset of the general population.
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: Admin Al on March 23, 2013, 09:18:18 AM
it's not the fault of taking a course, but rather that people who take them are those at the greatest risk of exposure to the danger as a subset of the general population.

I think that's correct...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: lucky luke on March 23, 2013, 03:02:28 PM
it's not the fault of taking a course, but rather that people who take them are those at the greatest risk of exposure to the danger as a subset of the general population.

agree, there was a confusion. Better say now

Now do you think that all people use a short cut (took a course so I don't have to learn other technique) or they use a course and avy sign as a tool, not an order to climb or not climb?
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: DLottmann on March 23, 2013, 07:51:35 PM
it's not the fault of taking a course, but rather that people who take them are those at the greatest risk of exposure to the danger as a subset of the general population.
... or they use a course and avy sign as a tool, not an order to climb or not climb?

this, and it is stressed throughout the course...
Title: Re: First Aid
Post by: strandman on April 27, 2013, 07:09:56 PM
I re-upped today,, and i think it's a good thing.