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General => Epics and Accidents => Topic started by: markvnh on June 18, 2013, 06:32:05 am

Title: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: markvnh on June 18, 2013, 06:32:05 am
Heard about this on TV and found this online. Appears that a "guide" was involved - and a rope was cut/failed. Of course we all know that can mean anything the way these get reported. Anyone know anything else? Hopefully all recover fully.

http://bangordailynews.com/2013/06/17/news/hancock/rock-climbers-hurt-in-fall-at-acadia/
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DLottmann on June 18, 2013, 08:26:02 am
"The rope appears to have broken because it wore through while rubbing against a sharp rock, he said."

Since top-belaying is the norm there I'm wondering if it was a belayed rappel, or lowering incident. Plenty of edges there deserve consideration. We probably won't hear from those involved but I really would like to know what system was being used at the time of the accident.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: markvnh on June 18, 2013, 12:18:41 pm
Updated info - Acadia Mountain Guides. Appears everyone will eventually be OK - which is great news.

http://boston.com/metrodesk/2013/06/18/two-boston-area-rock-climbers-injured-fall-maine-national-park/ZMs1M1TporiTBQ2PRX6VOO/story.html
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DLottmann on June 18, 2013, 03:15:23 pm
That is great news... I still can't accurately picture this:

“Basically, they had a rope cut above the point where the three people were secured to the rope,” said Tierney, who said he’s climbed Otter Cliff about 100 times a year for the last 20 years.

The male climber and the guide fell off the side of the cliff, a drop of about 22 feet, Tierney said. The female climber was at the base of the cliff, waiting for instruction from the guide, he said.

“She was on the ground below. She was the one having difficulty. The guide went down to coach her through a difficult move and when the guide fell, it ended up pulling the other climber off with him,” he said."

So... my typical set up for top belaying there, which I think was kind of invented my Tierney, is to fix the middle of the rope and have a "rappel line" for the climber to go down (lowering over a harsh edge ain't good), so the active climbing end of the rope is only loaded in the event of a 2nd's fall...

So if the guide was going down to coach, I would think he would go down the fixed side, maybe he went down the delay strand to be able to still belay her while below... still how would he pull the 3rd client off if the rope cut above him... and if it cut above the 3rd guy on top that means it cut back the edge? What the hell cut the rope there?... I can't picture this at all...
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: Admin Al on June 18, 2013, 10:24:57 pm
Jon Tierney  islander511 • a day ago
June 16, 2013

It is with deep sadness that Acadia Mountain Guides, Inc. reports a climbing accident in Acadia National Park on the morning of June 15 in the vicinity of Otter Cliffs at Acadia National Park. Two people were injured in the accident and were taken to Maine Coast Memorial Hospital for further evaluation and treatment. They were treated and released today.

We have notified the families and we will do everything
possible to support the injured parties and their family members.

All of us at Acadia Mountain Guides are distraught by this incident. It is the first significant accident in a twenty year history of guiding in Acadia National Park for Acadia Mountain Guides Climbing School. The accident
will be thoroughly reviewed both internally and externally in hopes of further preventing future incidents.

I would like to thank the NPS rangers, MDI Volunteer Search and Rescue, Bar Harbor FD, Eli Simon from ACS and the many guides from Acadia Mountain Guides who provided care and participated in the rescue.

Sincerely,

Jon Tierney
Internationally Licensed IFMGA Mountain Guide
Owner, Acadia Mountain Guides, Inc.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: Jean Goldsborough on June 25, 2013, 05:33:15 pm
Has anyone heard anything more on this accident yet?
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: Admin Al on June 25, 2013, 10:32:56 pm
No and I wonder if we will...
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: JakeDatc on June 26, 2013, 12:07:02 am
at least they admitted to making a mistake.  unlike those Ascent of honor clowns who pretend nothing went wrong.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: David_G48 on June 26, 2013, 02:43:18 am
I don't see an admission of guilt. It specifically states that it is being reviewed both internally and externally. Even if they are guilty of not following accepted industry practices I doubt they will admit it because under the rules of subjugation an insurance company is not liable to pay for the incident if the insured states that they are guilty. Before we come to any conclusions we should wait for the full facts if they ever come out. It is obvious something went wrong but the cause has yet to be determined.
Wishing a speedy recovery to the injured parties.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: JakeDatc on June 26, 2013, 08:49:26 am
i guess just that they are looking into it is something.. the other guys tried to play it off like it never happened.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: lucky luke on June 26, 2013, 08:27:47 pm
I don't see an admission of guilt.

there is two part to assume some one is guilty: the act and the intention. Here it is clear that the guide want to help the lower climber to climb. As he was on the rope, I assume that he didn`t commit a suicide: intention to be hurt by doing some thing wrong.

If you do some thing, be hurt in doing so and you follow accepted industry practices...who is guilty?

The principal idea in climbing is to climb safe: it is not to follow accepted industry practices in my opinion.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DLottmann on June 27, 2013, 09:31:01 am
The principal idea in climbing is to climb safe: it is not to follow accepted industry practices in my opinion.

I would say one does not exclude the other, though “industry standards” are sometimes “over safe” in a recreational setting. Someone who is guiding professionally is wise to follow “standards” to protect themselves if something un-foreseen occurs.

I do hope some info can be shared to help the community as a whole without negatively effecting Jon’s company.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: lucky luke on June 27, 2013, 10:17:57 am
I would say one does not exclude the other, though “industry standards” are sometimes “over safe” in a recreational setting.

When I was with new climber and bring them to the cliff, I used to say: " I am firm with you but the rock is harder" (in French, the words hard or firm is used with two meaning: - "firm" meaning that I place you in situation that you must get out without knowing if you are in danger or not...- "firm, hard", meaning that when you fall on the rock you will be injure.

at an ethic point of view, learning how to get out of a dangerous situation is better to learn with a guide who protect you them to learn in over safe place and realize alone in a cliff that you are in danger or felt to your death

at a commercial level, I admit that there is client who practice climbing at a recreational level who don't have time and interest in knowing there safety. They can use bolt and guide. I also admit that there is teenager and young men attract by the challenge of climbing like Joe cote, SA, Base, Jim Surette, etc and need to be supervised by a mentor in less than safe route to gradually learned safety in real situation before learning how to play on rock like children play in a park with all the rules of it. 

 
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: M_Sprague on June 28, 2013, 01:25:57 pm
Maybe they read something on NEClimbs with their cell phone and decided to fling themselves off the top.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DGoguen on June 29, 2013, 10:54:47 am
Maybe they read something on NEClimbs with their cell phone and decided to fling themselves off the top.

Judging by how upset people get, I would think spontaneous human combustion would be more likely.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: Admin Al on June 29, 2013, 01:04:55 pm
Maybe they read something on NEClimbs with their cell phone and decided to fling themselves off the top.

LOL
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: Jean Goldsborough on July 03, 2013, 09:38:25 pm
Why is this funny? Why is an accident with injuries worthy of this type of "humor"?
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DLottmann on July 03, 2013, 09:42:03 pm
Why is this funny? Why is an accident with injuries worthy of this type of "humor"?

I would suggest PM’ing the site owner if you have a complaint.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: darwined on July 04, 2013, 05:52:35 am
Why is this funny? Why is an accident with injuries worthy of this type of "humor"?

Lighten up. ::)
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: xcrag_corex on July 06, 2013, 09:45:09 am
Why is this funny? Why is an accident with injuries worthy of this type of "humor"?
it appears the joke is not aimed at the accident and more so on how the site works on a portable device. Lift leg, grab stick, remove.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: old_school on July 06, 2013, 05:11:30 pm
We were there for four days following the incident...and to say guides and climbers alike were tight lipped would be an understatement. I have gone over this scenario over and over and it all points to anchor failure IMHO. Sure glad that everyone is going to be ok. We climbed next to the site of the accident and that is a looooong way down.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: bennybrew on July 06, 2013, 10:27:05 pm
We were there for four days following the incident...and to say guides and climbers alike were tight lipped would be an understatement. I have gone over this scenario over and over and it all points to anchor failure IMHO. Sure glad that everyone is going to be ok. We climbed next to the site of the accident and that is a looooong way down.

we came across a guide and asked him about it.

me: you know anything about the accident at otter cliffs?

guide: no.


i think it should be like a m & m conference at a hospital: sort of a trial, not to place blame but to learn what happened and how to prevent it.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DLottmann on July 06, 2013, 11:17:18 pm
We were there for four days following the incident...and to say guides and climbers alike were tight lipped would be an understatement. I have gone over this scenario over and over and it all points to anchor failure IMHO. Sure glad that everyone is going to be ok. We climbed next to the site of the accident and that is a looooong way down.

we came across a guide and asked him about it.

me: you know anything about the accident at otter cliffs?

guide: no.


i think it should be like a m & m conference at a hospital: sort of a trial, not to place blame but to learn what happened and how to prevent it.

Sure, if we didn't live in such a litigious society. It's a shame but a guide service being totally opened to what happened could be quite detrimental. I really dislike how ridiculous we (Americans) are when it comes to litigation. One if the biggest wastes of tax payer $.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: markvnh on July 07, 2013, 07:38:07 am
I agree with D-Man. Too many lawyers and we're too litigious. I believe a main problem with health care costs is everybody is always ready to sue doctors, hospitals, etc as soon as something goes wrong - and there's always a lawyer knocking on the door. We need tort reform.

Ok - back to the thread - it's really is too bad that we can't find out more as I'm sure there's some good lessons to be learned.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: pappy on July 07, 2013, 09:05:23 am
We were there for four days following the incident...and to say guides and climbers alike were tight lipped would be an understatement. I have gone over this scenario over and over and it all points to anchor failure IMHO. Sure glad that everyone is going to be ok. We climbed next to the site of the accident and that is a looooong way down.

we came across a guide and asked him about it.

me: you know anything about the accident at otter cliffs?

guide: no.


i think it should be like a m & m conference at a hospital: sort of a trial, not to place blame but to learn what happened and how to prevent it.

Sure, if we didn't live in such a litigious society. It's a shame but a guide service being totally opened to what happened could be quite detrimental. I really dislike how ridiculous we (Americans) are when it comes to litigation. One if the biggest wastes of tax payer $.

Loser pays all legal fees: problem solved.

One of the good things about the 'Great Recession' (the '80 recession was actually much worse) is that there are a lot more unemployed lawyers.

I've also always been of the opinion that as a community we shun if not actually beat the snot out of anyone who would sue over a climbing accident. Shit happens.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: eyebolter on July 07, 2013, 04:40:21 pm
Loser pays all legal fees: problem solved.


It would certainly solve the "problem" for huge corporations, lol.  I agree that lawyers are a problem, but who would ever sue Exon Mobil if they faced a 100 million dollar fee for their corporate legal team?

Back OT, if the problem is anchor failure I'm guessing it was unpadded slings over the edge.  All the anchors there are bomber, with the exception of the gallery that always wigged me out   TRing off a small tricam and friend on the sea stack, I always backed it up on the mainland but was never happy with it.  Everything else there is anchors 101.

But maybe we'll never know.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: sneoh on July 07, 2013, 07:06:16 pm
Eric has been up at Acadia all week.  We will have to see/hear if he learnt more about this accident.

Ward - Steve Pinto had the TR anchors for The Gallery and the climbing totally wired BITD.  The gear was a little funky but the result was bomber (three pieces I think).  We would belay from the main land.  Again, pretty funky but works good.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DLottmann on July 07, 2013, 07:52:24 pm
Plenty of speculation, but all accounts indicate that the anchor did not fail. The rope that held the guide and the male client was severed. How this happened, I do not have a clear picture of, though I have a couple scenarios that could have occurred.

An assumption of mine, is the guide may have been counter balancing off the male client when rappelling to assist. If the rope was cut above him, but below the anchor, and the male client was leaning back on the opposite end, this could have caused both to fall as the cut rope ran through the master point. This is pure speculation, and only based off what has been reported in the papers.

Perhaps we will find out more when any possible statute of limitations runs out or those involved are out of harms way from litigation.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: Admin Al on July 08, 2013, 07:57:06 am
I doubt that this incident will be covered in AINAM this year... (sigh)
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: OldEric on July 08, 2013, 09:50:14 am
Eric has been up at Acadia all week.  We will have to see/hear if he learnt more about this accident.

Ward - Steve Pinto had the TR anchors for The Gallery and the climbing totally wired BITD.  The gear was a little funky but the result was bomber (three pieces I think).  We would belay from the main land.  Again, pretty funky but works good.

Nothing new really.  An official statement will be made when all the investigations are done (months?)
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: lucky luke on July 09, 2013, 02:42:46 pm
I doubt that this incident will be covered in AINAM this year... (sigh)

I doubt too.

Before, I red AINAM to know what I should do to prevent a similar situation. Today, I read AINAM by curiosity. Will they said who is guilty? It is not just lawyers who are guilty, but also those who point every mistake that other did to promote their own capacity to climb in a kindergarden.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DLottmann on July 09, 2013, 03:25:53 pm
I’ve read almost every issue of AINAM from 1946 to this year. I’ve always found them a valuable learning tool, and continue to do so.

Anyone who doesn’t think we can’t learn from other’s mistakes and still be respectful is missing out.

EDIT: I wish my kindergarden had climbing
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: JBro on July 09, 2013, 04:54:29 pm
I doubt too.

Before, I red AINAM to know what I should do to prevent a similar situation. Today, I read AINAM by curiosity. Will they said who is guilty? It is not just lawyers who are guilty, but also those who point every mistake that other did to promote their own capacity to climb in a kindergarden.

(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee20/LostOstrich/ohyou.jpg)
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: xcrag_corex on July 09, 2013, 04:58:21 pm
I don't even NEED to check the Weather anymore..... I can tell what it's like outside due to thread responses. Hahaha.
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: DLottmann on July 09, 2013, 05:04:26 pm
JBrochu, I love that portrait GIF, or what ever... is that original Sega or Nintendo, I remember that hockey game as mind blowing LOL... Cam Neely was fast as shit...
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: islander511 on July 17, 2013, 10:28:18 pm
It's happened again, I'm sorry to report. Another Acadia Mountain Guides accident today, this time a guide was very seriously injured in a fall (early report is he rapped off his rope 1/2 way down Old Town) at the South Wall, and was Life Flighted to Bangor. Sounds like severe injuries. Sure hope he pulls through.

http://fenceviewer.com/site/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=81898:climbing-guide-seriously-hurt-in-fall&Itemid=938

Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: xcrag_corex on July 18, 2013, 12:32:48 am
You would figure all their guides would be super focused after that last accident. This can't be good for their outfit. Wishing a speedy, full recovery to the injured guide.   :(
Title: Re: Acadia Accident Sunday
Post by: markvnh on July 18, 2013, 08:51:39 am
In regards to the original accident - a friend of mine was climbing in Acadia a couple weeks ago and was told that "the rope anchor failed from rubbing back and forth over the edge as the guide was giving encouragement to the climber on the TR." I guess in my mind from this it appears there might have been one anchor and two ropes from that anchor - the one the client was TR'ing on and the one the guide was probably on rappel giving encouragement. I can see how that failure might happen in that situation. With that - its still speculation and we will only really know if there is an actual report that comes out.

And lets hope the guide from the most recent accident has a speedy and full recovery.