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General => Beginners Area => Topic started by: lucky luke on August 12, 2013, 10:16:35 am

Title: reading a route
Post by: lucky luke on August 12, 2013, 10:16:35 am
>Many times I watch a climber get on the wall, be it a boulder problem or a route, and storm up a few moves only to stop and begin poking forward with their nose, straining in one position trying to figure out where the hell to go next. Often this results in a sequence-botching, a wasted use of energy, and a defeated plummet to terra firma. Then they get right back on and do it again.>

Find that description on internet. My question is: reading a route correctly, without any fall at a first time, is it a beginer or a advance climber skill?
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DaveR on August 12, 2013, 11:33:56 am
I read this forum.


I climb Routes! ;)
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: sneoh on August 12, 2013, 12:05:35 pm
Good route reading is a skill we should all get better at all the time starting with Beginners. 
I do not think one can ever say I have all the route reading skills I will ever need.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: perswig on August 12, 2013, 01:10:57 pm
>Many times I watch a climber get on the wall, be it a boulder problem or a route, and storm up a few moves only to stop and begin poking forward with their nose, straining in one position trying to figure out where the hell to go next. Often this results in a sequence-botching, a wasted use of energy, and a defeated plummet to terra firma. Then they get right back on and do it again.>

Dude, have you been following me around?  (Well, except for the bouldering thing - my Mom said bouldering leads to hairy palms.  And sport climbing.  I don't wanna risk it.)
Dale

(dammit, I just replied to a LL post)
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DLottmann on August 12, 2013, 07:54:17 pm
It's a advanced beginner intermediate skill
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: lucky luke on August 12, 2013, 08:58:07 pm
It's a advanced beginner intermediate skill

best ever answer dave.

A+
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DLottmann on August 12, 2013, 10:10:11 pm
OK, I’ll be serious. To answer your question without the well painted set-up:

"My question is: reading a route correctly, without any fall at a first time, is it a beginer or a advance climber skill?”

Beginner’s suck at reading routes. They constantly try to find a better hand-hold when we all know climbing is with the feet. As we progress to “intermediates” we figure that out. We no longer think “where’s the next handhold”, rather “how do I get my foot on that?”... That is the first epiphany. The rest is just trying to figure out how to use our feet better and on small holds... how to conserve energy, rest when we should, go when we should... etc...

Your question, like many you pose here, is impossible to answer because you leave two black & white answers. Beginner or advanced? Most climbers, especially those who are most active in these forums, are in between... they are not sport or trad, they are not guide or recreational... they are climbers... and for them... “reading a route correctly” is not in their vocab... but improving one’s route finding abilities is a great part of climbing.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DaveR on August 12, 2013, 10:59:52 pm
It's a advanced beginner intermediate skill

best ever answer dave.

A+

Does he get a gold star on his forehead? :P
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: slink on August 13, 2013, 05:52:25 am
It is easy to answer.  Sport climbing grab the chalked up holds. Crack climbing jam fingers,hands, feet or what ever else fits in the crack. Here is the hard one slab and steep face with trad gear. If you can not see any of the holds you can not read the route at least from below.Sometimes you start out saying that looks hard and good holds show up and others well they are hard. Even beginners read routes they just do not know it.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: lucky luke on August 13, 2013, 10:15:03 am
If you can not see any of the holds you can not read the route at least from below.Sometimes you start out saying that looks hard and good holds show up and others well they are hard. Even beginners read routes they just do not know it.

To answer dman, they are beginer, intermediate, advance and expert climber in trad (see old climbing book)

One can see the hole with there eyes, other with there hands. A good 5.11 climber (expert) will feel the hole with his hand and took the best of them. An advance climber will also be able to look at where the route go, as intermediate, the lack of technique will be more crucial than where to go. A beginer don't climb 5.11 slab ordinarly

There is also route finding in an overhang!!!

But as a beginer, who try a route fall and do it again to finally arrive at the top of the hill: are they 5.10 because they make a route with ten fall???
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: eyebolter on August 13, 2013, 07:52:54 pm
Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy.   A kiddleat ivy too wouldn't you?

Sorry, I've posted this before in response to a LL question but it still seems appropriate.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DLottmann on August 13, 2013, 08:12:59 pm

There is also route finding in an overhang!!!

But as a beginer, who try a route fall and do it again to finally arrive at the top of the hill: are they 5.10 because they make a route with ten fall???

You drive me crazy. No shit there is route-finding when climbing overhangs. No epiphany there so why 3 exclamation marks???!!!

Someone who falls ten times on a 5.10 isn’t walking around saying they red-pointed a 5.10, so what exactly are you asking?

I’m quite confident no one knows what you are really trying to get at...
Title: !
Post by: lucky luke on August 13, 2013, 10:26:07 pm
Someone who falls ten times on a 5.10 isn’t walking around saying they red-pointed a 5.10, so what exactly are you asking?

Oh! you felt ten time, climb the next day without a fall and you can walk saying they red point a 5.10!!!

Are they advance route finding climber? If they know the route, make all the move, they don't do route finding, they do memory training???

Isn't it?

odessey of an artichoke, second pitch or fugue at Canon two overhang.  One is tricky move to the right and the other is a counter force in a corner. missing link and lancelot at cathedral, the book... I did it at a 5.10 rating in the book iof ed webser!!! those who on-sight the prow!!!

How did you say that? no shit there is route finding in overhang!!!

I am super lucky!!!
 
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: sneoh on August 13, 2013, 10:30:15 pm
By definition, redpoint means mostly climbing a route "by memory" with little route-finding/reading left to do.  Not sure if this comes across as a revelation to anyone except Champ.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DLottmann on August 13, 2013, 10:31:46 pm
Your question: Are they "advanced route finding climber" because they worked the route prior to a red-point?

My answer: Who cares, glad they finally figured it out.

What's the point of this conversation again?

Yes... On-sight flash beats red-point after rehearsal...

moving on...
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: M_Sprague on August 14, 2013, 07:52:29 am
Maybe a better question would be "How can beginners, intermediates and experts improve their route reading skills?" Obviously lots of onsite climbing is paramount, but coaches have developed specific exercises.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: Admin Al on August 14, 2013, 09:12:29 am
Maybe a better question would be "How can beginners, intermediates and experts improve their route reading skills?" Obviously lots of onsite climbing is paramount, but coaches have developed specific exercises.

+

So what are those exercises?
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: M_Sprague on August 14, 2013, 10:26:15 am
Visualization for one. Visualize as much of the climbing sequence as you can, through your whole body, imagining your balance and weight shifts. I think down climbing helps you become aware of your whole body more, especially keeping your weight on your feet, which give you more of a repertoire for visualizing. 30 minute workouts (climbing for 30 minutes straight without a rest on terrain that is easy enough that you don't get pumped out) on lots of different routes builds your repertoire of movement quickly too. If you have done the move 50 times already you can visualize a similar one more easily.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: David_G48 on August 14, 2013, 01:51:54 pm
Yes, Mr. Sprague reps are good for you young folks who can remember things. Two days in a row I once did the same route at City of Rocks and commented on how excellent it was when someone told me that I had said the same thing about the same route the day before. I think that could count as 2 onsights. Back to your original statement....remind me again what we were talking about.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: M_Sprague on August 14, 2013, 01:56:14 pm
I have no idea.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: lucky luke on August 14, 2013, 09:28:07 pm
Maybe a better question would be "How can beginners, intermediates and experts improve their route reading skills?" Obviously lots of onsite climbing is paramount, but coaches have developed specific exercises.

+

So what are those exercises?

All, I didn't even say that sport climber try a route and fall many times isn't it???

 

Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: lucky luke on August 14, 2013, 09:41:09 pm
Visualization for one. [...} If you have done the move 50 times already you can visualize a similar one more easily.

As I like safety, I won't say how I can visualize a move in an overhang where the hold his out of sight?

Oh! I rap from the top so I can visualize the hold and told every body that I onsight the move from bottom up as bottom down didn't count!!!

More seriously, knowing our technique is important. To do an overhang, you have to know how to do a "retablissement" (in French forget the name in English). So, you can anticipate the move, take a look and try the move after for the good or the bad. One can say that a good aid courses will help here because pro can be as hard to place as in an A-3. Reading the route is also reading where to place pro where you can and need it.

Serious climber know that when you repeat a move 50 times, you know how to make that move. if you go in a gym and move one hold of six inches at each try for one technique, you will know the limit of your skill to do that technique.

I can be very strong at crack climbing and weak at face. In a route finding situation, the decision to try a crack or a face will change all the technique...and the rating. Today a lot of climber change the rating of a route because they try to adapt the route to there technique and they don't adapt there route finding to the rock.

 

 
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DLottmann on August 14, 2013, 10:07:58 pm
Only guidebook authors "change the rating".

So it felt harder to you because you are better at <insert> (face/crack/slab/sport/trad/overhangs) etc... doesn't change the grade.

I am convinced there is no one else in the world who thinks about these things as deeply as you do Champ/LL.

M_Sprague's comments about visualization are useful and relevant...

The rest of this thread just proves we all have way too much free time on our hands...
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: sneoh on August 14, 2013, 11:25:44 pm
As I like safety, I won't say how I can visualize a move in an overhang where the hold is out of sight?

This where experience, practice, visualization, and confidence all come into play. 
If you are not in an FA situation and if the route is 5.9 G/PG rated, you know there has to be good holds to place gear from and to make upward progress.  So you get a good piece in, suck it up, look for holds intelligently, and move upward.  Again, none of this should be epiphany to anyone. I feel silly for even typing it out.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DGoguen on August 15, 2013, 10:53:04 am
To do an overhang, you have to know how to do a "retablissement" (in French forget the name in English).
In English it's restoration or recovery.
I assume you mean go up check it out, down climb, shake out and give it another go.
Around here, assumptions are dangerous. Ha
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: lucky luke on August 15, 2013, 02:12:29 pm
To do an overhang, you have to know how to do a "retablissement" (in French forget the name in English).
In English it's restoration or recovery.
I assume you mean go up check it out, down climb, shake out and give it another go.
Around here, assumptions are dangerous. Ha

No DG,  it is not recovery. It is when you take a look with your hand to find good hold over the overhang, find some thing, throw your leg on the edge of the roof, turn your body over the overhang and push with the lower leg and try to find a rest. Moby grape roof, third pitch I think, is an example of that. More spectacular is dolomite wall...but I avoided the roof to climb on the right side. I had carpal tunel problem at those time. Not use very often.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: OldEric on August 15, 2013, 03:05:10 pm
To do an overhang, you have to know how to do a "retablissement" (in French forget the name in English).
In English it's restoration or recovery.
I assume you mean go up check it out, down climb, shake out and give it another go.
Around here, assumptions are dangerous. Ha

No DG,  it is not recovery. It is when you take a look with your hand to find good hold over the overhang, find some thing, throw your leg on the edge of the roof, turn your body over the overhang and push with the lower leg and try to find a rest. Moby grape roof, third pitch I think, is an example of that. More spectacular is dolomite wall...but I avoided the roof to climb on the right side. I had carpal tunel problem at those time. Not use very often.

retable (= mantle)
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: DGoguen on August 15, 2013, 03:18:29 pm
No DG,  it is not recovery. It is when you take a look with your hand to find good hold over the overhang, find some thing, throw your leg on the edge of the roof, turn your body over the overhang and push with the lower leg and try to find a rest.

O.K. We'll go with number 4

masculine noun
1. [de paix] restoring ⇒ Le gouvernement a donné la priorité au rétablissement de la paix dans la région. The government has given priority to restoring peace in the region.
2. [de personne] recovery
3.(gymnastics) pull-up
4. It is when you take a look with your hand to find good hold over the overhang, find some thing, throw your leg on the edge of the roof, turn your body over the overhang and push with the lower leg and try to find a rest.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: lucky luke on August 15, 2013, 10:07:50 pm
retable (= mantle)

Yes mantle.

Here an expert example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpeylGfmkW4

a lot of them are easier.

Dave: you know now why I don't translate my text with a computer.
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: JakeDatc on August 16, 2013, 12:47:30 am

Dave: you know now why I don't translate my text with a computer.

What do we use to translate your gibberish?  (charabia)
Title: Re: reading a route
Post by: M_Sprague on August 19, 2013, 12:07:20 pm
Your brain