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General => Beginners Area => Topic started by: lucky luke on September 30, 2013, 10:07:47 PM

Title: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on September 30, 2013, 10:07:47 PM
I went to Yosemite and I climbed with boulder climbers. I thought that they are not good trad climber and found three reasons not to boulder before learning trad. I know that I will have stupid answer on that post and I hope that you will answer the question who follow: What can you say to have a better understanding of the idea below? 

a- the rope is very important in trad. not because it is safe, but because it is a link between you and your partner. When you  begin to climb, you are apprehensive about the fall and you learn to trust your partner. As in boulder there is no rope, the importance of the second, of a good belayer, is not so intense. A crash bad is better than a belayer. I was looking at an old, as old as me, trad climber and saw how much he take care of the rope. how he communicate with his second, moving with him in the hard part and congratulation him, in the exact good time. In trad, the climber are more partner and both people most go to the summit. In boulder, the situation is more a competition to do the move first or just to make it to be in a group. In fact I think that it is important to have that confidence with a belayer and be aware that they are good and bad belayer and that nobody like to be belay in a same way.

b- In a trad fall, you are stop by the rope. It is not always a clean fall and beginner always knock there knees or bruises there skin on the rock because the rope drag them. As they are beginner and climb easy stuff, they learned how to protect themselves in a fall. That process can be long and after many fall with the rope, you can evaluate the distance of a fall and the direction and protect yourself adequately. In boulder, you are always at your limit and fall on your leg or on a crash pad. There is no rope and the position of the body is thinking only in the sense of doing the move, not falling as a beginner do in trad.

c- the third reason is a little less evident. As you climb a route, you conquer a wall, you test your limit and you learn to, in the presence of an immediate danger, the fall, you learn how to control your nerve, how to control the stress.. In some case, the stress can be so hight that the person can not do the move. In boulder, in general and for beginner climber, the danger of a fall is not very important and very close to the ground. So one can be completely concentrate on doing the move without fear. As you progress in trad, your partner, as a belayer is a part of your success. You evaluate the risk and consequences of a fall and decide if you can take the risk of doing a move depending where you place your pro. Each climb is a test for you, it could be a run out in 5.7 or an easy 5.11 with a crack and a piece of pro at each five inches. Your goal is to test your limit emotionally and physically. As a boulder climber, you are doing a move to the perfect execution. You are not testing your limit, but you are pushing your limit.

Good or bad? it is not the question. If you think that you can do a route that you never did, know how to fall with a rope and the consequemces of the fall and that you are with a good partner...it is possible that you trad climb.   
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Admin Al on October 01, 2013, 06:41:47 AM
So I guess the question is:

Are people who start climbing by bouldering at a disadvantage from those who start by learning trad because the trad climbers understand the consequences of their actions better?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on October 01, 2013, 08:35:40 AM
I know a number of people that do all types of climbing who got hurt badly bouldering (mostly lower limbs).
So I guess there could possibly be this mentality "if I survived 5 seasons of high ball bouldering without a scratch, how dangerous can climbing with a rope and gear be?".
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: ed_esmond on October 01, 2013, 08:49:18 AM
lucky opines: " In boulder, in general and for beginner climber, the danger of a fall is not very important and very close to the ground. "

this statement makes me think he hasn't done much bouldering (or know very much about it...)

it may surprise him that 'highball" bouldering and "VBL" (which doesn't stand for "vapor barrier layer....") is a BIG part of the bouldering tradition.

in general, it's usually dangerous to make sweeping generalities from a limited number of observations, but it's something he's good at...

ed e

ps. lucky, if you find that you are getting a lot of "stupid answer on that post,"  perhaps it's because your  post is "stupid..."

pps. al, do you think someone doing a "full-on dyno" 15ft above a single crash pad won't understand the consequence of their action?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: strandman on October 01, 2013, 09:33:25 AM
I thought you went with climbers from BOULDER.. they might have been waterlogged
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Pete Jackson on October 01, 2013, 10:33:53 AM
Good or bad? it is not the question. If you think that you can do a route that you never did, know how to fall with a rope and the consequemces of the fall and that you are with a good partner...it is possible that you trad climb.

TLDR: After soloing, trad climbing is the hardest, most encumbered, most involved, most dangerous kind of climbing. It's also the easiest kind of climbing to learn improperly. In hindsight, I wish I had started by bouldering, so that I could have broken an ankle and developed a healthy respect for the rock, and potentially have alerted my parents that I needed proper instruction.

The long story:

I started climbing as a teenager 23 years ago by trad climbing. There were not too many other climbers to learn from in suburban Maryland, and bouldering wasn't really a big thing in those days. So my friend Bob and I taught ourselves by reading an outdated, worn copy of FoTH that we got from the library (and we didn't read it closely enough: read on).

On our first climb, I tied in to a static rope with a bowline-on-the-colon and placed (poorly) a few nuts that had been improperly slung by Hudson Trail Outfitters with accessory cord instead of spectra or wire. For our route, we chose and sent a 5.5 at Great Falls, where local knowledge expressly recommends against placing nuts on the lead since the rock doesn't hold pro very well. This, while wearing rigid hiking boots. My partner gave me a sweet hip-belay that may have prevented me from being cut in half by the rope had I taken a fall. He maintained that excellent belay even after I dropped a number 13 stopper directly on to his head while fiddling with it in a flared crack. After reaching the top, I found myself a solid seated belay position and braced myself and hip-belayed my partner to the top, without even slinging the dead tree for an anchor.   

In short, we're lucky we survived our first climbing adventure. By all accounts, we made so many life-threatening mistakes that it is only by pure dumb luck that I tell you this story today.

On our second climbing adventure, we visited Ilchester Crag in MD, where a local who was bouldering took one look at our rack and gear and said, "What the F*CK are you doing? You're going to get yourself killed!" He snipped the accessory cord off my stoppers, relegated my static rope to top-rope anchor use, gave me a tube-style belay device, and taught us a few things that kept us safe for many years that followed.

It doesn't matter whether you start by bouldering, trad climbing, or sport climbing. Education, Qualified Instruction, and Patience are the most important ingredients to building an adequate skill set. To learn trad climbing, you must have all three traits, and few climbers fit the bill when they start out.

EDIT:  This was the route. http://mountainproject.com/v/dark-corner/107508872 (http://mountainproject.com/v/dark-corner/107508872). Took me all morning to find it.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Admin Al on October 01, 2013, 10:50:38 AM
It doesn't matter whether you start by bouldering, trad climbing, or sport climbing. Education, Qualified Instruction, and Patience are the most important ingredients to building an adequate skill set. To learn trad climbing, you must have all three traits, and few climbers fit the bill when they start out.

+++
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: pappy on October 01, 2013, 11:45:12 AM
There's nothing wrong with accessory cord on nuts; we did that for a long time with no ill effects. I do like the image of a bowline on a colon though--you can't scare the shit out of yourself.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Pete Jackson on October 01, 2013, 11:56:17 AM
There's nothing wrong with accessory cord on nuts; we did that for a long time with no ill effects.

The stuff I was using was too thin. I didn't make that obvious enough. It was suitable for shoelace material, but not much else!
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on October 01, 2013, 12:38:05 PM
...
in general, it's usually dangerous to make sweeping generalities from a limited number of observations, but it's something he's good at...

This. Reading about John Gill might change your opinions some LL.

I think there is no "perfect" way to enter climbing. Whether you start in a gym, bouldering, trad, sport, ice, what ever... but the more varied you enjoy the sport the more well rounded of a climber you'll be. The more you focus on one discipline the more specialized you'll be.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on October 01, 2013, 04:49:57 PM
...
in general, it's usually dangerous to make sweeping generalities from a limited number of observations, but it's something he's good at...

This. Reading about John Gill might change your opinions some LL.

I think there is no "perfect" way to enter climbing. Whether you start in a gym, bouldering, trad, sport, ice, what ever... but the more varied you enjoy the sport the more well rounded of a climber you'll be.
++++++++.  Nuff said.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on October 01, 2013, 06:54:58 PM
So I guess the question is:

Are people who start climbing by bouldering at a disadvantage from those who start by learning trad because the trad climbers understand the consequences of their actions better?

No, it is not the question. You wrote it as if trad climber are better than bouldering. The question is more a do you think at...?

In the story of Pete Jackson, he mentioned the presence of his partner: "He maintained that excellent belay even after I dropped a number 13 stopper directly on to his head while fiddling with it in a flared crack" The behavior to keep belaying your partner even if you are in the drop line is some thing very important in trad. A lot of you, who wrote, will, strangely, suggest to avoid placing an anchor at the bottom of a route to be able to move away, risking to pull your partner out of stance, if your leader drop some think. You save your life, and, after, the life of your partner if you are  not at risk.

Individualist comportment, as thinking that bouldering is not different than trad, is a social part of climbing. Think at yourself first. Climb a boulder. and, if you can't use a crash pad, use a grigri or, if you can't do it differently, climb with a partner. I think that in bouldering, the movement is more important than the social behavior. I don't judge any person, I think that people who work with public can find a way to relax from the crowd by doing bouldering.

In trad, we suggest to anchor your partner on the first pitch. The way you choose the anchor is for the protection of both person, the way the leader climb is to avoid to drop any thing on his belayer as his life depends of a good belay. Except from boulder climber, one of them pull the rope as I was leading, I never think that my partner will do deliberate think to stop my progression on the cliff. I think that beginning with a rope and good instruction is better because the trad climber are immediately in that mood that he most do his job correctly for the team as he will have to climb after and the other will belay him.

For the second statement on why to avoid bouldering if you want to trad, Pete Jackson state that he rather broke his ankle ( I wish I had started by bouldering, so that I could have broken an ankle and developed a healthy respect for the rock) than meet a local who: " taught us a few things that kept us safe for many years that followed."  What I wrote is to learn by top roping to fall few feet, climbing in pendulum and making short fall, hurting your knees, etc. It is some thing that all beginner do...in 5.6, 5.7 move. Before they know how o do hard move on the grounds. In Ed_Esmond, he cited me (In boulder, in general and for beginner climber, the danger of a fall is not very important and very close to the ground). After that he explain that a beginner do " 'highball" bouldering and "VBL" at his first days of climbing and, for that reason...I don't know about bouldering. Just thinking that after 25 years of climbing I don't know the difference between a beginner who learn to climb and highball climber is a good demonstration of how individualism can be a boulder climber.

Finaly the last statement is about how you test your knowledge and ability. In top roping, a beginner will have to use the rope and will find some people around to show the good way to climb safe.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Pete Jackson on October 01, 2013, 10:45:49 PM
I think I understand better now. Are you saying that starting out climbing by focusing heavily on bouldering develops an individualistic attitude that may not serve one well later when the climber learns roped climbing?

I'd buy that argument, maybe.

But I would also say that there is no way to learn all of the right skills in the right order, while maintaining a perfect attitude the whole time. There are merits to each path one might take to becoming a well-rounded climber, and I don't presume to know nearly enough to tell you which sequence is the best. I suspect it varies by climber, availability of rock, partners, education, and dedication.

I also think that no matter which path a climber takes, they'll make mistakes along the way, over-develop some skills at the expense of others, and fail to pick up certain important lessons that others would have learned far earlier.  Experience in varied types of climbing, learned over the course of many years is the only real path to mastery.

I stand by my assertion that l wish I'd started out bouldering: I'd have been a way stronger climber when it became time to focus on placing gear. And I would have avoided undue risk that I wasn't aware of at the time I was taking it.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on October 01, 2013, 11:31:52 PM
Oh no, for the most part these days, bouldering is very "social".  Sometimes it is the only way to keep oneself from breaking an ankle.  My guess is Champ has not bouldered much in the past 10 years.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on October 02, 2013, 12:10:58 AM
[...] Are you saying that starting out climbing by focusing heavily on bouldering develops an individualistic attitude that may not serve one well later when the climber learns roped climbing?

[...] I also think that no matter which path a climber takes, they'll make mistakes along the way, over-develop some skills at the expense of others, and fail to pick up certain important lessons that others would have learned far earlier.  Experience in varied types of climbing, learned over the course of many years is the only real path to mastery. [...]

I buy that two statement above too. My background is in swimming. I was a backstroke swimmer, which explain my strength on the shoulder. I was also a lifeguard. I worked eight years as an aid nurse and saw many accident very grave and death many time. So, I am very concerned about safety. As a backstroke swimmer, I also learned front crawl, breaststroke and butterfly. But I never ever call me a butterfly swimmer because it is all the same. My training and time spend on each technique was oriented to backstroke.

It is also what I am saying when bouldering can develop and individualistic attitude by the ethic and result of the game. You are not summiting the Everest!!! You are doing a problem harder than the other do. What you are looking from the group is not a partnership relation in a team, it is an emulation. Emulation is a kind of competition between the kid to keep control of them. Ordinarly, the humiliation of being not able to do the move, to be a numb (creating that environment of individualistic attitude), is the greatest motivation for many people. 

So, I think that the path for the people to climb trad is not to do boulder the first and second year. They most learn to be partner first and self rescue each other...and enjoy to be together in a great adventure. To do a move by friendship. I most say that we had two cliff, in Quebec, very close together. I go to the easier one, look at the kid climbing, try to imitate them, and go to the other cliff to test my ability... come back to the first cliff and boulder the problem to be able to do the move on the second cliff. Yes I think that this path is more the one of a trad climber, as much as climbing 5.9 as beginner is more a path for bouldering and more individualistic attitude.   
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: punxnotdead on October 03, 2013, 10:59:01 AM
Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick! Who gives a flying F()@&
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: frik on October 03, 2013, 11:52:37 AM
.....three reasons to ignore lucky........although this thread is about the 50th
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on October 03, 2013, 02:16:55 PM
.....three reasons [...]although this thread is about the 50th

It is because you don't understand two or three differences. First, trad is no more an ethic superior to the other, it is just a kind of practice where and advance climber have the skill to onsight 5.9 - 5.10. So, a 5.9 climber on trad is not a beginer. In boulder he is a beginer. And if an hightball boluder use what he had learned to climb a high ball boulder in a trad route...we are able to see many mistake that we can associate with the kind of accident that we saw actually in north america.

Second, we, me and also other person, define path to be a trad climber, and path to be a boulder climber and path to be a sport climber and path to be an aid climber.

The overall conclusion is that if we want that people choose which path they want, we must teach the difference between each ethic and the goal.

This is different than just saying that it is different.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: krankonthis on October 31, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
you have a very antiquated view of climbing luke. people do it all these days.  I don't define myself In one disciple of climbing. I go sport, trad, bouldering, ice and alpine  climbing and know a lot of people that do the same.  lots of climbers are moving beyond your definitions of climbing, what I think I understand them as, your writing is very hard to read and into just being climbers. 
Sport and bouldering get me strong for trad climbing and I can go back to those when I have had enough of scaring myself. 
I also bouldered way more in the beginning of my climbing career and have done fine as a trad climber. Yes there were some sketchy times but I go through them. Its very easy to judge others beginning's and not look to your own beginning's.
sam bendroth 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: strandman on October 31, 2013, 06:18:20 PM
No comment :-X
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2013, 07:29:12 PM
Well written, Sam.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on October 31, 2013, 08:03:47 PM
I don't define myself In one disciple of climbing. I go sport, trad, bouldering, ice and alpine  climbing [...] your writing is very hard to read and into just being climbers.

I am a biologist, I do statistic, physic for photosynthesis, chemical for the nutrition, etc. But I am a biologist.

Doing many aspect of a sport and describing yourself as if you are doing one sport is a disciple of one kind of climbing: a jack of all trade.

I practice trad 60 percent of the time, weight lift 20 percent, sport 20percent. I am a trad climber. Not a disciple of one kind of climbing.

If someone do 60 percent of bouldering, 30 of sport and 10 of trad, I consider that the climber do bouldering. He is not going to be a jack of all trade, but a very high performance V-8 climber.

I am practically never scare in a route (5.10 onsight). If a boulder guy came an say: "have had enough of scaring myself." I will say that it is normal. You are a boulder climber, not a trad climber. You don't have all the knowledge. You can't even make the distinction between your kind of practice and the ethic that you develop and the kind of practice that I do and the ethic of many generation before you. It is not a barrier language, it is your mind conception.

In this thread, I just wrote three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad. You don't even discuss one of those reason. Just saying that you are good because you are doing a v-6 problem after many try like a gymnast on parallel bar and that you are scare because you have a lack of knowledge in trad. What prove my point 
 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on October 31, 2013, 08:11:26 PM
Well said Sam.

LL, I don’t think Sam needs to respond point by point to your three “reasons” considering they are overly subjective reasons to begin with.

I think Sam did ok starting out with “bouldering before doing trad”, which is what your whole thread topic is about.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sam+bendroth&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=v_ByUpqTJMW64AOe3IHQBA&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=684
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on October 31, 2013, 08:25:43 PM
I think Sam did ok starting out with “bouldering before doing trad”, which is what your whole thread topic is about.

Imagine how good he would have been if he learned trad before doing bouldering...

Maybe my English is bad,  but I know to read. He said: "Sport and bouldering get me strong for trad climbing and I can go back to those when I have had enough of scaring myself."

He learned to do movement and after that had a lack of knowledge on trad...the reason why he his scare. And I gave three reason why he his scare. Those reason are objective. Learning how to fall is not subjective but a technique as important as a movement.

One Chinese women on the Everest was not able to fix her crampon on there boots. A photo of her close to the summit is cool, but doesn't prove any think. We have a testimony of Sam.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on October 31, 2013, 08:32:23 PM
Imagine how good he would have been if he learned trad before doing bouldering...

Ya, cause leading 5.13 trad isn’t really that good is it? If only he didn’t boulder first LOL.

Sam’s quite modest to boost of his achievements but a quick google search would enlighten you.

http://krankonthis.blogspot.com/

http://mattmccormickclimbing.blogspot.com/2012/06/highway-61.html

Your black & white view of climbing is really sad.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2013, 08:36:13 PM
I am practically never scare in a route (5.10 onsight).
Bold words indeed. They might come back to haunt you one day, Champ.
You got to know when to "fold your cards".  I think you are out matched on this one, buddy.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: strandman on October 31, 2013, 09:25:26 PM
May have to  edit this one Al-

LL you are full of shit !!! I am convinced you know little about actual climbing....WOW ! you can onsite 5.10 without getting scared

BIG FUCKING DEAL
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DGoguen on October 31, 2013, 09:27:46 PM
Hey Jacques
I've got to tell you. If all the young climbers were like Sam you wouldn't have much to worry about. Well rounded, solid, and mindfull of those who came before yet moving forward.

Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Pete Jackson on November 01, 2013, 12:06:48 AM
The overall conclusion is that if we want that people choose which path they want, we must teach the difference between each ethic and the goal.

Why? Shouldn't we let people learn for themselves?

It took me 20 years to figure out what kind of climber I am. Why not let newcomers enjoy the same journey?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 01, 2013, 12:46:13 AM
The overall conclusion is that if we want that people choose which path they want, we must teach the difference between each ethic and the goal.
Why? Shouldn't we let people learn for themselves?

Why? shouldn't we let people choose the ethic they want for themselves?

I know guy, working a route for days, and finally doing a 5.13. After, they send it with the use of cam. Big deal. Go in a gym, try parallel bar, train a routine many time...and you will be able to do complex move. This is the same as climbing a 5.13 after many repetition. It could be fun, you could like it. But I don't like it. I prefer to learn like jackson 20 years ago when sport doesn't exist. And I am pretty sure that you don't learn by yourself, but with old climber with a strong trad ethic.

This is call institutionalization. The way to bring all sport at the same level of difficulty in a way that every body will think that he his good. It is done to have more client by teaching in school the sport. For the parent, the risk is good. Very low danger in a gym, and the majority of the climber are scare to climb in remote area. So, the people stay in the kindergarden (bolt lader) manage by the good teacher. The final goal is to ban all traditional climbing technique, to create one ethic. 

Notice that I can be scare in a cliff. I was climbing with a boulder climber and, as I was doing a movement, he pull on the rope, taking me off stance practically. I was scare because the other climber, not too bad, was a danger on himself. 



 

 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: crazyt on November 01, 2013, 03:29:41 AM
Whatever
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Admin Al on November 01, 2013, 07:09:25 AM
Whatever

+1
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 01, 2013, 08:19:14 AM
The final goal is to ban all traditional climbing technique, to create one ethic. 
Seriously?  Are you paranoid?
I think you need to travel more, meet a more diversed group of people/climbers, get to know them well.  You may even tamper your extreme views.  Seriously.
I believe trad climbing is alive and well, maybe even gaining a little resurgence.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JBro on November 01, 2013, 08:48:33 AM
Whatever



(http://i.imgur.com/VKR5y.gif)




+1



(http://i.imgur.com/qK7oT.gif)
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Admin Al on November 01, 2013, 09:04:10 AM
Shucks, I see lots of folks out there trad climbing. go to the Gunks on a warm weekend... Sure there are crowds at Rumney, but there are still a lot of people placing gear on good climbs.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: krankonthis on November 01, 2013, 09:46:34 AM
luke the reason I get scared trad climbing is because R and X climbing is scary not because I bouldered.  I know how to fall and trust a rope, blah blah.
Yeah I don't see why you should be scared on 5.10 trad unless its r/x. Luke have you climbed Grimreaper?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: krankonthis on November 01, 2013, 09:54:31 AM
Knowledge handed down from the man himself, Tommy Cladwell
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ2k876YuPw
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DGoguen on November 01, 2013, 10:08:50 AM
I see lots of folks out there trad climbing. go to the Gunks on a warm weekend
Ah, but do they follow heuristic, superficial, safe parent rules or do they have a "balls deep understanding" like the man himself.
Placing gear doesn't make you Trad. You need a secret international handshake.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DaveR on November 01, 2013, 10:22:49 AM
Yeah I don't see why you should be scared on 5.10 trad unless its r/x. Luke have you climbed Grimreaper?

I lead it and felt sick and was shaking after.  :P

Is that because I was;
a) scared
b) not a good trad climber
c) old and more sensible
d) a bolt clipping wuss
e) all of the above

Please tell me what was wrong with me Luke!

If 5.10 trad doesn't scare you Luke you need to climb harder. I can give you a list of 5.8 and 5.9 rx routes that WILL scare the shit out of you!!

Dave
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 01, 2013, 10:53:38 AM
If 5.10 trad doesn't scare you Luke you need to climb harder.
I can give you a list of 5.8 and 5.9 rx routes that WILL scare the shit out of you!!
Amen.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: steve weitzler on November 01, 2013, 11:23:19 AM
I lead it and felt sick and was shaking after.

f) High
g) Drunk
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DaveR on November 01, 2013, 12:16:19 PM
I lead it and felt sick and was shaking after.

f) High
g) Drunk

You forgot all of the above Steve!
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 01, 2013, 05:57:48 PM
I know guy, working a route for days, and finally doing a 5.13. After, they send it with the use of cam. Big deal. Go in a gym, try parallel bar, train a routine many time...and you will be able to do complex move. This is the same as climbing a 5.13 after many repetition. It could be fun, you could like it. But I don't like it. I prefer to learn like jackson 20 years ago when sport doesn't exist. And I am pretty sure that you don't learn by yourself, but with old climber with a strong trad ethic.

If you define trad climbing as some one who place cam in a crack...you are right that many people trad climb. In that way...the only think you can do is climbing classic with a lot of pro.

If you define trad as the people use to do it when they use piton and have to place less gear to avoid to be to tired, and you learn the similitude between hamp rope and dynamic rope and you use that technique, do multi pitch route in remote area, etc.. you never qualify 80 percent of the climber using cam as trad climber.

ordinarly, a good 5.10 climber can doa 5.8X route without too difficulty. There is always sand bag or situation that are very dangerous. Taking the decision to not playing the game of people who just plug cam in the rock versus challenging some one to place his life in danger just for there plaisir...I prefer to keep my definition of trad climbing. 

Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: krankonthis on November 01, 2013, 10:08:44 PM
luke have you climbed grimreaper?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 01, 2013, 10:38:30 PM
Why does one need to know the similarity and difference between hamp and nylon dynamic rope in order to qualify as "trad" by ->you<- ?
Why is knowing all that needs to be known about dynamic climbing rope insufficient?
When was the last time *you* led on a hamp rope?  Such arbitrary and asinine rule!

And answer the question put to you by Sam.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 02, 2013, 05:39:15 PM
Taking the decision to not playing the game of people who just plug cam in the rock versus challenging some one to place his life in danger just for there plaisir...I prefer to keep my definition of trad climbing.

Sneoh...above is the answer to sam

Some time it is annoying.
A static rope and a sling is very similar. Knowing the problem of hamp rope is knowing the bad utilization of sling in trad climbing, when the use of the rope is safer (as sport is different, some technique of sport can be use and using the same technique in trad can be very dangerous).

2- To have a deep understanding of belaying: to gave slack when it is better to protect that a protection pop out, to gave a static belay when the leader can fall his back on the rock by a longer fall, and so many situation that you have to understand to climb x or r rating route safely. Those who climbed those route are in two categories: one who take the risk and was trap in the problem and manage to make the move...and those who have enough technique to do the move and don't really need a protection (like a 5.5x on a 5.8 route)

3- I used a hamp rope to climb the nose, we didn't lead with it, but the technique to haul a bag and the danger of an hamp rope is a very important concern in those route. Of course, with bolt, hauling is not very difficult. You can follow a procedure. But a haul bag of 80 pounds falling of 30 feet directly on the belay could  be dangerous.

Knowing the technique is very important in trad...and I suggest that people who don't have time for technique, who like to climb, do sport route and enjoy it. If you want to have a deep understanding of what you are doing and you want to take sound decision to protect your life...take your time and consider that if you begin with bouldering, some attitude will not be developed as easily as if you learn to trad first.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DGoguen on November 02, 2013, 06:27:51 PM
3- I used a hamp rope to climb the nose, we didn't lead with it, but the technique to haul a bag and the danger of an hamp rope is a very important concern in those route.
Are you saying you climbed "The Nose" on El Cap,  and hauled with a hemp rope?
Recently?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JBro on November 02, 2013, 06:56:04 PM
Come on dewd it was a hamp rope. Nobody climbs with a hemp rope anymore!
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 02, 2013, 07:37:55 PM
OK, I believe we all understand the differences among sling, static rope, and dynamic rope.  No need to introduce hemp rope in order to understand the differences.

And belaying?  Please, enough can be learned using a dynamic rope and different belay devices and with the leader doing a number of different things under different situations.  I fail to see how using a hemp rope can help anyone know how to belay better using a dynamic rope.

And if you really used a hemp rope to do hauling on The Nose, then you are crazier than I suspected.  You failed on The Nose if memory serves, didn't you?  Maybe you messed yourself up by using a hemp rope!  Sorry, this is unfair but too hard to pass up. :)

And, please, most of us know the trade-off of a "hard" catch and a shorter fall versus a longer fall from a softer catch and what is means to the protection gear.  Give people some credit.  If people are really as clueless as you seem to think they/we are, there would be way more climber deaths.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: danf on November 02, 2013, 07:53:53 PM
You do realize you're arguing with someone that quotes himself somewhat regularly, right?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 02, 2013, 07:58:25 PM
Yeah you are right; I am just killing myself over this.  I got to kick this bad habit!
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 02, 2013, 08:03:01 PM
You do realize you're arguing with someone that quotes himself somewhat regularly, right?

Glad someone pointed this out
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 02, 2013, 08:04:45 PM
Yeah you are right; I am just killing myself over this.  I got to kick this bad habit!

I'm thinking of starting a support group for NEClimbs members who have fallen for Champ/LL's repetitive regurgitated essays' over and over... We could have weekly meetings and talk about how many days we have gone without responding to any of LL's rants!
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DGoguen on November 02, 2013, 08:14:53 PM
Ha Ha
You're about two minutes from a massive relapse at any point in time. Who are you sh****ng. You are not the "true"
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 02, 2013, 08:30:41 PM
Ha Ha
You're about two minutes from a massive relapse at any point in time. Who are you sh****ng. You are not the "true"

Who better to be the founder of said support group than some one that knows his own weakness? Come brother, join us.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 02, 2013, 08:48:48 PM
Ha Ha
You're about two minutes from a massive relapse at any point in time.
How very true .... we need to be 100% vigilant, all the time!
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: darwined on November 02, 2013, 08:52:15 PM
Ha Ha
You're about two minutes from a massive relapse at any point in time. Who are you sh****ng. You are not the "true"

Who better to be the founder of said support group than some one that knows his own weakness? Come brother, join us.
monthly meetings to be held in Rumney
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 03, 2013, 09:09:31 AM
OK, I believe we all understand the differences among sling, static rope, and dynamic rope.  No need to introduce hemp rope in order to understand the differences.

Sorry, it is static rope. As I red the history of rope, and static rope was hemp rope before, I use the same term for old and new static rope. Notice that the core could still be hemp material in static rope.

There was a very good graphic in mountaineering freedom of the hill showing the difference between hemp rope and dynamic rope. It is not there any more. I learned a lot with it and spend lot of time to understand how it can help to place pro. Particularly a theorical way of calculating the distance to place the pro in different situation. 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 03, 2013, 09:14:39 AM
Give people some credit.  If people are really as clueless as you seem to think they/we are, there would be way more climber deaths.

There is one death per year in quebec due to climbing....and more accident happen despite a lower number of climber on the cliff.

The only reason why I support your sarcasm is because there is more death, other way...I do not care.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 03, 2013, 09:17:46 AM
...I use the same term for old and new static rope. Notice that the core could still be hemp material in static rope.

There was a very good graphic in mountaineering freedom of the hill showing the difference between hemp rope and dynamic rope. It is not there any more. I learned a lot with it and spend lot of time to understand how it can help to place pro. Particularly a theorical way of calculating the distance to place the pro in different situation.

No, the core of a static rope can not be made of hemp LOL. Not in 30+ years. Maybe that’s why it’s not in your FOTH bible?

How can you have a serious conversation when you mis-use such basic well defined words like “hemp” and “static”. As if you are not confusing enough for most readers now you make up your own definitions. Classic.

"Particularly a theorical way of calculating the distance to place the pro in different situation.”

Yes, the answer to that is = don’t hit a ledge, obstruction, or the ground if you fall.

Now I gotta turn in my chip.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Jeff on November 03, 2013, 09:40:56 AM
Just one quick response and then I'll ask for group intervention as well; Dave, I started working on the UIAA Safety Commission in 1979  (35 years ago last May) at the meeting at the Mohonk Mountain House when it was first proposed to raise the # of UIAA falls that a rope had to pass to get the UIAA label from 3 to 5. At that time NO ONE was making a rope for ANY climbing or mountaineering purpose that contained ANY hemp. In fact when I started climbing in France in 1964 (nearly 50 years ago) everyone I saw was using nylon kernmantel ropes at ALL times, although I did know some "dinosaurs" (impecunious Brits for the most part) who still used a waist loop ( picture the classic swami belt of  several wraps of 1 inch tubular webbing) made of a laid cord static material , perhaps hemp, but usually nylon, to which they tied the climbing rope with a bowline ("noeud de guide" in French, at the time). This method of tying in was shown in many of the early British climbing manuals. In the late 60s here in the States lots of climbers used laid NYLON ropes made by Goldline or earlier by Plymouth Cordage. A group of us in the CT AMC bought a couple of 600' spools of 7/16 inch Goldline and cut it into 150 foot lengths (standard at the time) to share and save $, since imported Edelrid ropes were too pricey! ($30 or more for a 15 foot rope when two guys could get 4 drafts and 4 slices of pizza in New Paltz for $2!) Therefore ANY discussion of using HEMP ropes in modern climbing is in NO WAY informative for "noobs" or for the rest of us who are "no longer noobs". Now excuse me, I'm going to be late for a 12-step meeting! :-X
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 03, 2013, 11:07:36 AM
Awesome stuff Jeff, thanks for sharing. Maybe Champ/LL has used a bit too much “hemp” before it was processed?

I’ll save you a seat.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Jeff on November 03, 2013, 02:29:56 PM
oops-- just noted a typo in my post--probably due to my haste to get to my intervention meeting-- correction: the price was $30 for 150 foot Edelrid ropes--they were pricy but not twice the cost of modern ropes. (at $30 for 15 feet they'd have been more costly than the "hemp " then popular in some climber campgrounds 8))
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 03, 2013, 02:38:21 PM
No, the core of a static rope can not be made of hemp LOL. Not in 30+ years. Maybe that’s why it’s not in your FOTH bible?

I should I said natural fiber, compare with nylon and polyester. For one time you have reason I made a mistake between hemp rope and static.

Look in mountaineering freedom of the hill, fifth edition, the graphic, they use the term hemp rope and kermantle rope.

As hemp rope is as static as the new kind of material, the mistake doesn't change any thing at the theory. Sling are also made with fiber, static fiber.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DGoguen on November 03, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
Are you saying you climbed "The Nose" on El Cap,  and hauled with a hemp rope?
Recently?
Sorry, it is static rope. As I red the history of rope, and static rope was hemp rope before, I use the same term
Cool.
I'll move you from the "Dangerously insane" column back over to the "wicked annoying"
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 03, 2013, 02:46:14 PM
; Dave, I started working on the UIAA Safety Commission in 1979  (35 years ago last May) at the meeting at the Mohonk Mountain House when it was first proposed to raise the # of UIAA falls that a rope had to pass to get the UIAA label from 3 to 5. At that time NO ONE was making a rope for ANY climbing or mountaineering purpose that contained ANY hemp.

Jeff, is it a big difference between static and hemp rope in term of safety????

If you know the sling shut effect of a static rope on a belay, are you going to use a sling to tied in on an anchor made with cam and stopper?

Every sport climber do that. It is good in sport, not in trad.

To have different point of view about safety can be helpful, writing two pages because I made a mistake between static and hemp....
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 03, 2013, 02:58:33 PM
I should I said natural fiber, compare with nylon and polyester. For one time you have reason I made a mistake between hemp rope and static...

No. You are still wrong. There have not been ANY climbing ropes, STATIC or DYNAMIC, with "natural" fibers in them, in over 30 years. Give it up.

To have different point of view about safety can be helpful, writing two pages because I made a mistake between static and hemp....

You're going to comment on the length of Jeff's post? Are you effin' kidding me?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 03, 2013, 03:48:02 PM
No. You are still wrong. There have not been ANY climbing ropes, STATIC or DYNAMIC, with "natural" fibers in them, in over 30 years. Give it up.

I already say that I made a mistake, so...why do you continue to focus on an insignificant mistake>

Here some think better to read and understand:

Robert Lindley Murray Underhill (March 3, 1889 – May 11, 1983) was an American mountaineer best known for introducing modern Alpine style rope and belaying techniques to the U.S. climbing community in the late 1920s and early 1930s

He bring most of the theory about dynamic rope. Althougth he just describe the importance to be a good belayer.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 03, 2013, 05:01:25 PM
LL - it is not an insignificant mistake in saying natural fiber (hemp or other) is used in climbing rope in recent times.  Throwing in hemp just confuses the point of static versus dynamic unnecessarily.

As for "are you going to use a sling to tied in on an anchor made with cam and stopper?",  I think this is only a serious issue if you intend on shock loading the anchor while belaying (why else would you tie into the anchor?).  Probably not a common occurrence.  Perhaps I am missing something?

How do you set up a single-pitch TR anchor where nuts and cams are necessary?  You do not use slings or anything that is "static" as part of the anchor?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DaveR on November 03, 2013, 08:26:04 PM
I don't even think Strandman is old enough to have used a hemp rope. ;D

LL -
Find some good bud
go to Rumney and inhale deeply
Take a shot at a 5.6X like Flesh for Lulu (Procession at Humphry's is another route put up by the uninformed you could try ;D)
everything will be OK!

Grim Reaper still awaits LL, I recommend good bud before that one! It would have helped my nerves! ;)

Quote from LL in another post;
"I don't know the theory of falling, I climb hard on sport...the rock is bad, we must place bolt to allow uninform people who like ignorance to climb hard  to have access to a 5.6x route."
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 04, 2013, 12:10:11 AM
LL - it is not an insignificant mistake in saying natural fiber (hemp or other) is used in climbing rope in recent times.  Throwing in hemp just confuses the point of static versus dynamic unnecessarily.

Robert Underhill present is theory on dynamic technique with rope between 1920 and 1930. Nylon was discover in 1935...so the theory of dynamic rope was present when hemp rope was use. The rope most run is the non-technical way of understanding the theory of Underhill.

For people who don't know the history of rope, I concede that it can be confusing and unnecessarily. And I apologized. I am alone and you are more than one person who try to discredit the heritage of the climber of the golden age: safety. I have to keep my focus and often I wrote thing that I delete because it is just insulting without any good thing for the safety of people. I am human too.

It is too late for a detail of how I anchor myself, but in general I try to have to solid point of 12KN, multidirectional (with a back up nuts). My solid point can be two bolt, two, three, four or more  cam or nuts. For example, my anchor in british where coming at canon was made with three group of three nuts and I wasn't sure that it will hold a fall. The pro was link together with a sling or a cordelette with a master point. The master point is use to tied the rope of the climber. In case the sling broke, I attach the lead rope to one solid point. In the case of British where coming, I used my rope to joined the solid point together. So, I have the maximum of safety. I was there because, the pro was good at the third pitch and, after the chimney and the undercling...it was not possible to bail. In fact, climbing was safer. It is a situation that can happen, very different than what we have in sport. I was ready for that and I am still here to talk about it. The move with the undercling after the chimney worth the climb. It is exceptional. I will never climb that route again because it is very dangerous. Bolt at the belay is a solution, but at other place, the rock can be loose (5.5 to 5.6 x)
 

 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Jeff on November 04, 2013, 07:09:24 AM
LL , I've written NINE lines on the subject in my last "lengthy " post (not 2 pages)! When next we meet at Cathedral, I'm perfectly to discuss rope history with you , en français, si tu préfères; until that time, I'll just point out one difference between hemp ropes and static ones of a thickness appropriate for climbing-- the original historical premise for the adage "the leader must not fall" was that the HEMP ROPE would break under a shock load (see Whymper and the history of the 1st ascent of the Matterhorn) and was therefore only really good for helping a less skilled person than the leader; a modern STATIC ROPE of a thickness appropriate for climbing will BREAK the climbers BODY or SCRAMBLE internal organs in a dynamic fall; the modern concern with static materials to tie in to a belay has come about from studying some accidents where someone clipped into an anchor, climbed above it to place another piece, fell off, and either the sling broke, or a carabiner broke, causing a much longer and injurious fall ( in at least one case, fatal). During the 22 years that I was the AAC delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission (Commission de Sécurité), we studied several such cases, lab tests were done, and the reasons for the failure of the gear was determined. In the last few years, Black Diamond, Petzl and especially DMM have, in their testing labs, continued to make such tests and have made available very informative videos to help climbers and alpinists , "noobs" and mountain professionals alike, to understand the strengths and limitations of the various materials. This is helpful; continuing to "blame the bolts" and sport climbing for the lack of understanding of the forces and risks involved in climbing is not. I've now added 19 lines of text to my total contribution to this site--YOU STILL WIN-- but as 70 year old, active climber (& guide) who started climbing in 1964, who has read everything I could lay my hands on about climbing technique, safety, materials, and history since, and who volunteered my time for 22 years as the AAC delegate on the UIAA Safety Commission, I don't need you to quote me Robert Underhill's reference from Freedom of the Hills any more than I need an introduction to the Holy Bible from an annoying door to door Christian evangelist! :-*
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 04, 2013, 07:14:16 AM
1930's!  Holy cow, LL.  It is like saying we all need to know how a mechanical typewriter works in order to work in a modern office just because it gave rose to the modern keyboard for a PC!

About your anchor, since you like to go into minute details, aren't the sling and/or cordelette that make up the master point static?  But we get your earlier point which is there should ideally be some "dynamism" between you and the nuts and cams when anchroing in.  Much simplier to just say this than to, yet again, invoke the difference between trad and sport.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DGoguen on November 04, 2013, 07:20:51 AM
I am alone and you are more than one person who try to discredit the heritage of the climber of the golden age:
There may be a reason you are making your way down the East coast of North America exhausting climbing partners?
Step back and have a look.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JBro on November 04, 2013, 01:18:11 PM
Pretty sure the theory of dynamic rope is "lock the mother faaaker off the rope will stretch and absorb force."

Theory of dynamic belay is to let the hamp rope slip to absorb force so it doesn't break. Wasn't this what Underhill was involved in?






Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: frik on November 04, 2013, 03:07:39 PM
Jeezuz Christos Brochu...

With you, Luke's got himself a "70 fish day"..... time to head for port.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 04, 2013, 05:50:20 PM
In the last few years, Black Diamond, Petzl and especially DMM have, in their testing labs, continued to make such tests and have made available very informative videos to help climbers and alpinists , "noobs" and mountain professionals alike, to understand the strengths and limitations of the various materials. This is helpful; continuing to "blame the bolts" and sport climbing for the lack of understanding of the forces and risks involved in climbing is not.

I didn't blame the bolts and I didn't blame sport climbing. I note that they are not as inform as you can be and as they need to be. I said that sport is very different than trad in many point and I think that the work that some older climber did is not efficiently transmit to the next generation.

You understand immediately the situation at the anchor and you gave an example of the danger. Even if you want to protect sport climber, your knowledge emerge to a reality: there is a danger in trad with static anchor and at least one death.

Read the answer of Jbrochu. You know the theory. In a fall, the forces is always the same. It is the time to stop the fall that is important. Whit a hemp rope, the climber was stop practically immediately, he received all the energy in one shot. This will broke the rope. When you gave six feet of rope, the climber take few second to stop. So, instead of a 1000kgper square inches of pressure/ sec on his ribs, the climber received 500 kg per square inches or less /sec.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DaveR on November 04, 2013, 06:01:52 PM
LL,
Who gives a F++K! Nobody alive today has ever climbed on a hemp rope nor would want to so understanding it's properties doesn't matter.

You are like a climbing instructor I saw in a gym a few months back. The guy blabbered on for an hour and 20 minutes about the testing of biners and harnesses with a bunch of noobs who were clearly lost. At the end of the class they still couldn't belay worth shit but they were really confused.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 04, 2013, 08:28:51 PM
LL, you need to clean up your engineering calculations before you lose more credibility.
First of all, pressure is Newton (Force) per unit area, not kg per unit area.  Yes, it is a nit but an important one.
Secondly, deceleration forces on a human body is often expressed in "g-force" unit with 1 'g" being 9.8m per second squared, acting on each kg of body weight (g-force is normalized with respect to body weight).  I have no idea what kg per unit area per sec amounts to but it is not force.

Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 05, 2013, 02:17:46 PM
LL, you need to clean up your engineering calculations before you lose more credibility.

whit hemp rope, it is the pressure on the rib that broke it. I use pressure here because the real term is energy and I don,t want to make a mistake that can e confuse. Formula is from F=ma where a is the terrest attraction (g), or the deceleration, d, So, the formula for the force a climber fall is mg=md. Deceleration is hard to calculate. friction on the rope, poulie effect, and rope stretch are all very improtant, I think that it is a double integral
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: frik on November 05, 2013, 03:43:15 PM
That's effing brilliant Luke.
Without doubt,  the Prof. Erwin Corey of this place. 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 05, 2013, 07:07:47 PM
About your anchor, since you like to go into minute details, aren't the sling and/or cordelette that make up the master point static?

You are right I use static sling at the anchor to built the master point. As we do in trad, and even those who can't explain that theory use it as they can explain it in there own words by pratical experience, we calculate the point of lowest resistance. In that way, you have the stopper with a rating of 10 KN, the sling that you tied with a knot at 18KN less the knot 12kN, the rope which is rate at 10 KN. So , my sling was not my weekess point.

In sport, the fall of a climber on a static sling can generate enough energy to cut the sling. In general, they use a 22KN sling on a 24 KN bolt. for that reason, tying with a sling in sport is safe, but in some dangerous situation....it is not safe in trad.

 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 05, 2013, 07:33:35 PM
About your anchor, since you like to go into minute details, aren't the sling and/or cordelette that make up the master point static?
...we calculate the point of lowest resistance. In that way, you have the stopper with a rating of 10 KN, the sling that you tied with a knot at 18KN less the knot 12kN, the rope which is rate at 10 KN. So , my sling was not my weekess point.

In sport, the fall of a climber on a static sling can generate enough energy to cut the sling. In general, they use a 22KN sling on a 24 KN bolt. for that reason, tying with a sling in sport is safe, but in some dangerous situation....it is not safe in trad.

Ahhh.. he does like going into minute details. Especially the type that are not very helpful to new, intermediate, or expert climbers (aka everyone).

More important than all the kN talk of his first paragraph is recognizing that you attachment to the anchor should be dynamic if possible (like tying in with the rope with a clove hitch), vrs. just clipping in with a nylon sling like is still very common in both trad & sport climbing.

As for the 2nd paragraph, the force doesn’t “cut the sling”, but possibly could break or “snap" it. Not to be nit-picky but saying “22KN on a 24KN bolt” is not useable in any kind of risk management way... it is confusing at the best what your point is there...

Finally, to say “tying with a sling in sport is safe... but not in trad” is a perfect example of how you take a complex issue, add complexity to it by talking about pieces of the puzzle that are not as important (breaking strength of a small nut “10KN), then over simplifying it to “this is ok in sport but not in trad”.

Heart in the right place, but your delivery of most climbing techniques is not decipherable by your audience.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: darwined on November 05, 2013, 09:14:00 PM
Way WAY off topic but, I figured I'd throw it out there for laughs.  Enjoy

http://youtu.be/SyIJ_c5dXSE
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 05, 2013, 11:16:19 PM
Finally, to say “tying with a sling in sport is safe... but not in trad” is a perfect example of how you take a complex issue, add complexity to it by talking about pieces of the puzzle that are not as important (breaking strength of a small nut “10KN), then over simplifying it to “this is ok in sport but not in trad”.

Nylon and Dyneema® slings (all rated at 22 kN) in this video
the UIAA standard for fixed bolt anchors is a minimum of 22 kilonewtons
rope is 10Kn...how a bolt can broke in sport?? what is the chance that two bolt felt at the same moment??? sling is safe on sport.

With a stopper, rate 10kN on the wire...it is not the solidity of the nut which is important...but the solidity of the rock around the pro, the direction of the fall and how easily it can be pull out. We know when a pro is bad, but we never know when the pro is good (maybe after a fall. I still have my number four long first fall)
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 06, 2013, 12:07:10 AM
You guys are way ahead of me; I am still struggling with how "the fall of a climber on a static sling can generate enough energy to cut the sling."  Trad or sport, where is the rope in all this? How would a leader/belayer fall on an anchor bolt while only connected to it with a sling?  Unless the other anchor bolt sheared .....

Yes, heart in the right place but pretty far fetched scenarios obscures the message.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 06, 2013, 08:56:59 AM
You guys are way ahead of me; I am still struggling with how "the fall of a climber on a static sling can generate enough energy to cut the sling."  Trad or sport, where is the rope in all this? How would a leader/belayer fall on an anchor bolt while only connected to it with a sling?  Unless the other anchor bolt sheared .....

Yes, heart in the right place but pretty far fetched scenarios obscures the message.

The idea here is 1) climber attaches to an anchor with a nylon sling, which for argument's sake is considered static in nature... 2) The climber then moves above his attachment for some reason, say, to adjust something higher in the anchor then 3) slips, loading the slack sling.

In theory a 4 foot fall on a 2 foot nylon sling would generate enough to injure the climber, and in a worst case scenario potentially break the sling.

This is good theory, as Lucky Luke has pointed out. The take home points;

1) When possible attach to the anchor with something more dynamic than a sling (climbing rope works wonders here)

2) If you do attach with a sling, like possibly preparing to rappel, be mindful not to climb above your attachment or generate any slack in your attachment.

Memorizing Kn's might help a very few people (1), but this is the concern LL was addressing.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JakeDatc on November 06, 2013, 09:16:29 AM
Yep,  sport i use a dyneema sling w/ locker   and only hang on it,  no need to move around while cleaning an anchor that takes 30 seconds.     trad i clove in with the rope because there is more chance i'll be moving around at an anchor, swapping leads, etc. 

bouldering i don't use any slings....
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 06, 2013, 09:47:55 AM
Yep,  sport i use a dyneema sling w/ locker   and only hang on it,  no need to move around while cleaning an anchor that takes 30 seconds.     trad i clove in with the rope because there is more chance i'll be moving around at an anchor, swapping leads, etc. 

bouldering i don't use any slings....

How's are you attaching the dyneema to the harness?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JakeDatc on November 06, 2013, 10:12:30 AM
I girth it to my belay loop each time.   i don't subscribe to sling thong action.     
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 06, 2013, 10:26:36 AM
There is some concern over girth-hitching skinny dyneema slings to thicker nylon slings, like belay loops. The issue lies in the fact that a girth-hitch can create a 2:1 pulley on itself when orientated so that the material "doubles back" on itself. It is easier for this to happen with a skinny tight dynemma sling on a thicker nylon sling. The tie-in point of a harness is preferred as it is re-inforced for nylon/nylon and dyneema/nylon wear. Petzl would go so far as to say the belay loop should ONLY see metal. Almost all there harnesses have diagrams on the belay loop illustrating this.

Yes, it is a bit more of a hassle to girth hitch through the tie-in point than the belay loop, but it is what the harness manufactures suggest.

I'll girth my belay loop on occasion (in winter, gloves on, cold hands), but I'll use a normal size nylon sling. I wouldn't do it every day though.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JBro on November 06, 2013, 10:34:15 AM
How do you girth hitch to your tie-in point when you're rappelling? Or in other words what do you do for rappelling?

Also, is the risk with skinny dyneema doubling back only under strong forces or are you talking about the kind of force generated just leaning back on the anchor?

I might just get rid of all my skinny slings. Too many rules to remember and it's harshing my mellow.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JBro on November 06, 2013, 10:39:00 AM
Jeezuz Christos Brochu...

With you, Luke's got himself a "70 fish day"..... time to head for port.


Ha ha yeah he got me that time lolz
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 06, 2013, 11:00:15 AM
How do you girth hitch to your tie-in point when you're rappelling? Or in other words what do you do for rappelling?

Also, is the risk with skinny dyneema doubling back only under strong forces or are you talking about the kind of force generated just leaning back on the anchor?

I might just get rid of all my skinny slings. Too many rules to remember and it's harshing my mellow.

I more often than not girth hitch a double length nylon sling through my tie-in point to extend my belay device away from me and to make it easier to transition to a new station. I tie a over-hand about 1/4 of the way up the double length to create a smaller loop where my rappel device sits. The longer tail facilitates transferring to a new station. I like having the device a bit further a way from my so I can use a auto-block off my belay loop, allowing me to go hands free mid-rappel to sort the rope or whatever...

As for your second question, I'm talking about the kind of unexpected forces that could crop up, not body weight. Something weird happened with some girth-hitched dyneema slings that caused a fatality out west a year or two ago... i don't have the details anymore but it was enough to get me to stop girthhitching dyneema.

Everyone as to decide for themselves, but I'll say this about dyneema.

It is awesome for creating alpine draws. And that is ALL I use it for these days. It's been proven you should never "knot" dyneema like you can nylon, so why bother girth-hitching it?

If I had money I would own 10 dyneema shoulder length slings outfitted with 20 Petzl Ange S carabiners...
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 06, 2013, 11:01:54 AM
OK, DMan, thanks for elaborating in terms most people can relate to and understand.
Personally, I try not to move around too much once I tie myself in but I can see people doing that.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 06, 2013, 11:05:56 AM
I only use nylon 2- and 3-footers now, and have been the past two years.  I junk the nylon ones sooner but it hurts less doing so :)
I made the switch not for financial reasons though.

DMan, watch for Petzl sale at Karst Sports in the month of Dec.  I bought quite a bit of Petzl stuff from them last Dec.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JBro on November 06, 2013, 11:17:26 AM

I more often than not girth hitch a double length nylon sling through my tie-in point to extend my belay device away from me and to make it easier to transition to a new station. I tie a over-hand about 1/4 of the way up the double length to create a smaller loop where my rappel device sits. The longer tail facilitates transferring to a new station. I like having the device a bit further a way from my so I can use a auto-block off my belay loop, allowing me to go hands free mid-rappel to sort the rope or whatever...

Ok that makes sense. I was confusing tie-in point with the loop in the rope when you tie-in to your harness. I've always used diaper style harnesses and forgot that modern harnesses all have a distinct tie-in point sewn into them.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 06, 2013, 11:24:07 AM
No prob Sneoh. I actually do like talking about this stuff when it can be civil and engaging. Thanks for the tip on the Petzl sale, but I have pro-deal and I still can't afford what I want  :P

Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: steve weitzler on November 06, 2013, 01:12:52 PM
Guys, don't fall then you don't have to worry about all this technical bullshit!!! :P :P
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 06, 2013, 01:16:16 PM
Guys, don't fall then you don't have to worry about all this technical bullshit!!! :P :P

That's why I like climbing without a rope... too complicated ;)
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: steve weitzler on November 06, 2013, 03:01:18 PM
I agree.  When things get too complicated it ceases to be fun.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 06, 2013, 04:00:53 PM
bouldering i don't use any slings....

A+
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 06, 2013, 05:05:26 PM
I agree.  When things get too complicated it ceases to be fun.

last winter an accident happen. Things have been complicated in the wild. The climber died. I wrote talking of some element of safety like the one of knowing the rope and what happen during a fall. A relative was insult and I was advise by the administrator that it was not the appropriate moment to discuss safety.

here an example about knowing the theory. In the pass, many people use figure eight to belay, even if it is wrote in the instruction of the device that it was not for belaying. So, the information gave by the company and the information gave by guy like the one who wrote on the forum, bring many people to use the figure eight every where (today, it is the atc).

On a forum, it is time to discuss about safety and gave as much information that we can, so the people will be able to take there own decision. If you don't know the theory, and just throw advice without being able to justify it, always remember that the guy who will follow your advice can died, and he can be one close to you.

keep it simple, doesn't mean keep it easy: don't work to understand the theory. Some climber gather the theory by practice, climbing and guiding every day, and they are very good. some other had a theorical approach. But safety is a lot of job. The easy way is to follow advice without understanding, but there is a risk.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: steve weitzler on November 06, 2013, 08:31:33 PM
Wow!!! I'm feeling pretty exclusive.  LL is quoting me not himself. :) :) :)
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: eyebolter on November 06, 2013, 08:57:36 PM

bouldering i don't use any slings....

I use them all the time.  Toprope the piss out of it, then boulder it like a hero.   How do you think I can still do highballs at 52? 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 06, 2013, 10:17:10 PM
And don't forget the 3 feet of snow for extra cushion, Ward.
Heck, Nalle does it so why shouldn't us geezers?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: eyebolter on November 07, 2013, 11:27:37 AM
And don't forget the 3 feet of snow for extra cushion, Ward.
Heck, Nalle does it so why shouldn't us geezers?


Yeah I have a V5 that is about 35 feet high with the crux at the top.  I'm waiting for winter and a big snow and am going to make a  HUGE pile at the base. 

This is "Light Sabre," V4 that I have bouldered barefoot, but only after shoveling and making a big snow pile landing.   Kind of scary at the top as you will pitch off backwards, maybe 30 feet to the ground as it slopes away.   Nobody has fallen to test out the landing....yet.

Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 07, 2013, 11:08:59 PM
The top does look scary, Ward, huge pile of snow or not!

Hey, LL/Champ, tell me bouldering this without spotters does not look scary to you (every after extensive TR practice).

Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Admin Al on November 08, 2013, 09:17:19 AM
Quote
1) When possible attach to the anchor with something more dynamic than a sling (climbing rope works wonders here)

not really sure I believe that 1 meter or less of climbing rope is all that much more dynamic than a sling, dyneema or otherwise. maybe the knot might make it more so tho...
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JakeDatc on November 08, 2013, 10:55:04 AM
there is probably drop testing data somewhere. 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: Pete Jackson on November 08, 2013, 11:09:07 AM
not really sure I believe that 1 meter or less of climbing rope is all that much more dynamic than a sling, dyneema or otherwise. maybe the knot might make it more so tho...

It's hard to judge. My thinking has always been that the force necessary for it to matter is hard to fathom in everyday use of the gear. So tugging on it, or bouncing on it doesn't do the trick.  I rigged some stuff to a come-along in my barn (because I was making repairs, not because I am a pull-testing geek) and was shocked at the difference in flex between steel cable, webbing, and old climbing rope. Suffice it to say, I'm using cable in there now. :)
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: JakeDatc on November 08, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
The problem is when you go above an anchor and slip the force is pretty hard..  like taking a mini whipper with no rope out.. its a pretty harsh fall.    so to get high forces doesn't take much length. 
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 08, 2013, 12:47:33 PM
Quote
1) When possible attach to the anchor with something more dynamic than a sling (climbing rope works wonders here)

not really sure I believe that 1 meter or less of climbing rope is all that much more dynamic than a sling, dyneema or otherwise. maybe the knot might make it more so tho...

Consider this:

Your average 10mm climbing rope has about 10% static elongation.

Your average nylon sling has less than 1% static elongation.

Your average dynex/dynema sling is basically steel.

So if you compare a 24 inch tie-in;

The rope will stretch 2.4 inches from static loading, but roughly three times that amount under extreme dynamic loading (7.2 inches)

The nylon sling will only stretch 2.4 inches if dynamically loaded. The dynex will not stretch at all (zero energy absorption).

I'm not saying you shouldn't attach with a nylon sling, though I think you could easily make the argument you should not attach with dynex.

Another consideration is simply how much more edge/cut resistant the rope is than a nylon sling. (Think unexpected rockfall hitting anchor).

Bottom line, unless you are rappelling there is little reason not to use the rope to attach to the anchor.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: lucky luke on November 08, 2013, 02:12:53 PM
Your average nylon sling has less than 1% static elongation. [...]

The nylon sling will only stretch 2.4 inches if dynamically loaded. The dynex will not stretch at all (zero energy absorption).

isn't it 0.24 ?
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: sneoh on November 08, 2013, 02:59:17 PM
LL's right, about 0.24 inch for nylon sling.
Title: Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
Post by: DLottmann on November 08, 2013, 03:51:50 PM
Your average nylon sling has less than 1% static elongation. [...]

The nylon sling will only stretch 2.4 inches if dynamically loaded. The dynex will not stretch at all (zero energy absorption).

isn't it 0.24 ?

Yup, my bad. I was never great at math. But that further illustrates my point to Al... Nylon is quite static and while I don't expect people to try bungee jumping off the belay ledge on a nylon sling... ya never know ;)