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General => General Climbing => Topic started by: lucky luke on October 19, 2013, 07:33:48 pm

Title: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 19, 2013, 07:33:48 pm
For more information and class dates check our website at http://www.emsexploration.com/north-conway/avalanche-training/aiare-1/

I red an article and they said that: "Risk homeostasis is also a possible explanation for why avalanche training seems to have little effect on incident rates. Armed with information on hazards, groups may actually choose to take more risk, believing that the mitigations (terrain selection, travel techniques, etc.) they put in place will compensate"

Later, they said: "Gaining experience can mitigate the effects of heuristic reasoning [6]. Though research shows that experts still occasionally get into trouble, they tend to approach problems based on an extensive background of similar problems, and thus are able to classify situations as belonging to a known type. They are able to test their hypothesis, which if confirmed, leads to a response that is appropriate to conditions. The challenge to recreational backcountry climbers and skiers is how to acquire this experience without being caught in a slide first"  http://www.summitpost.org/human-factors-in-avalanche-incidents/188636

So to gain experience, we most go on slide path. but in courses they said to avoid avalanche terrain. furthermore, classify situation belonging to a known type is making heuristic clue...and it is not necessary good.

What do we learned about risk homeostasis in courses?  and what a leader can say when your partner said: yes, but they told that the avalanche danger is low!!!
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 19, 2013, 07:51:22 pm
For more information and class dates check our website at http://www.emsexploration.com/north-conway/avalanche-training/aiare-1/

Ahhh! None of the risk reduction appeared to be the result of trained groups exposing themselves to
less hazard. In fact, victims with basic formal training exposed themselves to more hazard than any other group, including those with
no awareness of avalanches.

After the course, are we going to have "basic formal training"????

from:http://www.snowpit.com/articles/training.pdf    On January 12, 1993, three skiers left the well-marked boundary of Vail Ski Area headed for the backcountry. The group had been warned of the dangerous avalanche conditions by the Vail Ski Patrol, but these skiers had just completed a two-day avalanche course and were confident that they could find safe skiing.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 19, 2013, 09:54:37 pm
...So to gain experience, we most go on slide path. but in courses they said to avoid avalanche terrain. furthermore, classify situation belonging to a known type is making heuristic clue...and it is not necessary good...

You are 100% correct that you can not gain “experience” without going into a slide path, or avalanche terrain in general.

“In courses they said to avoid avalanche terrain”.

I’m not sure what courses you have taken or observed, but that statement is way to broad. Avalanche professionals across the world do discourage entering major slide paths during high avalanche danger, just like kayak professionals discourage paddlers from entering a river during flood stage...

The group had been warned of the dangerous avalanche conditions by the Vail Ski Patrol, but these skiers had just completed a two-day avalanche course and were confident that they could find safe skiing.

It is true that many people caught in avalanches have had some sort of “formal training”. That statistic is skewed since these are the same people that spend the most amount of time in avalanche terrain. However one of the key points made in a quality avalanche course is not ignoring the advice of local professionals, be they the avalanche forecast center or in this case the Vail Ski Patrol. Ignoring the warnings of local Ski Patrol because they have taken a 2 day course does not discredit the value of learning more about the hazard.

Your arguement continues to be “You're safer if you don’t learn from professionals”.

I can’t convince you otherwise, but I’d love for you to attend one of our courses. I think you would be surprised how little “fear mongering” exists. We encourage people to use the bulletin along with changing current conditions, and an honest assessment of their party’s capabilities and experience, to have a great day skiing and climbing in avalanche terrain despite the current rating. There is very little “don’t go” suggestion, and a lot of “lets look at all the data we can and determine as a group what is a reasonable amount of risk”. YMMV.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DGoguen on October 19, 2013, 10:55:16 pm
Too F'n early to  be arguing about avalanches boys. Still another month of rock climbing in NH

Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 19, 2013, 11:22:19 pm
Too F'n early to  be arguing about avalanches boys. Still another month of rock climbing in NH

Snow in Denver last week... it’s time in my book! I also love this stuff. I love snow & ice. I love avy stuff. I welcome LL/Champs comments. He presents a very unique view on the benefits (lack of) formal avalanche education. As a student 10 years ago I can still clearly remember the confusion I had walking away from the first 3 avalanche courses I participated in (despite the high quality of my instructors). It took a decade of practice to start to understand the concepts presented in a usable way...

What it really comes down to is LL and I agree on the most important thing... nothing trumps experience.

However we disagree on the next thing... quality instruction can help you gain that experience a bit more sanely than “winging it”.

He is convinced professionals post “high danger” because we don’t want to go out on a rescue... not because we understand the local conditions warrant that level of caution.

Regardless, I am stoked to see more than a dozen folks have pre-enrolled for courses this week from this post. Word is out... aspiring east coast ice climbers/mountaineers can benefit from some snow savy-ness, and a solid course, from ANY provider, is a sound investment.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 20, 2013, 10:29:41 am
What it really comes down to is LL and I agree on the most important thing... nothing trumps experience.

However we disagree on the next thing... quality instruction can help you gain that experience a bit more sanely than “winging it”.

He is convinced professionals post “high danger” because we don’t want to go out on a rescue... not because we understand the local conditions warrant that level of caution.

Nothing trumps experience....and how to gain experiences with a deep understanding is more than a concern for a course. After a snow storm, observing the snow in the windshield of a car to see when the avalanche collapse is more than usefull. You will understand that during the snow fall, except some warm weather exception, the slab is forming and it is just after that the slide appear on the car, the next day. This is a practical experience. Did you teach, in your courses to look at an avalanche on the windshield of a car...I am sure that you will next time.

Before I gave my life o someone who qualify himself as an expert, I will test him to see his knowledge. On the second article, http://www.snowpit.com/articles/training.pdf, they describe that situation where you follow stupidly a sign telling you what you have to do. It is a very dangerous heuristic advice. In the article, they talk about the mitigation method use by the good climber to diminished the danger in the field...I am not convinced that you teach that for two reason: First, I went to pinnacle in a white out and there is no snow slab during the snow fall, but it is form at the end and the danger increase as the blue bird sky appear...leaving the climber with the decision of climbing: 1- in fantastic condition and 2- an avalanche post with lower risk of avalanche than the day before. As they don't see any avalanche path around (avalanche is going to be higher after the snowstorm as show in a windshield) There decision will be to climb. So experience climber will say that you are stupid to said that avalanche danger is higher during the snowstorm than after (other risk than avalanche can exist in a snowstorm); Second, by your answer. if you had read the article that I cite, you will have see that your answer is a very dangerous heuristic advice. A climber leave there life in the hand of professional who is not there with you in the field at the good place at the good moment. Avalanche danger is always high and you always to care about any danger. It is why it is so pain full to be a good leader. Your decision are slow because you have to deal with discipline and incomplete information and you are always critics when you stop too much excitement or you push them safely in what you, as a professional, call a mistake. 

I don't care who did what for which reason. I found the idea of heuristic clue very interesting because it is what we do and what we shouldn't do in climbing. Act in knowledge, not ignorance, on deep understanding not superficial rules (mfoh, the old climber ethic). In fact, if you look at the article that I cite, you will see that the author describe the risk just for the climber who was involved in accident. They never talk about the climber who did, in reality, climb those route safely in a white out. So, the article is just for high risk climber, classify by there risk homeostasis, and stupid guy who follow professional advice just because they told themselves professional. Not for serious climber who want to learn deep understanding   

Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 20, 2013, 11:08:26 am
..Did you teach, in your courses to look at an avalanche on the windshield of a car...I am sure that you will next time...

Actually I do. And on barn roofs. And snowbanks in your own driveway. Thanks for stopping by Champ.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: David_G48 on October 20, 2013, 11:24:03 am
Champ
I agree with you about experience but, with reservations. An example would be that I was taught that getting shot with a bullet was a bad thing and there are procedures to follow to mitigate the results. Experience would be great but, in this case I think I will pass on the experience for now. I feel the same about an avalanche, would rather avoid it than learn from it. I think that Dave's class goes along way to help with prevention of getting into a high risk avalanche zone. If people do in fact take more risk because they had the course they probably have the kind of personality that would have them eventually take more avalanche risks as their experience builds up over time. There just aren't many classes that can teach common sense to these people.
Dave, teach on!
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: perswig on October 20, 2013, 01:29:41 pm
Spatial variability - learn it, live it, love it.
Or complain about professionals and their 'rules'.

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff69/perswig/IMG_0016.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff69/perswig/IMG_0009.jpg)

Dale
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 20, 2013, 02:31:09 pm
Great photos of “creep” and glide crack style avalanches Perswig! The 2nd one reminds me of my grandparents house in Thorton... we used to sled off the roof.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 20, 2013, 10:58:17 pm
Actually I do. And on barn roofs. And snowbanks in your own driveway.

Dörner (1996) has demonstrated that people tend to protect their perception of their own competence, and will actively avoid evidence to the contrary, particularly in complex situations. This results in “ballistic behavior” where people appear to ignore obvious clues that they are making a mistake.

By carefully building on decision skills that students already have, educators can help recreationists reduce their risks without limiting their experience of the winter backcountry.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 20, 2013, 11:36:48 pm
...By carefully building on decision skills that students already have, educators can help recreationists reduce their risks without limiting their experience of the winter backcountry.

That’s true! You should consider looking into becoming an instructor. Seriously, you are passionate about the subject, and knowledgable. Other than your disdain for formal instructors, I know you might have more to offer than just internet thread rants.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 21, 2013, 10:15:37 am
Other than your disdain for formal instructors,

It is you who qualify those instructor.

I just try to show some obvious clue
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: ed_esmond on October 21, 2013, 09:47:05 pm
Dörner (1996) has demonstrated that people tend to protect their perception of their own competence, and will actively avoid evidence to the contrary, particularly in complex situations...

lucky,
truer words were never spoken...

you may want to take your own advice...

or at least have a painful moment of self awareness.

crustily yours,

ed e
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 22, 2013, 10:15:30 am
Dörner (1996) has demonstrated that people tend to protect their perception of their own competence, and will actively avoid evidence to the contrary, particularly in complex situations...

lucky,
truer words were never spoken...

you may want to take your own advice...

Dorner is not me, so it is not my own advice.

but I actively chalenge myself on my perception of my competence before and after a climb. Heuristic clue bring me some understanding of a safety problem that I already had describe in other term.

When the situation is complex, the people will use short cut. If you learn to do a rap on bolt without testing the anchor, you will do the same in a dangerous situation where your life is threatening and, some time, you will have an accident

Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: Pete Jackson on October 22, 2013, 03:47:49 pm
When the situation is complex, the people will use short cut. If you learn to do a rap on bolt without testing the anchor, you will do the same in a dangerous situation where your life is threatening and, some time, you will have an accident

< insert X-position joke here >

True enough. But it seems like so many of these threads about safety and efficacy end up beating the same dead horse. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: JBro on October 22, 2013, 05:27:08 pm
Am I missing something?


At this point only a decent animated GIF.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 22, 2013, 11:28:36 pm
When the situation is complex, the people will use short cut. If you learn to do a rap on bolt without testing the anchor, you will do the same in a dangerous situation where your life is threatening and, some time, you will have an accident

I was at a cliff recently and had fun climbing with two good partner. And other party climb aside us an the guy explain me that he "teach" to his friend how to rapp. I asked him if he had climb at canon, a remote area. He said no, but he still teach how to rapp. I asked him if he used many technique to rap (figure eight, not, atc, etc) he said no.

In two or three years,  some of the new generation will teach to rapp. They will teach just one method on bolt because he never learned some think else. The new teacher will not even know that other technique exist and how they can make decision to use one technique instead of an other.

Heuristic clue the explanation of that tendency to use a standard method, one method for every thing, as good because it is accept by the majority of people.

Even if it is not acceptable by gravity. Fighting gravity is the only reason of safety
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 23, 2013, 08:07:41 am
Quoting yourself and talking about something other than the original topic is excellent thread hijacking LL. Nice one.

To address your last post though...

You seem to make a lot of assumptions of people. Just because someone hasn’t climbed Cannon or teaches how to use a figure-eight doesn’t mean they can’t show someone how to rap safety on an ATC. We all start out as beginners and some of us start teaching very early in our climbing careers. I was showing friends how to rappel when I was 16 from a pine tree in my back yard... with the now obsolete figure-8 (for recreational climbing).

Despite your heuristic issue, it is best to master one method of rappelling rather than learn 12 different ways to do it in one day IMO.

Try not to be so judgmental.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: Pete Jackson on October 23, 2013, 01:12:43 pm
I was showing friends how to rappel when I was 16 from a pine tree in my back yard... with the now obsolete figure-8 (for recreational climbing).

This is now waaaaaaaaaaay off topic, but I know of at least one Rumney / Cannon local who raps on a figure-eight. I'm not saying it's not an obsolete-ish piece of gear for most modern uses, just that for this guy, it still works. I almost pissed myself when he used it to go hands free to clean a ledge. Forgot you could do that with the old 8s so easily. :-)
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 23, 2013, 01:24:55 pm
I have fixed the topic title to be more accurate.

I know of at least one Rumney / Cannon local who raps on a figure-eight. I'm not saying it's not an obsolete-ish piece of gear for most modern uses, just that for this guy, it still works. I almost pissed myself when he used it to go hands free to clean a ledge. Forgot you could do that with the old 8s so easily. :-)

Totally works... twists the rope like mad (unless you set it up plate-style).

For those interested in the reason 8's are still used for Swat/Military is they generate less friction while rapping at high speed, and dissipate that heat better, reducing the likelihood of damaging the sheath of the rope. It's good to rap fast when you might be getting shot at...

Al, feel free to move this to General Climbing as it has drifted quite far from an event announcement.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: sneoh on October 23, 2013, 02:12:55 pm

LL likes to think himself as an authoritative expert in many things/areas.  Don’t let it keep you up at night.  LOL.

Ever rapped with one of these, LL?
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 23, 2013, 02:13:35 pm
This is now waaaaaaaaaaay off topic,

As I don't want to attack the credibility of any one, but talk about safety, the problem of avalanche and the way people make decision on a risky situation and the problem of rapp and the way people make decision is very close togheter.

Knowledge transfert is very important. And, maybe you are just teaching heuristic method and not: carefully building on decision skills that students already have. One method at a time, but knowing to see the danger when you never been in a position to understand that there is a danger and teaching your lack of experience... it was my question at the begining how can you built decision skill when a person just have to repeat a procedure???
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: JBro on October 23, 2013, 02:26:19 pm
(http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/193q6l10897h1gif/original.gif)
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 23, 2013, 04:19:49 pm
Ever rapped with one of these, LL?

No, I used it in emergency situation to lower heavy bag. I used carabiner, it did the same results.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 23, 2013, 05:07:19 pm
Ever rapped with one of these, LL?

No, I used it in emergency situation to lower heavy bag. I used carabiner, it did the same results.

You haven't used a Petzl Variable Rack Descender to rappel 500 meters of continuous 11MM static line in the dark?

You probably shouldn't be teaching rappelling on an ATC then and stick to bolts.

-end sarcasm
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: JakeDatc on October 23, 2013, 09:14:24 pm
Ever rapped with one of these, LL?

No, I used it in emergency situation to lower heavy bag. I used carabiner, it did the same results.

You haven't used a Petzl Variable Rack Descender to rappel 500 meters of continuous 11MM static line in the dark?

You probably shouldn't be teaching rappelling on an ATC then and stick to bolts.

-end sarcasm


oh please keep him away from the bolts.. i thought i was safe from him there..  (also seem to be safe while actually on route at the Gunks ;)  )
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 23, 2013, 11:55:58 pm
You haven't used a Petzl Variable Rack Descender to rappel 500 meters of continuous 11MM static line in the dark?
You probably shouldn't be teaching rappelling on an ATC then and stick to bolts.

There is many company who make atc. I am sure that you don't use all the device made by all the company on earth because you don't know or had the time to try it. I don't use petzl descender...because I don't need too. Why should I brought a rope of 500 meters to climb a route???

Nevertheless, I understand how the device work. I have a deep understand of it and I can construct the device with biner to lower two climber at the same time in emergency situation.

Dman you are a good example of superficial rules. Instead of rising the level of decision of the population in your favor (noting good point and asking the people to discuss them), you try to pull me down to your level. I climbed in remote area, as many experiences climbers, and I have to be safe. When there was a flood in la malbaie, quebec, I was alone with my partner in a 1200 feet cliff and only four party had done the route since there first ascent ten years before. Safety was a concern on every move, not just when it is time to rap. I could had died from a broken angle as we didn't had any cell phone to be rescue.

and I don't teach...even if I am aware of the safety of my partner and gave some advice to be safer.
 
Title: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 24, 2013, 09:19:49 am
LL, you may not “teach”, but you judge other’s who were “teaching” rappelling because they had not climbed on Cannon. Can you not see how judgmental that is?

As for saying I use “superficial rules”, have you ever climbed with me? Have you watched me guide? Have you spoken to any of the hundreds of students I have taught? Then I think you should go easy on accusations...

Must be time for winter again, LL and I are at it again...
Title: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 24, 2013, 10:12:17 am
LL, you may not “teach”, but you judge other’s who were “teaching” rappelling because they had not climbed on Cannon. Can you not see how judgmental that is?

I am concerne about safety. Some one who just raopp in a gym (sport with bolt anchor) and teach to other how to rapp at cathedral can teach a procedure with little or no information on how to take a decision in a high risk situation (thunderstorm or injury or stranded or dehydratation).

Accuse me of any thing, I don"t care...It is superficial and show more frustration than a deep understanding. If you teach how to take decision in complex situation you should act like taking decision on a real problem than trying to insult other,

Thinking that it is a mistake to teach without a deep understanding of the cliff (canon cathedral) and the human factor is a problem actually and if the person read what I wrote, there is good chance that he will or take a course with a local guide or train for some days to have more experience.

In a gym, it is cheaper to take someone with no experience than an experience climber, a decision that I don't agree with.
Title: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: DLottmann on October 24, 2013, 02:06:42 pm
I think we agree on so many levels... I just try to constantly remember I was a newbie once and if I see someone something differently than the way I would have done it I try not to jump to any conclusions. That's all.
Title: Re: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: pappy on October 24, 2013, 02:19:44 pm
Ever rapped with one of these, LL?

No, I used it in emergency situation to lower heavy bag. I used carabiner, it did the same results.

You haven't used a Petzl Variable Rack Descender to rappel 500 meters of continuous 11MM static line in the dark?

You probably shouldn't be teaching rappelling on an ATC then and stick to bolts.

-end sarcasm

Hey, I've rapped on one of those, 520' on 11mm static line in the dark, and I don't know shit. I remember it as more of a terrifying experience than an educational one.
Title: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: hobbsj on October 25, 2013, 09:04:04 am

Accuse me of any thing, I don"t care...It is superficial and show more frustration than a deep understanding. If you teach how to take decision in complex situation you should act like taking decision on a real problem than trying to insult other,



Wow, there is so much wrong with you making this statement.  I literally almost spit out my coffee.  Luke, you get an A for effort with a lot of this and trying to get people to think of things a bit more, but come on now.
Title: Re: Avalanche & Rappeling, etc...
Post by: lucky luke on October 25, 2013, 10:07:23 am
I think we agree on so many levels... I just try to constantly remember I was a newbie once

Try to remember that when a newbye pay 300$ to be safe, he realy think that he is safe. Safety is like a check box for them...he learned to rap...check, avalanche...check....superficially, not with a deep understanding. It is when he has bad experiences that he understand that learning climbing is not like a check box. Today, the accident are more relate to those kind of learning.