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General => Rock Climbing: Trad => Topic started by: lucky luke on February 19, 2014, 01:16:19 pm

Title: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 19, 2014, 01:16:19 pm
When you look a river in spring, you saw the ice pushing by the current. If the ice stop, it will create a dam... and it will inundate every think above the dam. In climbing, many people used the term clusterfuck when many party are stick between other.

As a debacle happen, or after a water fall, the ice flow can be so strong that it can destroy a bridge. It is also a situation that happen in climbing when a team try to pass other and place them in dangerous situation. Few years ago, a party was climbing half dome and try to pass an other by the right. The guy move a block that felt on his rope. The body was discover at the bottom of the cliff.

I think that when you climb, you most know the normal flow on a climb. For example, on standard route frankeinstein cliff, many party climb it by a warm day. If to be safe, only four party most be on the route at the same time, every one most respect that. Before, we call that measure of time the commitment rating.

As a forum, I thought that experience climber and guide most discuss what is the commitment rating and wrote it as it is in many guide book. As a climber, I wrote a blog to discuss more deeply the situation. You see the news at tv, but you read more detail in journal. So, I hope that people will understand that it is more a positive blog to the site than a competition between two forum.

The blog is: http://tradpartner.blog.com/     
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: DLottmann on February 19, 2014, 05:01:44 pm
You finally created a blog!

Where can I subscribe/follow? I could not find that spot and don’t want to miss any of your posts.

Standard Route at Frankenstein is a 2 pitch Grade II if you are looking for commitment rating... yes, you can break it up into 3 pitches if you really want to. Skilled climbers can 5th class it in under two hours. New climbers often take half a day, and get passed by other parties. It’s too popular to move slow on and not get passed by one of 3-4 variations...
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: perswig on February 19, 2014, 05:27:25 pm
Ice flow?

THIS is ice flow....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5waSw2mMfY

Yowza.
Dale
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: strandman on February 19, 2014, 06:21:11 pm
I'm  guess I'm not sure why mentioning half Dome is relevant to "ice flow"  Though i certainly have seen a lot of "snow flow" of HD
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 19, 2014, 07:14:28 pm
Ice flow?
THIS is ice flow....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5waSw2mMfY

very amazing.

I spoke about half dome because some quebec climber that I know was there just the pitch under the guy who died. Thre was alot of party in the climb, moving as a river. If every body stay at his place, there is less danger, just normal danger. But some guy want to bypass other who climb at a "normal" speed. In doing so, one climber died.

 
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 19, 2014, 07:17:44 pm
Standard Route at Frankenstein is a 2 pitch Grade II if you are looking for commitment rating... yes, you can break it up into 3 pitches if you really want to. Skilled climbers can 5th class it in under two hours. New climbers often take half a day, and get passed by other parties. It’s too popular to move slow on and not get passed by one of 3-4 variations...

Well it is the purpose of my blog. To know if we most just favorise the good fifth climber and make a moral interdiction to other climber, or if we most found a commitment rating for a climb. In standard route, a grade 5 climber can easily do the pillar which is a good grade four. and take more time to go to the summit.

I am for: if your are too fast, slow down or climb an other route, if you are too slow, work out a little bit more and try it later.
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: kenreville on February 19, 2014, 07:22:30 pm
Ice flow?

THIS is ice flow....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5waSw2mMfY

Yowza.
Dale

That is awesome.
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 19, 2014, 07:46:38 pm
That video was  super scary. there were people in the houses. i don't know if anyone got killed. Unsetteling for me.
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: pappy on February 20, 2014, 10:15:06 am
Back in the '60s Huascaron in Peru heated up and the ice cap cut loose. Killed 20,000 people in a village 12 miles from the mountain. Presumably most were wearing cotton. That was an ice flow.
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: old_school on February 20, 2014, 10:43:02 am
Back in the '60s Huascaron in Peru heated up and the ice cap cut loose. Killed 20,000 people in a village 12 miles from the mountain. Presumably most were wearing cotton. That was an ice flow.

Polypro would have saved 80% of them!   ;)
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: strandman on February 20, 2014, 04:36:59 pm
Ice is for pouring whiskey over..hamish Mcinnes...
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: pitonpat on February 20, 2014, 08:19:38 pm
Presumably most were wearing cotton.

Ooh, you're wicked!  My grandmother would have called you a "stir-stick".  :-)
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 20, 2014, 09:23:55 pm
I am for: if your are too fast, slow down or climb an other route, if you are too slow, work out a little bit more and try it later.

If you ever climb in a very nice day at cathedral, you will be able to see the climber moving like an ice flow.  some p[arty going slowqly and doesn;t want to be pass and some other you just keep going without care of other.

As a part of climbing hard, one can be good at yosemite classification and an other at the nccs:In a nutshell, the YDS : “categorizes terrain according to the techniques and physical difficulties encountered when rock climbing.” The NCCS describes the overall nature of a climb in terms of time and technical difficulty taking the following into account: length of climb, number of hard pitches, difficulty of hardest pitch, average difficulty, commitment, route finding problems, and overall ascent time. It is often call the “commitment grade.”  (mfoth, but not sure).

As some one work a route for ears: the commitment rating most be several months...
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: kenreville on February 20, 2014, 09:56:38 pm
HEY!!! Yeah You- Lucky Luke

"As some one work a route for ears: the commitment rating most be several months..."

Please elaborate on this sentence. WTF does it mean?

Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: xcrag_corex on February 20, 2014, 10:18:03 pm
..... I think he may be trying to convert us to metric?!?!?! ???
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 20, 2014, 11:20:24 pm
HEY!!! Yeah You- Lucky Luke

"As some one work a route for years(sic): the commitment rating most be several months..."

Please elaborate on this sentence. WTF does it mean?

I think that you know where I am going. :D

Definition of commitment rating: length of climb, number of hard pitches, difficulty of hardest pitch, average difficulty, commitment, route finding problems, and overall ascent time. It is often call the “commitment grade.

onsight: commitment, route finding problems, and overall ascent time

overall ascent time: seven month...  not really....
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: JBro on February 21, 2014, 10:09:17 am
(http://cdn.gifstache.com/2012/10/31/gifstache.com_2519_1351705089.gif)
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: old_school on February 21, 2014, 11:17:32 am
Ice is for pouring whiskey over..hamish Mcinnes...

Oban is nice too!!! But I like mine neat  ;)
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: strandman on February 21, 2014, 05:47:16 pm
Of course..keep things simple

Skinner said he fell 300+ times over 4 months freeing Salathe....commitment rating ????
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 21, 2014, 07:18:33 pm
Of course..keep things simple
Skinner said he fell 300+ times over 4 months freeing Salathe....commitment rating ????

If you consider of two climber with regard to onsight and working the route 300+ times, the one who onsight will climb harder than the other.

I agree that commitment rating is not good for competition.... it is for trad climber.
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: kenreville on February 21, 2014, 09:22:41 pm
(http://cdn.gifstache.com/2012/10/31/gifstache.com_2519_1351705089.gif)

Nice
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 24, 2014, 12:21:47 am
I agree that commitment rating is not good for competition.... it is for trad climber.

Lot of climber told me that they don"t have time to workout to climb hard and they want to climb because it is fun.

On the other side, they don"t want to be bad climber, so they want to do what the other does.

If they have three hours to climb a saturday, they can choose three hours of commitment and have fun at their level. So, they don"t have to be good, but just enjoy three hours of climbing.

In general, every body is able to climb 5.7 and it is possible to have a good chalenge at that level. In a gym, doing many lap at our level most be some thing natural. some one can have fun without be humiliate by a climber :"I climb harder than you because I am better"     
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: sneoh on February 24, 2014, 07:59:25 pm
Of course..keep things simple
Skinner said he fell 300+ times over 4 months freeing Salathe....commitment rating ????

If you consider of two climber with regard to onsight and working the route 300+ times, the one who onsight will climb harder than the other.

I agree that commitment rating is not good for competition.... it is for trad climber.
That is a good play on the word, commitment, John.  And Skinner showed impressive perseverance and commitment meeting his goals.
I am not sure what you are saying, LL.

Competition in climbing is not all bad if it is healthy and fun.  Hack, I am in competition with my past self often when I climb.  It keeps me motivated and going.  I am sure at least a few who frequent this board can identify with this :)
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: steve weitzler on February 25, 2014, 07:28:58 am

Competition in climbing is not all bad if it is healthy and fun.  Hack, I am in competition with my past self often when I climb.  It keeps me motivated and going.  I am sure at least a few who frequent this board can identify with this


I agree Soon. Unfortunatly the "Old Me" always wins that competition!! >:( >:(
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 25, 2014, 07:10:40 pm

Competition in climbing is not all bad if it is healthy and fun. 

I agree. I will say more emulation for trad climbing and competition for sport climbing...

althought a trad climber can use emulation to climb as hard as a sport one in remote area.
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: sneoh on February 25, 2014, 07:30:14 pm
Lots of emulating in sport too.  It depends on the situation, group dynamics, etc.
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 26, 2014, 10:50:16 am
Lots of emulating in sport too.  It depends on the situation, group dynamics, etc.

emulation: ambition to equal or excel

competition: strive to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others who are trying to do the same.

As I climbed a five pitch route, it is impossible that one climber stay on the ground and the other climb the pitch three. For that reason, you are looking for some one who equal or excel your ability and will try to be better.
In you sport climb, you don't need some one who can follow you or lead you to the top. You can work a route and if some one else did it, you can stay for hours in a cliff to beat him. In fact, the most competitive climber just need some one to hold the rope as he climb.

As a matter of fact, in sport, group are easier to make. Many people is at the bottom looking at you ready to laught if you mist it or applaud if you are better. In trad, the group is two persons. You just have to beat your partner if you compete. or you can work as a team where each people teach at the other some think. Even modesty by a newbye.

In trad, people will seat down in front of cathedral looking at climber and discussing technique as they take a beer. In sport they don't even think to look at a climber in refuse, except to notice there mistake.

It is little difference and there is more, but I think that they exist

Even in a forum, you read competitive note.

 
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: sneoh on February 26, 2014, 08:40:41 pm
In trad, the group is two persons. You just have to beat your partner if you compete. or you can work as a team where each people teach at the other some think.
Again, you are making assumptions that do not apply to everyone and in every situation.  The above happens quite a bit in sport too.  For me, almost every road trip to a sport area goes that way.  Surprise?  You should not be.  Generalization can be hazardous.
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: DLottmann on February 26, 2014, 10:38:21 pm
Surprise?  You should not be.  Generalization can be hazardous.

icwhatudidthar  ;D
Title: Re: ice flow
Post by: lucky luke on February 27, 2014, 11:34:27 am
Again, you are making assumptions that do not apply to everyone and in every situation.  The above happens quite a bit in sport too.  For me, almost every road trip to a sport area goes that way.  Surprise?  You should not be.  Generalization can be hazardous.

In crag talk in the early 80, a climber describe the move on recompense. Instead of describing a left layback, he describe the position to climb the diedral with the feet on the left wall. The climber follow is beta, try the move with the feet on the left...and bail. the second climber understand the movement of his body. Instead of trying to place the feet on the left wall, he follow the advice of the old climber and use is understanding of the left layback for a right layback, which is the same. You can ear an instruction and follow it....or you can understand a technique and use it many time after. The old climber teach him to have a deep understanding of technique, not a superficial one.

In what I said, I wrote: "althought a trad climber can use emulation to climb as hard as a sport one in remote area" .

So, it is a proof that I also consider that sport do emulation or, even worse, that trad make competition. And I know trad climber who compete in New-Hampshire.