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General => Beginners Area => Topic started by: lucky luke on October 29, 2014, 10:20:54 PM

Title: strategy to place the pro
Post by: lucky luke on October 29, 2014, 10:20:54 PM
As some one test his piece of protection on three or four pitches of a-1 aid climbing, a climber have a better knowledge of what is a bad stopper or cam (bouncing on a pro is not good. It hurt and the 200 pounds that you weight your stopper is to low in comparison to a fall factor greater than point five).

Knowing to place protection and knowing where to place a good protection is very different. Sit down in front of cathedral ledge, look at a bunch of trad climber like steve arsenault, jim surette, and many other and you will see that they places there pro pratically at the same place. In trad, we talk about strategy to optimize our safety limits.

In sport, the bolt are generally place at regular space. It is a strategy that we saw more often today. If they climb a run out, they want a bolt...and if they are some things that look like a good placement, they will used it even if it is not good. But what how can we learn to make a strategy?

I my opinion, one most know where they fall and if they fall on ledge or in the air. We saw some climber who place tons of pro making moves so dangerous that a four feet fall can broke a vertebrae and other who took a fifty feet fall without injury. So. knowing where you fall is for me the first criteria to amke a strategy... what are the other?
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: Lanky on October 30, 2014, 04:12:09 PM
Quote
In sport, the bolt are generally place at regular space. It is a strategy that we saw more often today. If they climb a run out, they want a bolt...and if they are some things that look like a good placement, they will used it even if it is not good. But what how can we learn to make a strategy?

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: Stephane on October 30, 2014, 07:17:46 PM
That's a lot of words to basically say: "be mindful to protect the pitch so you don't hit a ledge or the ground if you fall".
Just saying...
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: lucky luke on October 30, 2014, 07:40:26 PM
That's a lot of words to basically say: "be mindful to protect the pitch so you don't hit a ledge or the ground if you fall".
Just saying...

It is a little bit more than that. An other strategy than sport, a strategy to be fast, is to not protect the easy ground and just protect over 5.9. Of course, for that, you most be a good 5.10 climber. For that reason, I don't suggest to imitate the strong climber. I went to the yosemite and I saw many climber going "by the book" and many can't do a 5.7 run out or some times, they can't even protect the pitch as an expert to do the run out safely (twenty foot run out for example).

In trad, if you look at where you are going to fall, you will understand that you are going to be scare, but if you like that ethic of climbing, you will see the danger and also the solution to be safe. Instead of climbing a 5.10 the first year, maybe you will be at 5.6 or .7, but you will learn strategy to be safe.

In sport, you will learn that you can do it. You will arrive in a cliff and you can do it. When you are going to understand that the nuts can not hold your fall, you are going to be scare. The emotional pattern that you learn is not adapt for trad ethic...

As much as trad ethic is not adapt to sport.

How can we learn to make good strategy can be general, but also specific to one route. Climbing the nose and regular north face of half dome is different strategy, but the average lenght and difficulty is not to different.     
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: sneoh on October 30, 2014, 08:23:52 PM
I should know better than to feed the beast but after two glasses of wine, I can't help myself  ;)
First of all, this topic is in "Beginner's Area".  So why are we even talking about The Nose and Regular NW Face of Half Dome?  Better to keep to the target and say things which are immediately relevant and useful.
So here are my personal itemized recommendations to Beginners for strategy -
1.  There is no shame in backing off ANYTHING.  We have ALL BEEN THERE.  Do not get hurt, physically or to the psyche.  Live to fight another day,
2.  Start off by placing pro from good stances or where you are comfortable while fiddling with gear, etc.  This almost always mean climbing G rated routes for a while (a few years?),
3.  See if you can latch onto the age-old concept of "apprenticeship" and learn tools of the trade and tricks of the trade from more experienced and level-headed climbers,
4.  Don't rush it, grade wise or protected rating wise.  Enjoy the movement over rock and the tactic of figuring out the moves, the gear, and the rests, both before you start and while you are 60, 70, 80 feet above the ground/belay.  Above all, enjoy yourself by going at your own pace and do not let naysayers like LL/Champ scare you into thinking you are going to get into serious trouble if you do not cling on to every word he writes.  I guess it is miraculous that most of us climbed traditionally protected routes for years and never got hurt before LL/Champ came along lecturing us about safety.

"Grid bolted (regularly spaced)" sport routes went out with the 1990's, LL. More contemporary bolting makes the routes (mostly) safe but not sterile.  Over time, people learn, evolve, and do better.  Amen.
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: Admin Al on October 30, 2014, 08:56:29 PM
I should know better than to feed the beast but after two glasses of wine, I can't help myself  ;)
First of all, this topic is in "Beginner's Area".  So why are we even talking about The Nose and Regular NW Face of Half Dome?  Better to keep to the target and say things which are immediately relevant and useful.
So here are my personal itemized recommendations to Beginners for strategy -
1.  There is no shame in backing off ANYTHING.  We have ALL BEEN THERE.  Do not get hurt, physically or to the psyche.  Live to fight another day,
2.  Start off by placing pro from good stances or where you are comfortable while fiddling with gear, etc.  This almost always mean climbing G rated routes for a while (a few years?),
3.  See if you can latch onto the age-old concept of "apprenticeship" and learn tools of the trade and tricks of the trade from more experienced and level-headed climbers,
4.  Don't rush it, grade wise or protected rating wise.  Enjoy the movement over rock and the tactic of figuring out the moves, the gear, and the rests, both before you start and while you are 60, 70, 80 feet above the ground/belay.  Above all, enjoy yourself by going at your own pace and do not let naysayers like LL/Champ scare you into thinking you are going to get into serious trouble if you do not cling on to every word he writes.  I guess it is miraculous that most of us climbed traditionally protected routes for years and never got hurt before LL/Champ came along lecturing us about safety.

"Grid bolted (regularly spaced)" sport routes went out with the 1990's, LL. More contemporary bolting makes the routes (mostly) safe but not sterile.  Over time, people learn, evolve, and do better.  Amen.


+++
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: lucky luke on October 30, 2014, 09:59:50 PM

First of all, this topic is in "Beginner's Area".  So why are we even talking about The Nose and Regular NW Face of Half Dome?  Better to keep to the target and say things which are immediately relevant and useful.
So here are my personal itemized recommendations to Beginners for strategy -
1.  There is no shame in backing off ANYTHING.  We have ALL BEEN THERE.  Do not get hurt, physically or to the psyche.  Live to fight another day,....

Knowing that there is more than one strategy and more than a way to climb a route is use full for a beginner who just think to "follow the pro". There is a lot of strategy that beginner try that will save there life after.

What is a strategy?

Maybe it is the first question that a beginner should ask for themselves and which kind of strategy that he like to use.  One can learn technique first and safety after climbing on bolt or other will like to learn safety first and how to climb a route after.

As for your suggestion.  "Backing off any thing" is not a strategy...it is a skill that you develop when you want to develop with time. In general, a bolt is safe...when you climb on a cam, it is not as safe as with a bolt...when it is a stopper...you froze and want many of them... so psychologically, if the stopper is not as solid as a bolt...you are in danger. If you begin to learn on stopper, you will acquire the skill to be safe, with cam and stopper, you will be safer. Psychologically, you are going to be more confident when you begin to climb on stopper than when some on begin to climb on bolt (of course, we should keep the variability of each individual and his ego).

In fact, you need to back your nuts when you didn't have confidence in your protection. I wrote a topic on the subject (evolution of the protection). Knowing the limit of your rack is as important as knowing the dimension of your car. The majority of the suggestion of sneoh is general assumption. I can make a mistake, but there is nothing that will help to make a strategy by your own.

It is like travelling. You can buy a trip all organize or you can choose and decide where you are going and what you like to see. Trad is more like a road trip and... if you like that...you need to understand what is a strategy.
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: sneoh on October 30, 2014, 10:25:44 PM
Luke, by "ANYTHING" I meant ANY ROUTE, not any pro in particular.  Sorry if you were confused by the language.
I have said my piece.  Al gave me "+++" so I am done with this.  Please carry on as you like.  Feel free to express your opinions.
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: DGoguen on October 31, 2014, 08:17:03 AM
  Al gave me "+++"
Are those self adhesive or do you have to tape them to your forehead? Ha  ;D
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: sneoh on October 31, 2014, 08:42:06 AM
I am going to get it tattooed there!
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: Admin Al on October 31, 2014, 10:49:08 AM
I am going to get it tattooed there!

+++ +
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: kenreville on October 31, 2014, 12:48:50 PM
Quote
In sport, the bolt are generally place at regular space. It is a strategy that we saw more often today. If they climb a run out, they want a bolt...and if they are some things that look like a good placement, they will used it even if it is not good. But what how can we learn to make a strategy?

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Now you've done it. LL's just getting warmed up. Wait till he starts with the quoting of himself. Which he does regularly.
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: strandman on October 31, 2014, 02:53:12 PM
LL- in spite of what you seem to think, not everyone freaks out when ever there may be a runout...are you always frightened when climbing ? or constantly thinking about ledge falls ?

Deal with it and move on

And where are all these death climbs ? 
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: steve weitzler on October 31, 2014, 04:26:46 PM
And where are all these death climbs ?



Quincy Quarries. ;) ;)
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: lucky luke on October 31, 2014, 07:05:37 PM
What is a strategy...or what is the strategy of the people above when we are talking about trad climbing?

Strategy, in trad, means; a plan of action designed to achieve an overall aim.

first you most have an objective, an intention to do a route. Gave me a plane ticket, and i will fly to "Les drus" in France because I began to climb with a story on that mountain. It is just 5.7, but for me...it is valuable.

second, it is a plan of action. You want to do the route in four or two pitches? where do you want to built your anchor (when there is no bolt....more fun), which grade, etc.

The answer of all those questions, and some more, make a plan and after you have your plan, you can do it in real life. and make it or fail.

But, as a beginner, what is more fun? to learn how to make a strategy to climb a route, which is the same as a strategy to find a great job, or to always do what dgoguen, sneoh, kenreville and the other wrote?   

 
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: Stephane on October 31, 2014, 10:08:55 PM
What is a strategy...or what is the strategy of the people above when we are talking about trad climbing?

Strategy, in trad, means; a plan of action designed to achieve an overall aim.

first you most have an objective, an intention to do a route. Gave me a plane ticket, and i will fly to "Les drus" in France because I began to climb with a story on that mountain. It is just 5.7, but for me...it is valuable.

second, it is a plan of action. You want to do the route in four or two pitches? where do you want to built your anchor (when there is no bolt....more fun), which grade, etc.

The answer of all those questions, and some more, make a plan and after you have your plan, you can do it in real life. and make it or fail.

But, as a beginner, what is more fun? to learn how to make a strategy to climb a route, which is the same as a strategy to find a great job, or to always do what dgoguen, sneoh, kenreville and the other wrote?   

Man, you are really overthinking. I mean, seriously.
And I really don't get what the Nose and les Drus are bringing to the point, if not mere name-dropping effect.
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: lucky luke on November 01, 2014, 09:38:34 AM
.
And I really don't get what the Nose and les Drus are bringing to the point, if not mere (and pretty cheap) name-dropping effect.

If you look at the definition of strategy: "Strategy, in trad, means; a plan of action designed to achieve an overall aim"

at the end, you have "overall aim". For people like sneoh, strandman, and some other... the overall aim is to have the first ascent of very hard route that they work and place the bolt with drill and reach there goal. is it just for the glory? to have themoney to buy the bolts, or personal choices, or what ever else? I don't know.

The reality is that a bunch of people like to make exercise and don't like regular gym, they have children and don't want to risk to be injure, they have a job, but don't want to invest time in preparation to do there sport. You take your harness and rope and you go climbing. For them, and it is a majority of climber, sport climbing is great. They went in a gym, socialize with other, reach high goal in terms of level of climbing (5.9 - 5.10) and do that in term of leasure. Boulder is like that too for some people.

Some other people, and there is a lot of them, like hiking. They went to the store, choose carefully there equipment, test it in bad situation, schedule there multi day trip, find partner, workout with full equipment. So, they take about the same amount of time to be ready for a big goal than to do the objective. Some people says: it took five minute to reach the summit, but five year of pleasure to be able to stand close to the summit. The summit is not the goal any more, went you reach the top, your aim is behind you.

So, it is three strategy that people can have. In trad, and you can ask to many old climber, the goal in the gold time was to reach the summit with good style, bottom up. Lost arrow, in yosemite, was first done with a rope trow from above over the summit. It was said that the success of the route was done in bad style.

What is your aim, how many hour can you have for your vacation or week end, what is your responsabilities... those question are all a part of strategy...first to decide which ethic you want to do or....

to annoy those who try to explain the difference between ethic.

your question was fun to answer   
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: xcrag_corex on November 01, 2014, 02:51:28 PM
I am going to get it tattooed there!

+++ +
Al, I am quite confused. Are you adding a plus because he's getting it tattooed, or is that 4 additional plus signs for a grand total of 7? That can start taking up face space pretty quick. Either way, if you decide to move forward with the ink, I know a guy that does great work at reasonable rates...Sneoh.... Don't let us down... Now that you've committed...
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: strandman on November 01, 2014, 04:41:57 PM
I translated this post to another  language,,planet lepton  now i agree that my strategy is to place pro
Title: Re: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: DGoguen on November 01, 2014, 06:59:42 PM
That can start taking up face space pretty quick.

Can't speak for everyone but I'm pretty sure a lot of  people here are gaining forehead space on a yearly basis.;)

Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: Jeff on November 01, 2014, 07:07:21 PM
Gives us more space for the "face palm" required after reading LL's latest strategy to render us drooling & speechless  :P
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: sneoh on November 01, 2014, 07:11:42 PM
For people like sneoh, strandman, and some other... the overall aim is to have the first ascent of very hard route that they work and place the bolt with drill and reach there goal. is it just for the glory? to have themoney to buy the bolts, or personal choices, or what ever else? I don't know.

Hey, Luke, you got your facts wrong, again!  I never have had an FA, only lucky to have a 2nd or 3rd.  And frankly, an FA is too much work for me!  Especially the cleaning!!  I have never placed a bolt but have contributed to several bolt/anchor replacement efforts on the East Coast (looking fwd to doing in person at Peni one day, JohnS!).  Climb for glory? Not at all.  I climb for fun, with friends, and being away from my desk job (a very rewarding job but still a desk job). 

Please express your opinions but please without pulling the "I am holier than thou" attitude here.   And, deny it or not, mentioning Yosemite and les Drus is name dropping with the aim of gaining credibility.  On this Forum?  Please stop before you lose even more of your credibility, whatever is left of it.
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: sneoh on November 01, 2014, 07:14:27 PM
That can start taking up face space pretty quick.

Can't speak for everyone but I'm pretty sure a lot of  people here are gaining forehead space on a yearly basis.;)
Definitely speak for yourself!  I have crazy genes which still allow me to have a head full of black hair.  No lie.  But there are downsides.
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: lucky luke on November 02, 2014, 08:00:06 AM
Hey, Luke, you got your facts wrong, again!  I never have had an FA, only lucky to have a 2nd or 3rd.  And frankly, an FA is too much work for me!  Especially the cleaning!!  I have never placed a bolt but have contributed to several bolt/anchor replacement efforts on the East Coast (looking fwd to doing in person at Peni one day, JohnS!).  Climb for glory? Not at all.  I climb for fun, with friends, and being away from my desk job (a very rewarding job but still a desk job). 

Sorry if I made a mistake, your goal look like the one I describe for sport climber. But you are the only one that know your objective (aim) and know a strategy to reach it.

some older people , climb great route and just want to be in a cliff and talk with others at the bottom. There is those who like competition and went to fight you. You meet some one and he didn't want to climb with you, he want to know if he his better than you. there is also those who climb to have promotion at there work. They don't really like climbing. some people just do the minimum to have there course of guide...compare to a guide who told me: Luke, I wasn't going to school because I was going climbing, so I didn't have my degree. I have to work and I have the chance to do what I like the most...climbing. Unfortunately, a lot of guide actually just do the minimum and, some times, they don't even have the prerequisite.

One objective is to make climbing dangerous. If there is accident, there will be less climber. If there is less climber, they won't be able to find partner and the technique that people develop in fifty years of climbing will disappear. At each time some one, me particularly, talk about "to be prepare for a climb" one of you say stupidity to place all the people in the same strategy: boulder, sport, trad. Nobody can reach there objective by themselves, they have to be humiliate on boulder competition, scare because your memory remember some fall in a boulder that hurt you and you have to fall on bolt the same way (psychological pattern) and totally unprepared to place pro, scary by the fall that you took on bolt, and you know that a stopper is not as good as a bolt, and without adequate technique for multi-pitch route with a rack.

The reason why those people make climbing dangerous are ordinarily bad: to make money...or it can be good if it is because they lost close friends or relative in the mountain and they want to protect them. Lower the number and you lower the number of injure people?

It could be the subject of a thread, but not in this place. The important is to be able to fix your goal. If you have children and you want to climb in the yosemite at forty, your strategy won't be the same as if you want to climb all sport climbing area in the west.

 
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: strandman on November 02, 2014, 11:33:02 AM
True LL I climb for glory and to place bolts, because I have the money to do so.  You are so fucking whacked out i don't know what to say....Are you jealous ? Crazy ? don't know

Try the Captain some time 11A so it's a moderate route.14 bolts for pro , so it's not runout,,and put up on site your your prurity will survive..

You know what ? don't ..stay off my climbs..they will start to rot from your shit
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: lucky luke on November 02, 2014, 04:42:13 PM
Try the Captain some time 11A so it's a moderate route.14 bolts for pro , so it's not runout,,and put up on site your your prurity will survive...

I am not going to do so. I am not in competition with you and if I was at the bottom of the route and it look like interesting to me, I will climb it. In general, I climbed bolt route to work my technique. I agree that sport climber is very interesting for technique and I like to climb sport in spring and fall with some of my friends.

I don't know why you are climbing. I just know that our ethic is so at each opposition that I still don't understand why you took time to wrote on my subject.

You say that there is no difference between sport and trad. the last topic in sport section is from 3 october. why don't you wrote a topic for the people who climb like you. It will be more positive than talking about shit...
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: perswig on November 02, 2014, 06:55:41 PM
John, don't make eye contact and back away slooooowly......


And Sneoh, you continue to demonstrate impressive patience; you wouldn't be a parent, would you?
Dale
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: sneoh on November 02, 2014, 07:46:00 PM
Yes, Dale, I am a parent to a very bright, head strong, and cheeky 8-1/2 year old (who thinks she knows as much as any adult out there).  Kids these days!
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: ed_esmond on November 02, 2014, 07:59:59 PM
some older people , climb great route and just want to be in a cliff and talk with others at the bottom. There is those who like competition and went to fight you.

personally, i go to crags to fight…

i used to go to grim biker bars, but there always was some big, bad, evil muther-fracker who'd kick my @ss. 

obviously, a bad strategy…

my new and improved strategy was to switch to sport crags.  most there are either hot chixs in lycra, or scrawny, beanie wearing, pigeon-chested geeks who obsess constantly: "oh, i hope i am strong enough to do that move tomorrow…."

my success rate went waaay up…

as some kind of "older people," i thought this would help.

ed e

Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: neiceclimber on November 03, 2014, 07:45:33 AM
^^^^^^ Brilliant.
Title: Re: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: DGoguen on November 03, 2014, 10:15:36 AM
personally, i go to crags to fight…

I would have to agree with LL on this one.

With family commitments and a busy work schedule I find it much more convenient to head over to my local gym a couple nights a week and start a fight there.

Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: sneoh on November 03, 2014, 10:40:42 AM
LOL.
I think we might have a new sport in the making, box and climb instead of xc and shoot!  Absolutely brilliant! :)
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: triguy on November 03, 2014, 10:45:18 AM
Don't forget the first rule of Fight Club.....
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: xcrag_corex on November 03, 2014, 01:37:03 PM
Don't forget the first rule of Fight Club.....
protect the second?!?!
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: triguy on November 03, 2014, 04:03:05 PM
Ethics man, ethics....it's all about the ethics!!!
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: sneoh on November 03, 2014, 07:24:20 PM
I thought the first rule of FC is to NEVER talk about FC.
Title: Re: strategy to place the pro
Post by: xcrag_corex on November 03, 2014, 07:27:39 PM
Ok. We stop talking about it now. But next time any of us hit the crag we vow a round of mouth punches to anyone in striking distance.