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General => Beginners Area => Topic started by: lucky luke on November 29, 2014, 10:39:07 PM

Title: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on November 29, 2014, 10:39:07 PM
Some of us dream to climb a route that we saw in a book or in the cliff and we want to know what we can do to realize our project the next summer. In a gym, you have sport route, but it is not really a place for trad climbing.

if you ask for it, there will be some gym who will make route for trad climber. First of all, You have to understand that it is basic technical route for one kind of movement. For example, you want to climb the last temptation  at cathedral ledge. The crux is a long and notorious strenuous hand traverse. In a gym, a hand traverse is a section of the wall with no feet and just an horizontal selection of hold for your hands. if you do a route to workout hand traverse, you will have to place two or three hold vertically, an horizontal section with two inches hold of five feet long going to the right, three to four hold place vertically in a way that we can't use the hand traverse with the feet, an other horizontal section with one inches holds to the left, and two or three more section of vertical and horizontal holds to the top.

So, as a work out, you will work hand traverse with different kind of hold. If you climb bottom up, you are going to be more tired as you climb smaller hold and it will be a test to know how stamina you had and if you can try a route like last temptation, rate 5.10. For more spice, you can clip bolt place at each side of the traverse. or you can clip a bolt in the side and one in the middle of the traverse and an other to the side....

As a trad climber you can make it more difficult. You can attach a sling on the bolt with a girth hitch, remove the sling, clip your quick draw,  replace the sling for the other climber and finish the traverse. The game is to climb 5.10, it is not to be better than your partner. So, you have a route that you can work for four week and still make progress in it.

Furthermore, I describe a hand traverse because it is easy to describe. You can do some other technique harder to describe, but with the same crescendo of difficulty as you go up. For example, you can do layback, stemming, mantel, counterforce, stemming, undercling...etc. It is all basic technique to be able to climb in trad...safely. In art of climbing, of John Long, he describe those technique.
 
So, ask in your gym to have trad routes. More people will ask for it, more ready you will be when you are going to on sight a new route outside.   
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: Nick Grant on November 29, 2014, 11:27:58 PM
God help us all . . .
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on November 30, 2014, 07:22:47 AM
Gym Training by Luke, bestseller for sure.  Gym owners will rush to buy it.  Must read for head setters.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: markvnh on November 30, 2014, 08:19:49 AM
Oh boy...not sure I've had enough coffee for that yet...
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: kenreville on November 30, 2014, 10:59:20 AM
LL- time to reach for your bottle of meds and wash one down.

You are on meds, right?
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: JBro on November 30, 2014, 11:06:31 AM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--Hje8S_9EfY/U8cNTRXjU5I/AAAAAAAAA1k/6OfXfuqWaNI/s1600/poison.gif)
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on November 30, 2014, 11:29:49 AM
God help us all . . .

And people ask why i drink.....by the way..last Temptation's crux is not the hand traverse..it's pulling up from the traverse onto to the 10+ face climbing
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: The other tomcat on November 30, 2014, 12:02:06 PM
That's what I thought, but it was snowing when I led it....lol!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: snowleopard on November 30, 2014, 12:06:21 PM
Attention Beginners...DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO YET MORE LL BULLSHIT!

THE VALUE OF THIS DRIVEL IS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY

"training" for Last Temptation in the Beginner Forum.... ::)

JBrochu can you get the coffee woman to serve a special house blend for LL now?
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: bikewrench on November 30, 2014, 05:09:47 PM
Is that Scarlet Johansson?
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on November 30, 2014, 05:30:29 PM
yes..but she is sport..ignore her :P
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on November 30, 2014, 05:42:37 PM
"training" for Last Temptation in the Beginner Forum.... ::)

In sport, a beginner is a 5.9 climber, so it is not a mistake for a beginner to work out to climb a hard route. Next summer can be too soon, but it can be a good workout and fun as it will at there level 

In fact, you can begin to climb the Everest, but you will begin with smaller goal. Training for a goal is always more pleasant than climbing just for climbing. Success and failure is part of the game and if some one can not top rope all the trad route built in a gym, maybe he will see a progression from week to week as he will be able to climb it without fall to the third traverse the first time and to the fifth one four week after

The idea of trad route is to gain some technique, as a layback is a layback, and also to gain some strength. In sport, it is more to reproduce a complex movement made after many try, or made after people gave them beta. In sport, it is possible to climb hard route and harder you climb,more popular you are.

Is it what every people want? I don't think so. I read your post and I always try to understand why is it a bad thing to do what John Long teach in the art of leading?
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on November 30, 2014, 05:58:02 PM
Ok..but LT is 10+.....You know what Largo says ????I do  "it's a BOOK"
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on November 30, 2014, 05:59:40 PM
"training" for Last Temptation in the Beginner Forum.... ::)
+1.  Glad I am not the only one having this thought.

As a part-time setter of many years, I can however say, given the constraints of gym walls/terrain and holds in general, it is quite hard to mimic an outdoor route most of the time.  What gym owners and head setters want are routes that are engaging but yet not too difficult to decipher at the grade, and not injurious.   
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: Lucky Lucy on November 30, 2014, 06:34:49 PM
LL,
you need to find some better quality weed!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: Jeff on November 30, 2014, 06:42:14 PM
If Scarlett is sport, I'd like to get into sport :-*
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on November 30, 2014, 07:09:30 PM
In sport, it is possible to climb hard route and harder you climb,more popular you are.
You are excused for having this misunderstanding.  It is hard to know anything about a thing which you have such a low opinion of!!

Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: Nemesis on November 30, 2014, 07:25:46 PM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--Hje8S_9EfY/U8cNTRXjU5I/AAAAAAAAA1k/6OfXfuqWaNI/s1600/poison.gif)
God I love her
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on November 30, 2014, 08:28:31 PM
As a part-time setter of many years, I can however say, given the constraints of gym walls/terrain and holds in general, it is quite hard to mimic an outdoor route most of the time.

The idea is not to "mimic" an outdoor route or to climb the route indoor.

The goal is to built our strength and to learn the technique.  I took last temptation because the second pitch is an obvious hand crack. I read to fast that it was the crux. The second pitch is 5.9+. An horizontal hand crack is easy to visualize for a beginner and easy to built in a gym. i am sure that some climber have great imagination and will do great training route for trad ethic.

As I said, there is not a lot of difference between climbing outside and inside in sport. You work hard move at the limit of your possibility. The holds are in plastic instead of rock. I don't find a lot of differences in the mentality too. The climber learn a complex movement and is able to reproduce that movement in other situation

In trad, the goal is not to reach the top, but to make a perfect movement in easy situation to be able to make a sequences of basic movement in an other situation.

Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: kenreville on November 30, 2014, 08:54:56 PM
So let me get this straight....

You've never climbed Last Temptation? You were just perusing through your holy bible (the guidebook) and figured someway of incorporating what you think the climbing will be into a training routine in the gym? Is that it?

This is wrong on SO many levels, the least of which being that you're a 100% "trad" climber and not allowed to set foot on an indoor wall.

Good lord, EVERYONE knows that.  ::)
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on November 30, 2014, 10:57:44 PM
As I said, there is not a lot of difference between climbing outside and inside in sport. You work hard move at the limit of your possibility. The holds are in plastic instead of rock. I don't find a lot of differences in the mentality too.
Overall, I know what you are trying to state clearly.  As Ed had mentioned, there is a nugget of truth in there somewhere.
But, the quote above I do not think it is true for most who have had a year or two of climbing under their belt.
Best not to mix "indoor mentality" with "outdoor mentality".  That is one way to get hurt.
Though I might be taking it to the extreme; I have different set of gear (harness, rope, belay device, shoes, chalk bag, protection) for outdoors and in.  I never want to mistake one for the other.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 01, 2014, 06:41:03 AM
You've never climbed Last Temptation?

I do training like that. For climbing the nose, I did a part of the girdle traverse with a haul bag. I went to some cliff to work out different kind of diedral, I did the pine tree eliminate crack and the two other on the right of them to practice off with. I work out my technique.

I most say that when you are unsure of a move, that you can fall on your pro, that you decide what you are going to make as a move without knowing what you are going to find on the other side...it is pretty fun to feel that you have enough training under your belt to stay on the cliff.

I remember climbing fastest gun at poko, on sighting all the pitches, and after I decide how to make a crux and did the moved, found myself caught in the real crux because I did a mistake and making a layback with a hand jam in a roof to a safe place to get out of the problem. It is different than knowing the move to do and making a routine to climb to the top. Not saying which one is more fun, butfor me it is the unknow and how my progress in technique that I like.   
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 01, 2014, 07:53:30 AM
I did the pine tree eliminate crack.

Wow, you really are a hardman!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: kenreville on December 01, 2014, 11:22:00 AM
Pine Tree Eliminate is not an offwidth, BTW. Try Peanut Gallery. THAT's an offwidth.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on December 01, 2014, 04:16:44 PM
LL maybe you should read "how to train for the Nose"....

Anybody want to tell me how to train for Liquid Sky ???

and BTW   LT is a hand traverse NOT a hand crack...# 3 friend and a #6 stopper if I remember...shit LL don't read that......beta
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: steve weitzler on December 01, 2014, 07:11:55 PM
I do recall that the Boston Rock Gym had two granite (one finger and one hand) cracks that sucked up pro quite nicely. Very realistic.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 02, 2014, 08:13:59 AM
I do recall that the Boston Rock Gym had two granite (one finger and one hand) cracks that sucked up pro quite nicely. Very realistic.

I have been to many of the largest gyms in the USA when I was the head coach for Steve and those two REAL GRANITE cracks in the BRG were badass and how they were made was real cool. I remember working on them with Tom. 10D/11A slightly flaring wide hand crack that would take cams real nice and a thin finger crack that goes at about 12B that eats wires and small cams if you can hang on! There was also a WAY COOL off width that I got my knee stuck in the day after it was finished. We at one point were talking about how to open the crack a bit with car jacks! My knee was swollen and a great shade of black and purple for a month. That was not funny at the time and I don't know if Steve ever heard about that one.

Those two cracks are the only real trad climbs in a gym anywhere that I know of and only because they can both be lead safely by a competent leader on real gear!

Those 2 climbs will never be copied in any gym anywhere, they are special! Many of us who climb hard today owe a lot of it to the training that we were able to do at the BRG in the early days. They were one of the first gyms in the country and in the beginning were making their own holds from secrete because there were no commercial holds even being made!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: eyebolter on December 02, 2014, 04:43:40 PM

My complaint about gym cracks is that they are always too hard to get people into crack climbing.  Imagine how popular (not) rock gyms would be if all the routes were at least 5.11.

I mean, how do you learn to crack climb on a 12b? 
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: steve weitzler on December 02, 2014, 06:02:05 PM
The fact is you can't learn to crack climb on cracks that are 12B but I do remember doing some aid climbing workshops utilizing them. I guess the philosophy of the BRG was always to try to mimic climbs and features that were found outdoors and to teach skills that were applicable to climbing outside. That is why we always offered self-rescue workshops, aid climbing workshops, anchor building etc. I find that many of todays gyms do a poor job of that. It seems gyms today want to be ropes courses, yoga studios, cardio, common workspace and all that other bullshit. Rock gyms should teach and focus on rock climbing. No doubt that other auxiliary activities help with climbing but if I want to do yoga I will go to a yoga studio, I will go to the YMCA if i want to do nautilus, and I will work at home or rent an office if I need to do work. Concerts, skateboarding etc aren't climbing. It's silly. Now that I have opened up that can of worms……... :angel: :angel:
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: eyebolter on December 02, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
Not slagging your gym Steve, it was state of the art for the time. Heck, I met my wife there when I was climbing in a cast.

But how about a plain old 5.6 hand crack?  Never seen one in a gym, though it would be far more useful than a painful 5.12. 

Gym climbers can't jam to save their ass, and I guess that is why.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 02, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
I have been to many of the largest gyms in the USA when I was the head coach for Steve and those two REAL GRANITE cracks in the BRG were badass and how they were made was real cool. I remember working on them with Tom. 10D/11A slightly flaring wide hand crack that would take cams real nice and a thin finger crack that goes at about 12B

fortunately, it is not what I was suggesting. 5.12 crack is not for a beginner. But a beginner can make a hand traverse with hold of two inches and be able to learn the technique and apply it outside in many places.

intermediate climber can built there stamina if they lead the route and simulate the time that he took to place the pro by on tying a girth hitch on a sling before he clip is quickdraw.

Finally an expert can use the route to do laps and work out one kind of movement in different angle.

We are very far from a 5.12 crack     
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 02, 2014, 08:03:13 PM
But how about a plain old 5.6 hand crack?  Never seen one in a gym, though it would be far more useful than a painful 5.12.

There was and easy crack there Ward but it was probably put in after you were climbing there and it was just wood and not leadable.

I have to agree with Steve on all the other BS that has become climbing gyms. Hanging around having a latte before yoga will not likely make you a much better climber. The BRG had plain wood walls that were steep but not so fancy and many of us got really strong there because it was ALL about the climbing. We put a lot of effort into route setting there and that's why people got strong. Every year Steve sent a bunch of us to nationals and we were competing on a regular basis against kids from some of the fanciest gyms in the country at the time. We were training on our simple, steep, 24' high walls and winning. You don't need fancy to train, you need good route setting. Many times Steve also brought in some of the top climbers and trainers to work with his coaching staff and the team. Hans Florine for example was brought in for 4 days to work with myself and the other coach and then with the team. The OLD BRG was all about climbing and nothing else.

I miss the old BRG Steve, we had a lot of fun there and got real strong at the same time.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 02, 2014, 08:05:51 PM
We are very far from a 5.12 crack     

And you are very far from the real world!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: markvnh on December 02, 2014, 08:18:18 PM
...I'm pretty sure I remember Todd Skinner giving a Free Salathe slide show at the old BRG in Somerville. If it wasn't there it was somewhere in Boston.

Plus Good Morning America doing a segment from there!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: steve weitzler on December 02, 2014, 08:48:30 PM
Todd came to the gym a number of times. Actually we had numerous "well known" celebrity climbers giving clinics and shows on a regular basis. Bobbi Bensman, Shelly Presson, Hans F. and Steve Schneider, Peter Mayfield, Fred Becky, Dale Goddard, Robyn and Didier, Stefan Glowacz, Ed Webster, Stephen Venables, Kurt and Elaina Smith to just name a few and I have probably forgot just as many as I have named. Obviously I am biased but the BRG was built and created by climbers for climbers no ropes courses, lattes, yoga, work space, skate boarders, bands etc. But…..climbing has changed and so do the business models.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 02, 2014, 08:57:57 PM
The fact is you can't learn to crack climb on cracks that are 12B

If you want to climb 5.13, you can learn nothing???
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: Nick Grant on December 02, 2014, 09:33:54 PM
When did BRG originally open? I dropped out of the Boston climbing scene in 1986, so it must have been after that.  In '86, if you referred to "indoor climbing," many climbers would assume that you were talking about the MIT Student Center which had a great traversing wall downstairs for building finger strength.  (The stairs were also pretty good for climbing as well . . . )
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: OldEric on December 02, 2014, 10:01:09 PM
I think the original BRG opened in Sommerville in 88 (maybe 87 - where is Steve W?).  There were a couple of precursors besides the basement of the MIT Student Union (which was quite useful) - the Wakefield Y (again we need Steve's input) and the Hampshire College gym.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on December 03, 2014, 11:18:56 AM
trad in gyms..and then liability reared up it's ugly head

Coach used to have a really long wooden jam board at Tufts.like 40'   horizontal...I really sucked at it..especailly when it moved around
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 03, 2014, 12:26:21 PM
trad in gyms..and then liability reared up it's ugly head

Well, I don't think so. You associate trad with danger.

It is also possible that, if the climber don't "mimic" what they learned in sport in trad route...we are going to lower the number of accident outside, increase the number of climber and the gym will make more money.

Of course, if you are at the gym and have to decide between sport and trad or to do both, with different goal and ethic...maybe outside the people are going to be safer...

without thinking that sport is better or worse than spoort.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on December 03, 2014, 02:25:25 PM
I associate trad with danger ????

Ask a gym owner about liability sometime..or for that matter a landowner  (like Band M) owners
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 03, 2014, 03:34:57 PM
Pretty sure Luke has stated in the past that there is more danger in placing gear than simply clipping a bolt... Good thing he's not on a fixed gear bike folks, as his last statement is a back pedal for sure....
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 03, 2014, 05:56:03 PM
I associate trad with danger ????

if the liability is higher...that's means that trad is more dangerous.

if you thing that liability is lower, that mean that trad is less dangerous
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on December 03, 2014, 05:58:46 PM
No, it doesn't.....it's a gym and liability is required. The insurance company doesn't know the diff
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: steve weitzler on December 03, 2014, 06:10:46 PM
The Y wall I built was in 1987. The original BRG was 1989. And yes insurance was a beast to pay for but originally I had to educate the insurance companies as to what we were doing. Sometime later (maybe 1995) myself and a few other gym owners and managers (Casey Newman, Nate Postma, Peter Mayfield, Rich Johnston and a few others) created the CGA (climbing gym association) which I think is now the CWA (climbing wall association). Essentially this was an industry group that set standards and policies for climbing gyms so that we could secure insurance at a better rate and insure safety standards across all gyms.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 03, 2014, 06:43:59 PM
I remember the old wall in the y with the home made holds.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 03, 2014, 08:20:32 PM
Essentially this was an industry group that set standards and policies for climbing gyms so that we could secure insurance at a better rate and insure safety standards across all gyms.

So, if you read the first post and construct a trad route like the one suggest with hand traverse...

Is it going to be more expensive in liability or the same?

Strandman said, I think, that the liability will be higher. I said that we will have less accident with injury outside, with the same liability in the gym!!!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: JBro on December 04, 2014, 09:09:02 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/FT8WtOe.gif)
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: snowleopard on December 04, 2014, 12:11:48 PM
LMAO!

Best reaction to the LL bullshit ever.  Priceless

Post Hijack now for a reminder:  With winter conditions in full swing don't forget
to stock up on plenty of cotton t-shirts for baselayers.  Be sure to size properly so
the back doesn't ride up exposing bare skin.  We want to keep that soggy, sweat
soaked material close to the skin....nice wet and warm!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 05, 2014, 07:11:48 AM
Post Hijack now for a reminder:  With winter conditions in full swing don't forget
to stock up on plenty of cotton t-shirts for baselayers.  Be sure to size properly so
the back doesn't ride up exposing bare skin.  We want to keep that soggy, sweat
soaked material close to the skin....nice wet and warm!

I hardly ice climb anymore because over the last few years I have totally lost my tolerance to the cold. Maybe if I had climbed more with a trad ethic in the gym while practicing "pigeon wings" in wet t-shirts that would not have happened! ;D

Your advice is needed oh Master Luke! :P ::)
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 05, 2014, 08:33:59 AM
Best reaction to the LL bullshit ever.  Priceless

Post Hijack now for a reminder:  With winter conditions in full swing don't forget
to stock up on plenty of cotton t-shirts for baselayers.  Be sure to size properly so
the back doesn't ride up exposing bare skin.  We want to keep that soggy, sweat
soaked material close to the skin....nice wet and warm!

I never said that. It is your bullshit!!!

I do say that you can stay dry by removing a wet layer that, in other way, you are going dry it by evaporation. what make a garment dangerous it is the speed at which the evaporation is done. In cotton, the evaporation is slow ; in the new garment, the evaporation is fast.

If some one transpire (it is the good term for Gortex technology) a lot, they are going to froze in new garment because evaporation need kilo calories of your body to transform liquid into gas. If you keep the water in a kind of pouch, and remove the pouch at the good moment... you will remove the water by an other way than transpiration and keep your calories to keep you warm, not for evaporation.

In the case of cross country skier, the energy produce by the exercise is more than the energy need for the evaporation. So, hydrophobic garment, which repulse the water from the body, will be better because the evaporation will help to lower the temperature of the body.

Try this, 10 person...5 with cotton lawer, 5 with hydrophobic garment...you ski for an our at a good speed. Stop. The one with cotton layer change there t-shirt and wait for an hour as in a belay. Do that for six ours, three times. Those with the new garment will be froze and the other will be o.k. So, we talk about six hours of exercise...climbing Huntington ravine for example.

I don't say any thing else than test it The result can change with outside temperature, body metabolism, wind, boot isolation, etc.

In my last post, I ask a question: is it going to cost more if you built a trad or a sport route? in term of liability. I am sure that it is the same. The gym was built in 1984, it is less than 28 years of life. Instead of making the sport more popular by a better understanding, you show that you can insult any body for few box. Instead of applying one economic principle, diversify your product, you try to concentrate the public in the only thing that you are good at (look at sport and bouldering...boulder was not popular before an now it is).

People understand what I am saying, as edmon said, they laught at your stupidity and don't say nothing about the way to gain a diversity of knowledge because you insult them.       

 
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 05, 2014, 08:41:06 AM
Best reaction to the LL bullshit ever.  Priceless

Post Hijack now for a reminder:  With winter conditions in full swing don't forget
to stock up on plenty of cotton t-shirts for baselayers.  Be sure to size properly so
the back doesn't ride up exposing bare skin.  We want to keep that soggy, sweat
soaked material close to the skin....nice wet and warm!

I never said that. It is your bullshit!!!

I do say that you can stay dry by removing a wet layer that, in other way, you are going dry it by evaporation. what make a garment dangerous it is the speed at which the evaporation is done. In cotton, the evaporation is slow ; in the new garment, the evaporation is fast.

If some one transpire (it is the good term for Gortex technology) a lot, they are going to froze in new garment because evaporation need kilo calories of your body to transform liquid into gas. If you keep the water in a kind of pouch, and remove the pouch at the good moment... you will remove the water by an other way than transpiration and keep your calories to keep you warm, not for evaporation.

In the case of cross country skier, the energy produce by the exercise is more than the energy need for the evaporation. So, hydrophobic garment, which repulse the water from the body, will be better because the evaporation will help to lower the temperature of the body.

Try this, 10 person...5 with cotton lawer, 5 with hydrophobic garment...you ski for an our at a good speed. Stop. The one with cotton layer change there t-shirt and wait for an hour as in a belay. Do that for six ours, three times. Those with the new garment will be froze and the other will be o.k. So, we talk about six hours of exercise...climbing Huntington ravine for example.

I don't say any thing else than test it The result can change with outside temperature, body metabolism, wind, boot isolation, etc.

In my last post, I ask a question: is it going to cost more if you built a trad or a sport route? in term of liability. I am sure that it is the same. The gym was built in 1984, it is less than 28 years of life. Instead of making the sport more popular by a better understanding, you show that you can insult any body for few box. Instead of applying one economic principle, diversify your product, you try to concentrate the public in the only thing that you are good at (look at sport and bouldering...boulder was not popular before an now it is).

People understand what I am saying, as edmon said, they laught at your stupidity and don't say nothing about the way to gain a diversity of knowledge because you insult them.       

 

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: M_Sprague on December 05, 2014, 11:17:14 AM
Translated from LL speak:
"soaked material close ta tha skin....nice wet n' warm!

I never holla'd dis shit. Well shiiiit, it is yo' bullshit!!!

I do say dat you can stay dry by removin a wet layer that, up in other way, yo ass is goin dry it by evaporation. I aint talkin' bout chicken n' gravy biatch. what tha fuck cook up a garment fucked up it is tha speed at which tha evaporation is done. In cotton, tha evaporation is slow ; up in tha freshly smoked up garment, tha evaporation is fast.

If some one transpire (it is tha phat term fo' Gortex technology) a lot, they is goin ta froze up in freshly smoked up garment cuz evaporation need kilo caloriez of yo' body ta transform liquid tha fuck into gas. If you keep tha wata up in a kind of pouch, n' remove tha pouch all up in tha phat moment... yo big-ass booty is ghon remove tha wata by a other way than transpiration n' keep yo' calories ta keep you warm, not fo' evaporation.

In tha case of cross ghetto skier, tha juice produce by tha exercise is mo' than tha juice need fo' tha evaporation. I aint talkin' bout chicken n' gravy biatch. Right back up in yo muthafuckin ass. So, hydrophobic garment, which repulse tha wata from tha body, is ghon be betta cuz tha evaporation will help ta lower tha temperature of tha body.

Try this, 10 person...5 wit cotton lawer, 5 wit hydrophobic garment...you ski fo' a our at a phat speed. Y'all KNOW dat shit, muthafucka! Stop. Da one wit cotton layer chizzle there t-shirt n' wait fo' a minute as up in a funky-ass belay. Do dat fo' six ours, three times. Those wit tha freshly smoked up garment is ghon be froze n' tha other is ghon be o.k. Right back up in yo muthafuckin ass. So, we rap bout six minutez of exercise...climbin Huntington ravine fo' example.

I don't say any thang else than test it Da result can chizzle wit outside temperature, body metabolism, wind, boot isolation, etc.

In mah last post, I ask a question: is it goin ta cost mo' if you built a trad or a shiznit route, biatch? up in term of liability. I be shizzle dat it is tha same. Da toilet was built up in 1984, it is less than 28 muthafuckin yearz of game. Instead of makin tha shiznit mo' ghettofab by a funky-ass betta understanding, you show dat you can insult any body fo' few box. Instead of applyin one economic principle, diversify yo' product, you try ta concentrate tha hood up in tha only thang dat yo ass is phat at (peep shiznit n' bouldering...boulder was not ghettofab before a now it is).

Muthafuckas KNOW what tha fuck I be saying, as edmon holla'd, they laught at yo' stupiditizzle n' don't say not a god damn thang bout tha way ta bust a gangbangin' finger-lickin' diversitizzle of knowledge cuz you insult em.       
"
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DGoguen on December 05, 2014, 11:46:59 AM
Oooooh. Now that makes sense!
WORD. Why didn't he just say it like that.

Thanks, DJ gluein for representing.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 05, 2014, 11:49:03 AM
Awesome Mark, now you can be the official NE Climbs French BS translater! ;)
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: snowleopard on December 05, 2014, 03:49:51 PM
No word yet if Fruit of The Loom will be at Icefest for
testing to solve the great cotton controversy
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on December 05, 2014, 04:18:49 PM
17  here in Co and yes..I wore my all cotton drinkin sleeveless
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 05, 2014, 04:51:18 PM
Here is something I found today - http://sanfranciscobay.sierraclub.org/yodeler/html/2009/09/winter4.htm
Draw your own conclusions.
The indisputable problem I see with LL's approach is the need to change out off the soaked cotton T shirt at some point before sleeping.  Damn if I have to go bare upper body in sub 20F temps to get a dry cotton shirt on!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 05, 2014, 05:23:38 PM
The indisputable problem I see with LL's approach is the need to change out off the soaked cotton T shirt at some point before sleeping.  Damn if I have to go bare upper body in sub 20F temps to get a dry cotton shirt on!

In the article, they said: Also, if you - or the clothing against your skin - are wet, the conduction of heat away from your body will accelerate. Water conducts heat away from your body 25 times faster than air.

If you take the cotton away from your body, you are dry and in better condition. i will climb Mt washington this winter and i will wear a cotton t-shirt to the end of the trail in huntington. I will be dry, completely dry, to go to the high wind and colder area to pinacle gulley. Depending of the weather, maybe I won't wear a t-shirt to the bottom of the waterfall. but in general, I have some.

In the text, they said:

Moisture, whether from perspiration or from outside the body, cools us through two separate mechanisms. In evaporative cooling following sweating, the secretion and evaporation of moisture transfers heat to the air.

When you are resting, evaporative heat loss is less important,

This is a mistake. Evaporative loss of heat is by perspiration. When you stop, you are warm and sweathy. But your metabolism don't produce as much heat as before because you are at rest. so your heat loss is very high and you don't produce enough energy.

is it one of you who write the article?

 
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: steve weitzler on December 05, 2014, 05:59:01 PM
In my last post, I ask a question: is it going to cost more if you built a trad or a sport route? in term of liability. I am sure that it is the same. The gym was built in 1984, it is less than 28 years of life. Instead of making the sport more popular by a better understanding, you show that you can insult any body for few box. Instead of applying one economic principle, diversify your product, you try to concentrate the public in the only thing that you are good at (look at sport and bouldering...boulder was not popular before an now it is).

People understand what I am saying.



OK Luke: seing as you are responding to my post I will see if I can explain it to you in easy to understand English (of course I can't) but I will try. Liability insurance premiums are not calculated by the amount of sport routes or traditional routes in a gym because as the the insurance companies see it none of this matters. All that matters is the number of people using the gym (at least this is the way it was calculated when I owned the BRG. I am not sure this is the case now. As far as making the "sport more popular by better understanding." (I assume you are saying that we try to educate customers to the risks of climbing I would say you are correct. Any good climbing guide, teacher or gym should educate people to the risks of climbing and how to minimize those risks. As far as claiming we "insult any body for a few box,"…….well that contradicts your claim that "people understand what you are saying." Honestly I don't have a clue why you are saying. I rarely insult people but when I do I don't insult them for a box. I usually put things in boxes I don't need and store it for later. I can't believe I am getting in this debate. Off to the hang board in the basement for more pull-ups and to put my rock gear in a box until next spring when I can use it. I will also unpack the boxes with the ice gear in it because it is very cold out and the ice will be forming.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 05, 2014, 06:45:13 PM
LL, I believe you misunderstood this "When you are resting, evaporative heat loss is less important,". The point is there is less sweating hence less evaporative cooling when one is just resting or being idle with a dry shirt on, and not after one is idle or stopped after exertion and sweating, with a wet shirt.
If you do not sweat, cotton versus synthetics does not really matter, hence your bravado.  Pretty useless arguing with you given your thought process.

And if you do not cease arguing with SteveW about gym liability then you are more irrational than I thought.   Oh, "a few box" = a few bucks.  I would not say $18/$20 day pass is a "few box".
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: steve weitzler on December 05, 2014, 06:55:25 PM
Oh….it'a a few bucks (dollars) not a few box. To think…I am trying to explain something in plain English. What was I thinking. ???
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: Nick Grant on December 05, 2014, 08:52:58 PM
I'm new to this site so I didn't know that Mark was a black guy.  He speaks "Lukeebonics."
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: NEAlpineStart on December 05, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
Translated from LL speak:
"soaked material close ta tha skin....nice wet n' warm!

I never holla'd dis shit. Well shiiiit, it is yo' bullshit!!!

I do say dat you can stay dry by removin a wet layer that, up in other way, yo ass is goin dry it by evaporation. I aint talkin' bout chicken n' gravy biatch. what tha fuck cook up a garment fucked up it is tha speed at which tha evaporation is done. In cotton, tha evaporation is slow ; up in tha freshly smoked up garment, tha evaporation is fast.

EDITED TO NOT TAKE UP TOO MUCH ROOM

Muthafuckas KNOW what tha fuck I be saying, as edmon holla'd, they laught at yo' stupiditizzle n' don't say not a god damn thang bout tha way ta bust a gangbangin' finger-lickin' diversitizzle of knowledge cuz you insult em.       
"

Best post of 2014?
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 06, 2014, 09:55:48 AM
LL, I believe you misunderstood this "When you are resting, evaporative heat loss is less important,". The point is there is less sweating hence less evaporative cooling when one is just resting or being idle with a dry shirt on, and not after one is idle or stopped after exertion and sweating, with a wet shirt.

We can discuss, with mutual respect.

Imagine a guy...a women... naked? Take the body temperature of her leg muscle. Ask her to hike up a hill with a 40 pounds pack sac. for an hour. Take the body temperature of her leg muscle. the difference between rest and exercise muscle can be as hight as 8 degree F. After that, take her leg temperature at each 10 minutes. It won't drop by eight degree in a minutes. After twenty minutes, she can be at the same temperature as when she begin.

There is a delay between the formation of heat in the muscle and his evacuation by sweating.

When you wear clothes, The process is a little bit different because you have heat and water. You are sweating. For the heat, you will built a temperature gradation from your body to the last layer of clothes. Your layer is an isolation, so you will keep the built up of heat close to your body. For sweathing, the water will still be present to cool off your body and you will use a lot of energy to evaporate it.

The two question are: Are you going to produce more water from sweating than the new garment can eliminate? and The transfert of heat is it going to be accelerate by the quantity of water accumulating in the layer.

We all climb shoe string with a pack sac and arrived at the bottom of the ice with the back completely wet. So, the accumulation of water is more than it's evaporation. They said that, by conduction of heat, the loss is around 20 to 25 % higher when you are wety than when you are dry.

I think that it is the major point between sport and trad. In trad, we focus in safety, we want to have a deep understanding of what happens in our body and find solutions for us to be ready to face the unpredictable. In sport, you want to climb and like to have ready to serve conservative article to make your mind. If I met a beginner at the bottom of mt washington...I will told him to wear hydrophobic layer because they dry fast. In a forum, for those interested to know deeply what they are doing when they risk there life on Mt Washington, I will told them that cotton can be a solution, with dangerous limits.

If you are a trad...you will go in avalanche situation, extremely cold weather and always keep in mind to test your knowledge, but to keep the door open to get out fast. I saw many sport climber who follow all the good advice, without deep understanding, going straight thrue and exception to the general rules. For them, avalanche awarnes is a must. It can't be apply to serious trad climber.       
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: JBro on December 06, 2014, 12:08:04 PM
LL, I believe you misunderstood this "When you are resting, evaporative heat loss is less important,". The point is there is less sweating hence less evaporative cooling when one is just resting or being idle with a dry shirt on, and not after one is idle or stopped after exertion and sweating, with a wet shirt.

We can discuss, with mutual respect.

Imagine a guy...a women... naked? Take the body temperature of her leg muscle. Ask her to hike up a hill with a 40 pounds pack sac. for an hour. Take the body temperature of her leg muscle. the difference between rest and exercise muscle can be as hight as 8 degree F. After that, take her leg temperature at each 10 minutes. It won't drop by eight degree in a minutes. After twenty minutes, she can be at the same temperature as when she begin.

   


(http://www.dudelol.com/DO-NOT-HOTLINK-IMAGES/Its-getting-hot-in-here.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Nelly_-_Hot_in_Herre_CD_cover.jpg)
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 06, 2014, 12:56:59 PM
LL, I am not going down that road with you. 
<brag on>
I have an advanced degree in Mechanical Engr with specialization in heat transfer and thermodynamics yet I am not going to argue because you quote "facts" a bit from here and a bit from there and the reasoning you use to arrive at a conclusion that you like is disjointed.  You do not truly understand the applicable heat transfer mechanism and let's just leave it at that for sanity sake.
</brag on>
So I suspect you regard yourself as a serious trad climber now.  I cannot argue with you since just about anyone here is more "trad" than I am now. 
But I bet there are others who will say your perception of self may not hold up under scrutiny.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 07, 2014, 09:53:52 AM
LL, I am not going down that road with you. 
<brag on>
I have an advanced degree in Mechanical Engr with specialization in heat transfer and thermodynamics yet I am not going to argue because you quote "facts" a bit from here and a bit from there and the reasoning you use to arrive at a conclusion that you like is disjointed. 

The worse of engineer is they think that they can explain every think with theory. A guy who loose his time climbing, instead of being at school, can be twenty time safer than you...and can't explain that. It is easy for you to show your diploma and insult other people.

I have a master degree in biology, and specialize in nutrition. I study the transfert of energy from the food entering your mouth to his elimination in carbon dioxyde, urea and shit. I know about blood circulation and how the body transport energy in different way. I can explain aerobic and anaerobic process, I can explain a build up of acide lactic and it's reaction to the pulmonary ventilation, the biochemical process and mitochondrial action of how the muscle protect itself when you used it. Of course, it is not a school presentation of what really happen. I wrote vulgarisation to help people to test what they are doing and write there own conclusion. I did Mt Washington yesterday and the only piece of clothes that was not wet at the end, it was the t-shirt that I change. All my other clothes was sucking wet and it is the one you suggest.

There is a clear correlation between the accident at the gunks (climb it on one pitch and don't protect the first 20 feet because if it is under your capacity); the accident in rumney ( it was under our ability and we do the route often) and your comment there is one solution (don't wear cotton)You bring death and injury into climbing.       
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: kenreville on December 07, 2014, 10:35:06 AM
Yuh hear that? Death and injury. That's what you bring Mr. Sneoh.
Title: Re: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DGoguen on December 07, 2014, 10:51:30 AM
I have a master degree in biology, and specialize in nutrition. I study the transfert of energy from the food entering your mouth to his elimination in carbon dioxyde, urea and shit.
Hey, Congratulations on the promotion.
Last time we talked you were doing lawn care.
Sweet!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: JBro on December 07, 2014, 11:25:46 AM
One time he told us he was an expert in snow crystal formation. But I'm guessing it was a language issue and he really meant crystal meth.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 07, 2014, 11:42:28 AM
There is a clear correlation between the accident at the gunks (climb it on one pitch and don't protect the first 20 feet because if it is under your capacity); the accident in rumney ( it was under our ability and we do the route often) and your comment there is one solution (don't wear cotton)You bring death and injury into climbing.       
Congrats Champ, you have just wiped out any credibility you have left -
1.  Wet cotton T-shirt in winter does not really have anything to do with the two aforementioned accidents, does it?
2.  I bring death and injury to climbing?  What?  I am Satan?  Wild, OTT accusations is not becoming of you!

This has been too easy. 
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on December 07, 2014, 11:57:56 AM
SNEOH..you do bring death..get out here and we will die together !!!! Bring everybody..

LL you constantly are quoting books, yet you are master of trad ????  BULLSHIT

i don't have a masters or apparently your diverse wisdom,,but I bet like a lot of others on this site, know a lot more than you about climbing
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 07, 2014, 03:15:33 PM
YOU ARE ON, John.  Peni or Death!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 07, 2014, 04:27:25 PM

Congrats Champ, you have just wiped out any credibility you have left -
1.  Wet cotton T-shirt in winter does not really have anything to do with the two aforementioned accidents, does it?
2.  I bring death and injury to climbing?  What?  I am Satan?  Wild, OTT accusations is not becoming of you!

does not really have anything with the two afoorementioned accident...for you.

If you said that cotton is not good in most situation, but it can save your life some times... people will try to understand why it can save your life and will study all the theory on how clothes isolation work, take better decision, and have more safe and enjoyable climb.
Other way, they will follow a set of rules without knowing what they do and when they are in danger. After, you will say that it is bad luck or fast recovery,, but it is some thing that it can be avoid with a better knowledge and decision making

If you had said that sport climbing is different than trad, people will try to understand why it is different and will see the differences on why protection, and all the skill associate with how to protect ourselves, can save the life of the two climber.
Other way, they will say that there is no difference between trad and sport and people will climb as if they are in a gym. She climbed 5.11 it is a 5.6, so she can solo it. Sport climber follow a set of rules that give him more strength to do hard  without knowing all the theorie and when they can have an accident. It is not there fault.

Of course, we talk about the same behavior in the three case, and one most care about other to analyze behavior. A negative leader bring the population to adopt one way of thinking that is good in term of liability or other for the leader without thinking that people can be injure or died whit that behavior.

What is important is that in talking about cotton, without the presence of negative leader, people will increase there knowledge , good knowledge. I never saw someone  injure while I was climbing and a course of safety means nothing more than a paper who prove that the person can be responsible. For me, it is bad knowledge because the person take the course because they are frightened and want to say that they are safe A course on how your body eliminate the heat and how sweating and heat affect the choice of your clothes, even in summer, are far more important because that knowledge lower the chance to be injure.

For the second question, people with sport mentality still think that if they can push themselves in a gym, they can do the same in trad route. They just have to repeat it a bunch of time and they won't need protection. they have to be bold. A long sling in the first pitch, in the case of the gunks, will had save her life (could be good to remove the description saying to solo the first trad pitch) in the case of rumney, it is hard to say, but the stick clip was there...so why taking a risk.

In both case they follow the bad "advice" of some one who must know....

N.B. I gave way to test t-shirt/no cotton, gave some information that can be discuss and confirm that it work for me. 
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 07, 2014, 07:07:43 PM
I am incapable of responding to incoherency.  Sorry.

As for Hil's accident, yes, it was at a sport climbing area.  In retrospect, not stick clipping given the slick conditions was an oversight.  There is a lesson to be learned here.

As for The Gunk's accident, frankly there is not a lot of solid information to judge the competency of the climber by.  But that does not prevent LL alone to claim the victim (now DEAD) did not bring the required "trad" mentality to the climb.  Is that the truth?  Who knows?  Certainly not anyone babbling on this Forum.  I dare say there is a chance that she was a better and more serious trad climber than you, Champ.  At the same time, there is the same chance that the opposite is true.  The real POINT is do not jump to any conclusion - "she has sport ethics" - when you have SO FEW facts to go by.
And you consider yourself scientifically minded?   Seriously?

Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 08, 2014, 07:16:08 AM
I am incapable of responding to incoherency.  Sorry.

I can write wrong, my skill in english is not the same every day. here the text better wrote:


Congrats Champ, you have just wiped out any credibility you have left -
1.  Wet cotton T-shirt in winter does not really have anything to do with the two aforementioned accidents, does it?
2.  I bring death and injury to climbing?  What?  I am Satan?  Wild, OTT accusations is not becoming of you!

does not really have anything with the two afoorementioned accident...for you.

If you said that cotton is not good in most situation, but it can save your life some times... people will try to understand why it can save your life and will study all the theory on how clothes isolation work, take better decision, and have more safe and enjoyable climb.
Other way, they will follow a set of rules without knowing what they do and when they are in danger. After, you will say that it is bad luck or fast recovery,, but it is some thing that it can be avoid with a better knowledge and decision making

If you had said that sport climbing is different than trad, people will try to understand why it is different and will see the differences on why protection, and all the skill associate with how to protect ourselves, can save the life of the two climber.
Other way, they will say that there is no difference between trad and sport and people will climb as if they are in a gym. She climbed 5.11 it is a 5.6, so she can solo it. Sport climber follow a set of rules that give him more strength to do hard  without knowing all the theorie and when they can have an accident. It is not there fault.

Of course, we talk about the same behavior in the three case, and one most care about other to analyze behavior. A negative leader bring the population to adopt one way of thinking that is good in term of liability or other for the leader without thinking that people can be injure or died whit that behavior.

What is important is that in talking about cotton, without the presence of negative leader, people will increase there knowledge , good knowledge. I never saw someone  injure while I was climbing and a course of safety means nothing more than a paper who prove that the person can be responsible. For me, it is bad knowledge because the person take the course because they are frightened and want to say that they are safe A course on how your body eliminate the heat and how sweating and heat affect the choice of your clothes, even in summer, are far more important because that knowledge lower the chance to be injure.

For the second question, people with sport mentality still think that if they can push themselves in a gym, they can do the same in trad route. They just have to repeat it a bunch of time and they won't need protection. they have to be bold. A long sling in the first pitch, in the case of the gunks, will had save her life (could be good to remove the description saying to solo the first trad pitch) in the case of rumney, it is hard to say, but the stick clip was there...so why taking a risk.

In both case they follow the bad "advice" of some one who must know....

N.B. I gave way to test t-shirt/no cotton, gave some information that can be discuss and confirm that it work for me. 
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2014, 08:37:57 AM
A long sling in the first pitch, in the case of the gunks, will had save her life
Too darn long to response point by point so I am only going to raise one issue.
What is this long sling that you are referring to?  Where should the piece of pro for it go into?  Please elaborate.
Have you ever been on Yellow Wall, the climb?  Do you even know how to sufficiently protect the first 25 feet?
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: ed_esmond on December 08, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
soon,

"satan??" 

i knew they called you the "plastic prince,"  but now you're the "prince of darkness."  congratulations on the promotion!!

just an observation: i like to fly fish and there are 4 basic fisherman/fish interactions:

1) the ones you hook and land ( and may end up in the frying pan…)
2) the ones you hook and "get away."
3) the ones you can't even get a rise out of.
    and then the most frustrating:
4) the ones you don't even know are there….

i think you're in the first group…

ed "who, if he had a beach house in the baja, would be there now…." e



Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2014, 09:44:54 AM
Yes, Ed, I am infinitely more evil and stupid than I appear. :)
Wish I were in Baja as well.  Ha-ha.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: kenreville on December 08, 2014, 09:51:22 AM
ed "who, if he had a beach house in the baja, would be there now…." e

Can't argue with that.

Ken "who has a beach house in the Baja and still isn't there..." r
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 08, 2014, 12:52:32 PM
What is this long sling that you are referring to?  Where should the piece of pro for it go into?  Please elaborate.
Have you ever been on Yellow Wall, the climb?  Do you even know how to sufficiently protect the first 25 feet?

Here is the first pitch on mountain project: "P1: Start up a right-facing corner, step around the corner to the left, and face climb up to a stance at a pin and horizontal. Belay here, or, if you were able to run it out to this point without gear, continue on. 60', traditionally rated 5.8 but I think it's more like 5.6."

The bolt is from me. if you are not able to run it out to the belay means that there is protection. I have enought knowledge to use protect myself. In Todd Swain it is rating 5.11 PG. But you are right: How can we avoid rope drag in the first pitch with quickdraws from sport climbing???
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2014, 01:15:14 PM
Answer the question, Champ.  Have you ever been on YW to substantiate any claim you put forth?  Nothing on mp.com comes with a 100% guarantee of being accurate.
Where should this magical long sling and gear for it be placed?  Was it above or below where she fell from?  Do you even have the faintest clue?

Another thing, slings are needed for rope management higher up on the route so I am sure the victim had both slings and draws, maybe even all slings. 
Again, pure speculation from you.  Rope drag very very likely has nothing to do with why she cratered.

Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 08, 2014, 01:29:55 PM
What is this long sling that you are referring to?  Where should the piece of pro for it go into?  Please elaborate.
Have you ever been on Yellow Wall, the climb?  Do you even know how to sufficiently protect the first 25 feet?

Here is the first pitch on mountain project: "P1: Start up a right-facing corner, step around the corner to the left, and face climb up to a stance at a pin and horizontal. Belay here, or, if you were able to run it out to this point without gear, continue on. 60', traditionally rated 5.8 but I think it's more like 5.6."

The bolt is from me. if you are not able to run it out to the belay means that there is protection. I have enought knowledge to use protect myself. In Todd Swain it is rating 5.11 PG. But you are right: How can we avoid rope drag in the first pitch with quickdraws from sport climbing???


You have not lead the route or even been on it so you have NO KNOWLEDGE other than the fucking guide!! Go lead the route and if you don't back off pitch 1 crying like a baby come back here and report. The gear on pitch 2 is great but you better be SOLID on pitch 1 because the gear SUCKS! I and everyone else who has lead the route are generally way more nervous on pitch 1 for a reason. It is scary and you CAN NOT fall!

God you are stupid!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 08, 2014, 05:20:32 PM
Answer the question, Champ.  Have you ever been on YW to substantiate any claim you put forth?  Nothing on mp.com comes with a 100% guarantee of being accurate.
Where should this magical long sling and gear for it be placed?  Was it above or below where she fell from?  Do you even have the faintest clue?

PG is: 15 feet fall with probably no injury.

Description: "she was on the first pitch of the Yellow Wall. She had followed the route last week without any issue and wanted to lead it this week. She was about 20 feet up and did not have any gear in yet when her foot slipped"

Do I need to climb the route as a stupid blind mind to prove that a protection on the route whit no rope drag can be a solution for the other who will climb the route? Or if they can place a long sling, maybe they are better to do the route in two pitches!!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2014, 05:27:57 PM
HOPELESS. Blind as a bat and stubborn as a mule.  Great.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: strandman on December 08, 2014, 05:31:34 PM
I am guilty of adding stuff to MP   ONLY routes i have done..if not , then shut up

Al--- edit me, i don't care   

LL   SUCK MY DICK   YOU KNOW SHIT AND ARE SHIT
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: pappy on December 08, 2014, 05:33:31 PM
HOPELESS. Blind as a bat and stubborn as a mule.  Great.


The proper animal metaphor is 'don't wrestle with a pig in the mud. You can't win and after awhile you realize the pig enjoys it.'
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: sneoh on December 08, 2014, 05:36:14 PM
The proper animal metaphor is 'don't wrestle with a pig in the mud. You can't win and after awhile you realize the pig enjoys it.'
Perfection.  Thanks, Pappy.

Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: DaveR on December 08, 2014, 05:50:19 PM
HOPELESS. Blind as a bat and stubborn as a mule.  Great.


The proper animal metaphor is 'don't wrestle with a pig in the mud. You can't win and after awhile you realize the pig enjoys it.'

But a pig is pretty smart pappy!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: JBro on December 08, 2014, 06:20:59 PM
HOPELESS. Blind as a bat and stubborn as a mule.  Great.


The proper animal metaphor is 'don't wrestle with a pig in the mud. You can't win and after awhile you realize the pig enjoys it.'


If you're gonna wrastle a pig, I recommend doing it in a tub full of Ramen Noodles.
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: Nick Grant on December 08, 2014, 06:41:31 PM
That "in ramen noodles" line is just flat-out hilarious!  I howled with laughter when I read it.  Well done, Brad Marchand!
Title: Re: trad climbing in a gym
Post by: JBro on December 09, 2014, 12:42:53 PM
That "in ramen noodles" line is just flat-out hilarious!  I howled with laughter when I read it.  Well done, Brad Marchand!


I personally would have squealed with laughter.   :)