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91
Rock Climbing: Trad / Re: Hidden gems, discussion
« Last post by ralbert20 on August 14, 2016, 11:40:27 AM »
I agree, those are all great! (Done them all this year)
92
Rock Climbing: Trad / Re: Hidden gems, discussion
« Last post by NEAlpineStart on August 14, 2016, 10:11:07 AM »
Some hidden in plain view favorites:

Raise the Roof/Liger

Cold Day in Hell - Tranquility - Inferno

Toe Crack into Thin Air with 5.8 finish
93
Rock Climbing: Trad / Hidden gems, discussion
« Last post by ralbert20 on August 14, 2016, 10:03:49 AM »
I have done lots and lots of routes in North Conway. What are some suggestions on classic hidden gems, link ups, etc? For example, I had never thought of doing the book into recom-beast...
94
Climbing NOT (Bitch & moan, Politics) / Re: $3-$5 for Forest passes
« Last post by kenreville on August 12, 2016, 10:25:30 PM »
"A tax by any other name is still a tax and I will not pay a tax that has not been voted on by my elected representatives."

Yhup.
95
Climbing NOT (Bitch & moan, Politics) / Re: $3-$5 for Forest passes
« Last post by DaveR on August 12, 2016, 09:02:51 PM »
So here is a serious question: Does the Department of the Interior need congress, if they want to raise the campsite fees in Yosemite?

Another actual serious question: Are all those hundreds of cars that are parked along rt 3 at the Lafayette trail head in Franconia notch every weekend obliged to have a pass? The fee lots are full, the overflow ends up parking on the side of the road.... What's their legal situation?

As to the Yosemite question, the campsite fee is a user fee. If they can show an increase is needed to maintain the campground they can do it, although I think Congress built in comment periods, etc. Not that they pay much attention to that sort of thing anymore.

Don't see how they can collect the fee from someone parked by the highway. They may have just parked the car there and aren't even in the forest. Furthermore, if you are collecting money just from those who came to the forest by vehicle rather than collecting from everyone who uses the resource then it is a tax, not a user fee. If you are doing so in order to raise general revenue for your budget rather than targeted at the specific resource being used then it is a tax, not a user fee. It should be obvious why it would be a horrible and thoroughly un-Constitutional idea for a government agency to be able to just conjure up a new 'fee' any time they wanted to raise money for their budget, just a little bit less horrible than a government employee being able to seize the cash you're carrying simply because they think you have more than you 'should' have for legal purposes, and then using the proceeds to make their budget. Oh wait, they do that.

'I'm proud to be an American,
Where at least I think I'm free....' cough, cough

Pappy,
If you go to the WMNF web site it is called a "recreation fee" and does not have one fucking thing to do with parking. It is pay to play on land that belongs to me. The way it is worded anyone who uses an area that a recreation fee has been approved for must pay the fee. They just go after drivers because they have a way to get you if you don't pay. "Most White Mountain National Forest lands are open and free of charge for your use and enjoyment.  Certain developed sites require payment of a recreation fee authorized via the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act."

I just renewed my drivers license so all those warning I have got at Rumney don't mean shit! We have your plate number and if you don't pay by the end of the day...blah, blah, blah. I suspect they are not real strict with enforcement because way back when this fee first started a judge in the US District court in Concord declared it unconstitutional and vowed that he would throw out any tickets that he had the chance to. I don't even know if he is still on the bench. There must be a lawyer on this board that would know how to find his decision.

FEE, BULLSHIT!! A tax by any other name is still a tax and I will not pay a tax that has not been voted on by my elected representatives.

Oh and by the way Pappy, forget the Constitution! It's old and outdated like you and me. :P

http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/whitemountain/passes-permits/recreation
96
Climbing NOT (Bitch & moan, Politics) / Re: $3-$5 for Forest passes
« Last post by rbirk on August 12, 2016, 05:12:19 PM »
If you read the document originally linked there are two paragraphs of interest to the discussion:

"Ninety five percent of the revenue collected at recreation fee sites remains on the Forest to operate, maintain and improve the facilities and recreation programs.  Fees are used to maintain day-use sites including trash pickup, septic pumping, painting, and cleaning, and to address the backlog of deferred maintenance, conduct patrols and maintain highly used trails, shelters, and campsites, and to assist visitors with information and education services such as Leave No Trace and hikeSafe."

and

"In 2004, Congress passed the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act which allows the Forest Service to retain funds collected at certain recreation sites and use these funds locally to operate and maintain and improve these sites. Before the Forest Service received the authority to retain funds locally, all fees collected by the Forest Service went to the national treasury."

97
Climbing NOT (Bitch & moan, Politics) / Re: $3-$5 for Forest passes
« Last post by frik on August 12, 2016, 04:58:38 PM »
Good catch slink - i should have known that. Dave regardless of what the ranger called it or said about it, obviously not all visitors to the forest with a car have to pay. The Scookumchuck lot, among others is still free, although maybe it won't be by the end of the week.
Quote
all visitors to the forest with a vehicle must pay.

 but it's not for parking.... fking Orwell!

98
Climbing NOT (Bitch & moan, Politics) / Re: $3-$5 for Forest passes
« Last post by pappy on August 12, 2016, 03:11:54 PM »
So here is a serious question: Does the Department of the Interior need congress, if they want to raise the campsite fees in Yosemite?

Another actual serious question: Are all those hundreds of cars that are parked along rt 3 at the Lafayette trail head in Franconia notch every weekend obliged to have a pass? The fee lots are full, the overflow ends up parking on the side of the road.... What's their legal situation?

As to the Yosemite question, the campsite fee is a user fee. If they can show an increase is needed to maintain the campground they can do it, although I think Congress built in comment periods, etc. Not that they pay much attention to that sort of thing anymore.

Don't see how they can collect the fee from someone parked by the highway. They may have just parked the car there and aren't even in the forest. Furthermore, if you are collecting money just from those who came to the forest by vehicle rather than collecting from everyone who uses the resource then it is a tax, not a user fee. If you are doing so in order to raise general revenue for your budget rather than targeted at the specific resource being used then it is a tax, not a user fee. It should be obvious why it would be a horrible and thoroughly un-Constitutional idea for a government agency to be able to just conjure up a new 'fee' any time they wanted to raise money for their budget, just a little bit less horrible than a government employee being able to seize the cash you're carrying simply because they think you have more than you 'should' have for legal purposes, and then using the proceeds to make their budget. Oh wait, they do that.

'I'm proud to be an American,
Where at least I think I'm free....' cough, cough
99
Climbing NOT (Bitch & moan, Politics) / Re: $3-$5 for Forest passes
« Last post by slink on August 12, 2016, 01:50:27 PM »
Do you pay at the Lafayette trail head?  I thought that was a NH state park? You really shouldn't have to pay a federal fee for state lands. Just saying.  I get a free pass every year so I have no real beef in this fight. I also got one of those official tickets and payed the fine it says that you can have a war rent placed for non payment. Official enough for me.
100
Climbing NOT (Bitch & moan, Politics) / Re: $3-$5 for Forest passes
« Last post by DaveR on August 12, 2016, 01:40:54 PM »
So here is a serious question: Does the Department of the Interior need congress, if they want to raise the campsite fees in Yosemite?

Another actual serious question: Are all those hundreds of cars that are parked along rt 3 at the Lafayette trail head in Franconia notch every weekend obliged to have a pass? The fee lots are full, the overflow ends up parking on the side of the road.... What's their legal situation?

Not sure about the first question.

I asked that question of a ranger once and was told they were also responsible for the "USE FEE" he never called it a parking fee and made it quite clear it was a fee for the use of the forest that "all visitors to the forest with a vehicle must pay."
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