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General => New Ice Routes => Topic started by: Admin Al on January 30, 2006, 11:03:40 AM

Title: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on January 30, 2006, 11:03:40 AM
On January 29th, 2006 Jim Ewing did the FA of new mixed route in the Cathedral Cave. The route is named "Work Of The Devil" and follows the general line of an existing rock climb, "The Devil Made Me Dog It". It was rated M7+/Man-2 by Jim and Eric McCallister who assisted in the FA and has attempted the route himself. The M7+ is on the 'New England Mixed' scale, aka. the Freddie Wilkinson scale and the Man scale is one suggested by Doug Madara. The NEM scale is capped at M7+ while the Man scale is open ended.

Jim Ewing is the rope designer for Sterling Rope, located in Scarborough, Maine.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on January 30, 2006, 11:11:43 AM
Just to clarify, "Work of the Devil" climbs "Devil Made Me Dog It" to the sloping ledge, then climbs new terrain directly above before connecting to the old aid line, which it follows out the lip of the 35' roof.

Also, that is NEM7+, not to be confused by "traditional" M7+. The NEM scale gets capped at 7+ because, let's face it, there is nothing harder that M7 in New England, right??? :-)


Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 07, 2006, 03:18:20 PM
Pls explain the MAN rating?
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Laprade on February 07, 2006, 04:19:34 PM
Please explain how this is a new ice route, and how torquing on an established rock route with significant mechanical advantage is acceptable.  I know it is only "the cave" but jesus, this just doesn't seem right.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 07, 2006, 05:13:56 PM
Because the harder you send the more you can bend the ruze ;D that which is totaly discracefull for the 5.10 climber is accepted procedure for the 5.14 climber. the M rateing seems to take this principle to even lower levels of degeneracy ???
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: wyoclimber on February 07, 2006, 07:27:11 PM
I dont know, I have seen the climb when it was getting worked and if you ask me it is a hell of a mixed route.  I give credit to anyone that can do it and pull through that stuff.  I dont know that bashing a route and knit picking whether it is a true "new" route or first ascent is worth the energy put into it really.  I grew up on the east coast and moved out west a couple years ago and in areas out here it is hard to pick a "new" line.  Are lines that start on an existing route and diverge 3 bolts from the start and have 4 new bolts to a new anchor a "New Route"??  Who knows and really who cares.  The Devil is a route that is plum line up the center and asthetically pleasing.  It gives people something to work on now in a different season.  If you want to be technical, heck, every time an existing ice route gets climbed it is a new route since it is never the same, at the minimum, each year it is different, forms different, more/less ice... and in NE that can be 3-4 times a season.

All in All you have to give the guy credit, he did something no one else has yet and likely not many people will be able to, that with worth an applause in my book.
KM
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 07, 2006, 10:55:41 PM
Never said it wasen't hard. It just looks from the pictuer an afull lot like a rock climb. If it dosent have any ice on it and it is a summer rock climb then hooking up it with tools is going to scratch the heck out of the rock and  not prove anything other than a summer rock climb can be climbed with ice tools? Heck i can climb the damn thing with aiders, hooks, pins, my trusty Chiounard hammer and a few other old fasioned toys but that would just make me a gumby trashing the rock by not climbing clean.  If you crank hard it's ok though ;D
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 08, 2006, 08:16:02 AM
I know what you mean...

I was at Cathedral last season, and on multiple days I saw climbers ascending a left facing corner/crack in between the Cave and the North End. When I asked, they said it was called Remission, or something like that. I could not believe what I was seeing, and that it was OK for a 5.8 climber to do this, but would be certainly frowned upon if it it is was a 5.4 climber. Even more surprising, I understand climbers have been scratching their way up this corner since 1976, and that an ascent of this 'rock climb' is even coveted by ice climbers... And they do it just to reach the ice on the face above. I've never heard of such a thing? Have you?

Go figure... :-)
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 08, 2006, 09:01:40 AM
Funy thing is that ecery pictuer of remission that i have ever seen shows a significant ammout of ice. Fron the photo, your climb looks as though it has no ice? Granted i am talking out my butt here as I have not seen your climb in the winter. But heck this is the internet ;D
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: dogboy on February 08, 2006, 09:08:45 AM
Hey Eric-
I was the one who was climbing Machine with my partner last weekend...guess I spoke too soon about there being no controversy regarding the Cave.  Oh well...although I challenge anyone to distinguish between the pick and crampon scratches and the drilled pockets, chipped and glued holds, and pin scars up on that roof...

I also think we should all stop using passive pro in the summer, since nuts, tricams, etc, clearly scar the rock and are running climbing for me.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 08, 2006, 09:19:07 AM
Funy thing is that ecery pictuer of remission that i have ever seen shows a significant ammout of ice.

I know, in this photo of Remission there is a lot of ice on the right-hand side of the crack :-)

http://www.neclimbs.com/PhotoPost/data/501/20050120.jpg
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Jim_Ewing on February 08, 2006, 09:33:47 AM
Did any of you see the Super Bowl on Sunday?  I didn,t but I sure heard about it on Monday.  Everyone was talking about how they would have done things differently.

On Cathedral (for starters):
Diedre
Black Crack
Three Birches
Dresden
Diagonal
Standard Route
Thin Air
Remission
Repentance
And many routes on the upper left wall of Cathedral that are tr,d in very thin conditions on a regular basis, so thin in fact that picks and crampons actually touch rock!  Nutcracker, Double Vee, and Chicken Delight to name a few.  The list could easily go on and not a single one of them was an ice or mixed route before it was a rock route.

Let,s face it, we,re talking about an aid route that has been retro-bolted (from a ladder in fact), chipped, scraped, hammered, and basically carved out of kitty litter.  It has little if anything in common with most of the classics listed above.  I,ve also climbed ‘The Devil Made Me Dog It, as a ‘rock, sport route and broken holds off with my fingers unintentionally.  I thought hard about the ethical issue and the potential for controversy.  I talked with several people, both local and not, about this route.  Not a single one had any objection, and in fact several encouraged me and now others have begun trying the route themselves.

As for the existence of ice on the route, well, there was none the day I completed the roof.  However, I went above the roof to the point where there had been ice two weeks prior.  Also, there often is ice flowing out of the cracks in several places throughout the entire route.  I intend to return as soon as there is sufficient ice (which I hope happens in my lifetime) and connect the route to Cathedral Direct for the full ascent.

And the grade?  Well, I truly and honestly don,t know which is why we have decided to have a bit of fun and use the two new grading systems outlined by the long time local hardmen of the area.

Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: wyoclimber on February 08, 2006, 03:22:52 PM
Perhaps it is because I am becoming more use to the practices of out west here but it makes me chuckle to hear so much "controversy" over this route.  I guess the idea of mixed and harder mixed is that it is a lot of rock with little ice.  The last time I was at the Ouray Ice fest, the men,s (and women,s I think) final mixed route, which was a hard one everyone was trying while it lasted, was up 6-7 bolts, all rock, traverse out the bridge span to 8' of ice that was created hanging off chains from the bridge.  If that is what is what the pros call a good hard mixed route...

I climbed a route (and I forget the name) in Hyalite a couple winters ago, classic M4 easier line with little approach that was 4 bolts to about 7 feet of vert pillar and then walk up the drainage 10 feet to slings.  Ask anyone around here and it is a nice easier route if noting else for people to warm up on or give their first mixed try.  Sure it was mostly rock but...

Than again I think I recall talking to some people who climbed with that strange freakishly odd pair that call themselves ice/rock/mixed climbers that climbed the Black Canyon in CO with ice tools to free the aid section.  So I guess we could all just say he "free aided" the climb, aided it with his hooks and hammer (that newer version of Chiounard called Black Diamond I think) and free aided it since he didn,t hang from daisy's or aiders, but holding onto the little hook, the freakishly strong fingers that must take!!!  Then again lets not create another new form of climbing that would be silly.

I wonder what those Scots would say since many of their climbs of Nevis are "ice" but yet 80% rock, or ice but the type that forms on your beard when it is cold with snot running down it and Styrofoam ::).

I wonder if we should stop climbing the high peaks in the winter because man, those crampon scratches on the rock to the tops distracts from my connection to the ancient granite of millenniums past.  Ok now I am just rambling.
.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 08, 2006, 04:20:36 PM
Certainly Work of the Devil is quite an accomplishment!  I assume it goes out to the ice that hangs off of Cathedral Direct at the anchor (over the lip).  This sort of climbing is being done every where- geesh look at the stuff that is being profiled in the popular climbing mags.....

As long as the climbing stays on the $hit rock and not widen any of the piton scars on the good cracks (oh yeah, those lockers we all enjoy were made by pitons....oops).  Still, I would err on good judgement and preservation of the "good" climbs. 

Keep up the hard work.

BTW----what is the Man rating?

Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 08, 2006, 07:28:39 PM
I have no problem with this rt. I am just trying to cause some discussion on the whole concept of climbing completly dry rock with ice tools. My point about how hardness writes it own rules seems pretty well founded as several people pointed out that this is how the hard guys and gals do it. My opinion is that being hard does not nessicarly make you right.  About 5 or six years ago one of your local guides suited up and dry Tool  top roped one of the cleanest and most classic  5.10 face climbs in the state of VT. Monkey Direct at Deer Leap. This Climb has NEVER had ANy ice on it and it certainly did NOT have ice on it in october comfortable rock climbing temps. This kid was pretty strong and precise so the climb was not dammaged. There is absolutly no doubt in my mind though that the climb would have been trashed if his posse of hero worshipers had attempted to do laps on the same climb. There was enough grumbiling from the other rock climbers there that that did not happen. My point is where do you draw the line??
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 08, 2006, 10:34:48 PM
I'll take a stab at the Man-scale, though my interpretation may be wrong... it's based on a few emails thrown back and forth between its originator, and 30 seconds discussion over beer and flatbread (staples of a climbers' diet)... Per my understanding, Man-grades are like Gill's B-scale--it consists of 3 levels. It's a sliding scale, so things change over time. It references mixed climbing specifically. So, Man-1 is something that has is hard, but been done by many climbers. An example might be The Lowe Down and Texaco. Hard, but lot's of people have sent. Man-2 is harder and seen just one or two ascents. After repeated ascents it would be downgraded to Man-1, and anything Man-1 may go down to Man-0. Tool of the Devil falls into this catagory. To the best of my knowledge Jim is the only one who's sent, though several strong climbers have tried. Man-3 is out there... super hard, never been done.

As per the rest of this discussion on drytooling rock routes and no ice on Work of the Devil, it seems to lack one key aspect -- that being 'thoughtful discussion' about THIS route. I think all of us can agree that drytooling a 'classic' established route is a no-no. And yes, there is ice on the WOTD (ok, just not much the day the rock section was sent).

So, to those points I say, Cathedral Direct is an established 'ice' climb (check the guidebook) that's been climbed by an alternate start. What Jim has accomlished is akin to the Direct Direct... rather than climbing a tree as was done during it's FA. he's pushed straight up the obvious weakness. Yeeha! And yes, to Tradman's point, Devil Made Me Dog It is an established route, but a shite route at best. Sure, I guarantee someone out there loves it (maybe it was their first 12a, who knows???), but it's a choss pile. No one is saying, "hey, wanna drytool China Beach just to see if we can?" That would be stupid. But, to drytool 25' of an existing rock route to reach never-before-freed climbing to get to a runnel of ice that connects from the lip of the roof to the top of Cathedral IS or SHOULD BE perfectly acceptable (and quite the run-on sentance!). And, in my opinion, significantly more asthetic than a chipped/drilled/filed/chossy rock route. It has nothing to do with the fact that the first ascentionist cranks hard... it has to do with a plum line... freeing an aid route... opening your mind to possibilities... 

Rather than spout off about hypotheticals and what-ifs, we should look at the reality of a new classic hard line. I mean seriously, how many people have thought how cool it would be to climb that line... it's RAD! It just took a new style and an open mind to do it. An open mind being key. I know in my 5 winters here in NH my perceptions of what's possible has been elevated by the many very talented climbers up here willing to look at the same cliffs year after year in a new light.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 09, 2006, 06:49:04 AM
the Man rating seems pretty useless.......How do we know how many times a route has been done.  When I was climbing w/ scott decapio a While ago he was sending stuff and not telling anyone.  Maybe that should be a new rating called: (MAN ?)

BTW, Way of the Devil is fine with me..... Just dont drytool Molsons Madness.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 09, 2006, 07:12:09 AM
the Man rating seems pretty useless...


One could argue if they wanted that all rating systems are useless... It's not a numbers chase if that's what someone is looking for. I suppose others will have to do Work of the Devil in order to tag it with a concesus M-grade.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Jim_Ewing on February 09, 2006, 08:29:56 AM
Punxnotdead, you bring up an interesting point, one that I had already considered.  Molsons is in fact the original line of Cathedral Direct.  Once led with pitons which were placed and removed on each ascent.  After Jimmy Dunn,s free ascent of the first pitch and renaming it Molson Madness the pitons were left in place; though they often disappeared.  Tired of the piton thefts a local climber placed bolts to facilitate using Molson as a training route.  Short history lesson over.

Molson Madness is the original line but I chose not to use it to reach the roof as I felt it is too valuable as a rock route.  My original goal had always been the roof and I actually intended to rock climb either Molson or The Devil Made Me Dog It then don the tools and crampons.  But when I saw the amount of water and ice on both lines during the winter that idea quickly died.

So you see, we carefully considered the value of 'good' rock climbs and restled with the idea of climbing an established rock climb even though we ultimately chose the line that by almost all accounts is a pile of shit.

Yup, the grade system applied to it is useless, no question about it, but it's no more useless than if we put a grade to it that is completely off the mark.  It's also just plain tongue in cheek humor.  I couldn't grade it because I don't think I have ever climbed a mixed route this hard.  I would also argue that working a route can and will distort one's perception of the grade.  On one hand I come from a generation of climbers that are notorious sandbaggers so I would have liked to say M8.  On the other hand I would like to think all my effort yielded something reasonably hard like M10 or M11.  In the end I think it is best to wait for others to climb it and apply a grade that makes sense.

Watch for the full story soon out in paperback. ;)

PS: Tradmanclimbz, Looking over your posts in this thread it doesn't appear as though you are sincerely interested in creating thoughtful 'discussion' so much as sanctimony.  Sorry, I,m not looking for a fight; I,m just calling it like I see it.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: dogboy on February 09, 2006, 09:24:35 AM
I would also argue that working a route can and will distort one's perception of the grade.  On one hand I come from a generation of climbers that are notorious sandbaggers so I would have liked to say M8.  On the other hand I would like to think all my effort yielded something reasonably hard like M10 or M11.  In the end I think it is best to wait for others to climb it and apply a grade that makes sense.


I wish more climbers would keep this in mind when grading new routes or downgrading old routes...

Nice job, Jim!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 09, 2006, 02:46:17 PM
I fully understand the M- rating..... I just thought the MAN rating is kind of silly.  Good job on the route, I may try it Saturday.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 09, 2006, 05:09:56 PM
perhaps the following quote might be appropriate:


Many have questioned the quality of this sort of achievement, deploring the use of pitons, tension traverses and expansion bolts, but the record speaks for itself. This is a technical age and climbers will continue in the future to look for new routes. There is nothing more satisfying than being a pioneer.

Allen Steck, justifying the 1st ascent of Sentinel's north face
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Greg_Shyloski on February 10, 2006, 08:12:07 AM
This is just my opinion so it does not mean dung.

I think Jimmy Crack Pipe's new route sets a bad precedent for climbing in general. It is something that could spread to other places and destory some nicer rock/ rock climbs.

His justifications for dry tooling this rock climb are weak. Just about every route on Cathedral used a ladder on the first ascent. They are called aiders. Also I think their are alot of "shitty routes" on the cliff, but I don't go out and dry tool them and scratch the hell out of them just because they are shit. Thin Air has even shitter rock than that route. Its a piece of shit, but that does not justify banging the rock to hell for no good reason. I can think of alot other "shitty routes" like the ones at Square Dock, but they are not worth the risk of breaking all the holds off for just because YOU think they are shit. You talk about chipping and gluing, but just bang the rock with your tools in the same breath.

This drying tooling thing is pure decadence on climbing's behalf.

Instead of heading towards the purity of just leaving a little chalk dust and a little boot rubber on the rock that will wash away in the humidity and water dry tooling just scratches the rock and breaks holds all the time. Ice climbing tools are for ice, not rock! That was their orginal design.

What rock climbs are you going to scratch all up with your boots and axes, break holds off of, and destory, and then justify next? The stuff at Cannon, Rumney, Shagg, or Wild River, Square Dock.  I HOPE NOT!! Go dry tool in the gym on plastic with your metal tools. 

Leave chalk, it washes away, not crampon scratch marks, and broken holds.

Anyhow, that is what I think. Again it does not mean anything.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Dave on February 10, 2006, 08:45:55 AM
"Jimmy crack pipe"

You really sound intelligent!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 10, 2006, 09:04:27 AM
come on Shiloh... you can express your opinion, which is perfectly valid, without the name calling!

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 10, 2006, 09:40:39 AM

On Cathedral (for starters):
Diedre
Black Crack
Three Birches
Dresden
Diagonal
Standard Route
Thin Air
Remission
Repentance
Nutcracker
Double Vee
Chicken Delight



I do not believe this route sets any form of precedent... except in difficulty. All of the above climbs previously sighted have been done as mixed routes for many years. In fact, many, many routes on both Cathedral and Cannon are prized as winter mixed climbs. New Hampshire climbers as a whole seem to have said it's OK to climb rock routes in winter. They are a climbing resource that can be utilized year round... at least that is the message I see as an outsider coming in. Personally, I think it is great -- within reason (as I've previously said).

I challenge anyone to find the terrible scratching assumed on WOTD. After you get on it, you'll see that this is not a climb that you pedal up, grinding rock to sand. Pick placements are as careful and precise as they may be on aid, and seldom if ever does a boot skate -- it's too steep for that. Sure, steel crampons are used, but in this case as precision tools, not blunt damage yielding destructors of rock. It's counter productive and a waste of energy.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 10, 2006, 03:00:02 PM
The question is weather or not the rt has ice on it. If it has a significant ammout of ice on it then the ice tool make sense. If it has no ice or so little ice that it looks and feel contrived then it is a rock climb and not an ice climb.  As for dammaging the rock, one or 2 talented climbers may not make a noticeable impact but it only takes one hack attempting a rt to scratch the heck out of it.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 10, 2006, 04:02:47 PM
I tend to agre with Eric. especially as regards to how little impact the use of tools and crampons had on the route if any. I belayed Jim as he sent it and there was absolutely no scratching around on the holds. it was amazingly prescise.

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 10, 2006, 04:20:03 PM
 like i said, one or two pro's may not dammage the rock but they set the example that this is how its done now. Jo normal goes out and trys to emulate the pros and then we have another enviro crises on our hands to go allong with the trail use, tree killing and bolt wars. Again not trying to take anything away from Jims climb which certainly looks really hard. i am just not suer that this is a good direction for climbing to go. I also am well aware that climbing has allready gone this way and there is nothing that I can or would do other than civily voiceing my opion (non factor) to change this current trend.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 10, 2006, 04:45:33 PM
So, Trad, according to your most recent post, we should all strive for the lowest common denominator? Never mind the fact that there is ice on the route which is probably just as reliable as that of Repentance or Remission. I personally have no desire to stand in line for Standard, Dracula or Dropline. The beauty and joy of climbing, I think, is challenging yourself. For some people that IS Standard, and I applaud them for it. For others it is accomplishing things I can't even conceive of yet... that's what I aspire to. It seems illogical to limit myself, or for the sport to limit itself, based on the thought that someone else cannot 'do it' in controlled/good style and may cause some damage by their own actions. Would we have ever climbed The Nose if that was the prevailing logic? That individual should look into themselves and decide if they are up for the challenge... and take responsibility for their own actions. 
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Jim_Ewing on February 10, 2006, 06:03:35 PM
Greg,

I think you need to go back and read the entire thread thoroughly.  I think you have missed many important points.

BTW, chalk in a cave does not wash off on its own.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: meclimber on February 10, 2006, 08:54:09 PM
Kind of a moot(sp) point to argue.  Repentence is a much better and definitly more classic rock climb than the devil and that is scraped to shit, expecially on the first two pitches.  No one cries over that.  Why? because it becomes a valid winter climb ice, minimal ice, or no ice.  I'd like to think that the majority of us crazy enough to do this stuff summer or winter would be able to determine what a valid winter route is.  Said guide in question from the post above was obviously high as a kite to climb a rock route with tools in rock season.   But it's f*cking badass to climb pretty much anything in winter, let alone a valid  NEW crazy mixed route.  That in a normal winter has ice at the begining and end.  Maybe if someone ground up, frees the whole roof this summer this argument might have some weight.  But until then...congratulations guys.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: meclimber on February 10, 2006, 09:06:11 PM
Sorry, a little buzzed up here, I didn't realize the thread was three pages.  Now that I 've read the whole thing I seem to agree with the most of you that it was a bad ass winter ascent.  I also think the guy who mentioned the fact that the majority of of our 'classic' 'pure' rock lines ( sorry my quotation marks) get climbed in the winter, is right on.  That sh*t is cool as hell.  I do alot of aid climbing and there is nothing that makes me feel like I hang a little lower than nailing something hard on a cold winter day. he he, that works two ways.  anyways, again, good job guys!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 10, 2006, 10:59:45 PM
Eric. Not saying that you can't climb hard and push yourself. Just think that there needs to be some ice to warrent the use of tools. I know i am in the minority here and that my OP dosent mean much but that us what it is :)
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 11, 2006, 06:43:06 AM
FWIW everyone's opinion means something here. agree or disagree, what you think is worth something. the only thing that's worth-less is the name calling.

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: meclimber on February 11, 2006, 07:29:09 AM
yeah Al, moderate! (sober now and going climbing!)
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Tomcat on February 11, 2006, 09:13:30 AM
I'm not for or against this sort of thing. I dry tool now when I mixed climb,and I'm not above pounding in a peg either.However,using the type of traditional winter ascents that took place through the last couple decades as justification does not hold water since as far as I know,not much drytooling went on in the early days. I know we never did it.You climbed the ice with tools and then you dropped them onto your leash,or holstered,and used your hands on the rock.

The tricky part of situations like this is what happens when people apply cutting edge techniques to moderate everyday climbs,which seems to be a common occurance.

So,if an aid climb gets climbed clean,there is often pressure on subsequent ascents to follow suit. So if Moby Grape got a winter ascent without the dry tooling,would we accept a drytooled ascent? Would we agree that it's better to climb the rock with our hands than with tools? What if the work of the devil was climbed without drytooling?

I have not seen the climb,nor led Remisson,nor climb at Jim or Eric's level. This is for discussion.

Tom
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: DWarriner on February 11, 2006, 11:16:26 AM
"Jimmy crack pipe"

You really sound intelligent!

to paraphrase your view:

Jimmy crack pipe and I don't care.

There's a whole parody here, but I don't have the time...

http://www.kididdles.com/mouseum/b034.html
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: DWarriner on February 11, 2006, 11:33:11 AM
So, to those points I say, Cathedral Direct is an established 'ice' climb (check the guidebook) that's been climbed by an alternate start. What Jim has accomlished is akin to the Direct Direct... rather than climbing a tree as was done during it's FA. he's pushed straight up the obvious weakness. Yeeha! And yes, to Tradman's point, Devil Made Me Dog It is an established route, but a shite route at best. Sure, I guarantee someone out there loves it (maybe it was their first 12a, who knows???), but it's a choss pile. No one is saying, "hey, wanna drytool China Beach just to see if we can?" That would be stupid. But, to drytool 25' of an existing rock route to reach never-before-freed climbing to get to a runnel of ice that connects from the lip of the roof to the top of Cathedral IS or SHOULD BE perfectly acceptable (and quite the run-on sentance!). And, in my opinion, significantly more asthetic than a chipped/drilled/filed/chossy rock route. It has nothing to do with the fact that the first ascentionist cranks hard... it has to do with a plum line... freeing an aid route... opening your mind to possibilities... 

When I first saw this, I had some concerns about dry tooling in the cave, but I think Eric's [and Jim's]  points are sound and have no issues with their reasoning.

Good job, guys.

The "Man scale" however - WTF?

Judging from all the controvesy though, I'd have to say that the route name is quite apt.

-David
Title: And one more.....
Post by: DWarriner on February 11, 2006, 11:41:57 AM
Repentence is a much better and definitly more classic rock climb than the devil and that is scraped to shit, expecially on the first two pitches.  No one cries over that.  Why? because it becomes a valid winter climb ice, minimal ice, or no ice. 

The other thing about repentence is that since it is a chimney/off-width all the crampon scratching has very little effect on how it is rock climbed.  If you're mixed climbing a 5.10 face climb and you chisel off the crucial crux crimper** off with your tool, then you've destroyed the climb.  On Repentnce, whether you  stuff your body into 16" chimney or a 16.05" chimney is the same thing.

-David

**Coinincidentally, "Crucial Crux Crimper" is the name of my band. 
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Jim_Ewing on February 11, 2006, 01:59:28 PM
Believe it or not I'm going to defend Greg here for a moment.  I'm in a forgiving mood; celebrating my child's 5th birthday may have something to do with it.

The 'Jimmy Crack Pipe' bit is not Greg's inception.  It actually came from an attempt at the Maine Rock Gym by some to give me a nickname.  Receiving a nickname there is kind of a brand of acceptance by its inhabitants.  Fortunately it did not stick but there are still one or two individuals who insist on continuing to use it, possibly as both a term of endearment and an insult.

Just wanted to let everyone know the scoop on this so as to not have you all pass judgment on Greg.  As for the rest of his post, well, flame away he deserves it. ;)
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 12, 2006, 07:53:43 PM
Can I just ask one simple question?  Who the F*&K are any of us to determine what is choss and what is not choss?

You deem TDMMDI as a shite climb but Molsens is ok?  Pull your heads out of your arses please.

I wonder you assclowns would say if I bolted the new route?  Maybe I will do that.  Why not bring it down to my level since that is what everyone else seems to do?

Selfesh ACTS:

Unairation (super stupid)
Moselns adness (no, wait, everything in the cave)
The drilling hooks in the cave last year.
Most of Wiamea
Bamboozled
The bolted hold at Sundown
Work of the Devil   

The list goes on throughout the world but does Cathedral really need to suffer the efects of some dim witted crack smoker ego scraping upthe already chossy rock to create yet another IMO shite route?

It's more than your selfish act Jim and Eric.  What happens when winter at cathedral becomes a warzone filled with candian assasins drytooling up rock routes?

Once again Screw the route - my only real question is what makes you the person to decide what should and shouldnt be detroyed?

Absolutely Selfish, SelfServing, and weak.   F'ing weak man.

Tony
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 13, 2006, 07:27:33 AM

It's more than your selfish act Jim and Eric.  What happens when winter at cathedral becomes a warzone filled with candian assasins drytooling up rock routes?

Once again Screw the route - my only real question is what makes you the person to decide what should and shouldnt be detroyed?

Absolutely Selfish, SelfServing, and weak.   F'ing weak man.

Tony



Thanks for the thoughtful "simple question", and for all the very flattering things you say about Jim and I. Your points may be valid, but your delivery of them is a little sophmorish... but to each his own... Wait a minute, let me say that again... TO EACH HIS OWN! I am not the one to decide if something is a choss pile, but I am more than welcome to form an opinion as such -- which I have. As far as deciding what and what should not be destroyed... the Cathedral Direct Roof and ALL of the routes in there have seen WAY more destruction than the non-effects that this new winter mixed route have caused. Go there, climb the route, then come on here and blow-hard about it. If it hadn't been said that the route was done would you even know to care? I doubt it. You can't look at it and tell. We did not damage this route... we climbed pre-existing PIN SCARS and previously chipped holds. And, as for what others do, we cannot control that. But that alone is not justification for not doing it in the first place. As much as you may enjoy living in your bubble, I don't want to be there. Seriously... Man has been to the moon. Now there is a whole bunch of NASA crap up there. Is that justification for not going? Hell no! Sure, we ALL should be more careful and considerate of others, but the fear of one person not being so should not deter everyone else from being responsible and progressing. And, if some Canadians come down to try the route, cool! We, at least, have absolutely nothing against our friends up north. And finally, I particularly like your selfish and selfserving comment... I feel certain that your climbing is somehow bettering the greater good. I know that because of it we are somehow closer to a cure for cancer or ending world hunger. I, on the other hand, aside from contributing to no less that three climbers' organizations and thousands of dollars through volunteer work (including self-publishing a guidebook with 100% of profits going to anchor replacement and improvements at the New River Gorge), just climb for me because I enjoy it. I climb routes that I like and that appeal to me. It's so selfish I know...
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Jim_Ewing on February 13, 2006, 08:51:31 AM
Can I just ask one simple question?  Who the F*&K are any of us to determine what is choss and what is not choss?

You deem TDMMDI as a shite climb but Molsens is ok?  Pull your heads out of your arses please.

I wonder you assclowns would say if I bolted the new route?  Maybe I will do that.  Why not bring it down to my level since that is what everyone else seems to do?

Selfesh ACTS:

Unairation (super stupid)
Moselns adness (no, wait, everything in the cave)
The drilling hooks in the cave last year.
Most of Wiamea
Bamboozled
The bolted hold at Sundown
Work of the Devil   

The list goes on throughout the world but does Cathedral really need to suffer the efects of some dim witted crack smoker ego scraping upthe already chossy rock to create yet another IMO shite route?

It's more than your selfish act Jim and Eric.  What happens when winter at cathedral becomes a warzone filled with candian assasins drytooling up rock routes?

Once again Screw the route - my only real question is what makes you the person to decide what should and shouldnt be detroyed?

Absolutely Selfish, SelfServing, and weak.   F'ing weak man.

Tony


Dad?  Is that you?
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 13, 2006, 11:36:28 AM
If I were you father I would have kicked your ass instead - believe that.

 ???
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Jim_Ewing on February 13, 2006, 12:15:16 PM
If I were you father I would have kicked your ass instead - believe that.

 ???

Now I know it's you dad.  Gosh I've missed you.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 13, 2006, 01:30:16 PM
now now children...
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 13, 2006, 04:14:05 PM
If I were you father I would have kicked your ass instead - believe that.

 ???

Now I know it's you dad.  Gosh I've missed you.


Jim, who knew your daddy was such a violent hard a$$. Whatever happened to unconditional love and support?

On a somewhat different note, it was cool to see yesterday that folks are going after it in the Cave. I can't wait to hear of a second ascent!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 13, 2006, 05:15:34 PM
Todays Cover shot looks a lot more like a winter mixed climb' when you see a shot like that  it is obviouse that it is cold, nasty and requires serious winter implements.  When you see  a shot like the  WOD shot it makes you wonder where the ice is.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 13, 2006, 05:56:55 PM
I should have taken a shot of Work of the Devil yesterday. There is a 15 foot overhanging ice pillar off the ground, with ice blobs seeping out of many of the cracks. Plus, almost enough ice above the lip to push through the CD ice line. Oh yeah boys, there's ice... lots-o-fun mixed roof climbing!

Conditions yesterday on Pocket Full of Man WERE nasty. Supreme kudos to Doug and Bayard for putting that rig up!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 13, 2006, 06:24:16 PM
I would love to see it climbed in those conditions. and see pictures. i just get weirded out when I see half naked guys climbing bare rock with tools ;) Full conditions and that is a totaly diferent story. even if the climb is easier with the ice on it. It just looks a lot cooler INMOP.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 13, 2006, 06:26:41 PM
PS... RE: Pocket Full of Man, does it change your perception knowing that it was a pre-existing rock climb called Stars in My Pocket 5.11+ originally done by Handren (I think)? Just curious...
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 13, 2006, 08:11:16 PM
 It depends on how long and hard the ice was getting into it. You can't tell from the pictuer. It does look cold and nasty though. If The ice was only a few moves and  really easy then it may not be worth scratching up the corner? How often does the climb get done in the summer? My personal decisions would weigh those factors.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 13, 2006, 08:17:56 PM
Mixed Climbing is Retarded. 

That is all there is to it.

Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: DLottmann on February 13, 2006, 08:40:54 PM
Should a seldom climbed rock route be open for dry-tooling?  Great question!  I'm not sure were I stand on this one.  I would lean towards thinking if it made a better winter climb than a rock climb the answer could be yes.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 13, 2006, 08:53:45 PM
yeah but it doesnt. mixed climbing is ridiculous
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Griffster on February 13, 2006, 09:03:48 PM
I would totally say yes to that one Dave, not that I'm an authority or anything.  Mixed climbing is a very interesting experience, and one that I intend to keep working on in hopes of being able to go out and challenge myself further, hopefully without being called a retard.  I still have fun...and now I'm glad I suck at mixed climbing so I don't have to take the flack that these strong climbers are taking.  Keep innovating!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 14, 2006, 11:15:24 AM
Blah Blah Blah,

A person did a route that is quite hard with minimal ice on it.  In good years there is ice everywhere.  Go there, try it, then have something meaningful to say.  So many opinions so little really said.  EasternBlowHard.....I look forward to meeting you in a bar someday......Your sarcasm and intelligence is refreshing.....LOL.

Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: wyoclimber on February 14, 2006, 06:46:21 PM
yeah but it doesnt. mixed climbing is ridiculous


Wow, who is this guy that obiviously doesnt know much about anything?  I suppose it would be one thing if you had a mental capacity beyond a kindergardeners "Yes/No" vocabulary but honestly...
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 14, 2006, 09:20:52 PM
YOUR CRAMPONS ARE THE TOOLS OF THE ZIONEST CORPORATE OPRRESIVE MOVEMENT MONEY HUNGRY PUBLICITY SEKING REGIME.




Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: fbs on February 14, 2006, 09:46:02 PM
 :ohad to look twice, thought  I had entered a yahoo message board instead

so, did'nt mixed climbing used to be called alpine climbing?
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 15, 2006, 06:57:19 AM
YOUR CRAMPONS ARE THE TOOLS OF THE ZIONEST CORPORATE OPRRESIVE MOVEMENT MONEY HUNGRY PUBLICITY SEKING REGIME.

WOW, You are one crazy B**tard.   Obviously you are in need of attention....I am bored of your childish taunts and elementary school level spelling.

Someone DEFINATELY dropped a steamer in YOUR gene pool.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: km59801 on February 15, 2006, 10:44:20 PM
just a few thoughts because i'm bored...  this debate exists because Jim(or someone who Jim told) felt it necessary to publish his ascent in an opinionated, argumentitive forum... Now the sport-o's are up in arms, the traditionalists are spewing ethics and others are just debating because they have nothing better to do.... Here's a novel idea:  climb for yourself.... share your excitement with your friends, and leave it at that.  As long you are not permenantly changing the environment in a way that negatively effects the experiences of future climbers you should just do whatever keeps you happy and sane.  Enjoy what fun NH has to offer... Kevin 
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 15, 2006, 11:02:40 PM
just a few thoughts because i'm bored...  this debate exists because Jim(or someone who Jim told) felt it necessary to publish his ascent in an opinionated, argumentitive forum... 

interesting... please reread the first 2 postings in this thread before you say that. I posted the initial one & feel it was pretty matter of fact. the second was a clarification by Eric & was in a similar vein.

1) how is that "opinionated" or "argumentitive"?

2) how could it have been announced better?

oops, you are saying that it should not have been announced.

hmmm...

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 16, 2006, 07:09:03 AM
KN893746-----------  Youare right  - everyone should climb for themselves as long as they ARE NOT FUCKING UP THE ROCK!

Mixed Climbing is still lame - it's like you guys want to go back to aid climbing or something.  Not really very progressive!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 16, 2006, 09:00:33 AM
that is not a fair compareison. Mixed climbing is way harder than aid climbing. Aid climbing at least in my experience is not rerally all that hard it is just really scary. I use adjustable daisys and they really take a lot of the pump out of aid climbing ;D dry tooling on the other hand can certainly be hard and pumpy. wait whay am i answering that spew ???
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 17, 2006, 07:16:30 AM
Quote
Mixed climbing is way harder than aid climbing. Aid climbing at least in my experience is not rerally all that hard it is just really scary. I use adjustable daisys and they really take a lot of the pump out of aid climbing  dry tooling on the other hand can certainly be hard and pumpy. wait whay am i answering that spew

I might be the eastcoastblowhard and a bit outspoken but that quote shows you know absolutely nothing about aid climbing.  Ajustable Dasies - WTF LOL 

With my new trusty Metolius Adjustable Dasies anything is possible!  Did you get your beta off that guy who used to own the shoe shop acorss from IME? 

Drytooling is aid climbing!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Tomcat on February 17, 2006, 08:24:55 AM
With "ajustable" spelling any interpretation is possible Daise. ::)
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 17, 2006, 10:32:55 AM
Actualy I made my adjustable daisy with a chunk of 9mm rope and a wild country ropeman and yes it does take a lot of the physical effort out of many aid moves and significantly cuts down on the irrritation to my tendonitis 8)
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 17, 2006, 06:16:55 PM
I bet its really fast too!

Mixed Climbing is Ridiculous!
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Jim_Ewing on February 17, 2006, 09:13:33 PM
I bet its really fast too!

Mixed Climbing is Ridiculous!

Go back to name calling and threats of violence.  At least then you won't be boring us.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 18, 2006, 04:25:18 PM
The only thing violent in here is your attack of the rock with metal. 

Really Uncool.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: km59801 on February 19, 2006, 08:52:59 AM
this has become somewhat entertaining.... reading folks defending the cave against scratches with such vigor is...well, it's comical.  I wonder where they were when the cave was developed for sport tugging... rock pried off, flakes epoxied on and holes drilled all over.  I guess only the ways that you use the rock are acceptable to your ethic.  On top of that the Cave is possibly the least aesthetic piece of rock in the North Country... it's not like someone dry tooled the Prow, Waimea, or Moby Grape (or did they)...................... Have fun, stay sane, enjoy climbing and don't freeze your ass off.   Kevin
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: km59801 on February 19, 2006, 07:03:29 PM
Jim, How did the crux hold grow from 1/8" to 1 1/2"??? and that first stein pull got a lot more secure didn't it?  Will Gadd posed the coan on his website "If one hammer blow is cleaning, how many is chipping".... but that's in limestone not granite.  All of the moves had been done clean the weekend before your send without this enhancement.  ....................Kevin 
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Justus on February 20, 2006, 11:05:47 AM
What has been done in the past should not bear too much weight on what is done in the future. Arguments about thin air etc are interesting, but notvery helpful since, hopefully, we are trying to improve as a sport/interest group and not just rely on what's been done for our moral guidance. Someone made the interesting point about how it is inappropriate to nail something that has been established as clean. That is a general consensus, i get that not everyone will agree. This seems like it could also be applied to the question of "To tool, or not to tool"  If the climb existed as a free-climb beforehand it seems counterintuitive to open it up to mixed-climbing. admittedly, you say no scarring happened, but it raises the point of what to think  about this sort of thinking more generally. Maybe this is irrelevant but maybe not: would it be acceptable to dry-tool lonesome dove or ride the lightening?  choss or not choss is too subjective a term to be the determining factor. One man's choss...


justus
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Greg_Shyloski on February 20, 2006, 11:05:36 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 21, 2006, 06:51:33 AM
.....and remove all bolts and not put protection in on rock climbs......LOL Your logic doesn't stand up to practical use.  BTW no more aid climbing either hooking is bad for the rock!!!  As long as we are not out there bashing the shiznit out of the rock, there is no measureable harm.

Bill
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: F_Bomb on February 21, 2006, 04:31:22 PM
Aww shucks guys,

Just seems to me that if you expect your opinion to be taken seriously as part of an intelligent, well informed debate, you should probably know what you are talking about.  Go try Jim's route and then talk shit about it  -- I wonder how many folks could even point out Jim's line if they were standing in the Cave right now.  Or atleast, go try some newschool mixed climbing for yourself....  I'll bet you find it to be less destructive and way more challenging and fun then you expected. 

And cut it with the bleeding-heart environmental arguments too, because we all should be aware that destructive practices regularly occur in all disciplines of climbing...

And one more thing --  what's wrong with aid climbing??!!  Not progressive enough for you, brah?  All you pudknockers should stop reciting the lame, eliitist spray you just sucked off from the latest batch of mags and go try an El Cap nailup for yourself and then you can talk shit about it. 

Aid climbing is the FUTURE of our sport, and if you don't realize that, well... you just aren't as progressive as I am.

Freddie Wilkinson


Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: eastcoastblowhard on February 21, 2006, 09:23:30 PM
Quote
Just seems to me that if you expect your opinion to be taken seriously as part of an intelligent, well informed debate, you should probably know what you are talking about.

I forget    ---     Freddy is one of the cool "in" people so his justification for killing shit is cool and intelligent.

Quote
And cut it with the bleeding-heart environmental arguments too, because we all should be aware that destructive practices regularly occur in all disciplines of climbing...

ok Rush and since it happens all the time we should just ignore it. 

I suppose if you passed me on El Cap while I was enhanding a hook  that you thought was only marginal---  I could just tell you to screw cause it happens all the time and it is the future of our sport.  Not everyone has to be as "hard" as you to have an educated opinion.  I don't think one person regurgitated anything from one of the sprayfest mags in this forum.  You sound pissed at the mags or something.  Why?  Are you not being featured enough?

Announcing that you have done hard nailups and therefore can talk shit is no better than a neophyte at Rumney talking shit. 

Quote
Aid climbing is the FUTURE of our sport, and if you don't realize that, well... you just aren't as progressive as I am.
  Agreed --- minus the last half.  How progressive is being wasted at the cliff on PBR while trying to hold down a shitty job to piece together your next trip?  About as progressive as the rest of us. 

Step off your high horse.  Climbing is a trivial pursuit and whats left of the rock will be here long after you are ever thought about.

Flame On,

Tony   
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: F_Bomb on February 22, 2006, 06:32:08 AM
"Freddy is one of the cool "in" people so his justification for killing shit is cool and intelligent."
"How progressive is being wasted at the cliff on PBR while trying to hold down a shitty job to piece together your next trip?"

I think you are giving me way too much credit here.... I'm not really as cool as you are making me out to be.

Excuse me -- gotta run to the fridge for another PBR.



Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 22, 2006, 06:32:29 AM
Explain how aid climbing is the future?  LOL.... What is this? the 60's?

 :-*

Bill
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: dcorn on February 22, 2006, 08:05:37 AM
Seems to me that we should all get out climbing instead of talking all this BS.  Maybe even go try the route before you diss it, get yourself spanked then talk more trash.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: dcorn on February 22, 2006, 09:23:44 AM
We better stop climbing the dike, damn mixed traverse.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 22, 2006, 07:39:57 PM
Decorn. believe it or not that was one of the stupidest posts in this thread. the dike is an alpine climb. all of pitch 2 has been pretty dry the last 2 years but there is thousands of tons of ice on the rout. The concerns voiced in this thread refer to dry tooling routs with Verry little or No ice on them.  Most of the ofending rts are short and sport.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 22, 2006, 08:33:19 PM
short and sport.

cool...

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: dcorn on February 23, 2006, 11:04:26 AM
It was ment to be a stupid post to go along with the 6 pages of the others.  Just go climb
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Greg_Shyloski on February 23, 2006, 06:22:05 PM
Maybe before we all go climbing or get on the net...maybe we should just drop our pants and just drag our nuts through the snow and chill out just a bit.

Maybe we would think better.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: tradmanclimbz on February 23, 2006, 07:02:56 PM
What fun would that be? the whole point of these kinds of sites is to provide a venue for climbers to share ideas, condition reports, beta and above all rant about ethics ;D What would a forum be if everyone agreed with each other and everyone posted a factual politicaly correct post? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Once in a great while some good even comes out of these kinds of disscussions.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 23, 2006, 07:57:19 PM
What fun would that be? the whole point of these kinds of sites is to provide a venue for climbers to share ideas, condition reports, beta and above all rant about ethics ;D What would a forum be if everyone agreed with each other and everyone posted a factual politicaly correct post? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Once in a great while some good even comes out of these kinds of disscussions.

right on tradmanclimbz

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 23, 2006, 09:28:19 PM
However, Dragging my nuts through the snow does sound like a really neat thing to do......

This is a great forum for us all to discuss our own particular views without having to throw punches and be embarrassed at work Monday morning with bruises and lost teeth.

However, maybe we could set up a Climbers fight club?  LOL

Good job on moderating Al

Bill
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 24, 2006, 09:08:22 AM
hey David... not a good idea, unless you are absolutely certain. & I'm not sure that you are! tho the pix doesn't say who it is. what that just a "being cute"? perhaps you owe punx an apology!

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: DWarriner on February 24, 2006, 11:43:44 AM
Offending note has been removed.

Sorry guys - it was an attempt at a joke - obviously failed.

I thought would be funny if eastcoast was climbing rock with crampons, but I sullied pux's good name in the process.

Once again, many appologies.

-David
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 24, 2006, 12:36:30 PM
Apology accepted......

The climb is called Screaming, it is at Frankenstein.  And for all you out there who dont like mixed climbing....The route was originally established as a mixed climb.....Not that I would care anyways.  LOL
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Dave on February 24, 2006, 12:46:29 PM
punxnotdead, Where is the route and what is the grade? It looks cool. While others are crying on the net I think I will go scratch up some rock! Dave R  ;)
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 24, 2006, 01:07:35 PM
now that's what I like...

  Peace, In Our Time

<grin>

I agree with Dave, where's the route?

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 24, 2006, 04:16:43 PM
Maybe we should start a new topic:  Awesome Mixed climbing and the Awesome climbers climbing them..

LOL

The route is just to the left of the ramp start to Banshee.  The corner crack.... Very good pro with the crux at the top it goes at M5. 

BTW--- I scratched the crap out of it  ;D
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 24, 2006, 04:19:20 PM
Maybe we should start a new topic:  Awesome Mixed climbing and the Awesome climbers climbing them..

well... while we COULD start the topic, I'm not sure that any of this crowd would qualify to be IN it tho.

<grin>

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Admin Al on February 24, 2006, 04:21:05 PM
so Punx, was the pin still there?

--al
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: punxnotdead on February 24, 2006, 04:34:07 PM
no
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: emac on February 25, 2006, 07:16:08 PM
So, has anyone here actually gotten on Work of the Devil? Been out of town in WY climbing and not up north for a couple of weeks. Just curious...
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Jim_Ewing on February 27, 2006, 11:47:29 AM
Those who oppose the existence of this route should not bother reading this post.  It has nothing to do with the ethical debate over the route and may in fact cause you physical or mental harm.

just a few thoughts because i'm bored...  this debate exists because Jim(or someone who Jim told) felt it necessary to publish his ascent in an opinionated, argumentitive forum... Now the sport-o's are up in arms, the traditionalists are spewing ethics and others are just debating because they have nothing better to do.... Here's a novel idea:  climb for yourself.... share your excitement with your friends, and leave it at that.  As long you are not permenantly changing the environment in a way that negatively effects the experiences of future climbers you should just do whatever keeps you happy and sane.  Enjoy what fun NH has to offer... Kevin 

Kevin, this debate exists because differing opinions exist.  This forum is merely the venue.  Many of us don,t have the luxury of hanging out at IME or local bars to have such discussions.  The various factions are indeed ‘up in arms,, so what?

I did not post the route nor did anyone I told about the route.  Al was there and Eric was there.  I didn,t have to tell them.  I am not so full of myself or pretence that I have to feign humility and ask them not to tell anyone.  Al is a webmaster, posting this sort of thing is one of the main purposes of this site.  Eric is a professional photographer.  What kind of friend would I be to deny them their chosen pursuits?

 Climb for yourself you say.  I am not a sponsored climber, never have been and never will be.  I pay for my own trips and buy my own gear (for the most part).  I,ve been climbing for nearly 30 years.  I have a family that I miss when I'm away.  I have a full time job.  I,m lucky if I get to climb 80 days a year.  So who exactly do you suppose I,m climbing for?

Jim, How did the crux hold grow from 1/8" to 1 1/2"??? and that first stein pull got a lot more secure didn't it?  Will Gadd posed the coan on his website "If one hammer blow is cleaning, how many is chipping".... but that's in limestone not granite.  All of the moves had been done clean the weekend before your send without this enhancement.  ....................Kevin 

Kevin, I had climbed all the sections of the roof  clean (whatever that means) several times before anyone else ever got on it.  Why then would I need to enhance any holds?  The stein pull may indeed be more secure, however, it was plenty secure before.  It has ripped out once already and will most likely do so again.  I didn,t rip it out the first time.  My understanding is that some locals who got on it soon after I placed the bolts broke it.  The rest of the stein pull story is this: I heard of the demise of the stein pull and was also told that another one had been found.  When I returned to the route post breakage I went up to examine the broken hold and find the other one.   I noticed the broken hold had many small fractured bits of rock inside the crack and subsequently removed them and found I was still able to use it.  The other hold you mentioned I have no knowledge of, in fact I don,t know which hold you are talking about.  What I do know, and others can verify, is that no holds were enhanced for the send.

I don,t believe in hogging projects or ownership of routes but I do believe in the common courtesy of asking the person that put in all the effort cleaning and bolt placing minds others getting on it.  I think most people would agree this is a reasonable view.  How then would anyone other than my partners or myself know anything about any holds on the route?

Here,s a simple Koan for you in two different forms.  One form is a simple sentence and the other is a poem.  This Koan is not by me.  It is called  Preaching From the Third Seat .

When he opens his mouth he is lost. When he seals his mouth he is lost. If he does not open it, if he does not seal it, he is 108,000 miles from the truth.

In the light of day,
Yet in a dream he talks of a dream.
A monster among monsters,
He intended to deceive the whole crowd.

Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: Dave on February 27, 2006, 12:13:17 PM
Jim, The author of a local guide once told me after I added a bolt to a route with the permission of the first ascent party and took alot of shit for it. "people will bitch and moan no matter what you do so just ignore them."
Dave
I wish I was good enough to give "Work of the Devil" a shot! It looks way cool!
While others are crying I think I will go climb.
Title: Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
Post by: rockytop on March 10, 2006, 04:37:39 PM
 :D The nice thing about a lot of these safe, new, bolted, mixed routes is that you really don't have to be a hardman climber to give them a shot...probably the worst thing that can happen is you'll leave a $4 biner behind - cheaper than a movie.
Unless of course, your leashless tool gets stuck in a crack when you fall and you're too pumped to get back up and get it. :)  Jim will give it back hopefully.