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General => Rock Climbing: Trad => Topic started by: Tomcat on September 19, 2006, 09:14:05 AM

Title: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Tomcat on September 19, 2006, 09:14:05 AM
The bolts on top of They Died got chopped.There used to be a pin there that kept some people out of trouble,last week I saw some folks toproping The Slot off that anchor,after doing a good lead of The Slot.The leader was out of cams and placed three stoppers,but the outward pull when you use that point compromises the security of the nuts.The nut anchor is adequete if you are belaying someone up off your harness and you are there to attend and see the anchor,and diminish the outward pull.The tree is toast.

The stoppers were equalised with a cordelette,but it looked far from safe.I know it's "a perfect A1 crack".But someone is going to get hurt there.If you do decide to toprope those routes,there is a big fat angle around back in the corner,it's hard to see.

Tomcat
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: strandman on September 19, 2006, 05:12:55 PM
If some one can't find a good anchor at the top of they died, then perhaps they should look again at the placements on the way up. I don't condone chopping of bolts but, ample natural gear exists.
This is a real crag NOT Rumney.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: ToddSH on September 19, 2006, 06:57:43 PM
No one said this is Rumney.  I don't understand why anytime a bolt gets chopped in conway people have to bring up rumney. Rumney is what it is and people don't have to go there if they don't like to. Rumney has nothing to do with cathedral. We need to get that straight. There is plenty of options for an anchor on top of they died.  The best anchor for the slot is in the horizontal crack below the finish. If you build an anchor there, you won't interfere with anyone on they died. Todd
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: JakeDatc on September 19, 2006, 07:29:20 PM
No one said this is Rumney.  I don't understand why anytime a bolt gets chopped in conway people have to bring up rumney. Rumney is what it is and people don't have to go there if they don't like to. Rumney has nothing to do with cathedral. We need to get that straight. There is plenty of options for an anchor on top of they died.  The best anchor for the slot is in the horizontal crack below the finish. If you build an anchor there, you won't interfere with anyone on they died. Todd

Exactly!!!  WTF does rumney have to do with Cathederal's cluster fuck of issues?  If anything it should be an example of a place that has it's ethics clearly definined and most everyone is happy.

you can keep your "real crag"  (http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_boring.gif)
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: slobmonster on September 20, 2006, 02:22:00 AM
What mystifies me is that no-one will sack up and simply replace the anchors at the North End.  The chopping "event" of last year was one fool's folly, who should have known better to begin with.  Cathedral Ledge is not Rumney --this much is true-- but that does not mean that relevant anchors with a significant history (and implied/explicit approval) do not have their place. 
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on September 20, 2006, 06:53:37 AM
It is just sad that a-holes have to keep chopping.  These people obviously have no regard for the cliffs and their future.  No, there were originally no anchors there, but for MANY years there were (probably been there longer than the choppers age).  Then they were re-established and chopped again (badly), to what end will this arrive at?

Bill
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 20, 2006, 07:47:32 AM
Building an anchor in the crack is a no brainer. how do you get down when your done though? I havent done those short climbs over there in many years? If getting down involves sketchy downclimbing or killing a tree then bolted top anchors are also a no brainer.  cathedral is not and never will be a wilderness crag. It is a high traffic sport trad crag and chopping bolts won't change that it just helps trash the place....
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Tomcat on September 20, 2006, 08:28:07 AM
I am not advocating for or against the bolts there.I have,in fact,spoken out here against the one's that were placed atop Bird's Nest.I don't need a lecture from anyone about anchoring myself there either.I've led They Died about thirty times without incident,and the Slot maybe 15,so spare me the lecture.I can make an anchor anywhere anyone can.

I agree 100% that a safe anchor can be arranged there,did so the same day we saw the sketch anchor.My issue is that as the bolt wars play out,the cliff keeps getting more and more screwed up.The piton was there for a long time,someone placed the bolts,removed the piton I guess.Someone chopped the bolts,great,now there is nothing to keep the outward pull off the nuts.All the anchors were chopped eventually and a month or so ago we reinstalled some slings on the big oak there across the ledge just so we could rap without pulling rope over tree bark.

Every time this s**t happens !! There were some functional slings on the rap tree over Bombardment,then we got the bolt anchor that lasted one day,then it got chopped but the slings are gone too.

For the record I thought the bolts over They Died were a good idea,they kept people from traversing all the way over to rap,knocking stuff down,throwing ropes down on people leading Child's Play,etc.. They kept the Slot and They Died more independant.They are no more or less"necessary" than the belay bolts on the Book.

What's Rumney?

Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradchick on September 20, 2006, 08:50:15 AM
What's Rumney?


 :D :D :D  That has to be the funniest line I've seen on here in the last year!

The anchor that Tomcat refers to was scary looking.  The guy toproping The Slot fell numerous times on his way up and I think is lucky the anchor held.

Seems to me that the north end is a place that gets alot of traffic....guides with clients and people working on their crackclimbing skills.  At times, there have been people on every climb.  I think the bolts should be put back before someone does get hurt by having their anchor blow, traversing along the top or dropping something on climbers below.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: OtisHo on September 20, 2006, 01:48:03 PM
For years people set up belays with out bolts at the north end(the practice aid climbs) and the only people who got hurt were people trying to scramble up to set up top ropes. There was no need for the bolts,, they were put in without the approval of the local community, by a local guide, to make things more "user friendly" . He personally thought it should be done and didn't bother considering or respecting any of the local history.
 
I guess with Trad chicks logic bolt anchors should be supplied everywhere guides and thier clients and people working on their skills need them. Why don't you start with everything on the Barber wall, Pine tree and Turners Flake.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Tomcat on September 20, 2006, 02:16:42 PM
LOL! There already are bolt anchors at the end of Turner's Flake.

And there is a fine tree atop Pine Tree.And an easy walk off.If that were the situation at They Died I would not have posted.That is not obvious?

And a tree with slings atop Double Vee,that serves for the Barber wall. The "Practice Aid Slabs" are our beginner's area,and such as it is,people with lesser skills seem to climb there.

Todd,how's that horizontal crack belay work,I guess I'm not so good at anchors after all.I mean,when whoever goes last and cleans it do you just solo off?
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: gags on September 20, 2006, 02:28:49 PM
As a new hampshire climber, I do not consider myself a rumney climber or a conway climber, but I have always thought that this arguement over bolts on cathedral is rediculous.  And the climbing community in conway looks like a bunch of jack asses because they can't figure this out.  For everyone that is in favor of chopping bolts and anchors remember that there is always someone out there that climbs harder than you and may have a stronger ethic than you.  Maybe no bolts should ever be drilled, if you can't protect it without bolts and you don't have the sack to run it out, maybe it is not meant to be climbed.  So I hope that everyone who is in favor of bolt chopping has never clipped a bolt themselves.

gags
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: slobmonster on September 20, 2006, 02:35:33 PM
I guess with Trad chicks logic bolt anchors should be supplied everywhere guides and thier clients and people working on their skills need them. Why don't you start with everything on the Barber wall, Pine tree and Turners Flake.
The problem with your own "logic" is that continued (over/mis)use of the spots you mention --The North End, The Barber Wall in particular-- has already knackered the limited poor soil cover, and with it the root systems of the trees you so rely on. 

The tree atop Double Vee that Tom mentions has been looking the worse for wear for years now.  And at some point, be it five years or fifty, the cliff will be thoroughly denuded, anywhere within walking distance of a climb's topout.  I know it's not the most memorable comparison, but have you ever been down to Hammond Pond, outside Boston?  I learned to climb there in high school, and I remember there being nice healthy trees right on top of the cliff.  Now, the only remaining trees are thirty or forty feet back.  This is a direct result of foot traffic by prideful anti-bolt Cantabridgian topropers.  Hindsight may not be twenty-twenty, but it's certainly clearer than this Cathedral mypopia. 

The North End is exactly the type of place *most* appropriate for bolt anchors.  The "community" has discussed this ad nauseam over the years, I remember fondly several summers past with bi-weekly meetings, arguments, discussions, and even some dialogue.  One thing firmly agreed upon was that the North End's anchors, though not present for the FA were appropriate, relevant, and should be maintained.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: OtisHo on September 20, 2006, 02:47:03 PM
Personally I think it's great that North Conway has a continual bolting war going on. It keeps people honest. If no one objected to bolts I think there would be bolt anchors on most routes and several would have had extra bolts added to make them safer. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: ToddSH on September 20, 2006, 02:58:10 PM
The only place that should be referred to as the valley is YOSEMITE. Enough of this valley shit. You guys need some regulation up there because you can't manage it yourselves.

The anchor in the horizontal works well. You just have to eventually go to the top and build another anchor. Shenanigans, I know. However, you will not interfere with anyone on they died.

Why doesn't everyone go climb somewhere else. We have all done these routes a millin times. Go find your own They Died Laughing. They exist throughout New England. Todd
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: brianfulton on September 20, 2006, 02:59:06 PM
Somehow, the argument that having permanent anchors, bolts, at the TOP of a climb degrads the original nature of the climb does not make any sense to me. The top is where you walk off, or descend somehow. By definition the climb is over. How does it possibly have anything to do with the climb?

If one claims bolts clutter the landscape, perhaps that arguement has some validity. But to say a set af anchors, irregardless of their nature (e.g plant a new tree), at the top of a cliff area in the woods degrads the original nature of the climb is not logical to me.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on September 20, 2006, 03:00:40 PM
Around and around we go. 

I agree that the Practice slabs are just that: PRACTICE slabs.  The bolt anchors when they were put in really helped clear up the FUBAR that inevetibly happens at the top of those climbs and allows for a cleaner and safer day.  I DONT think anchors should be put everywhere (we have had this discussion before), but geesh chopping and re-chopping is just plain selfish and proves nothing but stupidity. 

BTW- I still want to know who destroyed Coffin Nail.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 20, 2006, 03:09:05 PM
Otis, if you think that bolt wars are great you should maby seek some professional help ::)  maby work on the anger management a bit ::)
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: om on September 20, 2006, 03:12:37 PM
I personally don't care much about any particular situation and Ok with whatever consensus local community arrives at. What bugs me is the dynamic nature of the situation.
One weekend you come in and there is no longer a rap off the Onion Head. Fine, ok, since I didn't bring my shoes I'll go over and rap from the Saigon. Next weekend turns out there is a new rap from the tree on top of Deidre but there is no way to get off the P3 ledge - just a sorry looking single sling on a tree with a single biner obviously left by someone right before me. Ok, add a biner, rap. Too bad I didn't know when I was on top - this time I actually had my shoes with me...
Can you guys get together, decide on whatever it is you want to do with the cliff and stick to the plan? I know I'm asking a lot, but so far the only thing we can count on is a pile of crap on the Upper Refuse belay  :(
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: OtisHo on September 20, 2006, 03:26:10 PM
Why do you infer I'm angry? I think of bolt wars as an intelectual argument, perhaps the term is the wrong one to use. Many of my good friends are sport climbers and think that more bolts should be added to climbs. We agree to disagree on the subject but we still have fun arguing about it. I personally feel that climbers should take resposibility for their own safety. As a general idea I do not feel people should add bolts to climbs or add anchors unless there is a very good reason to do so. I do not think that there is a good justification for adding them to They Died. We can agree to disagree.

In an earlier post I was refering to the original placement of the bolts on They died and Birds Nest having been placed with out the consent of the climbing community.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Dave on September 20, 2006, 03:37:13 PM

"they were put in without the approval of the local comunity"

OtisHo, Who is the local comunity? Everyone in the valley you talk to has a different oppinion and thinks thiers is the only one that counts. You guys don't even want to consider the oppinion of the first ascent party. Trying to get approval for anything in the valley is a f*****g joke. I have tried. I collected many, many e-mails from valley locals approving of my proposed project only to get a call one night from a well known valley climber who stated "I don't care what people think. If you place the proposed bolts I will chop them within 24 hours."



 I propose filling all the cracks at the North end with concrete to give you guys something new to fight about. ;D
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on September 20, 2006, 03:40:30 PM
And on it goes  :'(
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: strandman on September 20, 2006, 05:33:34 PM
EXCELLENT ! tHIS STILL THE MOST DEVISIVE CLIMBING COMMUNITY IN AMERICA! At least we have some non PC types that will speak up
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: gags on September 20, 2006, 06:11:03 PM
Chopping and adding new bolts should be considered vandalism.  I wonder if the state imposed a $10,000 fine and a year in prison for offenders if this would deter anyone.  I am surprised the forest service has not stepped in yet.  Since the climbing community can't figure this out, maybe the state should. 

gags 
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 20, 2006, 06:42:26 PM
gags. thats crazy. if the forest circus stepped in and fined us for putting up rts were would we climb?  Otis, your quote was "I'm glad that there are bolt wars"  that seems a bit psyco to me.  I don't mind arguing but certainly do not want to have to get physicaly involved. Its just crazy that these simple minded Zelots go after things like a rap station at the top of a practice climb??? condone smashing bolts that were placed on lead? and then they go ahead and bolt their own projects ::)
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: gags on September 20, 2006, 07:16:36 PM
I agree with you Tradman, but if we can not come to a resolution the forest service might have to step in even though no one would want to see that.  Otherwise it seems like it is all or nothing.  As for where we would climb if we can't bolt climbs, well I am sure no one has climbed everything this state has to offer.  Sometimes hiking more than 100 yards to the cliff's base makes for the most enjoyable climbing.  There doesn't seem to be an ethics war in the truly wilderness areas of the state.  Doesn't cathedral have enough established routes?

gags
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: bag11s on September 20, 2006, 07:54:44 PM
Apparently at Cathedral, for reasons that I may never be able to comprehend, bolting a sport climb and placing a two bolt anchor on a practice/beginner climb or at belay stations on popular multipitch routes are considered different animals. One look at the Cathedral cave with it,s proximal grid bolted variants should let anyone know that North Conway is only different from Rumney in the level of hypocrisy exhibited by some of it,s local watchdogs. The main difference between the two venues is that at Cathedral- sport climbs are bolted from aluminum push up ladders, rather than from rappel, so I guess that makes all those bolts ok. Of course, at Rumney there,s no reason to walk along the cliff tops, since pretty much all the routes end at very nice permanent anchors just below. Then again, this robs one of the true summit bagging experience to be had at Cathedral, damn the verdure.
   
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 20, 2006, 08:24:38 PM
Pleanty of ladder work at rumny as well. there is a diference between top anchors and bolted belays and sport climbs. each  situation is diferent, i may argue for a top anchor at the noth end and be venomently against a bolted belay on an established multi pitch climb. diferent animals entirely..
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: ed_esmond on September 20, 2006, 09:36:31 PM
"Pleanty of ladder work at rumny as well..."--tradman

well, i can't speak for anyone else; but, i've never used a ladder to bolt a route at rumney. ;)

"North Conway is only different from Rumney in the level of hypocrisy exhibited by some of it,s local watchdogs." ---bags11

as for the "sport" routes in the cathedral cave; most are just not that well done...  at rumney, we tried to have a high level of craftmanship and pride in our handiwork.  that is the major difference. 

nconway has always been a hotbed of strong climbers, strong egos and even stronger hypocrisy; we tried to be a hotbed of quality routes, no matter what the grade...  (of couse, if you do happen to find and bolt a couple of the hardest routes in the country, that's a pretty cool thing...) we've tried to keep the hypocrisy to the minimum.

"Sometimes hiking more than 100 yards to the cliff's base makes for the most enjoyable climbing."  ---gags

a quick reading of a previous topic shows that certain people have a problem when some motivated climbers are willing to walk a lot more than "100 yards"  to more remote areas to find "most enjoyable climbing..." in a style they like.

and as for the guy who think "bolt wars" are a good idea... try living and climbing in ct or any surrounding state.  the whole concept of "bolt wars"  would get real old... real quick. 

most "bolt wars" don't have anything to do with being "anti"-pc, they have to do with one guy who thinks his tiny pee-pee is bigger than everybody elses... and is afraid that everyone else will find out the truth.

respectfully,

ed e
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 20, 2006, 09:58:05 PM
Ed, about 8 years ago I saw a bunch of alluminum ladders stashed up at Wiamea so I assumed that they were for setting rts. Actually there was a wooden ladder up there last year?  I have no problem with that if it is a sport climb that you are building. I don't agree with everything at Rumny but for the most part I think it is an excelent Model for a sport Area.  As for cathedral  I wouldn't want to see the sport method applied but it certainly would be nice if they could at least use some comon sense and not have a small handfull of bullys trashing the place.  There are many Trad areas that have allowed mixed climbs and rap stations to exist allongside gear  climbs without molestation..
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: bag11s on September 20, 2006, 10:26:24 PM
You say different animals entirely- maybe so, maybe not. A lot of bolted anchors have appeared on "established" multi pitch climbs over the years, safe anchors that everybody ever after both belay & rap from. The protection on many established climbs is constantly evolving. Having enthusiastically enjoyed more than a few both trad & sport routes throughout the region for a pretty long time, I've seen all kinds of changes. Rapping off of a blueberry bush when nothing else could be contrived is not one of my happier memories, although it was part of the adventure experience on that particular route.

Some ladders may have been used at Rumney, where else will you find a more pragmatic group of FAs. I was being ironical. The community service of a few devoted people there has created hundreds of routes that thousands of people pit themselves against and enjoy. They have achieved a considered consensus on what constitutes a great sport climb and know how to put it in.

The great things about climbing in our trad areas in N Conway / Cannon are the outstanding rock architecture and the creative lines scoped and established by pioneering climbers over the last century. Improved belays in an era of skyrocketing popularity in the sport do nothing to cheapen their contributions. Having people get injured over and over again on the standard cave route, say, when it could be prevented so easily by adding one bolt seems beyond goofy. This particular problem came up for community review every year for years. There are many other examples, I am sure.  
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: crabnebula on September 20, 2006, 11:01:21 PM
you know there were bolt meetings, there were agreements IN THE VALLEY and with the climbing COMMUNITY at hand.........however, if individuals decide to take there own beliefs and ram them down the throat of everyone that s/he JUST had a conversation with, then that is the problem.....the individual that has been responcible for the bolt chopping has been warned by a system that will not fail. Bolt chopping is over, at the North End. The bolts WILL be put back as soon as a functioning drill is around. AND anyone who wants to chop them, you will be dealing with the town police for property damage, and will go to jail as this offence on cathedral is a state offense.

Enjoy your bickering.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Erik_N on September 21, 2006, 06:44:07 AM
Just to help clarify some things:
1. Cathedral and Whitehorse are in Echo Lake State Park part of the New Hampshire State Park System. They are in no way related to the Forest Service other than neighbors. 
2. Unless you own your own cliff you can,t do what ever you want, although at times it appears that way.  The USFS has a management plan with 2 pages of climbing specific regulations.  The State parks plan is more general but climbing easily fits into many of the regulations.  These regulations are very reasonable and most people would agree to them.
3. Who enforces it?  The climbers, climbers see the cliff everyday not the  authorities .  Authorities will get involved if they have a  strong case and if people come forward to complain. 
4. Local consensus agrees (in my opinion) when 1 of 2 things happen. 1. A public meeting is held and a majority vote is taken. 2. Time has dictated the action is accepted whether it,s through apathy or through approval.  The anchor on They Died has been there since anyone can remember. Roughly 14? years ago the pin anchor became a bolted anchor and as far as I can remember stayed that way until they were chopped last year.  That is community consensus.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: old_school on September 21, 2006, 07:33:14 AM
You guys need some regulation up there because you can't manage it yourselves.

Todd,

I have suggested this for years, but there really doesn't seem to be any support for such and endeavor. I share the blame in a lot of this nonsense as I live up here, and I too and tired of the BS that surrounds this abortion of ethics, but I have to admit (and I can't be alone in this) that without a governing body...I feel a bit powerless to do anything. We should be able to govern this ourselves, but there seem to be two extremes here that have had a difficult time with any kind of dialogue. Well, this too shall pass, but in the meantime, we all remain a bit frustrated...   ???
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: climbhigh on September 21, 2006, 09:08:03 AM
Eric, in light of your statement does that mean that the bolted anchor on Thin Air will/would be able to be replaced? That anchor was there for a good many years and was chopped by a mis directed individual.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: JBeta on September 21, 2006, 09:57:06 AM
I find this ongoing discussion to be quite absurd and I will state my reasons.

1. The "bolt war" in North Conway seems to be focused on bolted anchors. Many of the people who consider themselves hyper-traditional hold areas such as Yosemite, Eldorado, J-Tree, etc in high esteem. These are the traditional strongholds of the country. All of these places heavily employ the use of bolted anchors. I agree that bolts should not be added to a trad pitch, but placing a bolted anchor on a heavily travelled route just makes good sense. Just ask the locals in Squamish or at Indian Creek or in your beloved Yosemite.

2. Why are the anchors on an incredibly popular route under scrutiny while the bolt-on gym hold at Sundown continues to exist? If you want to chop something, why don't you chop this blatant abberation? Also, a route within 100 yards of the practice slabs, The Mercy, is almost completely manufactured. All this within the confines of your "pristine" traditional sanctuary.

But, now that I think about it, I wonder if the "anchor choppers" can actually get to the top of the routes previously mentioned. 
 
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: ToddSH on September 21, 2006, 10:35:55 AM
The gym hold at sundown has been removed as of this summer. What an eyesore that was. It amazes me that the gym hold has been up there since the 80's. The scene up in conway is such an oxymoron. Todd
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: JBeta on September 21, 2006, 10:54:54 AM
It is good that the hold is now gone.

I agree that the scene is oxymoronic.  I am happy to visit North Conway, but I wouldn't want to live there. Am I wrong to assume that the anchor chopping is being perpetrated by just a few people?

Say what you want to say about Rumney, but all is pretty peacefull over here on the other side of the hill.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on September 21, 2006, 04:10:09 PM
It is funny how people keep brining up Rumney when trying to figure out what is ethically right in N. Conway.  It is like comparing Apples and Oranges.  Until someone or organization steps up to the plate and offers a concrete definition and a consensus on what the ethics should be at the NC crags, then it will be Anarchy as usual.  More rock will be destoyed and more people will bitch and complain (myself included).

Another thing.  This consensus needs to be adopted and carried out by the local guide services and trickle down from there.  As of now, it appears that they all do whatever they want with no regard to what others think about it.  I am not saying that what they have done or will do is bad or good, but what they do is out of their own little tribes and followers.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: slobmonster on September 21, 2006, 04:31:18 PM
Another thing.  This consensus needs to be adopted and carried out by the local guide services and trickle down from there.  As of now, it appears that they all do whatever they want with no regard to what others think about it.  I am not saying that what they have done or will do is bad or good, but what they do is out of their own little tribes and followers.
Though many North Conway guides also serve as volunteers with MRS, and interact within the community in a variety of ways, linking bolt & anchor promulgation (as you describe) with the guide services and climbing schools is not quite the complete picture.  Part of teaching climbing is exposing guests, students, and clients with the local perspective on things such as our bolting history and the strange evolution of anchors.  Marc always used the traverse pitch on Thin Air as an analogue for the whole shebang, and he did so effectively and with candor.

When I was living and guiding in the Mt Washington Valley I frequently chopped superfluous and unnecessary tat/poot/bail slings, and updated "legit" tree-based rap station with dark cord or webbing and steel rings.  Based on OM's description, the clean rap from the top of Diedre has been yanked (in my opinion the birch tree above the corner is NOT the way to go, btw).

I also fixed a stopper behind the tree on Airation to save that puny piece of flora from further abuse (is this still up there?  I hope so... keeping that wee tree in good shape will mean that the spot won't sprout a 2-bolt anchor, as has been suggested elsewhere. 

And, to be fair, I updated older/rattier bolt anchors with modern hardware, most recently (pre-chopping) changing the They Dies anchor from its prior vertical orientation to one horizontal, adding chain to the Birds Nest Anchor, etc.

What you describe, the "trickle-down," is exactly what myself and co-workers, friends, and climbing partners hoped would be implied.  We were nervous, however, about making such a link explicit.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on September 21, 2006, 04:49:01 PM
I may have implied that the Guide services in the area should be the ones who create and adopt the ethical stadards for the area.  This should be first agreed upon by the local community (well advertised and attended), then adopted by the Guides to help spread the word.  The guides, on most occasions have been the best voice of our community and certainly would help to enforce such standards.

Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: strandman on September 21, 2006, 05:17:04 PM
The entire "local" moniker is a load of shit. I climbed 4 days a week in the area and my partners house was at the base of the crag, yet we were "boston " climbers .

Bless anarchy !
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on September 21, 2006, 07:00:35 PM
Bless anarchy !

"Anarchy sounds OK to me, but who is going to clean the sewers?  You?"  - Jello Biafra

Come on, John, you mean to tell me that your word is worth nothing.  That to me is a "load of Shit."
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: DLottmann on September 21, 2006, 07:49:08 PM
...changing the They Dies anchor from its prior vertical orientation to one horizontal...

This could probably be it's own topic but I have often wondered about this.  For reference the anchor at the top of Rapid Transit seems to be the best kind of bolted rap anchor you could have.  Two bolts, stacked vertically, connected with a chain and a fat ass steel rap ring.  Pretty much perfect equalization and zero extension... why do we but bolted anchors in horizontically?

And to get really nick-picky:

If it is horizontal, we should put chains, or atleast two rap rings each so the rope doesn't twist when you pull it.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: slobmonster on September 21, 2006, 08:21:46 PM
Two bolts, stacked vertically, connected with a chain and a fat ass steel rap ring.  Pretty much perfect equalization and zero extension... why do we but bolted anchors in horizontically?
Yeah, I am in agreement with you here.  These are great, durable, and clean-pulling.
(http://fixeusa.com/images/037_anchor.jpg)
The problem with the original vertically-oriented They Died anchor was the ring hangers installed there; when rappelling, the load was only taken by the top bolt. 

But if you're going to go do it right, I think that now you have your opportunity.

This is also a nice option, allowing for TR-ing through one's own 'biners, which the last climber simply has to unclip.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/slobmonster/bolts_fig1.jpg)
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: M_Sprague on September 22, 2006, 10:51:26 AM
(http://fixeusa.com/images/037_anchor.jpg)

I dislike these things, though they aren't terrible. What happens when the ring gets warn? You have to replace the whole contraption. I also like two independent rings. Fixe uses nice materials, but I have always thought they could use some refinement in their design.
.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/slobmonster/bolts_fig1.jpg)

I like this style the best, especially with nice fat 1/2 quicklinks. I will usually forgo the sections of chain, unless I need to use it to even the bolts up or hang over an edge. If the bolts aren't too far apart and the bolts are nice 1/2"ers, the vectors involved aren't a problem. This style makes it easier to just throw a couple quickdraws on the bolts to save wear on the anchor if the second is going to TR or use DMan's system if they are not experienced cleaning. If I use chain, I use 3/8 proof zinc plated chain. It's bomber and you can still get your rope through it if some knucklehead steals the bottom quicklinks. Of course, don't forget to paint them up before you install them to keep the visuals down
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: plan_b on September 22, 2006, 07:52:30 PM
A few of you have hit the nail on the head; there is no community consensus in North Conway.  There is no group of bearded men directing the minions, and there is not going to be.  We had, however, come into a balance that was fragile, but working... kind of. 

I have not talked to anyone who lives in this area, I mean those folks who climb at Cathedral after work, who thinks Dale chopping the bolts at the North End was a good idea.  I think it was stupid, which surely sounds hypocritical (I've chopped a few bolts myself), because it was seemingly a random act.  The bolts were promptly replaced and then poof, gone again!  The cliff quickly becomes the victim of some guy's whim.  The bolts were chopped haphazardly and incompletely and only served to piss everyone off, and probably turn people off from this great resource we have and to the community which surrounds it.  There has not emerged any reason for the attempted removal of the bolts or any logical explanation as to why.  Furthermore, there was a sighting of the actor using a left over stud he could not remove as piece of one of his own anchors!  I, as well as anyone I have talked to about the issue agree that the bolts should be replaced, but if they are just going to slammed off again there really is no point.  We'll all have to deal with the inconvenience until this guy can be convinced to desist.  Sorry.

So yes, in North Conway there is great inconsistency.  When I chopped the bolts on Thin Air it could have been any number of routes that had been retrobolted.  But, Thin Air was the excuse used so often, dismissively, for why did it matter, it was just Cathedral,  "Look at the most popular route on the cliff, its littered with bolted cracks."  The point of debolting Thin Air was not specifically about Thin Air, but instead to try and stop a greater creep of convenient anchors and bolts onto established routes in a great climbing area.  In my view the community had been too allowing for too long and I wanted to tip the scale back a little bit.  I had no intention of re-chopping anything that was replaced on that route, I said my peice.  Additionally, as some have pointed out there are plenty of retrobolts left intact in the valley, but its is not practical to remove them all, nor do I care to or want to.

In the end of the day these locals that you folks talk about have to live together.  We were getting there until this crap at the North End threw a delicate balance out of whack.  Every member of this community is not ever going to agree, that is for sure, but, as someone who lives here and has also lived in a lot of places, this community is wonderful.  I have never understood the claim that it is full of egos, maybe it was from an earlier time or maybe I'm one of them, I don't know.  Either way I've met a lot of extremely friendly and warm people here who thoroughly enjoy each other's company and agree to disagree on the rare occasion that they get together.

If we can just sort out this thing at the North End I do not think any great changes are going to occur regarding fixed gear on Cathedral and Whitehorse.  Save for one loose cannon most are, if not happy, permissive of the current situation (North End excluded).

Thanks,
Bayard Russell
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on September 22, 2006, 11:00:32 PM
When I chopped the bolts on Thin Air it could have been any number of routes that had been retrobolted.  But, Thin Air was the excuse used so often, dismissively, for why did it matter, it was just Cathedral,  "Look at the most popular route on the cliff, its littered with bolted cracks."  The point of debolting Thin Air was not specifically about Thin Air, but instead to try and stop a greater creep of convenient anchors and bolts onto established routes in a great climbing area.  In my view the community had been too allowing for too long and I wanted to tip the scale back a little bit. 

Unfortunately, your act(s) were immediately followed by Dale and others like him chopping and destroying other routes in the area.  It may have, non-intentionally, given them the ethical permission to chop what they viewed as retrobolted convenience anchors and bolts. 

What has happened at the North End is a tragedy and I am glad that people are speaking up (both online and off) against such selfish and destructive acts.  This really could be the beginning of a local consensus for the ethical treatment of the rocks and our climbs.

Bill  Keiler

Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: climbhigh on September 22, 2006, 11:36:00 PM
 ;) Nicely said Bayard so when do you plan on putting the Thin Air bolts back???? Jim :-X
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: steven_c. on September 28, 2006, 01:13:49 PM
Dale was right in what he did.  The experience is the issue here.  When we simplify the experience and chip away at the pieces that give satisfaction, reward, adventure and mastery we are killing the thing we were after in the first place.  Rumney is an important example of how an area is transformed from a climbing area into a trampled, grid-bolted area that more closely resembles a gym than a climbing area.  This trend that lowers the neccessary competency or speeds things up is  occurring at many areas which were considered traditional areas.  Lumpy ridge has bolted anchors to facilitate guiding which never existed until a year or so ago.  The pear buttress is plastered with bolts to make it easier to earn a paycheck.  To let the bolts go back in at the north end would teach new climbers nothing about self-reliance or mastery and would take from the experience of traditional climbing.  Stewardship and legacy are the other critical components to this debate.  When we bolt these traditional areas  needlessly, we are reducing the experience for the new guy/gal and we may be teaching some pretty poor lessons in stewardship and preservation.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: steven_c. on September 28, 2006, 01:37:21 PM
Someone wrote on this thread that the guides should be recognized as the governing voice of an area or a community issue.  That is absolute bullshit.  That should never ever be the case.  Every guide service is using public land for private profit.  That dollar makes for many bad decision makers when it comes to stewardship, and management of adventure-based activities that involve risk.  To give them the greatest authority  in this very important topic would ensure that convenience anchors would over-run every cliff within close-range of a guide service.  It would be a bad thing for the public.  A school owned by folks without a conscience could create profit motivated decisions in an arbitrary and damaging manner. 
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 28, 2006, 02:59:56 PM
What is to learn by rapping off of a tree?? those bolts are a no brainer. If someone were to add bolts to belay stations on any of the multi pitch climbs that require gear belays I would be royally pissed but a bolted station at the top of a single pitch rout that has no good walkoff is  simply a non issue.(unless you are seriously uptight) I agree with you that the guide services should NOT write the rules but I do hold them accountable for the high traffic and therfore they should bear the brunt of the cost of maintaineing anchors and trails seeing as they are the ones making money off of those amenitys.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on September 28, 2006, 04:38:29 PM
Dale was right in what he did.

This Dale person was an idiot for doing it and you are one if you believe in his actions.

Bill Keiler
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: steven_c. on September 28, 2006, 06:25:58 PM
Those bolts were put there during a time when climbers in america were adopting the methods used by europeans and there was incredible confusion in america as to who was right; traditionalists or euro-bolters.  They remained there out of confusion and complacency and not consensus.  Many of the great climbers in the area at the time (88-94) were guides.  Many were incredibly egotistical and behaved terribly.  Several were intimidating and aggressive. They were guides and seen by many as vanguards at the top of their craft.  Bridwell was incredilble but he chipped outer limits and free stone so it could go at 5.11.  The fruit cup wall was bolted ; ruined as an aid route.  Women in Love saw 7 ascents by piton so Webster could stick his fingers in the cracks.  Damboise drilled pockets to put up the mercy.  These actions were swept under the rug because they were the community vanguards, the athletic elite.  Complacency and fatigue on the part of the community allowed those bolts to stay put for 14 years not consensus.  They should have been yanked right away along with the mercy and the additional bolts on the mordor, along with camber and ventilator.    Its a slippery slope that should always be considered an important topic.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 28, 2006, 07:26:12 PM
what does any of that have to do with a rap anchor on a single pitch climb????????
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: steven_c. on September 28, 2006, 08:13:34 PM
If we trivialize the importance of the action because it is a single pitch little climb we can then trivialize a bunch of little actions. That is exactly the slippery slope that allowed Caldwell to bolt the piss out of the 30 + pitch dihedral wall.  No longer A3.  That is the slippery slope that is ruining Lumpy Ridge.  That is exactly what complacency and fatigue do when it comes to sticking to a standard of care for an area or style. 
It has alot to do with one little single pitch climb
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 28, 2006, 08:53:50 PM
are you smokeing crack? or just spending too much time reading the Koran?
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: climbhigh on September 28, 2006, 09:18:36 PM
I climbed at Lumpy for 10 days this summer and saw only a handful of bolts, sure did not ruin my experience. I have to admit that I also like to dip into my chalk bag, and I do enjoy seeing a bolt above me. I wonder why I enjoy climbing so much......NOT!!!!!
I also think you are on crack or maybe lighten up some ::)
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: DWarriner on September 28, 2006, 09:25:46 PM
I personally don't care much about any particular situation and Ok with whatever consensus local community arrives at. What bugs me is the dynamic nature of the situation.
One weekend you come in and there is no longer a rap off the Onion Head. Fine, ok, since I didn't bring my shoes I'll go over and rap from the Saigon. Next weekend turns out there is a new rap from the tree on top of Deidre but there is no way to get off the P3 ledge - just a sorry looking single sling on a tree with a single biner obviously left by someone right before me. Ok, add a biner, rap. Too bad I didn't know when I was on top - this time I actually had my shoes with me...
Can you guys get together, decide on whatever it is you want to do with the cliff and stick to the plan? I know I'm asking a lot, but so far the only thing we can count on is a pile of crap on the Upper Refuse belay  :(

I think om sums up the current Cathedral experience really well.  

About once a year, I manage to get a week off and head off to some climbing area in the US or elsewhere for a climbing trip.  I buy (or have a guidebook) look things over and head out that way.  Maybe I go to a Wilderness area where bolts aren't allowed, maybe I go to a sport area.  Depending on the area, I have a pretty good idea what I want to do.  If I can count on hardware, I'll push myself more, if not, I'll subtract a couple of grades.  It's all good.  But it's this "dynamic" aspect that om refers to that, is so irritating.  It's all so needless.    

If I didn't live in New England, I wonder if I'd want to come here knowing that at any given time, a single idiot with a crowbar or drill would just basically alter everything.  

I know, I know, part of climbing is self reliance and preparing for the unexpected.  But on climbs established 20, 30, 40 years ago, come on.  

Bolting next to cracks is ridiculous and pretending the north end of Cathedral is some sort of wilderness area is also stupid.  There's got to be a sensible middle ground that can everyone can agree on, and when you get a rogue jackass that either adds or subtracts hardware it is restored to a consensus.  

-David

Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on September 29, 2006, 01:16:20 AM
There's got to be a sensible middle ground that can everyone can agree on, and when you get a rogue jackass that either adds or subtracts hardware it is restored to a consensus. 

I think that a lot of folks thought that there had been a consensus agreed upon at the bolting meetings that went on several summers ago. unfortunately the very next day Bayard went on his little rampage. once that happened all the consensus thing went out the window, opening the door to Dale, Josh & a few others. even now, 3 years later, the controversy rages & fools take matters in their own hands.

<sigh>

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Erik_N on September 29, 2006, 07:55:46 AM
We as a climbing community will never agree on the ethics of bolting.  That,s acceptable and makes for good conversation.  What I have learned through attending the bolting meetings is that even if people are on the same page they still can,t agree on specifics.  With that in mind during those meetings it was agreed to not look back but to preserve what we have and try not to repeat the same mistakes.
 In other words; "Don't chop and don't add bolts".Use those anchors you don,t like as examples of why you may not want to have more in the future.  Chopping existing anchors only creates conflict not resolution.

Steve,
Forgive me if I am wrong but haven,t you replaced several bolted anchors?  One of them at the north end?   
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: climbhigh on September 29, 2006, 08:24:04 AM
If what Bayard did was a rampage what would you call what Dale and Josh did numerous times? I do not agree what Bayard did was correct, seems that he was mis guided, but the actions of Dale and Josh, and also their rantings on this site were over the edge. If we can't all get along why not be tolerant of others opinions?  Jim
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Tomcat on September 29, 2006, 10:12:47 AM
As the original poseur,I am going to ask that the flaming be left out of this thread.Specifically the " are you on crack" and such. I did not want or intend for this to be a back patting session,I want real input from both sides,and we got several pages along without the flames.

Steve's posts lend some good perspective and historical perspective as well.His concerns about bolt creep are real,and I have them too.Bayard was making an important statement,and has always had the sack to own up to it.

I have climbed here for 25 years,and lived here as a climber for 23.I was climbing several times a week at the time of the four pizza,four hour meeting,but only found out about it the day of.I had no idea there was to be a vote,and left after a few hours,so I can't imagine I was the only interested party that was left out.

I agree with Steve about the guides too. Guide services use the resource to make money,period.You may believe all that crap about how everyone should have a chance to experience climbing,or use it as a tool to help troubled teens or whatever,but I don't.I believe if you want to climb you will find a way to do so,just as I did.That the easier you make the experience,the less value it has.So as far as I am concerned the guide services owe it to rest of us to make up for the increased traffic by doing more than their share of maintenance,but I don't recognise them as a governing body,quite the opposite in fact.

I would not be in favor of removing Ventilator as it is a part of the colorful history of the cliff,but I do wonder why Ego Trip is considered OK,as it was,according to Webster,completely rap bolted.Why the bolts on The Book are sacrosanct,but the ones on They Died are not.

Tom Stryker

Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: rustyrat on September 29, 2006, 10:26:29 AM
Well the good thing about all this childish ranting is that fewer and fewer people are going to want to visit North Conway. the negativity that exudes is sure to keep the number of visitors down.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: ToddSH on September 29, 2006, 10:36:51 AM
The people that check out this forum are the minority. THere are plenty of people out there that could care less what happens on this website. TO say that less people will visit North Conway is preposterous. People will still come even though a couple of bolts are missing. The routes are still stellar. Todd
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: rustyrat on September 29, 2006, 10:48:37 AM
So people don't stalk you with big knifes and guns to see which route you do and if they approve of you doing it? phew! not all is lost then. It's good to know gangs of vigilanties are not patrolling the cliffs with big sticks. You'd certainly have thought so reading the posts on this site!
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Tomcat on September 29, 2006, 11:03:00 AM
Pidgeonholing rant deleted by Tomcat in consideration of Radair's well stated opinion to follow :-[
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: radair on September 29, 2006, 11:46:01 AM
We as a climbing community will never agree on the ethics of bolting.  That,s acceptable and makes for good conversation.  What I have learned through attending the bolting meetings is that even if people are on the same page they still can,t agree on specifics.  With that in mind during those meetings it was agreed to not look back but to preserve what we have and try not to repeat the same mistakes.
 In other words; "Don't chop and don't add bolts" (my addition: to/from existing routes)....

I think this is well said. The acts of a few individuals do not define an area or community.

I don't really understand why it is necessary to be bashing North Conway vs. Rumney. I know for a fact that North Conway is a great place to live. I'm sure Rumney is also. The climbing areas are distinctly different, primarily due to the contrast in geology. That does not make either one better or worse, just different. Be thankful we have two diverse areas so close together that we can enjoy different types of climbing on any given day. If you don't like clipping bolts on fantastically unique rock, don't go to Rumney. If classic granite routes don't turn you on, don't come to the Mt. Washington Valley. But you don't need to spray about how superior one is to the other, or pigeon hole either area's local climbers into some particular stereotype, because that's just bullshit IMO.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: SCUD on October 01, 2006, 01:28:41 PM

Why the bolts on The Book are sacrosanct,but the ones on They Died are not.

Tom Stryker



As a point of information - The belay at the end of the 1st pitch of The Book was bolted on the first ascent. The ones on They Died Laughing, Bird's Nest, Jack The Ripper etc. etc  were added many years after the first ascent. Since the mid 60's, the ethic at Cathedral has always been that bolting is frowned upon except on a First Ascent (A Climber's Guide to Cathedral & White Horse Ledges - 1969). Obviously, there have been many occacasions where individuals have felt otherwise and have bolted many of the routes on Cathedral for many reasons.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on October 01, 2006, 03:40:39 PM
As a point of information - The belay at the end of the 1st pitch of The Book was bolted on the first ascent.

interesting... there is a legend that purports that there was no belay there & it was added later AND the reason that it's so low was to keep it from the eyes of "someone" who would have chopped it if it had been seen!

so that is just "legend" and not truth?

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on October 01, 2006, 04:17:16 PM
I agree with much of what Steve Cooneys says but when you start frothing at the mouth over a bolted top anchor on a single pitch climb that does not have a decent walk off you stop sounding reasonable INMOP
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: JBro on October 02, 2006, 09:09:47 AM
So people don't stalk you with big knifes and guns to see which route you do and if they approve of you doing it? phew! not all is lost then. It's good to know gangs of vigilanties are not patrolling the cliffs with big sticks. You'd certainly have thought so reading the posts on this site!

I find it funny and ironic that those who accuse the forum regulars of sensationalism and hyperbole always seem to use even greater sensationalism and hyperbole to make their point.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on October 02, 2006, 09:22:01 AM
That is the beauty of the internet ;D Where else do you get to talk like this? ;)
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: beaner on October 09, 2006, 05:55:37 PM
no bayard your the stud.
anyway the rantings i had put on the internet were made up jibberish to humor me over the persitent name calling and threats of the children on this forum. I figured it was the norm. Cooney is right bayard is wrong. Specially since he actually could of put persons in danger with his actions. People can walk off the north end or rap from the tree. Not so on thin air. Anyway i am going to court for this and I admitted to doing it and im taking resposability for my actions. Ill probably get fined and thats that. I have been talking to the state and am working on so closure to this situation. I believe it may soon be just as much of a crime to place bolts as remove them.The state geological society, Is interested in this situation as well.If i lose its okay. you all lose. except for studs like byard. The rest is up to all of us to respect the natural beuty of this area. and my spelling sucks so make fun of me for that again will you. Just look around you at this town and this country and see what happens when you give concessions. They just take more and more. Just read the posts and listen to dale and trad chick and countless others,al. Its obvious where its going.Bayard your sadly mistaken. open your eyes and pay attention. I am a fool. And a ass and all those things youve mentioned, takes one to no one.mirror mirror on the wall whos the biggest fool of them all.Probably me.why dont you look in the mirror.Lets just stop all of it and repair the damage.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: DLottmann on October 09, 2006, 07:06:12 PM
no bayard your the stud.
anyway the rantings i had put on the internet were made up jibberish to humor me over the persitent name calling and threats of the children on this forum. I figured it was the norm. Cooney is right bayard is wrong. Specially since he actually could of put persons in danger with his actions. People can walk off the north end or rap from the tree. Not so on thin air. Anyway i am going to court for this and I admitted to doing it and im taking resposability for my actions. Ill probably get fined and thats that. I have been talking to the state and am working on so closure to this situation. I believe it may soon be just as much of a crime to place bolts as remove them.The state geological society, Is interested in this situation as well.If i lose its okay. you all lose. except for studs like byard. The rest is up to all of us to respect the natural beuty of this area. and my spelling sucks so make fun of me for that again will you. Just look around you at this town and this country and see what happens when you give concessions. They just take more and more. Just read the posts and listen to dale and trad chick and countless others,al. Its obvious where its going.Bayard your sadly mistaken. open your eyes and pay attention. I am a fool. And a ass and all those things youve mentioned, takes one to no one.mirror mirror on the wall whos the biggest fool of them all.Probably me.why dont you look in the mirror.Lets just stop all of it and repair the damage.

Dale,

People can walk off the North End, atleast two have slipped and died.  I watched one get carried out to the road soon after moving here.  If someone else fell from the sketchy approach trail it WOULD NOT be your fault.  I am not saying that, just pointing out that the walk off is sketch.  On your second hack job YOU left a loose bolt with a rap ring above Bird's Nest.  I watched someone rappel from it.  If it had failed and they had died it would not be 100% your fault, we must inspect fixed gear, but wouldn't you feel some sort of responsibility?  Would you tie a fake water knot on a rap sling and leave it for some newb to teach them a lesson?  I am not name calling.  I am not ranting.  You can rappel from anywhere on Thin Air.  Did the bolts at the North End affect the natural beauty of the area?  Do you really want to go down in the history books as the one who banned ALL bolting in the Whites, not that I am too concerned...yet.  Take a look outside of the valley.  Worry about Iraq, soldiers dying, energy crisis, population crisis, Korea's nuculear program.  There are plenty of other avenues to be an extremist in.  And I don't mean to be insulting, just anyone with such far right or left views is a bit extreme in my eyes.

Your last sentence confuses me... let's stop the damage... but I've been told you will continue to damage the rock if anyone replaces the anchors...
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: beaner on October 09, 2006, 10:33:22 PM
the second time i just removed the hangers. The one that was loose was allready like that from the hack who doesnt know how to put bolts in. so thers 2 hacks to blame here.And also i didnt remove the bolts from they died laughing the second time just the birds nest ones and the ones above childs play. And personally the soldiers in iraq joined the milatary thats there job and i really dont care. That may sound sick but what do you expect is going to happen to people who join the milatary of a nation who loves to fight wars. I dont think im going to stop bolting but im going to open a can of worms. And i would like to stop the bolting of this area. Enough is enough. lets leave the rest of the cliff to the cliff. why not we dont need it all. But of course the environmentalists out there want to bolt up everything to save trees. if you want to save the trees on the cliff dont climb.  You know it all is just about stopping the further bolting that keeps happening here. Little by little you see more and more no matter how many people take down the ones that are not supposed to be there dave. You alone are guilty of breaking the rules. But youve learned your lesson. "he was doing want he thought was right" thats is what was said.But yet i keep reading and hearing about you trying to advocate more bolting when the consensus was enough is enough.Even if your not actually doing it your talking about trying to get it done with permission.To me that doesnt soud like enough is enough. Lets just keep nagging untill someone says alright son go ahead.WHAM thers more bolts and now everyones afraid to get rid of them or alienate themselves. Dave stop climbing and focus all your energy on helping other people if your so worried about the state of affairs. Donate some of your time to help the elderly.Stop driving a car.Dont shop and live in a cabin without electricity. Grow your own food responsibly and give up all your possesions and etc. UNTIL then dont talk about wordly affairs because its all talk.INTO ACTION.I am not holy or right im just trying to open a can of worms so someone will take notice. and ill lose im sure of it but at least i tried.Have a great day and please just think a minute.Think without being angry.And imagine lift service to tukermans ravine. shop at walmart and be a good american and do your duty and punish witout compassion. Judge and and be judged. walk and chew gum. Drink and be mary.Buy lots of christmas presents, Its really good for the economy. And kill a queer for christ. and all that apple pie shit.God bless america dave the biggest arms selling country under jesus amen. Cause that flag decal wont get you in to heaven anymore there already overcrowded from your dirty little wars, cause jesus dont like killing no matter what the reason for.Always did like that song any other john prine fans out there. Im sorry
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: drew on October 10, 2006, 02:44:50 AM
Listen, I think the bolts on Thin Air should be ...

Hey, wait a second! What's going on here ... are we talking about bolts being chopped on a different climb?

How many bolts do you guys got in North Conway? There can't be that many to chop! I mean, every time I check this website, it seems like more and more bolts are being chopped. Blasphemy! No, wait, Courageous! Hoo-fucking-ray!

I've been gone from this website for two damn years, and this is where you've gotten to? Right back at square one? Where is Dr. Phil? Where is Jerry Maguire? We need those guys like Colorado needs more plastic, shit-house ice to mindless chip, i mean, chop, i mean ... i'm so cold.

Bayard, get the f over here and put me on hip belay. I'm going to traverse out to that chicken head and see if we can rap off it. ...

And if there's anything I can do in the way of putting more water in the hampster cage or spinning the little wheely, then by all means, wake me up before  I go girl, don't leave me hanging like a fucking yo-yo.

okay?
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: DGoguen on October 10, 2006, 07:49:23 AM
= Judge and and be judged. walk and chew gum. Drink and be mary.Buy lots of christmas presents,  Im sorry

Now theres a great toast for the company Christmas party this year.

WOW
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: JBro on October 10, 2006, 09:15:04 AM
the second time i just removed the hangers. The one that was loose was allready like that from the hack who doesnt know how to put bolts in. so thers 2 hacks to blame here.And also i didnt remove the bolts from they died laughing the second time just the birds nest ones and the ones above childs play. And personally the soldiers in iraq joined the milatary thats there job and i really dont care. That may sound sick but what do you expect is going to happen to people who join the milatary of a nation who loves to fight wars. I dont think im going to stop bolting but im going to open a can of worms. And i would like to stop the bolting of this area. Enough is enough. lets leave the rest of the cliff to the cliff. why not we dont need it all. But of course the environmentalists out there want to bolt up everything to save trees. if you want to save the trees on the cliff dont climb.  You know it all is just about stopping the further bolting that keeps happening here. Little by little you see more and more no matter how many people take down the ones that are not supposed to be there dave. You alone are guilty of breaking the rules. But youve learned your lesson. "he was doing want he thought was right" thats is what was said.But yet i keep reading and hearing about you trying to advocate more bolting when the consensus was enough is enough.Even if your not actually doing it your talking about trying to get it done with permission.To me that doesnt soud like enough is enough. Lets just keep nagging untill someone says alright son go ahead.WHAM thers more bolts and now everyones afraid to get rid of them or alienate themselves. Dave stop climbing and focus all your energy on helping other people if your so worried about the state of affairs. Donate some of your time to help the elderly.Stop driving a car.Dont shop and live in a cabin without electricity. Grow your own food responsibly and give up all your possesions and etc. UNTIL then dont talk about wordly affairs because its all talk.INTO ACTION.I am not holy or right im just trying to open a can of worms so someone will take notice. and ill lose im sure of it but at least i tried.Have a great day and please just think a minute.Think without being angry.And imagine lift service to tukermans ravine. shop at walmart and be a good american and do your duty and punish witout compassion. Judge and and be judged. walk and chew gum. Drink and be mary.Buy lots of christmas presents, Its really good for the economy. And kill a queer for christ. and all that apple pie shit.God bless america dave the biggest arms selling country under jesus amen. Cause that flag decal wont get you in to heaven anymore there already overcrowded from your dirty little wars, cause jesus dont like killing no matter what the reason for.Always did like that song any other john prine fans out there. Im sorry



Wow, and you're calling the contributers to this forum "children"...? Pot, meet Mr. Kettle...

-John
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: bumpkin on October 10, 2006, 11:18:32 AM

Kids!!!

DON'T DRINK AND POST!!

(See Beaner's post above for reasons why!)

That's all,

csg

ps. Oh yeah, and maybe get out a little.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on October 10, 2006, 06:15:48 PM
No kidding, Dale seems to be as illiterate as he is in lacking common sense.

Bill
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Mike_B on October 10, 2006, 07:15:45 PM
...Although it does look a little like a passage from a Faulkner novel, and he won the pulitzer, I believe ;)...
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: beaner on October 10, 2006, 10:08:39 PM
 
What the gods know about good and evil is this: Whatever they do is good for one but evil for the other, and it cant be otherwise. If the quail eats the grasshopper, then this is good for the quail but evil for the grasshopper. And if the fox eats the quail, then this is good for the fox but evil for the quail. The gods obviously can't make a rule like "no quail may eat  a grasshopper" or "Quails deserve to be protected from foxes." Grasshopper, quail, and fox all live in the hands of the gods for a time, and not one of them has cause for complaint or disappointment. The same is true of us. " Every life in the community is owed to the community-and is paid back to the community in death. The community is a web of life, and every strand of the web is a path to all the other strands. Nothing is exempt. Nothing is special. Nothing lives on a strand by itself, unconnected to the rest." this applies to us as well.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on October 11, 2006, 06:28:16 AM
At least tell us "oh Grasshopper," where your quotes come from.  And no, not all actions are seen as good and evil.  Your actions were completely selfish and therefore evil.

Bill
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2006, 08:35:11 AM
Dales actions at the cliff were selfish and childish. His postings are just plain stupid!
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: bmiller on October 11, 2006, 09:03:45 AM
Community is exactly the point that seems to be real topic.  That is why one person making decisions for all has caused such a lengthy discussion.

All of our actions do effect each other, we are a community, a climbing community.  We come together on the rock and stay connected through guide books and the internet.  Within this community there is agreement/disagreement, discussion, (maybe) compromise and eventually consensus.  There was consensus whether right or wrong.   Over time this consensus may change, grow and develop. 

Our community is only as strong as our ability to disagree, discuss and compromise.  One person stiring things up and making this sort of decision for all is selfish and self centered.  It does not change any ones opinions nor opens any eyes.

I could care less about these bolts. 

It is unfortunate to see this community at such odds acting in a "last man standing" sort of way.  One liners bashing each other neither encourages discussion, compromise or consensus. 

Whether you like it or not we all have drills, hammers and pry-bars.  There needs to be consensus. 

The other option is we can all start carrying bolting kits, hammers and pins and see what kind of mess we can make. 
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2006, 09:33:26 AM
neither encourages discussion, compromise or consensus. 

There is nothing to discuss with people like Dale and no room for comprimise because people like him think they are right and everyone else is wrong. They need to teach us the way!
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: old_school on October 11, 2006, 11:08:19 AM
And kill a queer for christ. and all that apple pie shit.God bless america dave the biggest arms selling country under jesus amen. Cause that flag decal wont get you in to heaven anymore there already overcrowded from your dirty little wars, cause jesus dont like killing no matter what the reason for.Always did like that song any other john prine fans out there. Im sorry

So let me get this straight....Jesus was a Trad climber?  :-\
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: beaner on October 11, 2006, 04:45:11 PM
jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: beaner on October 11, 2006, 04:50:12 PM
Uru in the Valley of Sleepers

         
      Uru, who in the rest of the world
      is known as the Awakener,
      has a different name in the Valley of Sleepers,
      and this is how he came to have it.    

      One day on his journey Uru came to a strange land where no one saw, no one spoke, no one heard, no one made, and no one thought. It was known to its neighbors as the Valley of Sleepers for this reason. Uru, who in the rest of the world is known as the Awakener, has a different name in the Valley of Sleepers, and this is how he came to have it.

      Uru met a man who called out to him, "Uru, Uru! Please help me! My eyes are asleep, so I cannot see." Uru awakened the man's eyes and turned to continue his journey, but the man stopped him, saying, "I thank you, Uru, for awakening my eyes, but before you leave you must finish the task and tell me what to look at."

      After a moment's thought, Uru said, "Look at what's around you. Look at what interests you. Look at what needs to be seen. Use all your faculties to awaken others as I've awakened you."

      "Yes," the man said, "but can't you be more specific than that?"

      "How can I know what's around you to look at? How can I know what interests you? How can I know what you need to see?" The man was unsatisfied by this answer, but Uru had no other for him and so continued his journey.

      Soon he was stopped by a woman who, through gestures, gave him to understand that her voice was asleep. Uru awakened the woman's voice and turned to continue his journey, but the woman stopped him, saying, "I thank you, Uru, for awakening my voice, but before you leave you must finish the task and tell me who to talk to and what to say."

      After a moment's thought, Uru said, "Speak to the people around you, and say what needs to be said in order to awaken them as I've awakened you."

      "Yes," the woman said, "but can't you be more specific than that?"

      "How can I know who is around you to speak to? How can I know what needs to be said them?" The woman was unsatisfied by this answer, but Uru had no other for her and so continued his journey.

      Soon he was stopped by a man who called out to him, "Uru, Uru! Please help me! My ears are asleep, so I cannot hear." Uru awakened the man's ears and turned to continue his journey, but the man stopped him, saying, "I thank you, Uru, for awakening my ears, but before you leave you must finish the task and tell me what to listen to."

      After a moment's thought, Uru said, "Listen to what seems relevant to you. Listen to what you need to hear. Listen to what pleases you and excites you. Use all your faculties to awaken others as I've awakened you."

      "Yes," the man said, "But can't you be more specific than that?"

      "How can I know what seems relevant to you? How can I know what you need to hear? How can I know what pleases and excites you?" The man was unsatisfied by this answer, but Uru had no other for him and so continued his journey.

      Soon he was stopped by a woman who called out to him, "Uru, Uru! Please help me! My hands are asleep, so I cannot make anything. Uru awakened the woman's hands and turned to continue his journey, but the woman stopped him, saying, "I thank you, Uru, for awakening my hands, but before you leave you must finish the task and tell me what to make."

      After a moment's thought, Uru said, "Make what's needed around you. Make what you make best. Make what others cannot make. Use all your faculties to awaken others as I've awakened you."

      "Yes," the woman said, "But can't you be more specific than that?"

      "How can I know what is needed around you? How can I know what you make best? How can I know what you make that others cannot make?" The woman was unsatisfied by this answer, but Uru had no other answer for her and so continued his journey.

      Soon he was stopped by a man who called out to him, "Uru, Uru! Please help me! My mind is asleep, so I cannot think." Uru awakened the man's mind and turned to continue his journey, but the man stopped him, saying, "I thank you, Uru, for awakening my mind, but before you leave you must finish the task and tell me how I should use it."

      After a moment's thought, Uru said, "Use it to think about what's going on around you. Use it to solve the problems you and your neighbors face, and especially use it to awaken others as I've awakened you."

      "Yes," the man said, "But can't you be more specific than that?"

      "How can I know what's going around you that you need to think about? How can I know what problems you and your neighbors face?" The man was unsatisfied by this answer, but Uru had no other answer for him and so continued his journey, at last passing out of the Valley of Sleepers and leaving it behind.

      Despite Uru's visit, however, this land continued to be known as the Valley of Sleepers, because nothing changed there. All its faculties---eyes, voices, ears, hands, and minds---were now awake, but it was still a land where no one saw, no one spoke, no one heard, no one made, and no one thought.

      But one day a young woman who used the valley as an occasional shortcut noticed something new---a statue, easily recognized as a likeness of Uru. When a valley resident trudged by, she stopped him to enquire about it.

      "Elsewhere in the world," she said, "Uru is known as the Awakener. But I see from the nameplate on this statue that you call him something else. Why is that?"

      "Oh, Uru created quite a commotion," said the somnambulist, "He woke us up and got us all excited for a while. But then he just turned his back on us and walked away. We don't know If he ever had a plan, but if he did, he refused to share it with us. He just got us stirred up, then left us in the lurch, and that's a fact. And this is why, among us, Uru the Awakener is known as Uru the Disappointer."


      So, who is the awakener?                                                                daniel quinn
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: piolet on October 11, 2006, 05:05:31 PM
Two guys walk into a bar, separately, and have a seat at the bar.

One guy notices the other has a black eye, just like himself.

 Hey buddy, how,d you get your shiner?

 Well, I was at the train station, and the ticket girl was hot. And instead of two tickets to Pittsburg, I slipped up and said ‘two PICKets to TITTsburg, and she hit me square in the face. How about you? How,d you get yours?

 Something similar actaully! I was just having dinner with my wife, and what I MEANT to say was, ‘Honey, can you please pass the peas?, But I slipped up and said  You fucking bitch you ruined my life!
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: gags on October 11, 2006, 06:10:25 PM
I don't know who is the awakener, but I just woke up after falling asleep from reading the longest story the forum has ever seen.  I like the blackeye joke a lot more.  I thought we were talking about bolts.  Do we need these long stories as metaphors for how we feel or can we just say it in plain english?  We are ruining the cliff by bolting, chopping and rebolting.  The cycle may continue.  Most of us in the climbing community are quite progressive and are angered by the fact that man has effected the future of our water, animals, air, soils and forests in a very short period of time.  As a climbing community in North Conway, we have only ourselves to blame for ruining the rock for future generations.  I always thought the climbing community was made up of a population smarter than the population as a whole.  Maybe I was wrong and maybe it is just human nature to be selfish and to think one's opinion is somehow worth more than an entire community's.

gags
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: the_other_andy on October 11, 2006, 08:19:18 PM
Sorry Beaner, the jesus thing never happened.

I do like the stories, keep em coming.


How many climbers does it take to screw in a light bulb........

10.......... 1 to screw it in while the rest sit around and talk shit about bolts.

Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on October 11, 2006, 08:29:44 PM
I've tried to stay out of this but IMNSHO this is pointless. if this doesn't come back around to climbing & not what would appear to be mind-altered ramblings I will shut it off.

Dale, consider yourself fore-warned!

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: johnnyh on October 11, 2006, 09:10:12 PM

Not entirely pointless - such threads serve as a historical record with all the strata exposed to see.  I base my opinions on information, and the persuasiveness of people's arguments; it's valuable to see them all juxtaposed. 

So, if you want to argue your position I'm all ears, but if you screw it up with offensive rantings you ultimately discredit yourself, not to mention that it can reflect badly on the cause you're so passionate about.   

Who wants non-climbers managing the cliffs for us if our egos prevent us from doing the job ourselves? 

John
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: gags on October 12, 2006, 12:01:40 PM
I want non-climbers to manage this cliff if we can't do it ourselves.  The preservation of the rock is the most important thing.  We are conserned about routes, they are conserned about the cliff and the integrity of its beauty.  I have already mentioned it once that I would not be opposed to seeing the State Park Department regulate Cathedral and hand out sizable fines for those who take it upon themselves to bolt or chop.  A permit should be applied for and everything else would be considered vandalism.

gags
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on October 12, 2006, 12:37:26 PM
Gags. i think that you may be off base there. The last thing you want is non climbers regulateing the cliff. they can and have regulated us right out of climbing........
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: JBro on October 12, 2006, 12:52:30 PM
Quote
We are conserned about routes, they are conserned about the cliff and the integrity of its beauty.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Land managers often times seem more interested in generating $$$ than protecting the cliffs and environment. While they might try and prevent us from placing a bolt or leaving a rap sling in the name of "protecting the environment," they're often simultaneously building hotels, roads, and campgrounds.

I'm not speaking specifically about Cathedral Ledge, just in general.

(Edit for grammar.)
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: JBro on October 12, 2006, 01:02:53 PM
Quote
Anyway i am going to court for this and I admitted to doing it and im taking resposability for my actions. Ill probably get fined and thats that. I have been talking to the state and am working on so closure to this situation. I believe it may soon be just as much of a crime to place bolts as remove them.The state geological society, Is interested in this situation as well.If i lose its okay. you all lose.

If this is actually true, it's very bad news indeed.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Dave on October 12, 2006, 03:28:08 PM
"I believe it may soon be just as much of a crime to place bolts as to remove them. The state geological society is interested in this situation as well. If I lose it's ok. You all lose"    Quote from Dale

This one line sums up what a moron he is. Just what we need, state regulation of climbing. The government can't do anything now without f*****g it up!
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on October 12, 2006, 09:11:28 PM
"If i lose its okay. you all lose."

so, if he can't have it HIS way, then he will do his best to make it so everyone will loose! I guess this goes hand in hand with those who chop bolts on new routes where there was no possibility of a trad ascent. this is SO much like religion.

oh my...

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: GOD on October 12, 2006, 09:22:36 PM
The bolts are not related to religion, please keep it that way! (I would know.)  Dale, stop using metaphors incorrectly.  And learn these words;   be misled, be overcritical, be partial, be unfair, be wrong, dogmatize, err, misapprehend, miscalculate, miscomprehend, misconceive, misconjecture, misconstrue, misdeem, misreckon, mistake, misthink, misunderstand, overestimate, overrate, prejudge, presume, presuppose, stumble, suppose, underestimate, underrate.
I will speak again when the cow craters on the moon........
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: climbhigh on October 12, 2006, 11:29:55 PM
Al just my 2 cents but I would vote to shut this down. This is going no where good. Jim
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: beaner on October 19, 2006, 03:18:25 PM
If someone hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: slobmonster on October 20, 2006, 04:21:25 AM
If someone hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also.
Dale, my former friend, what else is there to say? 

Please do us all a favor and once the verdict comes down, take the f*cking hint.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Dave on October 20, 2006, 08:54:42 AM
I just hope that the judge decides to slap Dale around and not take out his stupidity on the rest of the climbing community! Dave
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: gags on October 27, 2006, 07:28:37 PM
Dale,
I think most of us agree with you about the wrongs of the world.  You are not the only one who sees the hypocracy of the religious right in this country exploiting x-mas for the economy, selling arms and waging war while at the same time praying to God.  This is what makes the climbing community as a whole democrats.  Make sure to vote on Nov. 7th.  Your passion seems to be all consuming and somewhat unhealthy, trust me I've been there hating the world the same way you do, but you're not going to change it.  Some things are uncontrolable.  It is not worth going insane over these things and they have nothing to do with bolts on Cathedral Ledge.  Nobody wants to see Cathedral bolted to the max.  Nobody.  We need to find a balance.  Maybe we need someone like you to keep things in check, but I think we'd all be better off having you in agreement with the rest of the climbing community.  Your point has been made.  Let's stop the chopping, put the bolts back on the north end and stop putting in new routes or new bolts.  It is a reasonable compromise.

gags
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on October 27, 2006, 10:08:44 PM
Gags nice reply.

Dale you are an idiot.  The metaphors and quotes are a lame way to try and justify your selfish and destructive actions.

Bill
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on October 28, 2006, 12:12:10 PM
what is wrong with new rts if they are well thought out and good routs?
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Jeff on November 01, 2006, 02:09:31 PM
Unfortunately, Dale seems to think HIS stance is well thought out and a good one; another case of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. The problem is that there is nothing as dangerous as an idea, if, as it seems true with Dale, one has only ONE idea. God save us from the self-righteous who "know they have the right on their side". End of rant!
      I'm in favor of good new routes going in, even if they're too hard for me or need the occasional bolt to avoid the X rating. My wife and daughter don't like me to "push the boat out" anymore (grin).  Jeff Lea
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: dominic7 on November 02, 2006, 11:56:56 AM
So when are the bolts going back in? I did Bird's Nest and They Died on Tuesday and not only were the bolts still gone, someone had filled in the bolt holes with cement and sprinkled and pressed little pebbles on the cement all pretty like. I'm wondering what the protocol is for replacing these. E.g. who would do it? Would sanctified Henry Barber urine need to be sprinkled on them? Would persons of uniform need to be notified/consulted?
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: SCUD on November 02, 2006, 02:42:45 PM
Anyone caught drilling holes on established routes should be charged with defacing state property or whatever the statute was that they used against Dale.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: dominic7 on November 02, 2006, 04:22:47 PM
Anyone caught drilling holes on established routes should be charged with defacing state property or whatever the statute was that they used against Dale.

Isn't that akin to saying "Anyone caught removing graffitti should be charged under the laws that prohibit graffiti"?
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on November 02, 2006, 04:40:52 PM
Anyone caught drilling holes on established routes should be charged with defacing state property or whatever the statute was that they used against Dale.

so, are you saying that you think that the anchors at the top of the North End slabs should NOT be replaced?

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: dominic7 on November 02, 2006, 05:03:23 PM
so, are you saying that you think that the anchors at the top of the North End slabs should NOT be replaced?

--al

It depends on if you see the bolts as vandalism or the removal of them as vandalism.

I've only been climbing for a few years so my opinion shouldn't count for much. FWIW, the bolts were there when I started climbing so it makes sense (to me) for them to be replaced. But that is a silly way to determine whether bolts should stay or go since everyone would have a different opinion.

It sounded like the consensus at that meeting was that the bolting and chopping was all going to stop. So it's not clear to me why bolts that get chopped aren't being immediately replaced just on principle. I'd do it but I don't know how and would probably make a hash of it. Is it a problem of money? I'd certainly be happy to pay for the hardware.

Its not like it was a big deal building anchors at the North End, but the "check out my big ethics" attitude rubs me the wrong way.

Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: DLottmann on November 02, 2006, 06:47:12 PM
So it's not clear to me why bolts that get chopped aren't being immediately replaced just on principle.

It's not a money issue, I think those who would put them back may be hesitent if they thought they would get chopped for a 3rd time.  Bolt/chop/bolt/chop = no one wins and the rock loses... so we are making do without them for now...

Maybe next Spring....
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: dominic7 on November 03, 2006, 12:03:10 AM
Maybe next Spring....

Do bolt chopping activities die down in the spring or something?

It seems more a matter of principle than a matter of timing.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: sielickip on November 03, 2006, 07:58:54 AM
I think what Dman was saying was since it's late fall, start sharpening your tools and screws cause the ice is a'comin' !
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: DLottmann on November 03, 2006, 11:50:01 AM
Do bolt chopping activities die down in the spring or something?

one can hope...
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: OtisHo on November 09, 2006, 02:44:44 PM
Is it true that Brad White of IME Climbing School, after discussing it with some of his friends decided that he would lead the charge to have the bolt chopper arrested? Forget about the financial conflict of interest. I guess the government is now involved, we can look forward to restrictive regulations. I think this is a decidedly stupid move especially form a supposed leader of the climbing community. 

Perhaps the state will decide that too many climbers are ruining the ecosystem of the cliff and we need to limit the daily users. I would vote that the first thing done is to limit the amount of guide days allowed. The schools can figure out who gets what.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 09, 2006, 06:09:55 PM
regardless of who it was who brought this issue into the legal system that was most likly not a smart move???  Could possibly open pandoras box?
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on November 09, 2006, 06:57:33 PM
Is it true that Brad White of IME Climbing School, after discussing it with some of his friends decided that he would lead the charge to have the bolt chopper arrested? Forget about the financial conflict of interest. I guess the government is now involved, we can look forward to restrictive regulations. I think this is a decidedly stupid move especially form a supposed leader of the climbing community.

"Otis", or whoever you are... I don't think that is true. if you look thru these posts you should notice that it was the Echo Lake Park ranger who first talked about this & I would imagine is who instigated the action.

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 09, 2006, 09:26:02 PM
Hopefully it will work out ok.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: johnytrad on November 16, 2006, 12:57:35 PM
It was  Brad who made the complaint and Eric Nelson who brought Dale to court. This action could have a far worse effect on the climbing community in MWV than any of the bolts that have been chopped. Many folks think that the real vandals are the people adding bolts to routes that never had them. Either way, we should be discussing it among ourselves and not getting the courts involved. This has happened elsewhere and bolting has been banned completly. We have it pretty good here, we are free to guide, bolt and chop as we see fit. Lets keep it that way.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on November 16, 2006, 03:24:38 PM
FWIW there WAS a lot of discussion about bolting & chopping before Dale's actions took place. numerous small and one large meeting 3 summers ago. there are those of us who believe that a consensus was reached, at the very least about leaving the North End alone. obviously that was not respected and now there can be no expection that people like Dale or Josh Hurst will respect those understandings in the future. (FWIW Josh is who chopped the bolts on Dave Sharette's route on the Crack In The Woods crag a couple of years ago.)

so, just how much more "discussing it among ourselves" do you think is warrented here?

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on November 16, 2006, 06:55:03 PM
So who did Coffin Nail? 
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: honus on November 16, 2006, 10:22:39 PM
so, just how much more "discussing it among ourselves" do you think is warrented here?

--al

   Maybe this is the time to make a North Conway Climbers Coalition. There are a lot of high profile areas with groups like these with an elected board of directors who are responsible for dealing with issues that arise in a particular area. I'm not a good historian, so something like this may have been formed before, but it didn't stick around for long enough apparently. The informal self governance that has been going on for the last few years with meetings and small gatherings clearly hasn't been a good enough way of dealing with the problems at the crags in the North Conway area. Just think, if it's something that is well advertised online, at the local shops and hangouts, even the Boston gyms, we could get a pretty good cross section of people who come here to climb. If there are clear guidelines set down for future route development, as well as current route maintenance, maybe some of the constant bickering and bolt chopping will go away.

These things don't take care of themselves, obviously. It seems that the best hope for a stress free future at our cliffs will be slightly more organized and democratic self-governance.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on November 16, 2006, 10:32:57 PM
Maybe this is the time to make a North Conway Climbers Coalition.

...SNIP...

These things don't take care of themselves, obviously. It seems that the best hope for a stress free future at our cliffs will be slightly more organized and democratic self-governance.

the inherent problem here is that are people like Dale & Josh who simply obviously will not abide by any kind of agreement. you can put together any kind of group you like, but if people are not willing to be bound by consensus, it won't matter.

it is easy to forget that the motto of our wonderful state is "Live Free Or Die." many take that to mean that no one can tell them what to do. I don't meant to sound pessimistic, but after observing what has gone on in the area over the past 15 years, I have am not optimistic that this is going to change. after all, if Dale or someone like him can sit in a meeting where what I percieved was a majority of people agreed that the North End bolts would be left alone, and still decide to wreak havoc, what can you do? there are few options left other than resorting to legal or violent means to address the issue, neither of which am I advocating BTW.

<sigh>

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Abe Barker on November 16, 2006, 10:53:06 PM
Control Freaks
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: climbhigh on November 16, 2006, 11:11:08 PM
My understanding is that dale was fined and payed the fine. I later learned that a collection was taken up for him so he was not out of pocket any money. I am wondering what the contributors to this fund were thinking? Has a lesson been learned? Will bolts still be chopped? and when legal action is taken what message is given to the chopper if he is reimbursed by a select few? Am I missing the point? or are Dale's actions really approved by a silent majority? :-\
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on November 16, 2006, 11:23:29 PM
My understanding is that dale was fined and payed the fine. I later learned that a collection was taken up for him so he was not out of pocket any money.

why am I not surprised?

are Dale's actions really approved by a silent majority?

most assuredly.

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: johnytrad on November 17, 2006, 04:19:10 AM
Dale's actions MIGHT be supported by a VERY few people but he is NOT supported by a silent majority. Dale's actions went directly against what the community decided at the bolt meetings, but this is still not a good enough reason to bring this issue into court. Even the majority of the folks that are against retrobolting established routes do not support Dale's actions. But lets face it, Dale is an easy target and there has been more than enough insults directed at him. My understanding of why those folks decided to pay Dale's court costs was not to show support for his bolt chopping, but more to show how much they were against Eric brining this issue into the court.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: climbhigh on November 17, 2006, 11:29:43 AM
Did Dale give Eric any choice? How many times did he have to be told that his actions were not appropriate, by a wide gamit of people. I know that if Dale took different actions to support his cause he would have had more support. I would hope ??? that Dale learned a lesson eventhough his fines were paid.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: punxnotdead on November 18, 2006, 08:22:41 AM
Dale should have paid for his stupidness by himself.  I cant believe that others raised money to help him out?

Hypocrisy reigns supreme...................................................


btw- I still want to know who or why Coffin Nail was destroyed.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: SCUD on November 18, 2006, 10:11:19 AM
My understanding of why those folks decided to pay Dale's court costs was not to show support for his bolt chopping, but more to show how much they were against Eric brining this issue into the court.

The reason the collection for Dale's court costs was taken up is essentially what you have stated. The contributors were all climbers with a tremendous love & dedication to the sport of climbing, so much so that we felt the actions of the Echo Lake Park ranger were far more deleterious to the sport than Dale's actions. The damage done by taking legal action against a climbing participant has far reaching consequences which will be very difficult to mend. This was certainly not the way to maintain peaceful coexistence.

Not surprisingly, a large number of the contributors to the fund did not approve whatsoever of the chopping.



Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on November 18, 2006, 08:03:22 PM
This was certainly not the way to maintain peaceful coexistence.

with all due respect...what Dale did was not the way to maintain peaceful coexistance!

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: SCUD on November 18, 2006, 10:16:36 PM
Dale's act did not help to maintain a peaceful coexistence. What the Park Ranger did was even worse.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: climbhigh on November 18, 2006, 10:47:54 PM
I would have to strongly disagree that Eric's actions were worse than Dale's in maintaining a peaceful coexistence. If a person does something as Dale did against what rule was established, no further bolting or chopping, then that person should be held accountable. I am hoping that Eric's actions will send a clear message to others that damage to the rock can not be tolerated. If Eric is consistant in his actions then why would the message not be heard. Jim
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: johnytrad on November 19, 2006, 09:51:07 AM
I am hoping that Dale's actions send a clear message to others that adding bolts to EXISTING routes that never had them is damaging the rock and will not be tolerated. If people are consistant in their actions then why would the message not be heard.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: Admin Al on November 19, 2006, 10:44:46 AM
adding bolts to EXISTING routes that never had them is damaging the rock and will not be tolerated.

1) so in what way is what Dale did NOT damaging the rock MORE than the anchors?

2) to my memory there was a very clear agreement that the bolt anchors at the top of Child's Play and the anchors above They Died Laughing were to be allowed and left alone.

--al
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: tradmanclimbz on November 19, 2006, 11:22:54 AM
Another interesting note is that Bayard one of the past choppers is putting up new rts with bolts and recently reported a new rt with a bolted anchor on cathedral. The hypocricy of most bolt choppers never ceses to amaze me ::)
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: dominic7 on November 19, 2006, 01:46:17 PM
So the question still remains, who will replace the bolts that were removed and when? When the bolts were removed from Thin Air people pissed and moaned but they never got replaced. Certainly the folks doing the bolt removal are very motivated and committed to what they think is right. I guess I'm wondering if the same thing is true of the people on the other side of the argument. Or are we in a situation where the tyranny of the radical few will define the reality of the situation?
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: T_Moon on November 19, 2006, 07:31:16 PM
Or are we in a situation where the tyranny of the radical few will define the reality of the situation?

I think that is a good description of the current situation.  >:( 

That is how it will stay until the "radical few" are willing to come to terms with the larger climbing community or the landowner (NH Parks) steps in and makes some binding rules --- in which case the cure would probably be worse than the problem.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: bag11s on November 19, 2006, 11:25:49 PM
This thread is the most redundant, pissy, stoopid, petty, brainless, and boring work of collected drivel I have ever been dim witted enough to wade through. The only logical conclusion one can draw from all this horseshit is that the entire two month dialogue is actually a work of cynical cleverness written by a union of scheming and industrious munchkins all working mightily to convince non-locals never to climb in North Conway, so that you can have it all to your short statured selves.

If that is the case, I,d say you,ve achieved unqualified success.

If, on the other hand, central casting hasn,t coordinated this whole thing, then shame on you all. Surely some of you must have reflected on how all that vented heat from under the collar has boiled away any original sense you may have had in your assorted diminutive noggins.

Fortunately, within a smidgeon of geologic time, the entire crag will be modified by natural erosion processes, in such a way that future generations will no longer be able to use it as a climbing resource. At least some kind of peace may be able to reign in that happy future.
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: oldsock on November 21, 2006, 08:43:43 AM
my experience over the last 30+ years has been that the climbers in the mwv are a friendly and opinionated bunch. many are dedicated to preserving the climbs as they were originally done.new routes are another story.
most of the drivel and nastiness i've seen has been here in cyberspace not in the community. 
SCUD is on track re why dale was helped out .
Title: Re: They Died...but not laughing
Post by: slobmonster on November 21, 2006, 01:22:05 PM
Dale's act did not help to maintain a peaceful coexistence. What the Park Ranger did was even worse.
You know, you can't have it both ways.  Given that this "community" is so flexible as to ignore its mandates, it's not a surprise --to me, at least-- that the one person charged --in his job description-- wth preservation of Cathedral Ledge has stepped in, and potentially kicked the bureaucratic ball down the hill. 

Did any of you really think the gov'mnt would (or could) ignore this absurdity forever?  "They" really do wait till it's clear that the community can't take care of itself.