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General => Beginners Area => Topic started by: mechanicalchris on May 14, 2012, 11:03:18 AM

Title: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 14, 2012, 11:03:18 AM
At some point we're going to try a 3 person ascent of White Horse via Standard Route. We have two 8.5mm half ropes and one 10.3 single.

My concern is that managing 3 ropes on every pitch is going to get messy, be really heavy, back-up the route and potentially expose us to more objective hazards because it will likely add significant time to the climb. Is it safe to second Standard on a single half rope?

What comes to mind is two conflicting ideas: 

"No, half-ropes are meant to be used together by clipping gear alternate and therefore it is assumed that the second should be brought up on both half ropes." but alternatively "Each half rope is rated for 6-16 full leader falls and seconding with no slack on a slab like White Horse could not come close to achieving the force needed to snap a half rope."
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 14, 2012, 11:28:07 AM
Use the two ropes and have your seconds simulclimb...saves a ton of time!  ;)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 14, 2012, 11:43:35 AM
Thanks Grammy, you've helped us so much over the year.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: frik on May 14, 2012, 12:14:49 PM
Ya that route is fine for thin ropes - even leader falls wouldn't generate much force.
Also to avoid backups, start early - nothing seems to happen "alpine" in that valley so 7:30 is plenty early.
And don't bring any packs - just tie your sneakers to the back of your harness.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 14, 2012, 01:04:25 PM
Chris, Just make sure that you have a belay device that has the option to use as an autoblock off the anchor and that you can use it with two ropes such as the ATC Guide, Reverso 3, Trango B-52, Mammut Smart Alpine, etc...and definitely understand how the system works prior to the climb. It is not difficult to understand or master, but it is a little different and lowering with them can be a flipping nightmare...just take an afternoon in the back yard, and practice getting the systems wired...you will be fine!  :)
~g
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 14, 2012, 02:20:27 PM
...
And don't bring any packs - just tie your sneakers to the back of your harness.

This I gotta disagree with. A tiny pack with 1) windbreaker 2) water & snacks can make all the difference in comfort on a 7 pitch climb. A tiny headlamp should live with you IMO... nothing more embarrassing then getting caught without one... If you can't lead 5.7 slab with an 8 pound pack on... well... you shouldn't be leading... Seen quite a few dehydrated hungry chilly people 5 pitches up with thier backpacks stashed at the bottom. It's slab climbing... a tiny backpack won't slow you down.

And a carabiner through the bottom lace of the shoes will ensure your shoes are still with you at the top and is quicker than tying them to your harness :)

With enough experience & technique a 3 person party can climb Whitehorse faster than the average 2 person party. What slows people down when belaying 2 seconds is not being able to take in slack fast enough on both ropes through a high friction belay device like a Reverso (I love the Trango Cinch for this). If I'm climbing with two people who know how to second slab (i.e. climb fast) I prefer to lead on 1 rope and belay them up individually... this is only faster IF they climb slab fast. I.E. stand up and walk up all the 5.3-5.4 bits... they should only climb slow at the cruxes... Even beginners can climb slab fast if instructed to stand up and climb vrs. slowly crawling their way up 5.3. I'll routinely be behind 2 person recreational parties with 2-3 new clients and still have to wait.

Also move rope efficiently... have your seconds help out at the anchor to quickly re-organize. Slow parties usually lose the most time at transitions (belays) exchanging gear, re-stacking the rope, etc. If the route doesn't traverse have the 1st second clean most the gear. You can be pretty much re-organized and ready to leave the belay by the time the 3rd climber arrives, even if he is only 30 feet behind the 2nd climber.

"Alpine Climbing" by Mark Houston has some great speed tips that carry over when to moving efficiently on multi-pitch trad. Also a guided day with a qualified guide focused on improving your efficiency leading multi-pitch routes can open your eyes to some ways to save time.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 14, 2012, 03:14:14 PM
Thanks for all the great advice. We've got a little system dialed in (still always improving of course). This past Sunday we achieved a long term goal when we finally took White Horse on our own. Hard to believe what an incredible year its been.

We certainly owe a lot to the experienced climbers that have taken the time to share advice, there are a couple in particular who we've learned so much in the field from, they know who they are.

http://postimage.org/image/framcwuxz/
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: eyebolter on May 14, 2012, 06:32:10 PM

Also to avoid backups, start early - nothing seems to happen "alpine" in that valley so 7:30 is plenty early.


Good advice, but starting after 2 or so is equally good and the route will be in the shade.  Of course when I first diid it at 17 I was up early and on the route by 8...

Congrats on doing it three man, it is one of the great multi-pitches in the Northeast.

Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 14, 2012, 07:55:49 PM
My concern is that managing 3 ropes on every pitch is going to get messy, be really heavy, back-up the route and potentially expose us to more objective hazards because it will likely add significant time to the climb. Is it safe to second Standard on a single half rope?

What comes to mind is two conflicting ideas: 

"No, half-ropes are meant to be used together by clipping gear alternate and therefore it is assumed that the second should be brought up on both half ropes." but alternatively "Each half rope is rated for 6-16 full leader falls and seconding with no slack on a slab like White Horse could not come close to achieving the force needed to snap a half rope."

peronally, I would choose one 10.2 mm rope and one half rope. Your goal is-it to climb fast? to be able to climb efficiently and do a route like vmc direct in few years, I think that it is better to try it with one 10.2 between the first and second and a 8.5 between the second and third. Managing the rope is some thing difficult. I met one guy who really had a good rope managment and I climbed with many climber. he was fast, clean and every thing wa ready for the next pitch.

As a threat in the beginer section, i will sugest to put more attention to the team works than on how many or few rope you can bring up the cliff. Don't bring water if you want, it could be a test. next time you will bring at least water. I assume that you are climbing at white horse ledge and not white horse, which is only three pitches. I climbed it in 45 minutes and i can take three hours with most of my partner. In general, a time of 1h30 for a pitch is normal. If you climb slower than that, maybe your team is not ready. Faster could mean that the route is too easy. don't be foulish, you learn on easy grade three and four. If you make a mistake, you can still recover or avoid a fall. if you walk on the 5.3 and 5.4 section, you will learn how dangerous is a slab in section of 5.6 or 5.7...or, if you are off route (and on a slab it can happen) on more dangerous terrain. Learn to move efficiently and to find the easier way even on easy ground. It will take the same time, but you will be ready for sliding board after.   
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 14, 2012, 10:19:41 PM
My concern is that managing 3 ropes on every pitch is going to get messy, be really heavy, back-up the route and potentially expose us to more objective hazards because it will likely add significant time to the climb. Is it safe to second Standard on a single half rope?

What comes to mind is two conflicting ideas: 

"No, half-ropes are meant to be used together by clipping gear alternate and therefore it is assumed that the second should be brought up on both half ropes." but alternatively "Each half rope is rated for 6-16 full leader falls and seconding with no slack on a slab like White Horse could not come close to achieving the force needed to snap a half rope."

 In general, a time of 1h30 for a pitch is normal.

What pitch on Standard Route on Whitehorse takes 1h30, other than maybe an onsight of the notorious Brown Spot or 5.7 variation?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 15, 2012, 06:59:34 AM
What pitch on Standard Route on Whitehorse takes 1h30, other than maybe an onsight of the notorious Brown Spot or 5.7 variation?

I didn't say that a pitch took 1h30 as I did the cliff in 45 minutes on a similar routes, just before the thunderstorm...I was with a very good climber and both of us were fast on the slab.

1h30 means 45 minutes for the leader to finish the route. The energy in the muscle is burn in 45 minutes. after you have to take a rest for the liver to bring more energy to the muscle (it is a vulgarisation).  If you climb in 45 minutes and set the belay in fifteen minutes, your second have 30 minutes to climb the route. In general, they climb in 20 minutes. so, with a third person, it can take 1 hours and 40 minutes per pitch.

Longer than 45 minutes to lead a pitch, it is not fun for the belayer. shorter mean that you are not chalenging yourself. It is true that slab climbing is fast as we don't have a lot of pro to place and we must be carefull. but time is a good indication of our level to climb safe. 

 
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 15, 2012, 07:55:14 AM
Summer belay should not take more than 2 or 3 min to set up.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: frik on May 15, 2012, 08:18:21 AM
Ok... waiting for champ to pull out a logarithmic scale plotting the standard deviations for "belay set up times" against
seasonal variations.

Also, don't now about anyone else, but: "The energy in the muscle is burn in 45 minute." is so not true for me!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 15, 2012, 08:33:19 AM
Heck, I flame out in about 10 min :-[
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 15, 2012, 09:10:26 AM
We did the 5.7 variation. We Started at 7AM and topped out at 2PM. We probably spent an hour at Lunch Ledge chatting and let another team pass us. 

In retrospect I think its pretty well protected between the bolt at the crux and the piton at the right-facing corner. Rope drag on the other hand was nuts. I carry a lot of extensions (I have 6 alpine draws and a nylon runner). I was walking up the ramp, I swung the corner, took the ledge and went back to the second tree to belay as we'd seen done. Incredible rope drag and Laura was nervous to boot, using the rope to aid her. Not having visual contact and already difficult to pull, at times I didn't know if I was fighting the drag or gravity. I bought an ascender on Monday.

I had always see people go to the tree to belay so I copied but in addition to insane drag, it puts you on course for the 5.6 to the upper slabs, which I thought was the most heady pitch of the day.

On my guide map it shows a gear anchor symbol way before the tree so I'm thinking people must build a gear anchor on the actual ramp which must reduce rope drag and puts you on course for a much easier route up.

I'm surprised there's no belay stations at the end of the 5.7 pitch. Of course it can be done without, just would've seemed like a pair up on the ramp would speed up the bottleneck and avoid the ultra-drag others seem to experience as well by belaying back at the tree.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 15, 2012, 09:22:02 AM
Thatís decent timing, especially considering your extended siesta on Lunch Ledge. :)

As for the rope drag on that pitch it isnít bad at all if you do it like this;

1) First piece right before you head left up to the 1st pin, shoulder length sling

2) Clip the pin with a shoulder sling

3) Bolt gets a regular quickdraw, make the move right and up to the next ramp. Next piece is a great nut just below the pin corner.

4) Shoulder sling on PIN... THIS IS THE MOST CRITICAL for managing the drag. After pulling the move and getting on the final ramp make sure you shake the rope to climbers left of the corner to keep it from falling into that crack. If you used a quick draw the rope will be bent sharply over the edge adding tons of drag. I see a lot of people fail right here...

5) Cam behind a flake, move up left facing corner to final move. If you place a cam on the final move before gaining the pine tree rap station you can reach down and clean it once youíve attached to the tree. Makes belaying 2nd a bit easier... I like to be just below the pine tree on the slab for easy communication and belay management while they are working through the 2 cruxes.

The above set up is 6 pieces of gear, all but one with shoulder length sling. From Lunch Ledge the rope runs straight, almost no drag.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 15, 2012, 09:26:37 AM
... I was walking up the ramp, I swung the corner, took the ledge and went back to the second tree to belay as we'd seen done. Incredible rope drag...

Did you go right after pulling the pin/corner move? If so thats part of the problem... go up and LEFT to get to the very visible pine...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 15, 2012, 09:40:51 AM
Thanks Dman. Shaking the rope to climbers left is something I will definitely try, it's a good point.

I followed what you said except I think I went to a pine tree that's a bit further back. I saw one on the corner but the roots seemed a bit exposed so I wasn't sure if it was a safe anchor. Are you talking about belaying from the tree who's roots you can grab to take the final ledge? Perhaps using a cordallette for an anchor, hopping back to the ramp, and belaying from their?   
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 15, 2012, 09:45:41 AM
You do grab the roots, and if itís the tree with multiple rap slings on it Iíd say itís quite solid. Of course you should inspect it at the time as things change. There is usually 2-3 good looking slings/cord tied to that tree. I inspect the knots and condition of the slings, and if they are good I just toss a locker on it, clove in, and yell off belay. Nothing wrong with using existing slings if there are a few of them and they look good. If in doubt whip out the cordelette. I do not step back down to the other slab, but stay in a semi-hanging belay stance just below the tree... itís pretty comfortable and when you lean back you can make eye contact with your belayer on Lunch Ledge... also facilitates belaying off the anchor rather than sitting up on the ledge above the tree...

While were spewing all the detailed beta Iíve found the easiest way to do the next pitch is to go straight up to the next pine, sling the fatty root that is exposed, then traverse slightly up and way left over to the Sliding Board Dike. Gain the fun little dike and climb up about 30-40 feet to a pin (easy to pass look for it), then no gear but chill climbing up and left to the next pine tree, at the far left of the overlap. There is a slightly scooped line slightly to climbers right that is easiest.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 15, 2012, 09:55:38 AM
Sounds fun, I love those kind of exposed belays. Beautiful view and it it stretches the calves. I use a PAS but I'm going to start doing a clove hitch to back it up. I trust the PAS but when I lean back I always feel like a little redundancy would help.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 15, 2012, 10:04:21 AM
Sounds fun, I love those kind of exposed belays. Beautiful view and it it stretches the calves. I use a PAS but I'm going to start doing a clove hitch to back it up. I trust the PAS but when I lean back I always feel like a little redundancy would help.

Get rid of the PAS and just use a clove hitch... a properly tied clove hitch needs no backup and is less clutter, and more adjustable than the PAS

Less is more in many situations in climbing... do not be redundant for the sake of redundancy...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: Jeff on May 15, 2012, 12:34:41 PM

"do not be redundant for the sake of redundancy" 

I agree with Dave here in spades! One of my mentors in guiding often says when setting up a belay anchor:  "More is not always safer, often it's just More" -- once it's bombproof, stop worrying--  I agree that a PAS is not bombproof, so I ONLY use one (actually a NYLON daisy chain) on aid; when free climbing for fun and/or guiding my dynamic ROPE is clove-hitched to the master point and I'm Off Belay 8)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 15, 2012, 02:06:20 PM
... I agree that a PAS is not bombproof, so I ONLY use one (actually a NYLON daisy chain) on aid; when free climbing for fun and/or guiding my dynamic ROPE is clove-hitched to the master point and I'm Off Belay 8)

Just to clarify I never said the PAS isn't bombproof. The gear itself is bombproof as each loop is full strength (vrs. a daisy chain, which as Jeff mentioned should ONLY be used for body-weight aid climbing and not your main anchor attachment.)

My reasoning behind getting rid of it is a simple clove hitch is faster, more adjustable, and just as secure/strong. The only place I see a PAS making sense is sport climbing, when you want to quickly attach to a double bolt anchor, untie, and thread to lower. But a regular quickdraw works just fine for this if you know how to properly thread a sport lower without completely untying...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 15, 2012, 02:08:51 PM
I also just made an edit to the directions in a post above, I had said after pulling the move at the last pin to go right. I meant go LEFT! Going right to that corner with the little pine in it gives you about a 90 degree bend in the rope. Go up and left to get to the pine that is easily identifiable from the base of the route.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 15, 2012, 02:23:29 PM
Interesting, non of the seasoned climbers seem to opt for the PAS although we go out on a limb for em (literally) Not sure if I could convince my climbing partner to ditch her PAS for the clove (can't get her to go for the traditional prusik over the heavy Shunt) but maybe if we start doing both we'll phase out the PAS.

I'm feeling the pain of the heavy load these days and even had a rude awakening when a dangling cam on my gear sling got stuck when I tried to take the ledge on Relic Hunter at Echo Roof 2 weeks ago. The sling is getting heavy/cumbersome; full C4 set (extra #1), tri cam set, stopper set, petzl shunt, tons of BD rock lockers, reverso 3, PAS, 6 alpine draws, a cordallette, two nylon runners and two half ropes (phew) a lot for this leader.

On the one hand I find myself being able to protect my routes better because I'm not having as many of those "I wish I had brought ...!!!!". On the other hand, my sore shoulder and neck were jealous when I saw a guy go whizzing by on a single half-rope with minimal pro.

To be fair I am the same guy that spent the night on Lost In The Sun for only bringing one rope; since July I've treaded on the 'just-in-case'  side of racking. I suppose the pendulum has swung too far the other way and over-time we'll figure out what we can do without as we gain experience.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 15, 2012, 02:53:31 PM
Summer belay should not take more than 2 or 3 min to set up.
if your are in fugue at canon, I had three different belay, each belay take the place of one nuts because they were weak and even with those...testing it was the last thing I want to do. In general, it most be fast, if you are climbing without previous knowledge in a cliff where five party did the route between 1975 and today, you won't even know where is the belay station and there will be no bolt or sling to say: hey it is here. Still good time as you freaking out and your partner find that you took too much time and was scarry as shit when he saw on what his life rely.

For the 45 minutes in the muscle, it I mostly for anaerobic lactique energy. of course a runner will be able to keep going for hours, but in halterophylie, the time where the energy is burned is very short (20 second) in a kind of reserve of energy that we use, it last for 45 minutes. It is also the time where the concentration begin to diminish. some times, it is faster to respect the rules of the 45 minutes to climb faster. Or preserve your energy. for my part, I prefer to rely on those rules to be able to climb onsight and have all the aspect of rock climbing, than to have some one telling me where to place my pro, to pee, to smile, etc.   

Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: frik on May 15, 2012, 03:11:46 PM
effing brilliant Champ.... a true master.
 
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 15, 2012, 04:20:33 PM
Ya, ya................
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 15, 2012, 04:21:50 PM
Interesting, non of the seasoned climbers seem to opt for the PAS although we go out on a limb for em (literally) Not sure if I could convince my climbing partner to ditch her PAS for the clove (can't get her to go for the traditional prusik over the heavy Shunt)...

Other than rigging to lower in sport climbing, name one advantage the PAS has over the clove? There really isnít a legitimate one, so her holding on to it without being able to explain why is silly. Same for carrying around a Shunt for recreational rock climbing. I would assume she doesnít understand how to properly use/create a prussik and lacks experience with it, so is finding a false sense of security by using the more expensive (and heavy) Shunt.

Shiny gear does not a safe climber make...

TBH, and disclaimer, I carried a Shunt around my 1st 2 seasons... that was quite awhile ago... itís still in my closet!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: Admin Al on May 15, 2012, 04:29:42 PM
the Shunt lives in my pack. I've used it a number of times in a wide variety of situations. sure a prussik works fine, but the Shunt is a different level of tool. YMMV
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 15, 2012, 05:53:10 PM
PAS is a good way to spend more money.  I can't think of a situation that I will need one given that I have the rope, quickdraw(s), and sling(s) with me when I get to an anchor.  Sure, if one is a sling short, a PAS (or the rope) can take its place.  But a PAS costs much more than a sling so why not get a sling and save some $$?
Sure, I know people who uses a PAS .... but I do not hold anything against them :)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 16, 2012, 09:49:06 AM
Sitting in the office practicing my clove. If you were on half ropes would you clove both? How about twins?

Excited to try the clove at the belay station partially because the PAS only extends a foot or two below the anchor and it seems that when taking up a second with auto-blocking, the further down the belayer, the easier it is to keep it tight (Second feels safer with constant tension... phew arm burn)

Just out of curiosity, we've seen a party of 3 do a half-pitch or less and the second guy goes onto the middle with a figure-8-on-a-bite with two-opposing biners... why not a clove?  So you'd trust a properly tied clove to hold them in a hanging position as the only point of contact while they belay? Do you attach the cloved biner to a rap ring? or would you ideally attach it to the same equalized anchor I'll be attaching the reverso to, since it uses both rap rings equalized? 
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: hobbsj on May 16, 2012, 09:52:19 AM
The energy in the muscle is burn in 45 minutes. after you have to take a rest for the liver to bring more energy to the muscle (it is a vulgarisation).

Wow, we never covered this concept in my coursework.  Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 16, 2012, 10:06:54 AM
Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DGoguen on May 16, 2012, 10:18:34 AM
you have to take a rest for the liver to bring more energy to the muscle

I'm believe my liver is already over extended.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: strandman on May 16, 2012, 10:19:37 AM
Sitting in the office practicing my clove. If you were on half ropes would you clove both? How about twins?

Excited to try the clove at the belay station partially because the PAS only extends a foot or two below the anchor and it seems that when taking up a second with auto-blocking, the further down the belayer, the easier it is to keep it tight (Second feels safer with constant tension... phew arm burn)

Just out of curiosity, we've seen a party of 3 do a half-pitch or less and the second guy goes onto the middle with a figure-8-on-a-bite with two-opposing biners... why not a clove?  So you'd trust a properly tied clove to hold them in a hanging position as the only point of contact while they belay? Do you attach the cloved biner to a rap ring? or would you ideally attach it to the same equalized anchor I'll be attaching the reverso to, since it uses both rap rings equalized?

I would not use a clove tie in the middle for a second, it can flop around and slip. Use a fig 8 instead.
Really try to anchor into the bolts/pins rather than the rings, stronger for sure. Are you belaying directly off the anchor ??? I prefer belaying THROUGH the anchor with the belay device on my harness.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 16, 2012, 10:20:10 AM
Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?

I think maybe he is talking about something like fast twitch vrs slow twitch muscle fibbers and powerful bursts of energy that require large amounts of strength vrs. longer more sustained efforts that burn fuel much more slow not requiring power lifter type strength but ultra runner endurance?

I am not sure exactly what he is saying as it is often hard to make sense of his posts. Add to that i also only know so much what i am talking about in regard to the subject about how the whole fast twitch vrs. slow twitch thing works. I do know powerful moves and bursts of intense power will empty the tank much more quickly than longer sustained efforts.

If we are using runners and cyclists as example look at sprinters vrs climbers or triathletes and ultra runners vrs. track and field runners.

Not supporting Champ just offering my to cents and maybe some perspective to a confusing statement on a topic that does interest me quite a bit.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: strandman on May 16, 2012, 10:23:56 AM
I'm kinda twitchy right now... maybe i need some acid    :-\
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 16, 2012, 10:31:36 AM
 8)
I'm kinda twitchy right now... maybe i need some acid    :-\

Normally it is not the acid that relieves my twitches ;)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 16, 2012, 10:43:07 AM
Along the PAS discussion, I just try to bring tools with me that serve multiple functions and so will girth hitch a double length runner through my harness. A simple overhand knot roughly midway up allows me to clip both the end and middle to my gear loop to keep it out of the way while climbing, and then it offers me a quick and solid method of anchoring in directly. The knot in the middle allows me to extend my belay device for rapelling, and it allows me to test the device prior to leaning back and dropping into oblivion due to an oversight. Once I feel the weight be taken by the rappel device, I simply unlock the biner at the anchor, and then lock it back into my belay loop for redundancy and to simply keep the tail out of the way. I can tie directly into the anchor or master point with either the figure 8 on a bight, or a clove (I use the clove 98% of the time) and then I have the double length sling for the next pitch...or to use for the anchor. the problem with the PAS is that is is dedicated to one job only really...so it is just another thing to drag up with you...thus the sore shoulders!

Just my 2 cents!

Good job getting after it bro!

~grammy
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 16, 2012, 11:07:57 AM
Along the PAS discussion, I just try to bring tools with me that serve multiple functions and so will girth hitch a double length runner through my harness. A simple overhand knot roughly midway up allows me to clip both the end and middle to my gear loop to keep it out of the way while climbing, and then it offers me a quick and solid method of anchoring in directly. The knot in the middle allows me to extend my belay device for rapelling, and it allows me to test the device prior to leaning back and dropping into oblivion due to an oversight. Once I feel the weight be taken by the rappel device, I simply unlock the biner at the anchor, and then lock it back into my belay loop for redundancy and to simply keep the tail out of the way. I can tie directly into the anchor or master point with either the figure 8 on a bight, or a clove (I use the clove 98% of the time) and then I have the double length sling for the next pitch...or to use for the anchor. the problem with the PAS is that is is dedicated to one job only really...so it is just another thing to drag up with you...thus the sore shoulders!

Just my 2 cents!

Good job getting after it bro!

~grammy

I do the same exact thing. Works like a charm and as you said is a multi function/purpose piece of gear.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: frik on May 16, 2012, 11:22:43 AM
Chris:
A clove hitch that isn't under tension (it doesn't need alot) can loosen up - then slip.  An 8 doesn't have that problem.
I'd say 90 % (ok Champ, 93.763%) of climbers use the clove hitch to tie into the anchor....

It's really ok, you won't die.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 16, 2012, 12:07:38 PM
Chris:
A clove hitch that isn't under tension (it doesn't need alot) can loosen up - then slip.  An 8 doesn't have that problem.

I have heard this but in 20+ years of climbing have never experienced that. An 8 will not loosen or back out correct....but try to readjust or lengthen that knot and it is a pain in the neck. I like how quickly you can adjust the clove to suit your needs. Just what I do...  ;)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: hobbsj on May 16, 2012, 01:24:08 PM
Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?

I think maybe he is talking about something like fast twitch vrs slow twitch muscle fibbers and powerful bursts of energy that require large amounts of strength vrs. longer more sustained efforts that burn fuel much more slow not requiring power lifter type strength but ultra runner endurance?

I am not sure exactly what he is saying as it is often hard to make sense of his posts. Add to that i also only know so much what i am talking about in regard to the subject about how the whole fast twitch vrs. slow twitch thing works. I do know powerful moves and bursts of intense power will empty the tank much more quickly than longer sustained efforts.

If we are using runners and cyclists as example look at sprinters vrs climbers or triathletes and ultra runners vrs. track and field runners.

Not supporting Champ just offering my to cents and maybe some perspective to a confusing statement on a topic that does interest me quite a bit.

The 45 minutes would automatically make it more of an endurance deal.  The power moves zap your muscles storage in a matter of seconds due to the ATP-CP energy system which is replenished at a reasonable rate dependent on exercise intensity.  But even then its a stretch to say it comes from the liver.  Yes the lever holds around 1500kcal of glycogen, but it isn't necessarily responsible for replenishing the muscles on its own.  Plus with a 45 minute exercise bout, energy is coming from other systems too including non-working muscles releasing lactate for further breakdown. All in all, the faster twitch muscles are good for a few minutes before you get bogged down.  But, repetitive moves using the same muscle groups cause a movement to become more aerobic with repeated bouts. A really odd fact is that with training, your fast twitch muscles start to take on traits of slower twitch muscles.  It is fair to equate sprinters to climbers (more like milers for sport climbing).  But, the whole 45 minute deal with the liver is way off.  And at that point, you are relying a lot on "slow twitch" fibers.  You, Pat, of all people have seen me quaking up and down in the same 3 moves for a lot longer than 45 minutes.  That is some very aerobic trembling going on :-)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 16, 2012, 02:03:36 PM
Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?

I think maybe he is talking about something like fast twitch vrs slow twitch muscle fibbers and powerful bursts of energy that require large amounts of strength vrs. longer more sustained efforts that burn fuel much more slow not requiring power lifter type strength but ultra runner endurance?

It is a reference to the krebs cycle and lactique/alactique chemical. 45 minutes, it is a mean. The muscle have a quantity of energy that we can use, like the tank of a car. You have to full it. One example is went your arm is pump because there is too much pyruvate in your muscle. You rest a little and can climb after. Red and white muscle (fast and slow twich) is more a relation between the blood irrigation of the muscle cell. As more blood you have, easier is it to make aerobic exercise.

The theory is very complex. For example, a complex molecule of glucose (don't remember the name) can be linear or non linear in the muscle due to the acidity of the muscle after a quantity of work. I can't explain every thing here.     
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 16, 2012, 02:24:17 PM
Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?

I think maybe he is talking about something like fast twitch vrs slow twitch muscle fibbers and powerful bursts of energy that require large amounts of strength vrs. longer more sustained efforts that burn fuel much more slow not requiring power lifter type strength but ultra runner endurance?

I am not sure exactly what he is saying as it is often hard to make sense of his posts. Add to that i also only know so much what i am talking about in regard to the subject about how the whole fast twitch vrs. slow twitch thing works. I do know powerful moves and bursts of intense power will empty the tank much more quickly than longer sustained efforts.

If we are using runners and cyclists as example look at sprinters vrs climbers or triathletes and ultra runners vrs. track and field runners.

Not supporting Champ just offering my to cents and maybe some perspective to a confusing statement on a topic that does interest me quite a bit.

The 45 minutes would automatically make it more of an endurance deal.  The power moves zap your muscles storage in a matter of seconds due to the ATP-CP energy system which is replenished at a reasonable rate dependent on exercise intensity.  But even then its a stretch to say it comes from the liver.  Yes the lever holds around 1500kcal of glycogen, but it isn't necessarily responsible for replenishing the muscles on its own.  Plus with a 45 minute exercise bout, energy is coming from other systems too including non-working muscles releasing lactate for further breakdown. All in all, the faster twitch muscles are good for a few minutes before you get bogged down.  But, repetitive moves using the same muscle groups cause a movement to become more aerobic with repeated bouts. A really odd fact is that with training, your fast twitch muscles start to take on traits of slower twitch muscles.  It is fair to equate sprinters to climbers (more like milers for sport climbing).  But, the whole 45 minute deal with the liver is way off.  And at that point, you are relying a lot on "slow twitch" fibers.  You, Pat, of all people have seen me quaking up and down in the same 3 moves for a lot longer than 45 minutes.  That is some very aerobic trembling going on :-)

Good info john. If only i had a propensity for memorization and testing i might to school and seek some formal training in regard to the subject.
 
Your explanation may just be flying write over my head. However my original thought and maybe not clearly stated was kinda in line with your explanation for multiple short intensity activities that although anaerobic in natural when compiled ultimatley train ones aerobic system more than anaerobic. My thought, is it not true that one only has so much anaerobic capacity/intervals/efforts before that tank for said intensity/activity is so diminished or empty that the said activity becomes much more aerobic in nature due to the decreased intensity and continued effort to reproduce it at a much lower intensity?

Maybe that is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo and me wanting to hear myself talk but i am remembering spring workouts from my cycling days and thinking about in the course of a day climbing how long i can continue to work a climb that is clearly a above my head ability wise before it is just a waste of time. My answer would be with a rest of 2-5 minutes between attempts a solid 30-45 minutes.

Does that last thought make sense to you  in regard to Champs 45 minute claim because it does to me and i wonder if this is what he is speaking to?

And i have not seen your work a sequence of three moves for 45 minutes and far to long my friend. I hope you are sitting on the couch with the feet one hand in a bag if chips and the other holding a beer!!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: hobbsj on May 16, 2012, 03:08:02 PM
Champ, you should refrain from scientific and medical advice.  Throwing a couple of more technical words in there doesn't make you more reliable.  And its theorized that its the hydrogen ions, not pyruvate, that causes the burning due to a change in pH.  The pump is largely due to occlusion of the blood vessels due to contraction of the muscle with local mediators being released in an effort to increase blood flow (think blood pressure cuff left on too long) in conjunction with fatigue mechanisms (which as much as people throw terms around, the exercise science world only has some theories as to what the sole mechanisms of fatigue are).  And the muscle speed is a characteristics of the myosin head isoforms and enzymatic activity and characterized with the color due to mitichondria density and NOT blood flow.  You drain a chicken breast and a chicken thigh of all the blood and one is still going to be lighter than the other because one is fast twitch and one is slow stitch.  Also explains why the white meat has more fat--slow twitch muscles store more fat as they are recruited at intensities that allow for more use of it as a fuel.  And blood levels are fairly constant.  You get more plasma volume in the first couple weeks of exercise training with a subsequent increase in red blood cells at about week 6, but it remains constant after that while you can still train muscle fibers long after that.  You're absolutely right that the muscle is a small fuel tank, but with a 45 minute exercise bout repeated over and over, you're not going to exhaust those fuel reserves and then refill them. Once depleted, it takes hours to restore muscle glycogen.

Ill-informed individuals spreading haphazard antictidotal explanations is what makes one of my jobs a pain in the rear.  Although all my internet posting lately would make people think I'm an unemployed bum :-)

And to Pat, you are absolutely correct that repeated bouts of exercise "become aerobic" due to fatigue and decreased intensity.  But that's not the same as climbing straight for 45 minute as was the original post regarding a 45 minute pitch on whitehorse.  There's a lot more tied in to the equation and really can't be simplified as its dependent on the changes in intensity of the activity.    The work/rest/repeat is more like an interval training series.  In that case, you are still anaerobic in the hard part. You are just making it so you can log more total time at a given intensity, like 5X8 min intervals at the same power you could only hold for a 25 min TT on the bike.  The level of activation of the muscles and work load determine if its aerobic and anaerobic.  You could do the 3-5 minute efforts like you said, or you could do something harder for a shorter duration and easier for a longer duration.  The time spent working a climb is more likely related to chance of success or progress.  You aren't going to try a move over and over for 45  minutes if you can't even hold on in the first place.  Equating it to the bike again, 300 watts is 300 watts.  It is an anaerobic intensity (at least for me) regardless of the number of repeats.  If I can't hold 300 watts, my ass gets dropped.  Now lets look at a CX course that more applies to your example of anaerobic becoming aerobic.  The intitial effort may be huge over a run-up, but that pace gets slower with fatigue making it aerobic.  Climbing is similar.  You pull some moves really fast and hard.  Then you go down and do it again.  If the moves are easy enough to perform, you can do them more slowly in an "aerobic" state, but you have to have a given amount of strength to do it that just may not be there at that low of an intensity.  And as far as hard intensity to train the aerobic system, that's a whole different list of adaptations and explinations.  But in the end, with hard repeats, you are training your anaerobic system by making it do more work than a straight effort like the TT example earlier.  And yes, you do see adaptions that are very aerobic after hard training due to the various adaptations  For example, a VO2 block of training does a LOT for anaerobic work capacity as that's the type of intensity it is.  But, you also get adaptation that are very beneficiall aerobically as a bonus.  This explanation is scattered, I know as I went back and added stuff here and there.  And wow, this is a far cry from rope management on Whitehorse!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 16, 2012, 03:59:18 PM
Champ, you should refrain from scientific and medical advice.  Throwing a couple of more technical words in there doesn't make you more reliable.  And its theorized that its the hydrogen ions, not pyruvate, that causes the burning due to a change in pH.  The pump is largely due to occlusion of the blood vessels due to contraction of the muscle with local mediators being released in an effort to increase blood flow (think blood pressure cuff left on too long) in conjunction with fatigue mechanisms (which as much as people throw terms around, the exercise science world only has some theories as to what the sole mechanisms of fatigue are).  And the muscle speed is a characteristics of the myosin head isoforms and enzymatic activity and characterized with the color due to mitichondria density and NOT blood flow.  You drain a chicken breast and a chicken thigh of all the blood and one is still going to be lighter than the other because one is fast twitch and one is slow stitch.  Also explains why the white meat has more fat--slow twitch muscles store more fat as they are recruited at intensities that allow for more use of it as a fuel.  And blood levels are fairly constant.  You get more plasma volume in the first couple weeks of exercise training with a subsequent increase in red blood cells at about week 6, but it remains constant after that while you can still train muscle fibers long after that.  You're absolutely right that the muscle is a small fuel tank, but with a 45 minute exercise bout repeated over and over, you're not going to exhaust those fuel reserves and then refill them. Once depleted, it takes hours to restore muscle glycogen.

Ill-informed individuals spreading haphazard antictidotal explanations is what makes one of my jobs a pain in the rear.  Although all my internet posting lately would make people think I'm an unemployed bum :-)

And to Pat, you are absolutely correct that repeated bouts of exercise "become aerobic" due to fatigue and decreased intensity.  But that's not the same as climbing straight for 45 minute as was the original post regarding a 45 minute pitch on whitehorse.  There's a lot more tied in to the equation and really can't be simplified as its dependent on the changes in intensity of the activity.    The work/rest/repeat is more like an interval training series.  In that case, you are still anaerobic in the hard part. You are just making it so you can log more total time at a given intensity, like 5X8 min intervals at the same power you could only hold for a 25 min TT on the bike.  The level of activation of the muscles and work load determine if its aerobic and anaerobic.  You could do the 3-5 minute efforts like you said, or you could do something harder for a shorter duration and easier for a longer duration.  The time spent working a climb is more likely related to chance of success or progress.  You aren't going to try a move over and over for 45  minutes if you can't even hold on in the first place.  Equating it to the bike again, 300 watts is 300 watts.  It is an anaerobic intensity (at least for me) regardless of the number of repeats.  If I can't hold 300 watts, my ass gets dropped.  Now lets look at a CX course that more applies to your example of anaerobic becoming aerobic.  The intitial effort may be huge over a run-up, but that pace gets slower with fatigue making it aerobic.  Climbing is similar.  You pull some moves really fast and hard.  Then you go down and do it again.  If the moves are easy enough to perform, you can do them more slowly in an "aerobic" state, but you have to have a given amount of strength to do it that just may not be there at that low of an intensity.  And as far as hard intensity to train the aerobic system, that's a whole different list of adaptations and explinations.  But in the end, with hard repeats, you are training your anaerobic system by making it do more work than a straight effort like the TT example earlier.  And yes, you do see adaptions that are very aerobic after hard training due to the various adaptations  For example, a VO2 block of training does a LOT for anaerobic work capacity as that's the type of intensity it is.  But, you also get adaptation that are very beneficiall aerobically as a bonus.  This explanation is scattered, I know as I went back and added stuff here and there.  And wow, this is a far cry from rope management on Whitehorse!

In regard to your last statement in your last sentence i say it sure as hell is sensi ;)

Being i have a fair amount of prior knowledge/understanding i can clearly follow all of the above. As for rope management that is another story. I still don't know what is so hard about that all for me. Just like anything i am sure it is just practice and i will look back and shake my head. Actually am sure i will as in theory it is all so simple.

As i said prior i understand in principle all the exercise physiology but man what i give give to really understand it academically to the depth that you do. Again me and school just do not get along. As you have said probably not the most practical use of ones time anyway.

Thanks for the explanation. And ow P.S. you end up on the interweb quite a bit more when you are injured ;)

Ow yeah and i was thinking as i just was out watering the garden was that comment you made in regard to people thinking you are some kind of unemployed bum a dig at me. Actually don't answer that ;)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: strandman on May 16, 2012, 06:55:35 PM
I think I'm gonna fucking die the next time I do WH standard   :-\

Holly shit , this is way to much info.

Maybe we should just climb ?

i have scientific/medical advice-

don't fall off and hit something
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: slink on May 16, 2012, 07:10:44 PM
+1 John.
 I think it is the rain out here causing people to think wayyy too much about this.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 16, 2012, 08:14:19 PM
Champ, you should refrain from scientific and medical advice.  Throwing a couple of more technical words in there doesn't make you more reliable.  And its theorized that its the hydrogen ions, not pyruvate, that causes the burning due to a change in pH.  The pump is largely due to occlusion of the blood vessels due to contraction of the muscle with local mediators being released in an effort to increase blood flow (think blood pressure cuff left on too long) in conjunction with fatigue mechanisms (which as much as people throw terms around, the exercise science world only has some theories as to what the sole mechanisms of fatigue are). 

throwing a couple of more technical words.... I just said that it is complex and when your reserve is empty, you should put some thing back in it. I think that every teacher know that after 45 minutes the student begin to be less concentrate. It is just that to survive, most animal need a boust of energy to escape or hunt. if they spend more energy than the expense, they died and if they don't have enought they don't eat or escape. It is basicaly the rule of natural selection. Atp -cr is a ready to use form of energy and it is use for a very short period (boulder climber use that). After that, your reserve of energy is lower and you can't have it until you rest passively or actively.

There is a difference on the way we explain the mechanism between training purposes and biological cells. I wonder if you read about the effect of pH on the muscle and the reaction? if the number of red and white muscular fiber is stable in the body and can explain why certain person are stronger than the other in a sport? how you can train Pink fiber to white or to red depending of what the animal need to survive?

The idea here is not to afraid people, but just to gave some info that can be usefull while climbing. I thought that I can do a master degree on cells nutrition, but not when I am climbing. Still i can evaluate that 45 minutes is normal for a pitch.   

Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 17, 2012, 09:41:23 AM
Hobbsj!!! That post is amazing!
Where the hell did you learn all of this, clearly a medical background in your past or present?
~g
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 17, 2012, 10:01:51 AM
i have scientific/medical advice-
don't fall off and hit something
With no disrepect to others, this is concise and to the point.  KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.
There is just so much my brain can hold at any one time and that amount decreases exponentially as my arms and/or calf muscles get pumped! :)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 17, 2012, 10:25:10 AM
i have scientific/medical advice-
don't fall off and hit something
With no disrepect to others, this is concise and to the point.  KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.
There is just so much my brain can hold at any one time and that amount decreases exponentially as my arms and/or calf muscles get pumped! :)

+1
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 17, 2012, 07:03:19 PM
I think I'm gonna fucking die the next time I do WH standard   :-\

Holly shit , this is way to much info.

Maybe we should just climb ?

I agree. It is the reason why I sugest: look at the cliff from the parking. Localize the route and decide where you are going to place the belay. Evaluate a time of 1h30 for a pitch. If there is 7 pitch it will take ten hours. so dont bein at ten o'clock (it can be faster for an intermediate climber, whe are in a beginer section). Evaluate the fall factor on a 0 degree slab with friction. Personally, I always use a 10.2. The use of an 8.5 could be scary for the third climber, so I will use two half rope for the third climber clip in each protection, discuss with your partner how you want to coil the rope at the belay and try to find what doesn't work.

Most of it, if you have the choice between understanding someone who climb instead of going to class and someone who go to class instead of climbing, try to understand what the good climber in the cliff is doing. It is more important than what they say in books.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: xcrag_corex on May 17, 2012, 07:31:10 PM
+1 Strand!!!!! THE RAINS GONE!!!! LETS GET OUR EFF'N CLIMB ON!!!!! :)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 17, 2012, 07:47:11 PM
... try to understand what the good climber in the cliff is doing. It is more important than what they say in books.

And Champ gets the first +1 from me, even though he had to much generalization in the rest of the post, this quote is excellent
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DGoguen on May 17, 2012, 09:55:09 PM
And Champ gets the first +1 from me,
I know it's going to be unusually cold tonight but apparently Hell has frozen over. Ha Ha
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 18, 2012, 05:59:06 AM
Champ, you should refrain from scientific and medical advice.  Throwing a couple of more technical words in there doesn't make you more reliable. [...] Ill-informed individuals spreading haphazard antictidotal explanations is what makes one of my jobs a pain in the rear. 

Here a reference of what I talk about:

Body fat and carbohydrate stores provide the major sources of exercise fuel; whereas fat sources (plasma free fatty acids derived from adipose tissue and intramuscular triglycerides) are relatively plentiful, carbohydrate sources (plasma glucose derived from the liver or dietary carbohydrate intake, and muscle glycogen stores) are limited (for a review, see Coyle, 1995). In fact, the availability of carbohydrate as a substrate for the muscle and central nervous system becomes a limiting factor in the performance of prolonged sessions (90 min) of submaximal or intermittent high-intensity exercise, and plays a permissive role in the performance of brief high-intensity work. http://sportsoracle.com/uploads/2595.pdf  Carbohydrates and fat for training and recovery.

I have more with data on 45 minutes for the kind of energy we use in trad. I didn't verify for boulder or sport. I can bet that boulder don't use the same pattern.

plasma glucose derived from the liver... 
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: hobbsj on May 18, 2012, 07:06:19 AM
Champ, you're looking at very small pieces and interpretation of old data.  Yes, carbohydrates are limited.  But, again, the 45 min window is arbitrary dependent on intensity.  I'm not arguing with 45 min per pitch being a rule of thumb in planning pitches and think its a fair number.  But substrate utilization is dependent on intensity.  Duration plays in to it and cause also cause a shift in usage too.  And again, new data suggests that it is not just substrate availability that leads to fatigue.  They've hooked people up to glucose infusions and they still crack.  And yes, plasma glucose has a major contributor from the liver, but its not as simple as you state where you use all your muscle glycogen and then move on to the liver.  Instead, your liver is pushing out glucose all the time dependent on intensity just as your adipose tissue pushes out triglycerides for energy use.  Plus, oral intake contributes significantly.  That bar you eat at the belay adds quite a kick if you get enough carbohydrates in it.  And besides, the big thing we have BOTH failed to hit is that intramuscular substrate doesn't mean squat if fuel is the limiter--its blood glucose levels crashing that leads to a bonk.  The only thing your body cares about regarding fuel is keeping your brain fed first.  Your muscles are just sucking down energy.  I used to have some awesome graphs explaining substrate, time and intensity that I used when I taught exercise physiology.  If I can find them, I'll post them as they make it easier to grasp all the variables rather than a bunch of typing.

As far as your other post, again, you have stuff that is correct, and things not so much.  Yes can can train muscle fibers to act like other fibers.  But, they only act that way.  Muscle fiber composition is genetically predetermined.  But training can make muscles act "slower" with adaptations.  You get alterations in enzymes, increased capillary density, increased mitochandria, and changes in substrate store intramuscularly.  That slow  twitch fiber, though, will always be slow twitch as determined by the inervation.  If you did the ol' swaparoo with the nerves, then you'd see a change in characteristics.  And pH as you mentioned changes a lot of things.  As does heat, hormones, and items we're still trying to explain.

Oh yeah, I studied in Coyle's lab for a bit and had him as an instructor for several classes.  Regardless of what people think of the man, he was willing to always point out that we have the tendency to take a data set and incorrectly apply it universally.

Thanks for the props old school.  I do have a bit of history in the field.  I train endurance athletes as well as taught this stuff before moving north and becoming a murse.  Its dorky, but I enjoy teaching and guess that leads to online ramblings when I'm couch-bound.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 18, 2012, 07:19:37 AM

Thanks for the props old school.  I do have a bit of history in the field.  I train endurance athletes as well as taught this stuff before moving north and becoming a murse.  Its dorky, but I enjoy teaching and guess that leads to online ramblings when I'm couch-bound.

Keep the ramblings coming and I hope you feel better soon. I had the same thing due to 30+ years playing basketball...I solved it with simple inserts at the ball of the foot...this was after two or three painful cortisone shots that did alleviate some of of the pain, but I found the insterts at the ball of the foot to be the cure. I still have to use them on the court and pavement, but my feet don't hurt stepping out of bed anymore. My climbing shoes have gotten bigger as well...that seemed to help quite a bit too! hope you feel better and are able to get back out there soon. Good weather on the way!!

~grammy
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 18, 2012, 11:56:53 AM
The energy in the muscle is burn in 45 minutes. after you have to take a rest for the liver to bring more energy to the muscle (it is a vulgarisation).

Wow, we never covered this concept in my coursework.  Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.

Hobbsj, as you can see in your critics of my knowledge, you discredited my reputation by throwing medical and physical advice. I made a vulgarisation of a very complex system and gave you proof that I know my theory.

It is happening often that people critics old far climber that know deeply how to climb but didn't know how to defend themselve on a forum. For you making a vulgarisation of a complex theory is a pain in the rear, for a trad climber to be insult because we say in simple terms a complex theory...how do you call that?

I am a climber. I protect the life of my partner and bring them to be safer. I agree that mistake is part of the game and try to bring some information to avoid it. whatever the biological body reaction, I still maintain that after 45 minutes of climbing in trad a person begin to loose is concentration and begin to make more mistake A think that you don't argue. if you don't say that my vulgarisation is false, you just descredited me for no reason. It is not really friendly.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 18, 2012, 02:28:19 PM
champ just killed his positive karma streak he was on with me
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DGoguen on May 18, 2012, 06:55:03 PM
Use the two ropes and have your seconds simulclimb...saves a ton of time!  ;)
I would say the question was wrapped up with the first response.
The continuing proctology is getting painful.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 18, 2012, 07:25:59 PM
The next question is whether the leader is doomed if one or both seconds take more than 45 minutes to follow the pitch! :)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 18, 2012, 07:51:02 PM
The next question is whether the leader is doomed if one or both seconds take more than 45 minutes to follow the pitch! :)

before Champ answers that I found the equation from page 342 of Freedom of the Hills:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=insane+math+equations&hl=en&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1101&bih=668&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsfd&tbnid=sWEZ7NaHX-0g5M:&imgrefurl=http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm%3Flink_id%3D40349&docid=JgCnEbD0hU-1qM&imgurl=http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/30488_insanemathequasion.jpg&w=667&h=577&ei=E-C2T8yrLJCA6QHU04nuCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=233&vpy=152&dur=5612&hovh=209&hovw=241&tx=157&ty=88&sig=111962598501266835258&page=1&tbnh=154&tbnw=173&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:76
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 18, 2012, 08:42:44 PM
The next question is whether the leader is doomed if one or both seconds take more than 45 minutes to follow the pitch! :)

A+
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: punxnotdead on May 19, 2012, 07:25:51 AM
Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick! I just read/skimmed through all the postings on this topic. I am now going to create a Rube Goldberg device to kick me in the nuts for all the time wasted after the first response......... UGH!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 19, 2012, 08:07:44 AM
Use the two ropes and have your seconds simulclimb...saves a ton of time!  ;)
I would say the question was wrapped up with the first response.
The continuing proctology is getting painful.

superficial advice: take two rope and do that. He will go to knife blade tower and take to skiny rope and...oops is death, the rope cut. it is what I dislike about some sport climber (not all)

what is the question? My concern is that managing 3 ropes on every pitch is going to get messy, be really heavy, back-up the route and potentially expose us to more objective hazards because it will likely add significant time to the climb.

So he talk about three rope and time to climb. He make a good research and bring the discussion to the level about a safety question of the rope rating and his manipulation. Even if I dislike the way hbbsj wrote his mail, he or she can have ask a question making me in trouble to explain it instead of saying that I am wrong and he is good, at least, he brought some thing to have a deep knowledge of climbing.

climbing with a deep knowledge of what we are doing is what we all want to climb high and safe.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DGoguen on May 19, 2012, 08:25:59 AM
superficial advice: take two rope and do that. He will go to knife blade tower and take to skiny rope and...oops is death, the rope cut. it is what I dislike about some sport climber (not all)
what is the question?
As the Subject title illustrates, the question is specific to Standard Whitehorse. The advice to use the double ropes for your seconds is not superficial. I can't speak for "old school" but I bet he wouldn't reccommend it for beginners on The Last Unicorn, a couple of hundred yards left, let alone Knife Blade Tower, oops is death. It has absolutely nothing to do with sport climbing.
I have a feeling you would think any advice or discussion to be superficial short of thesis level analysis.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 19, 2012, 08:46:27 AM
Champ is quickly approaching the century mark huh? I wonder what will happen...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 19, 2012, 08:51:19 AM
Kaboom! :)
Seriously, get out and climb today.  Man, does it look nice out!
I have to host my kid's 6th birthday party mid-day.  No climbing for me today. :(:(
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: strandman on May 19, 2012, 11:20:09 AM
I bet your kid doesn't need 45 minutes for the cake !!!!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 19, 2012, 07:03:35 PM
No, luckily not.  15 minutes, maybe?  And that included the singing and blowing out of candles.
We have quite a bit of leftover cake though; 1/4 sheet was too skimpy and 1/2 sheet (which we got) was too much ..... I now have half of leftover in the fridge and half in the freezer.  I have a tough time throwing out food even when it is BAD for me to eat it!:)

Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: Admin Al on May 20, 2012, 07:34:10 AM
I have a tough time throwing out food even when it is BAD for me to eat it!:)

I know that feeling...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: JChepes on May 21, 2012, 08:30:35 PM
I think I'm gonna fucking die the next time I do WH standard   :-\

Holly shit , this is way to much info.

Maybe we should just climb ?

i have scientific/medical advice-

don't fall off and hit something

Helmets anyone?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: John Ski on May 22, 2012, 06:23:34 PM
My 2 cents: if someone is seconding on a single 8.5 the real issue is them falling and the rope running over an edge and cutting. If that climber is heavy and there is any pendulum motion in the fall it wouldn't take much to damage and/or cut an 8.5 rope (and the other 8.5 isn't a back-up in this use). Exiting Standards ramp up the 5.5 right facing corner/crux and having pro above that move that is either set back or to the side might meet that bad scenerio. For 99% of that climb the rope running over a edge may not be an issue but... Also the fall ratings on half ropes are done with a 55kg weight instead of an 80kg weight as used for single ropes. The 6 falls rating would be on a single strand, the 16 falls if both strands absorb the force. Experienced climbers may climb on a single 8.5 and thats their call but they understand it's risks.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 22, 2012, 06:42:56 PM
Exiting Standards ramp up the 5.5 right facing corner/crux and having pro above that move that is either set back or to the side might meet that bad scenerio.

good analysis to find that conclusion. I find easier to anayse it in a forum. In lead, I can forget my second very easily. Rope drag is not the only thing to take in consideration. 
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 23, 2012, 12:21:22 AM
In lead, I can forget my second very easily.
I know what you mean but that came out funny.  Wait, who is belaying me?  :)

Got to think of your second on the Book, Farewell to Arms down at The Gunks, and the last pitch of Elder Cleavage (also Gunks).
I got reprimanded by Ajax when, in my excitement of about to onsight my 1st 5.10 at The Gunks, I ran it out on the trending line on the final easy slab to the anchors.  It would have been a grating pendulum if he had fallen pulling the roof after removing the last piece of pro I had placed below the final roof.  Lesson learned!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 23, 2012, 12:15:33 PM
In lead, I can forget my second very easily.
I know what you mean but that came out funny.  Wait, who is belaying me?  :)

A+
I should have said forget to protect my second. a think that I don't really do most of the time. I try to protect him as much as he did for me, even if there is rope drag.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 23, 2012, 04:55:50 PM
In lead, I can forget my second very easily.
I know what you mean but that came out funny.  Wait, who is belaying me?  :)

A+
I should have said forget to protect my second. a think that I don't really do most of the time. I try to protect him as much as he did for me, even if there is rope drag.

+1
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 23, 2012, 05:53:53 PM
EDIT: Mechanical whyíd you delete your post?


I wobbled once on that move long ago. Itís a total head move. Once you dial it it stays dialed. Step right early and commit and itís over kinda move... but it is a bit above that pin... glad to hear it caught. Although I canít say ďdoublesĒ saved you...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 23, 2012, 06:12:39 PM
Sorry DMAN... thought I'd get raked for sharing a fall story on White Horse again. But I do it because I usually find out that its really helpful to share details with you guys because there's always something I missed, Here it is again:

Half rope saved me again (and belayer)

Fell on that 5.7R 'Slabs Direct'. Just when you think you're a 5.7 climber you get put down. Slab was hot as a frying pan and I didn't get a wink of sleep tossing/turning all night. I was jittery at breakfast. We started at 7AM and when I broke the shade of the tree on the 5.1 I immediately felt like a piece of bacon. (BTW, don't think its a 5.1... not complaining just my opinion, I think it's a 5.3 with zero protection options from what I've seen after leading it twice now. A lot of guidebooks describe it as jaunt, almost doesn't count as a pitch along the lines of the Launch Pad approach. I don't think its anything like the Launch Pad approach. I think the start to 'Slabs Direct is a solid White Horse 5.3 def R... unless there's something I'm missing which there often is). 

Got to that 5.7R, noodled my way to jam my fingers under the overlap, clipped the piton and worked the side to get right up in the corner. No pro options, darn I wish I could've had just one piece. I'd seen a YouTube vid of some guys that high-stepped up onto the lip but I didn't have the nerve to try a balancy spooky move like that right then. I should mention that my toes are sticking out of my mythos and im guessing the heat and fact that they are waaaay over-due for a resole did not make me feel confident in my smearing. I went to try some quasi-smear-stemming via the crack and I just felt myself go. I stayed on my hands and feet and did this weird slide where I kept grabbing speed, the piton caught me right before the belay station. I always wondered what happens in a slab fall, but it wasn't as bad as I'd thought. Would be interested to know what happens on a 5.5 or 5.4 or 5.3 fall... would you stop on your own power if you stayed upright?

Not sure if the steep angle helped or hurt. Anyways blisters started immediately forming on my hands, after one more attempt, I realized I was mentally beat, we backed out and went over to Echo Roof. Surprisingly the blisters completely disappeared the next day and I sent the shoes out!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: strandman on May 23, 2012, 06:34:12 PM
Chris- ANY fall on the slabs is worth talking about   8)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 23, 2012, 06:51:45 PM
Chris- ANY fall on the slabs is worth talking about   8)

Thanks Strandman. If I were on the forum I'd want to read about it, especially when everything works out ok... its something to analyze. I have no idea how often people typically fall in trad lead... perhaps there is no typical. I just don't know if people are falling on every climb, every other, every month, every season,... or like a lot ice climbers have never taken a lead fall in their lives. Just hard to gauge.

Would be cool for someone with experience to explain how falling on a low angle slab runnout works. Just out of curiosity, what happens if you had a 30 foot white horse runnout on a 5.5 for example? A 5.5 is much less steep than the 5.7 and I only slid about 15 feet. So in a runnout 5.5 scenario would you start sliding backwards but take many feet to pick-up speed and just end up with blistered hand like I did? Could you possibly come to a grinding stop if you stayed on your hands and feet? Or would you fall so fast and violently that youd eventually lose your stance, fall into a violent death roll, only to stop 60 feet later within an inch of your life with tons of broken bones?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 23, 2012, 07:15:35 PM
Chris- ANY fall on the slabs is worth talking about   8)
Would be cool for someone with experience to explain how falling on a low angle slab runnout works. Just out of curiosity, what happens if you had a 30 foot white horse runnout on a 5.5 for example? A 5.5 is much less steep than the 5.7 and I only slid about 15 feet. So in a runnout 5.5 scenario would you start sliding backwards but take many feet to pick-up speed and just end up with blistered hand like I did? Could you possibly come to a grinding stop if you stayed on your hands and feet? Or would you fall so fast and violently that youd eventually lose your stance, fall into a violent death roll, only to stop 60 feet later within an inch of your life with tons of broken bones?

Jesus, quick before Champ starts giving us equations to figure this out!

1) Climbers donít fall often on 5.7 slab. I think you need some more time in a saddle before riding bareback. Follow some good slab climbers up 20-30 pitches and you should be way better (or engage a guide to help with your technique). 2 lead falls on moderate Whitehorse slab routes in 2 years indicates youíre not quite ready, slow it down.

2) YDS does not equal likely hood of injury, as ratings do not indicate steepness. A 5.7 slab may be lower angle than a 5.5, but less features/more smooth... The real question is whether you can maintain a skidding stance or start tumbling. This can be hard as catching a foot on a small feature may cause you to flip and lose control. Could happen in 15 feet, or 40... you could be rolling the dice...

3) Bottom line is you should not be falling on 5.7 slab that often. Shit happens, and in this case you certainly let the mind overcome you at that crux move as it is very easy, as soon as you stand up, stop leaning in, and make the move...

Donít be afraid to share, weíve all made mistakes early on... and still slip up from time to time...

Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 23, 2012, 07:38:39 PM
Slab is just like roofing but you don't get paied :-[  BTW I like slab  and I don't really like roofing that much so money is not everything....  Either way,  falling is not good... :-\
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 23, 2012, 07:52:00 PM
Chris- ANY fall on the slabs is worth talking about   8)
Would be cool for someone with experience to explain how falling on a low angle slab runnout works. Just out of curiosity, what happens if you had a 30 foot white horse runnout on a 5.5 for example? A 5.5 is much less steep than the 5.7 and I only slid about 15 feet. So in a runnout 5.5 scenario would you start sliding backwards but take many feet to pick-up speed and just end up with blistered hand like I did? Could you possibly come to a grinding stop if you stayed on your hands and feet? Or would you fall so fast and violently that youd eventually lose your stance, fall into a violent death roll, only to stop 60 feet later within an inch of your life with tons of broken bones?

Jesus, quick before Champ starts giving us equations to figure this out!

1) Climbers donít fall often on 5.7 slab. I think you need some more time in a saddle before riding bareback. Follow some good slab climbers up 20-30 pitches and you should be way better (or engage a guide to help with your technique). 2 lead falls on moderate Whitehorse slab routes in 2 years indicates youíre not quite ready, slow it down.

2) YDS does not equal likely hood of injury, as ratings do not indicate steepness. A 5.7 slab may be lower angle than a 5.5, but less features/more smooth... The real question is whether you can maintain a skidding stance or start tumbling. This can be hard as catching a foot on a small feature may cause you to flip and lose control. Could happen in 15 feet, or 40... you could be rolling the dice...

3) Bottom line is you should not be falling on 5.7 slab that often. Shit happens, and in this case you certainly let the mind overcome you at that crux move as it is very easy, as soon as you stand up, stop leaning in, and make the move...

Donít be afraid to share, weíve all made mistakes early on... and still slip up from time to time...

Thats a pretty tough assesment.

 
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 23, 2012, 08:17:19 PM
Sorry if it seems tough, I was going for honest. Climbers donít fall often on 5.7 slab, thatís not my opinion, just truth.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 23, 2012, 08:24:51 PM
Everyone is 'entitled' to have a bad day, especially if it is blisteringly hot.
Like my buddy SteveB had said on multiple occasions "there is no lower bound to one's climbing ability!". 
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 23, 2012, 08:27:23 PM
Chris- ANY fall on the slabs is worth talking about   8)

+1
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 23, 2012, 08:31:07 PM
Everyone is 'entitled' to have a bad day, especially if it is blisteringly hot.
Like my buddy SteveB had said on multiple occasions "there is no lower bound to one's climbing ability!".

Absolutely! Perhaps I generalized a bit... I just donít see/hear it happen that often. I climbed up a moist start of Beginnerís route a few years ago while guiding and right before I got into the drier less green rock I felt it... oops... I said as I slid back down to the ground on my hands and feet... I think that pitch is 5.1...

And blisterhot days on the slabs suck...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 23, 2012, 08:34:28 PM
Would be cool for someone with experience to explain how falling on a low angle slab runnout works. Just out of curiosity, what happens if you had a 30 foot white horse runnout on a 5.5 for example? A 5.5 is much less steep than the 5.7 and I only slid about 15 feet.

Falling on a incline wall diminish the fall factor. The friction on the slab slow your speed and you don't take as much energy than when you fall on the air and hit the rock after. Some 5.7 have less inclinaison than a 5.5. I thought at a slab call patinoire (ice ring) in quebec which is very slipery and harder than a number 30 paper sand.

As you climb, you had probably your weight divided on both your hands and your feet. That situation is probably the reason why you sleep. In a slab, there is a technique that you can learn to avoid that kind of mistake (not saying that you did it). sliding on for point of contact look pretty safe in your case. if your feet caught a small ledge, you can have been filp over and be more injure. As i climb, I always look where i am going to fall if i sleep. It help me many times as I was able to place my body instanctively in a way to avoid that ledge or small overhang.

Personally I will never recomand to walk on a slab as I saw in some post. A beginer have to learn the basic of three point of contact on easy ground before trying it on harder slab. My partner, who is a guide, do it and I still don't like that. And I know that he know better them me how to slab climb 
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 23, 2012, 09:22:22 PM
As i climb, I always look where i am going to fall if i sleep...

Personally I will never recomand to walk on a slab as I saw in some post. A beginer have to learn the basic of three point of contact on easy ground before trying it on harder slab. My partner, who is a guide, do it and I still don't like that. And I know that he know better them me how to slab climb

Better to not sleep while actively climbing, to prevent falling. Just kidding Champ! Itís ďslipĒ, not ďsleepĒ but we knew what you meant. ďSleepĒ makes it funny to read though! :)

The reason guides, and long time slab climbers often say ďstand upĒ to beginnerís on slabs is most of the time people lean in to much and donít stay weighted over their feet. Thereís nothing wrong with keeping your hands on the rock, but that is hard to do on 35 degree slab, which is much of lower Whitehorse, without leaning in to much. I find it easier to do when following, but when leading the same pitch I may just use fingertips with outstretched arms to stay more stable...  the important concept is stay over your feet and stop leaning in so much!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 23, 2012, 09:31:47 PM
As i climb, I always look where i am going to fall if i sleep...

Personally I will never recomand to walk on a slab as I saw in some post. A beginer have to learn the basic of three point of contact on easy ground before trying it on harder slab. My partner, who is a guide, do it and I still don't like that. And I know that he know better them me how to slab climb

Better to not sleep while actively climbing, to prevent falling. Just kidding Champ! Itís ďslipĒ, not ďsleepĒ but we knew what you meant. ďSleepĒ makes it funny to read though! :)

The reason guides, and long time slab climbers often say ďstand upĒ to beginnerís on slabs is most of the time people lean in to much and donít stay weighted over their feet. Thereís nothing wrong with keeping your hands on the rock, but that is hard to do on 35 degree slab, which is much of lower Whitehorse, without leaning in to much. I find it easier to do when following, but when leading the same pitch I may just use fingertips with outstretched arms to stay more stable...  the important concept is stay over your feet and stop leaning in so much!

So that 2-3 bolt 5.10 slab to the left of Bombardment "hands or no hands" ?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 23, 2012, 09:48:02 PM
oh god hands! Thatís closer to 60 degrees I think... definitely hands.

Next time youíre at the top of Cathedral look closely at Whitehorse from that nice look out that faces it... look at the lower pitches, it helps with perspective... then, when climbing on those lower slabs if it starts to feel sketch, look sideways... when you compare the horizon to the slab you can remind yourself ďthis is not as steep as Iím making it feelĒ.

About 10 years ago I freaked myself out on the 5.3 pitch of Slabs Direct getting to the pinch on Lunch Ledge... really off day and I was crawling up the slab 60 feet from the last bolt sweating buckets... I think folks on Standard were actually concerned... looking back it was all in my head, and horrible body position... that same terrain today is a walk up as I perceive it for what it is, 40ish degree slab...

The closer your face is to the rock, the steeper your mind will tell you the cliff is. Look sideways, stay upright over your feet, breathe... and all should go well... until you slip ;)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 23, 2012, 09:50:47 PM
oh god hands! Thatís closer to 60 degrees I think... definitely hands.

Next time youíre at the top of Cathedral look closely at Whitehorse from that nice look out that faces it... look at the lower pitches, it helps with perspective... then, when climbing on those lower slabs if it starts to feel sketch, look sideways... when you compare the horizon to the slab you can remind yourself ďthis is not as steep as Iím making it feelĒ.

About 10 years ago I freaked myself out on the 5.3 pitch of Slabs Direct getting to the pinch on Lunch Ledge... really off day and I was crawling up the slab 60 feet from the last bolt sweating buckets... I think folks on Standard were actually concerned... looking back it was all in my head, and horrible body position... that same terrain today is a walk up as I perceive it for what it is, 40ish degree slab...

The closer your face is to the rock, the steeper your mind will tell you the cliff is. Look sideways, stay upright over your feet, breathe... and all should go well... until you slip ;)

So clippity at Rumney what degree of angle do you think that is?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 23, 2012, 10:31:16 PM
Iíve only done that once as I donít get to Rumney often but a friend solos it in 40 minutes car to car... Iíd say itís probably pretty low angle, and featured. He also has some damn good lungs...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 23, 2012, 10:50:00 PM
Iíve only done that once as I donít get to Rumney often but a friend solos it in 40 minutes car to car... Iíd say itís probably pretty low angle, and featured. He also has some damn good lungs...

Funny you should say that. Me and a a couple friends did just that last week. Well not in 40 minutes car to car but at the end of the day. One suggested after we got back to the car that it would make a great run out and back. I agree now if i could only heal this achilles and planters problems i could get back to running instead of just climbing.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 24, 2012, 10:08:37 AM
Here's a pic I took from that beautiful belay on Lady and The Tramp of two guys soloing Clippety a few weeks ago.

http://postimage.org/image/z1hojvtff/

Clippety is fun but Laura and I both think "Lady and The Tramp" next door even better despite not being as classic (It's actually my favorite climb at Rumney so far along with 'Fear of Abraham').

Hard comparison on the angle but I think Clippety is actually steeper in some parts than a lot of the White Horse lower slabs. A few feet after the first belay is pretty legit. (if you don't use the dike). With that said, the mind game is almost not comparable. But I'm bias, White Horse is my favorite rock... maybe because it gives me so much trouble.


Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 24, 2012, 10:44:57 AM
Here's a pic I took from that beautiful belay on Lady and The Tramp of two guys soloing Clippety a few weeks ago.

http://postimage.org/image/z1hojvtff/

Clippety is fun but Laura and I both think "Lady and The Tramp" next door even better despite not being as classic (It's actually my favorite climb at Rumney so far along with 'Fear of Abraham').

Hard comparison on the angle but I think Clippety is actually steeper in some parts than a lot of the White Horse lower slabs. A few feet after the first belay is pretty legit. (if you don't use the dike). With that said, the mind game is almost not comparable. But I'm bias, White Horse is my favorite rock... maybe because it gives me so much trouble.

Yup that's about what it felt like and what i remember. I am such a nerd so low angle, if i did not climb rock i would not think twice about running up clippety if it was in my way and i needed to get around it! Sometimes knowledge can really make you over think the most basic stuff...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 24, 2012, 11:08:40 AM
Here's a pic I took from that beautiful belay on Lady and The Tramp of two guys soloing Clippety a few weeks ago.

http://postimage.org/image/z1hojvtff/

Clippety is fun but Laura and I both think "Lady and The Tramp" next door even better despite not being as classic (It's actually my favorite climb at Rumney so far along with 'Fear of Abraham').

Hard comparison on the angle but I think Clippety is actually steeper in some parts than a lot of the White Horse lower slabs. A few feet after the first belay is pretty legit. (if you don't use the dike). With that said, the mind game is almost not comparable. But I'm bias, White Horse is my favorite rock... maybe because it gives me so much trouble.

Yup that's about what it felt like and what i remember. I am such a nerd so low angle, if i did not climb rock i would not think twice about running up clippety if it was in my way and i needed to get around it! Sometimes knowledge can really make you over think the most basic stuff...

When I fall its because I get way too scared for no reason. I had a stellar run for a few weeks; Artists Bluff, Echo and Standard Route. And then for some reason Saturday night I couldn't stop thinking about Slabs Direct; which I've lead all before, except that one 5.7 pitch.

But for some reason I just got so intimidated at the idea. I was beat before I ever stepped on the slab. As a test, after we rapped off, I went over to "Holy Land" at Echo roof... which I'd climbed no problem several times two weeks before.  I was so nervous right before the belay. I also remember looking up at the second pitch that goes under the roof a few weeks ago and thinking "That looks pretty easy and straightforward." and then on Sunday I was like "No way, that looks like suicide."

I wonder if it has to do with an audience. My little sister's boyfriend was with us. For some reason I think it's a strange personal thing. Laura says she can only lead around certain people. At 'Garden of The Gods' a crowd of tourists formed while I was on White Spire and I just remember the climbing going from being fun and manageable to desperate real fast.

Everyone is telling their kids to look and take pictures... and some woman's like "He goin' crack his head open". My leg started doing the Elvis... lol while I'm trying to wait everyone out.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: apbt1976 on May 24, 2012, 11:33:30 AM
Here's a pic I took from that beautiful belay on Lady and The Tramp of two guys soloing Clippety a few weeks ago.

http://postimage.org/image/z1hojvtff/

Clippety is fun but Laura and I both think "Lady and The Tramp" next door even better despite not being as classic (It's actually my favorite climb at Rumney so far along with 'Fear of Abraham').

Hard comparison on the angle but I think Clippety is actually steeper in some parts than a lot of the White Horse lower slabs. A few feet after the first belay is pretty legit. (if you don't use the dike). With that said, the mind game is almost not comparable. But I'm bias, White Horse is my favorite rock... maybe because it gives me so much trouble.

Yup that's about what it felt like and what i remember. I am such a nerd so low angle, if i did not climb rock i would not think twice about running up clippety if it was in my way and i needed to get around it! Sometimes knowledge can really make you over think the most basic stuff...

When I fall its because I get way too scared for no reason. I had a stellar run for a few weeks; Artists Bluff, Echo and Standard Route. And then for some reason Saturday night I couldn't stop thinking about Slabs Direct; which I've lead all before, except that one 5.7 pitch.

But for some reason I just got so intimidated at the idea. I was beat before I ever stepped on the slab. As a test, after we rapped off, I went over to "Holy Land" at Echo roof... which I'd climbed no problem several times two weeks before.  I was so nervous right before the belay. I also remember looking up at the second pitch that goes under the roof a few weeks ago and thinking "That looks pretty easy and straightforward." and then on Sunday I was like "No way, that looks like suicide."

I wonder if it has to do with an audience. My little sister's boyfriend was with us. For some reason I think it's a strange personal thing. Laura says she can only lead around certain people. At 'Garden of The Gods' a crowd of tourists formed while I was on White Spire and I just remember the climbing going from being fun and manageable to desperate real fast.

Everyone is telling their kids to look and take pictures... and some woman's like "He goin' crack his head open". My leg started doing the Elvis... lol while I'm trying to wait everyone out.

The same thing happens to me from time to time.

Less now that it used to when i first started climbing but every once and a while a crowd or new/wrong partner can still really wreck my head. When this happens i go solo something well within my ability, Hitchcock, Shoestring, Odells, or in the case of rock Clippity. Normally that does the trick and gets my head back on track and i am good to go!!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 24, 2012, 12:34:03 PM
Here's a pic I took from that beautiful belay on Lady and The Tramp of two guys soloing Clippety a few weeks ago.

http://postimage.org/image/z1hojvtff/



Thatís a perfect example of leaning way to far into the rock and not keeping your weight over your feet. It looks like they are crawling vrs. climbing. Stand up you two! :) Seriously, when you lean in so far you 1) canít see your feet/holds as well, and 2) your weight is not pushing straight down on the slab making you more likely to slip...

Leaning in like that provides a FALSE sense of security...
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: xcrag_corex on May 24, 2012, 04:02:12 PM
that pic is of me and my friend tyler. at that point I wasn't even moving and I was looking up the rock. waiting for tyler to get a head start. def have that climb dialed and the friction on that thing is rediculous. funny that that was you chris.... didn't even recognize you. met you out at Frankenstein early april 2 seasons ago when me and my girl were hiking. good to see you are getting after it!


Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: fresh on May 24, 2012, 04:22:50 PM
for what it's worth, the picture is slightly tilted, so those guys aren't as bad as they look.

I was soloing (no pro) to the first anchor on sliding board two weeks ago and psyched myself out because the rock was slightly crumbly and I couldn't stop thinking about the mushed up crystals acting like ball bearings and me going for the 200 foot slide. sometimes it's all in your head, and once you lose that momentum it's really hard to recover. you gotta believe!

Dman's right though, weight over your feet is where it's at. but you have to be ready to change that mentality when the terrain changes. some of the friction climbing maxims like taking small steps, or sticking your butt out, are just plain wrong on many slab situations. sometimes you have to make a big rockover move on a high foot, and sometimes you gotta get your head right next to the rock in order to get the center of balance you need to move your foot up. trust your instincts if something isn't working, and don't be afraid to throw common knowledge out the window if it feels right for you.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 24, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
that pic is of me and my friend tyler. at that point I wasn't even moving and I was looking up the rock. waiting for tyler to get a head start. def have that climb dialed and the friction on that thing is rediculous. funny that that was you chris.... didn't even recognize you. met you out at Frankenstein early april 2 seasons ago when me and my girl were hiking. good to see you are getting after it!

That's so cool. We didn't realize that either 8) It was April 10 2011!  There was only one other climbing party out that day and they were hanging out in the cave on Standard. Laura, still laughs about that day because you could see I was itchin to climb but there were pillars crashing in the background. You set off down the tracks and Laura still swears that you came back to make sure everything was ok, perhaps having heard us arguing whether to climb or not ; )
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: xcrag_corex on May 24, 2012, 05:48:04 PM
that is exactly why i went back. it wasn't "ideal" conditions that day. i was a little concerned hahah.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 24, 2012, 08:27:45 PM
Clippity do da is not friction climbing. It is way too featured. On site soloed it  once on a day that was close to 100f and nearly that much humidity and it was sticky and secure. Sharp Rumny rock. that lower section of whitehorse is way low angle. Hiked accross with full packs and sandals one evening comming back from Total Recall and  Childrens Crusade..  somehow we found ourselfs up on that shelf where the angle steepens. there was a dog up there unroped waiting for mommy to come back and all the beginners were stacked up waiting to rap as it got dark. We walked by with our packs and sandals. That was the closest that I ever got to doing anything right of sea Of holes. would like to do Slideing Board someday but it all looks like a zoo over there every time I walk by.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: sneoh on May 24, 2012, 11:12:28 PM

Risking over generalization, I would say on routes at .12a and under, there are very few pure friction moves to be found on any crag at Rumney.  In general, Schist is just too featured for pure friction moves.  Thin, thin edges, yes but pure friction?  Far and few in between.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: Smear on May 25, 2012, 07:29:17 AM
Trad,
You should get on Sliding Board and Wavelength.Two area classics WELL worth doing.
Bob
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DGoguen on May 25, 2012, 07:56:08 AM
Trad,
You should get on Sliding Board and Wavelength.Two area classics WELL worth doing.
Bob

Absolutely Tradman. And if your in town overnight, it's nice to start at 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon in the summer. It cools off and you typically are the only party on the cliff, particularly on a weekday. You realize the true beauty of the place.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 25, 2012, 08:20:30 AM
I am a big fan of 2nd or 3rd shift on crowded clasics..  Seems like on some of those climbs the slowest party starts @ 0 5 hundred and cloggs thimgs up all day. Starting late in the afternoon they might either be done or you can cruise past them with with relative ease as everyone else is finished as well.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: strandman on May 25, 2012, 03:23:04 PM
Very little pure friction in NE... Some harder stuff on Cannon, Future Shock (kinda)

Chris- you should check out Hugo's on Willard.. recently redone.. 6 ? pitches
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 25, 2012, 03:56:00 PM
The reason guides, and long time slab climbers often say ďstand upĒ to beginnerís on slabs is most of the time people lean in to much and donít stay weighted over their feet. Thereís nothing wrong with keeping your hands on the rock, but that is hard to do on 35 degree slab, which is much of lower Whitehorse, without leaning in to much. I find it easier to do when following, but when leading the same pitch I may just use fingertips with outstretched arms to stay more stable...  the important concept is stay over your feet and stop leaning in so much!

I understand it, I have some good training on top rope and steep slab to use stick in my hands to balance my weight over my feet.
If you are in the lead, I prefer some one who will bent is knee and put the weight on his feet than someone who whill walk straight up as if a slab is easy. When I climb I try to use my hand to find the best foothold. Some times, it is vey boomer. As I walk on the slab, I don't even have to find hold   
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 25, 2012, 04:48:51 PM
Very little pure friction in NE... Some harder stuff on Cannon, Future Shock (kinda)

Chris- you should check out Hugo's on Willard.. recently redone.. 6 ? pitches

I'm a sucker for MP; looks like Hugo is on the "must do" this season.

Future Shock +1

All that stuff at Red Rocks in CO Springs is probably pure friction right?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: strandman on May 25, 2012, 06:40:14 PM
Not that but the Red Rocks open space passes for friction. The only real friction in the US is Glacier POINt in Yosemite.. acres of perfect stone.... real friction from 5.6- 5.12+

Anothe rgood easy MP is Henderson in Huntington Ravine... 5.5 withsome harder variations.. 4 ? pitches
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 25, 2012, 06:50:25 PM
Trad,
You should get on Sliding Board and Wavelength.Two area classics WELL worth doing.
Bob

+1.... I gave Bob his first Karma point!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 25, 2012, 06:58:09 PM
Trad,
You should get on Sliding Board and Wavelength.Two area classics WELL worth doing.
Bob

+1...absolutely!!!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 25, 2012, 07:00:12 PM
The only real friction in the US is Glacier POINt in Yosemite.. acres of perfect stone.... real friction from 5.6- 5.12+

Tuolumne has some pretty spectacular friction routes as well, in one of the most beautiful settings on the planet!  ;)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: strandman on May 25, 2012, 09:49:10 PM
Fuckin' peanut /crystal climbing   :D
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: xcrag_corex on May 28, 2012, 05:38:46 PM
Very little pure friction in NE... Some harder stuff on Cannon, Future Shock (kinda)

Chris- you should check out Hugo's on Willard.. recently redone.. 6 ? pitches
+1 on Hugo's did its way fun!!!!
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 28, 2012, 06:14:56 PM
Just to beat this horse some more I climbed Standard yesterday with 2 clients who had 1 previous day experience, the day before, at Square Ledge with me. We started at 9am and climbed via the Arch and the 5.7 finish to the top. We climbed one at a time on single ropes (9.8's) and we topped out at 11:30am.

2.5 hours, and we were not rushing. Another local guide with 2 clients did Sliding Board at virtually the same pace, though I don't know the experience of his clients.

My point is the main thing that slows you down on moderate (read 5.7 and under) slab is;

1) Onsighting, mainly because of routefinding challenges
2) slow seconds... you can see good body position on the arch on the last picture:

http://davidlottmann.wordpress.com/2012/05/28/rock-climbing-fast-track-course/

A party ahead of us had started up Slabs Direct thinking it was Standard Route.  :o

They did have the nice watercolor P. Lewis topo map but were new to the area... I'm looking forward to seeing the detail in the new Handren guide.

Certainly a big speed increase was running out long sections of the arch that I would encourage new leaders to place more gear on. That and familiarity with the crux pitch.



Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 29, 2012, 05:54:14 AM
Placeing gear really should not slow you down much and sometimes makes you climb faster. that is of course provideing that you are good at placeing gear. I have had seconds tell me that I place gear the same speed that they clip bolts. that is obviously a skill to work on. I do find that in many situations placeing a bit more gear helps you climb faster and safer. YMMV   On super easy slab that may not be the case but I felt like rambeling..   A big part of keeping your slab head is to just keep moveing upward. tell yourself that I DON'T FALL ON THIS TYPE OF TERRAIN and just keep chugging up. Stopping and micro managing moves never helps on slab......
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 29, 2012, 08:58:42 AM
... Stopping and micro managing moves never helps on slab......

Totally agree! Another side note regarding this route, you can actually link the bolted belay at the bottom of the arch with the pinch belay with a 60m rope (traditionally you stop and build a gear anchor at ďthe mailboxĒ).

Two ways to do this.

1) Space out your gear quite a bit and use shoulder length slings. I place 3 pieces on the pitch and traverse low at the end of the pitch, then climb straight up to the thread. Your 2nd could have a bit of a sliding swing after cleaning the last piece if they donít also take the low road. It would be inconsequential as it is very low angle there.

2) Cut over to the Quartz Pocket route joining it above the Quartz pocket just in time for the 5.4 move at an old bolt stud (not clippable). There is gear in a flake before that move but it is a runout 5.4r pitch. Tricams help right after that one 5.4 move. At the end of the faint diagonal dike is a bomber #2 I place before stepping up to the pinch.

Both options really stretch a 60m rope, good idea to let your partner know what to do if youíre rope seems to have shrunk (i.e. unclip and start climbing).

Oh ya, anyone get a nut stuck just above Lunch Ledge or leave a nice shiny wire gate bail biner on the pin below the 5.7 crux?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 29, 2012, 09:30:25 AM
Pinch belay is cool but I don't trust it alone, I put a cam in there as well. Def move slower because we auto block 100% of the time, with two half ropes it really takes a lot of energy out of the leader.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 29, 2012, 09:41:56 AM
we auto block 100% of the time

what do you mean by this?
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: mechanicalchris on May 29, 2012, 10:04:06 AM
we auto block 100% of the time

what do you mean by this?

http://s14.postimage.org/kfamotkhb/auto_block.jpg
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on May 29, 2012, 10:37:21 AM
Ah, 100% of the time while belaying the second(s). Got it.

It's probably been mentioned already but that is really slow on the slabs... it's impossible to keep up with two fast moving seconds and it's hell on the elbows after a few years. It's why I love my Trango Cinch and a couple skinny single ropes, around 9.4mm. There is almost no effort required to pull 200 feet of rope through a Cinch and since it only takes a seconding climber 5-10 minutes to clean a pitch I find it so much easier to belay them one at a time this way. You also have the added abrasion resistance of having each climber on a single rope, as we should, even though sometimes we don't.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: old_school on May 29, 2012, 02:22:36 PM
Ah, 100% of the time while belaying the second(s). Got it.

It's probably been mentioned already but that is really slow on the slabs... it's impossible to keep up with two fast moving seconds and it's hell on the elbows after a few years. It's why I love my Trango Cinch and a couple skinny single ropes, around 9.4mm. There is almost no effort required to pull 200 feet of rope through a Cinch and since it only takes a seconding climber 5-10 minutes to clean a pitch I find it so much easier to belay them one at a time this way. You also have the added abrasion resistance of having each climber on a single rope, as we should, even though sometimes we don't.

Very true! That is why I love my smart alpine...especially with thin ropes. There is next to no friction, pulls better than the ATC guide and Reverso 3 put together and I have the option to go with one or two climbers at a time. The cinch and new gri gri are great for single rope management and belaying though.

~g  ;)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on May 30, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
Placeing gear really should not slow you down much and sometimes makes you climb faster. that is of course provideing that you are good at placeing gear. I have had seconds tell me that I place gear the same speed that they clip bolts. that is obviously a skill to work on. I do find that in many situations placeing a bit more gear helps you climb faster and safer. YMMV   On super easy slab that may not be the case but I felt like rambeling..   A big part of keeping your slab head is to just keep moveing upward. tell yourself that I DON'T FALL ON THIS TYPE OF TERRAIN and just keep chugging up. Stopping and micro managing moves never helps on slab......

I agree with training, but some wall are easier to protect than other and if you already did the climb few times, you don't have to choose distance, size and other factor.

My partner suggest me to take time at the begining to place good gear instead of just placing gear. They also told me to practice in top rope to place as many protection as I can in a pitch in many position. Thuis will help you to find resting place and also to know how energy you still have t make the next move.
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: tradmanclimbz on May 30, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
I can place gear in funky situations or easy ones. No matter. you should be able to look at a crack and pick the right piece in seconds. If it takes you more than 2 tries to get it right you need more work. One of my most frustrateing climbing days ever was being stuck behind a slow party on the Prow in december freezing my ever loveing ars off as this guy bounce tested every piece on the A1 finger crack. Yikes! if you can't pick the right stopper, place it and go on that sucker please just do us all a favor. Cut the rope and jump >:(
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on June 02, 2012, 12:05:30 AM
I can place gear in funky situations or easy ones. No matter. you should be able to look at a crack and pick the right piece in seconds.

In my rules, we must be able to size the next piece as we already clip the pro that we just place. I don`t climbb 5.11, but I agreee on 5.9 and 5.10.

Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: DLottmann on June 02, 2012, 10:02:24 AM
I can place gear in funky situations or easy ones. No matter. you should be able to look at a crack and pick the right piece in seconds.

In my rules, we must be able to size the next piece as we already clip the pro that we just place. I don`t climbb 5.11, but I agreee on 5.9 and 5.10.

Unless you are climbing in Indian Creek you usually have no idea what the next piece is. Seems pointless to me, though if I know what the crux piece is I may get it ready ahead of time (Intimidation)
Title: Re: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?
Post by: lucky luke on June 02, 2012, 10:41:11 AM
Unless you are climbing in Indian Creek you usually have no idea what the next piece is. Seems pointless to me, though if I know what the crux piece is I may get it ready ahead of time (Intimidation)

Maybe the practice to be able to do it make an other distinction between trad and sport. and it is the cause of so many agressivity between us.

I am not good as before as I climb less. Hope to be back to the rock on a regular basis this week. Ordinarly, I train in aid climbing and do some exercise and climb multipitch route to be able to place my other protection before beeing in the next move. If you climb every day an place protection, you reach a moment when you have a feeling to where is going to be the next pro, without previous knowledge and without looking at it. That means that you don't just try to do harder move, like in sport, but that you are concentrate on the rock feature to anchor a nuts and how the cliff "move" to make crack, pocket and ledges (thing at many years for the rock to move or falling rock).

Saying that doing harder and harder move can also be very fun and valuable