NEClimbs.com forum

General => Rock Climbing: Sport => Topic started by: danf on September 03, 2012, 01:08:22 PM

Title: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: danf on September 03, 2012, 01:08:22 PM
Took my kids up to Lost Ledge last weekend and climbed a couple of the easier routes on the Carpet Slab.  Some of the "anchors" up there are more than a little sketchy, and I'm sure I'm not the only one with that opinion.  Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are about replacing the existing 1/4" bolts/homemade anchors with modern stuff?  I've drilled lots of rock, but can't say as I've ever done it attached to a rope so any insight anyone can give would be great. 

Just so everyone is clear, it's stuff like this that I'm talking about:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/424331_503494906330978_1514437876_n.jpg
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: Admin Al on September 03, 2012, 04:11:45 PM
I agree, it wouldn't be a bad idea to replace those puppies...
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: strandman on September 03, 2012, 05:38:25 PM
Is MRS/IME still doing the anchor donation thing ???
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: Admin Al on September 03, 2012, 10:32:36 PM
Is MRS/IME still doing the anchor donation thing ???

if someone wants to go out and replace these anchors, they can get them from the MRS.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: JBro on September 04, 2012, 09:32:06 AM
Is MRS/IME still doing the anchor donation thing ???

if someone wants to go out and replace these anchors, they can get them from the MRS.


You sure? A friend was going to replace some anchors and was denied. Do you have to be well known or something? (Friend is competent with anchor replacement, but none of us are well known in the area despite being weekend warriors for years.)

 
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: Admin Al on September 04, 2012, 12:10:11 PM
denied, really? who did they talk to? what anchors were they talking about replacing?
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: JBro on September 04, 2012, 12:57:03 PM
They talked to someone at the desk at IME.

I believe the anchors were a few 1/4" jobbers on Interloper (1st pitch anchor bolts I believe) and a 1/4" on Sliding Board.

Also think the bolt protecting the direct variation (straight up instead of going to the brown spot) on WH Standard Route should be replaced sometime.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: Admin Al on September 04, 2012, 02:21:21 PM
I'll look into it...tho I'm not that hooked into the current iteration of the MRS
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: Flotsam on September 04, 2012, 02:26:24 PM
Yup I've been denied.

Al recommended we get the drill and access to the cash of preferred bolts to fix up some stuff so we can do a good job.   

http://www.neclimbs.com/SMF_2/index.php/topic,3996.msg23664.html#msg23664  Al said that in 2008 but why do today what you can put off 'till tomorrow.... We just figured the policy had changed.

I inquired maybe a year or two ago.  We were feeling all community service like so we cruze in there thinking this will be great, replace some bolts and not spend hours hammering.  It's not like we're totally unknown, I've been going there for over 15 years now and my partner he's not new either, I've heard he invented dirt.  So we start talking to counter weight, chit chat, how's it going etc, blah, blah... Then I drop the question which we always assumed was a "no" but figured we'd try.  "hey I'm told there is access to the drill and preferred bolts for anchor upgrading on Whitehorse"  I get told (more or less because it's been a while now) "no drill for that only MRS use, no bolts, MRS doesn't have any bolts...."


Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: nuts on September 04, 2012, 07:07:43 PM
You don't need permission to replace a shit anchor, just be sure replacement is necessary and be sure to install the bolts properly and use modern ring anchors so a tat situation isn't created.

If you don't want to do it on your own dime, talk to Rick at IME.

Anchor and cliff maintenance is a community effort, we're all responsible.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: strandman on September 04, 2012, 07:32:55 PM
i don't know how often they do it, but Fixe was more than generous with a recent bebolt out here at Peneitente Canyon,, great stuff

If you are doing it by hand, a couple of  3/8" powers with fixe single ring anchor is fine for many applications and not to pricey
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: Admin Al on September 04, 2012, 09:11:57 PM
Ask Rick directly or better yet go upstairs and talk to Brad.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: JBro on September 04, 2012, 09:12:49 PM
You don't need permission to replace a shit anchor, just be sure replacement is necessary and be sure to install the bolts properly and use modern ring anchors so a tat situation isn't created.

If you don't want to do it on your own dime, talk to Rick at IME.

Anchor and cliff maintenance is a community effort, we're all responsible.


We've replaced several anchors on our own dime on older climbs out in the woods.

My only purpose in bringing this up is that Al has mentioned several times on this site that a drill and bolts are readily available for anchor replacement - and that may not in fact be the case. It could well be that the policy has changed, or that the person at the counter of IME was misinformed, or that one needs to be part of the "insiders club" to get access to the drill and bolts, we're not really sure.

Regarding needing permission: We wouldn't normally seek it. However, Cathedral and Whitehorse tend to be somewhat special cases. I don't think I have to elaborate any more than saying it's probably best to have locals in agreement with a decision to replace bolts before commencing with the effort.

 

 
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: danf on September 04, 2012, 09:17:01 PM
Regarding needing permission: We wouldn't normally seek it. However, Cathedral and Whitehorse tend to be somewhat special cases. I don't think I have to elaborate any more than saying it's probably best to have locals in agreement with a decision to replace bolts before commencing with the effort.
I knew Cathedral and Whitehorse have been discussed quite heavily in the past.  I wasn't sure how much those discussions extended beyond those two ledges though, thus the reason I asked here.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: JBro on September 04, 2012, 09:31:28 PM
I would say for the stuff out in the woods, and certainly for anything 1/4" or otherwise suspect (homemade and clearly not bomber, rusted, etc.) if you're willing to spend the money and effort, and you know how to place a solid bolt - then go for it.

If you have thick skin then go for the ones on Cathedral and Whitehorse too!

In seriousness, all of the bolt controversy I've heard of involved adding new bolts to existing climbs not replacing manky old  stuff.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: DLottmann on September 04, 2012, 09:47:11 PM
...

In seriousness, all of the bolt controversy I've heard of involved adding new bolts to existing climbs not replacing manky old  stuff.

I think some of the concern is someone doing a hack job removing the old bolt. I have placed maybe 7 bolts in my life and never removed one. I would seek hands on instruction from some of the people around who know how to do so properly and leave zero scar or sign of the previous bolt.

Historically I'm sure "replaced" bolts where sometimes actually "moved" bolts to facilitate a easier clip. Can't think of any examples off the top of my head but I'm sure it happens, and would stir up some hornets around here.

As of the OP, I agree with the last few posts, talk directly to Rick or Brad. I'm sure they'd accommodation if you know what you're doing. Counter-help can't be depended on for what is obviously a management type question, regardless of the store you are in.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: ELM on September 05, 2012, 07:09:43 AM
    I'm not sure two bolts need to be donated to rebolt "Carpet Slabber". I'de just by them. If you had a whole area that needed repair that's a different issue.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: strandman on September 05, 2012, 09:37:42 AM
Looks like the old "insider group" is back.... BITD when you had to beg to see the new route "ego book"  and no, I'm not kidding
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: Admin Al on September 06, 2012, 06:02:03 AM
I don't rember saying that anyone could borrow the MRS drill, but perhaps I implied it. You cannot borrow their drill. Regardless I spoke to Brad yesterday and we were sure you can get reimbursed for replacement bolts.

It is always preferred to pull the old bolt and use the original hole or pound the old stud in and cover it with rock dust and epoxy. Then drill a new hole no more than a hand width away, rock permitting. The epoxy thing is a bit of an art that Kurt Winkler showed me 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: JBro on September 06, 2012, 09:08:29 AM
The local MRS has a drill and cache of bolts specifically for the purpose of addressing bolt and anchor replacement. If this is something that you are interested in helping with you should contact Rick Wilcox at International Mountain Equipment.

Al


No big deal though - I made a mistake too once!
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: meclimber on September 06, 2012, 10:27:47 AM
Dman, 3 wogs at band M is a good example of a retro gone wrong.  new bolt plaements are weird.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: Admin Al on September 06, 2012, 11:08:19 AM
oh well. nothing ever disappears from the interweb! they only let "approved personages" use the drill. I used to qualify...

The local MRS has a drill and cache of bolts specifically for the purpose of addressing bolt and anchor replacement. If this is something that you are interested in helping with you should contact Rick Wilcox at International Mountain Equipment.

Al


No big deal though - I made a mistake too once!
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: kenreville on September 06, 2012, 03:27:47 PM
As was previously stated, go see Rick.
Although it's been 20+ years ago, I replaced the bolts on Last Unicorn, Science Friction Wall, Revolt of the Dike Brigade, the last pitch of Children's Crusade, Robinson Caruso, among others. As long as it was clear to Rick what it is you intend to do, I'm betting you'll be allowed to use the drill.

Eventually though, I bought my own Hilti. ;D
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: strandman on September 06, 2012, 07:48:41 PM
 :if you drill a new hole, go at least 10 bolt diameters from the old one.  4" for a 3/8"
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: M_Sprague on September 07, 2012, 02:09:39 PM
Right John.  If one is replacing a bolt that was put in badly, I have never understood the absolute need to put it in the exact same spot if it was a bad one. I would lean towards keeping it near if possible, but I don't understand the point of repeating a mistake. If there is going to be a bolt in the rock, it should be useful.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: tradmanclimbz on September 07, 2012, 05:57:06 PM
When I took that huge  mess of dog chain (you could see it from the bike path) off of the Eaglet I put the new Fixe rings in about the same spot that the previous rappel point was. I considered moveing it but I would have had to put the bolts really high to facilitate pulling and keep the weight off that edge. I saw some fracture lines up there that I did not like so I ended up putting the new bolts where they are which replicates the origional rap without all that chain. I chopped several old bolts and left the two best ones  that are on top of the pedastel as belay anchors. It is a bit exciteing getting a noob into that rapell but completly doable. I have done it many times.  The new rings are in the same place as the old rings just cleaner and not all that messy chain.  I see that the 2 old bolts that I left up top have sprouted quick links that orient for a rap off the east side. I assume that guides did this? Most likly they prefer to take their chances getting their clients down on the old bolts VS teaching them how to get into the exciteing rap off the south face on the new bolts?
   My point is that you can't please everyone so you just have to do the best that you can when replaceing anchors and not worry too much about the  naysayers.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: DLottmann on September 07, 2012, 07:06:47 PM
... I see that the 2 old bolts that I left up top have sprouted quick links that orient for a rap off the east side. I assume that guides did this? Most likly they prefer to take their chances getting their clients down on the old bolts VS teaching them how to get into the exciteing rap off the south face on the new bolts?...

1st, thanks for fixing that up, it was a mess and is much nicer now.

2nd, I doubt it. I don't think the Eaglet get's "guided" that often, and it's not that awkward... since the easiest line to the top is 5.7 I could easily see a recreational climber not liking rigging that rappel and choosing to dump some quick-links... or maybe not even seeing that anchor. It isn't visible from above so if it's your first time there, and you came up West Chimney... just saying... guessing guides put those there is a far reach IMO....

And most of us love teaching people how to handle weird situations like that...
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: danf on September 09, 2012, 10:19:01 AM
I sent Joe Lentini an email about replacing these bolts, he is an acquaintance through my ex-wife. His reply:

"Dan the best bet is to get one of the MRS climbing team members to go out and replace them with you."

So, I guess I'll talk to the people at IME sometime and go from there. :)
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: ELM on October 18, 2012, 08:38:55 PM
Dan; someone did do some work on carpet slabber. The two bolts are unchanged but someone did replace one anchor and added quicklinks. A bit of an improvement.
Title: Re: Sketchy anchors on Lost Ledge
Post by: danf on October 20, 2012, 09:45:40 AM
I've left screw links both times I've been climbing up there.  As I recall, the Carpet Slabber route with the old bolts had both an older and a newer top anchor.  I think the newer anchor was a bit higher than the old one, I left 2 screw links on it to even it up with the single link on the old one.

The other route I've left screw links on is the one that is to the left of 4 Holes, Girls Prefer Batteries maybe?