NEClimbs.com forum

General => General Climbing => Topic started by: SA on December 01, 2012, 05:27:04 PM

Title: John Long decks at gym
Post by: SA on December 01, 2012, 05:27:04 PM
I know this is a "Western Thing" but those gyms can be hazardous!

I had a "senior moment", just a few years ago, and fractured my tibia in the gym.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1998854/John-Long-decks-at-gym

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 01, 2012, 05:37:52 PM
I saw this as welll----Ho Man !!! 
LA already has an earthquake problem   :)

Largo is a real good guy-- get well BigMan
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: Admin Al on December 01, 2012, 06:30:08 PM
it can happen to anybody, anywhere, any time...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: sneoh on December 01, 2012, 07:55:04 PM
I never had the pleasure of meeting the man in person but have enjoyed his writing enormously.  I wish him a speedy recovery.
John, TC really hurt himself in a fall at the BRG 2 or 3 years ago.  I was as shocked as anyone can be to learn that.  It took him a while to get healthy from that episode.

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 01, 2012, 09:41:52 PM
Ya'll must check out Supertopo for some crazy posts about largo
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 02, 2012, 12:17:51 PM
“FALL ON PLASTIC, DRIVEN INDOORS BY WEATHER, NO HARD HAT” - post on Supertopo...

LOL

Hoping he recovers quick & full... I learned everything I knew about climbing my first 4 years from his books, but I loved his short stories the best. Two books I wore out when I was a teenager:

Rock Jocks Wall Rats and Hang Dogs and Close Calls...

Close calls has some really great funny stories in it...

http://www.amazon.com/Close-Falcon-Guides-Mountain-Climbing/dp/B007K4TXGQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354468609&sr=1-1&keywords=close+calls+by+john+long
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 02, 2012, 06:20:18 PM
A friend of mine used "The last Blahemy" for years is his high school classes....great story
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: meclimber on December 03, 2012, 04:46:09 PM
was just checking the climbing web sites and was just on ST and saw this.  it is amazing how the little things take us down.  I broke my ankle walking off the rock at the base of recluse.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 03, 2012, 06:46:43 PM
Recluse is notorious ankle problem...and pretty hard for 5.10
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: WanderlustMD on December 04, 2012, 03:18:26 PM
Recluse is notorious ankle problem...and pretty hard for 5.10 5.11 

Fixed that for ya.  ;D
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: WanderlustMD on December 04, 2012, 03:20:17 PM
Ugh that sucks. Big fan of Largo, like most. Hope he heals up fully!
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 04, 2012, 03:34:45 PM
Recluse is notorious ankle problem...and pretty hard for 5.10 5.11 

Fixed that for ya.  ;D

Thanks, Doc !!
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: sneoh on December 04, 2012, 07:27:19 PM
Recluse is notorious ankle problem...and pretty hard for 5.10 5.11 

Fixed that for ya.  ;D

Thanks, Doc !!
And John is willing to divulge the secret Beta for solving the opening move puzzle for a six-pack of fine Imperial Stout?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 04, 2012, 09:24:55 PM
I'd even go 4 pack !
My first " 5.11" beta by Coach Niland, around 1980
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: eyebolter on December 10, 2012, 09:13:35 AM
Supertopo is reporting that he fell due to an unfinished knot.   Stupid mistake that nobody should make but any of us could if distracted.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 10, 2012, 09:28:35 AM
And i guess Largo can't fly as well as Miss Hill did BITD
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 10, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
Be interesting to know what kind of unfinished knott it was?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 10, 2012, 11:53:04 AM
Be interesting to know what kind of unfinished knott it was?

I guess... unfinished is unfinished IMO... but if it hurts the bowline as a tie-in knot I'd be happy about that... DOWN WITH THE BOWLINE! (for tie-in)
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 10, 2012, 06:03:08 PM
https://www.rockandice.com/news/2383-john-long-injured-in-groundfall?utm_source=Mountain%2BProject&utm_medium=RSS%2BFeed&utm_campaign=MP%2BFeed-News

it was the bowline.....
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: eyebolter on December 10, 2012, 06:19:10 PM
Didn't rock and ice have an article on that a few years back?   Virtually all "knot failures" were with a bowline.   

As an aside, I am afraid of heights and a paranoid bastard and I ALWAYS double check my knot , have my partner check my knot, and then I check my partner's belay set up. 

I am going to die, but not because of an improperly tied knot or an incorrectly threaded Gri-gri (and yes you need to use a gri gri because I want you to be able to catch me even when you are dead!).
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 10, 2012, 07:33:15 PM
https://www.rockandice.com/news/2383-john-long-injured-in-groundfall?utm_source=Mountain%2BProject&utm_medium=RSS%2BFeed&utm_campaign=MP%2BFeed-News

it was the bowline.....

Wow... well... two people are really to blame. JL and his belayer... as a belayer I don't feel I can honestly say "on belay" unless I have checked my partners knot... EVERY TIME!

That being said, there was a great short article a month or two ago in one of the rags, the "Ask a Guide" section, where Robb Hess stated the absolute best knot to tie in with is the retraced figure eight with NO BACKUP KNOT!

The argument was when this is tied properly it;

1) Is impossible for it to untie

2) Easy to inspect, even from a distance (backup knots make it harder to inspect)

The UIAA (and Freedom of the Hills) both endorse the retraced eight with 6 inches of tail on a snug knot... that's IT. No silly half-hitches after the fact... tie the knot correctly, and carry on...

The ONLY advantage of the bowline is it is slightly easier to untie after a HARD fall on it... to many wanna bees think they are falling hard enough to use the bowline, or think it is cool because it is not the standard...

I've been able to untie figure 8's after 200lb people have whipped on them... it's a lame advantage...

Re-traced eight, you check it, your belayer checks it, you check it one more time... climb on!
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: eyebolter on December 10, 2012, 07:53:02 PM
Any comment about the eight follow through with the tail tucked back in?  My wife uses it, as do a  lot of sport climbers, but I use a half fisherman"s back up.  I know the back up doesn't really do anything, but that way I know I have plenty of extra.

Agree D man about both climber and belayer being at fault, but most people are cavalier about sport climbing, especially in the gym.  Frankly, I"m surprised that this type of accident doesnt happen more often.  It probably helps that I'm afraid of heights and paranoid to boot, 37 years on the rock and no such screw up yet.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 10, 2012, 08:01:43 PM
Me too EYE--- paranoia and fear of heights wins every time..
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: lucky luke on December 10, 2012, 10:33:43 PM
it was the bowline.....
A bowline can not make mistake. John Long didn't finish his knot. He make the mistake and he was honest with us.

fifty five years old, he climbs for more than forty years probably and, for a reason that we don't know, he forget to finish his not.

I wonder what is the more painfull: the injury or the bunch of people trying to teach him the good way to climb.

As a trad climber, it just remind me that the edge between safety and danger is very sharp and it is easy to go to one side or the other. Next time, it could be me. Better to be prepare. it will not be a bowline, because I use a figure eight....but a mistake can be on any thing else. I was at the summit of the mountain, going to trow my rope to rap and I wasn't tie in. It was, an I am, lucky...luke

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: sneoh on December 10, 2012, 11:12:03 PM
Any comment about the eight follow through with the tail tucked back in?  My wife uses it, as do a  lot of sport climbers, ...... 
I was shown a variation of this last Oct.  I have been doing the "tuck-in" (some people call it Figure-9) for years now.  Joe Landry first showed me.  Anyways, rather than the tuck-in end being fully snug in the Figure-8, leave it a bit loose and tighten the 8 knot around it.  This forms a small loop or eye you can get a biner into to loosen the tuck-in if you were to take a whipper and the Figure-8 really cinches tight onto the tuck-in end. 
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 10, 2012, 11:18:30 PM
It's strange how people can be avid climbers and afraid of heights. Tack my name on that list too...hahah.

And Lucky.... no one said it was the bowlines fault....its just a more difficult knot to examine... trace 8 is just easier to inspect....
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: M_Sprague on December 11, 2012, 01:35:43 AM
I'll stick with my double bowline with fisherman's stopper knot, thank you. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not coming undone and I can do it with my eyes closed in my sleep. Any knot can fail if you botch it. That is why I am like Ward in that I double check my knot and my partners and the same with the belay device. Do it every time at every pitch and it becomes second nature and  makes it feel weird and noticeable if you don't.  ..even, maybe especially in the gym, where there are so many distractions.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 11, 2012, 06:25:48 AM
Despite the fact that the vast majority of climbers use the fig. eight as a tie in knot the vast majority of tie in failures happen with the bowline. The math speaks for itself..
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: M_Sprague on December 11, 2012, 10:48:52 AM
For me, the likelihood of not finishing my knot is greater with a figure 8. With the bowline I pass the knot through my harness then I tie the knot. With the figure 8 you tie a knot, put the rope through the harness, then retrace it, so you have the feel and look of a knot there before it is able to hold anything. I like the other advantages of the double bowline too, like ease of untying after weighting and the fact that I can adjust easily if I didn't start with the right length of rope. They are both good knots that will hold you if tied properly. The key for both is to drill it into yourself and your belayer to double check everything.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: bennybrew on December 11, 2012, 06:22:35 PM
They are both good knots that will hold you if tied properly. The key for both is to drill it into yourself and your belayer to double check everything.

there you go.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 11, 2012, 06:35:43 PM
the math still does not lie. you can't beat the odds forever and the house always wins....
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: eyebolter on December 11, 2012, 06:45:00 PM
I agree with Tradman Mark, "ease of untieing" is the last thing I'm worried about when tieing in.

I WANT my knot to be hard to untie.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 11, 2012, 06:47:20 PM
Again EYE- agreed.  of course i never fall so...

I used to use the double fishermans for raps-- now there's a knot to untie
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: eyebolter on December 11, 2012, 06:50:19 PM
Again EYE- agreed.  of course i never fall so...

I used to use the double fishermans for raps-- now there's a knot to untie

I used to use the one and a half fisherman for tieing into based on a chouinard catalog in the 70"s.  Almost impossible to untie if you take a hard fall.

Frankly the figure eight is not hard to untie unless you fall multiple times with no rope out and really weld the knot.

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: sneoh on December 11, 2012, 07:33:05 PM
Frankly the figure eight is not hard to untie unless you fall multiple times with no rope out and really weld the knot.
Agreed, especially if you do the Mrs. Eye (or "Figure-9") thing.

I used to use the double fishermans for raps-- now there's a knot to untie
I used to do this too but I switched to double Figure-8 (a little faster for me to tie) or EDK if there is a danger of getting the knot stuck in a crack (read Red Rocks!).  EDK freaks me out a little though.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 11, 2012, 09:20:32 PM
Another advantage of the figure eight is most/all climbers can easily visually confirm if another climbers eight is finished properly. I for one am not sure if I could look at a bowline and know it's finished properly, which would make it more difficult to check my partner if that was their knot of choice.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 11, 2012, 09:48:16 PM
I guess it's me , but.. I only my partners setup  before a rappel.  Of course I don't climb ingyms or sporto
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 11, 2012, 10:08:13 PM
Any comment about the eight follow through with the tail tucked back in? ...

I used to use this alot. Robb Hess's take on it was it makes it harder to inspect the proper knot (and it can be done wrong). I've seen many people do this "figure-9" or "Yosemite finish" incorrectly. If you pass around the load stand the wrong direction it is significantly weaker.

As for the defense of the bowline... "ease of untying" is a bit silly in my book... I've never met a figure 8 I couldn't untie... then again I guess if you are taking repeated whippers on a sport climb it might be an issue... and the fact that most your partners can't competently double check it for you leaves it all on you... which I guess is OK... but I like having someone look at my knot... EVERYTIME!

Bottom Line: Learning to tie a regular 8 without ending up with too much slack is definitely the best option, though other options "exist"...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: ELM on December 12, 2012, 08:31:47 AM
...ditch the bowline.
   
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: M_Sprague on December 12, 2012, 11:33:42 AM
I am choosy with my climbing partners. They are all bright, experienced and able to tell if my knot is tied correctly  ::) , or if they aren't familiar with the double bowline they are conscientious enough to ask about it, which serves the purpose of making me triple check it..

Ward, if you want hard to untie, you should use the  figure 8, hangman's noose finish, topped off with sixteen square knots.  ;D

The figure 8 has some potential problems, if used without the proper backup knot according to what I have read. It can roll if you are clipped into the loop and are using the Yosemite finish.

You people are way too worried about knot style when consistent double checking of everything is the most important aspect of climbing safety. I learned that right off the bat from my mentors and that is emphasized when I do stuff by myself way out in the woods. You have to double check everything methodically so something simple doesn't leave you stranded on the side of the cliff with no help.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 02:26:09 PM
...
The figure 8 has some potential problems, if used without the backup knot, with roll if you are clipped into the loop...

Can you rephrase this? I can’t picture what you are saying...

And I agree, diligence is more important than knot choice... however the 8 is easier to double check for the vast majority of climbers...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: M_Sprague on December 12, 2012, 03:17:53 PM
(http://www.supertopo.com/photos/15/37/275196_14294_L.jpg) Sorry, I meant to write the figure 8 with yosemite finish. I'll correct above. Supposedly it is even worse with a bowline if you didn't use the half fishermans stopper knot. So the stopper knot is indeed important even with the figure 8, since climbers use it in more ways than simply one directional load bearing.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 12, 2012, 03:54:50 PM
WHAT the hell is that ?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: M_Sprague on December 12, 2012, 03:57:24 PM
Petzle graphic, warning not to put your dick in the knot and then cross load the loop?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: sneoh on December 12, 2012, 04:01:30 PM
Hmm.  I have done what is shown in the diagram with a quickdraw at a bolt (when setting in the gym) and never had I have the sense that the knot was going to capsize or roll.  I have my Figure-8 chinched pretty tight whenever I use the Yosemite finish though.
However, if you add an extra wrap around the rope with the free-end before tucking it back into the knot, the chance of capsize is greatly reduced, according to the the AAI.  See pic below.  I believe Tradman had alluded to this before.  I do the extra wrap whenever I can (sometimes a really fat rope discourages this extra wrap).
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: SA on December 12, 2012, 04:15:52 PM
I check my not 2-3 times before I start to climb these days, since I know that I'm getting pretty senile.

Maybe 20 years ago, I was climbing the Prow with John Bouchard. We had already done the 5.9-10 approach slab.

I was seconding John on the 5.11 pitch and before he took off he glanced down at my knot and noticed that I had only done half of it. He was pretty pissed off, knowing that I was wearing one of "his" harnesses.

I think he was more worried about the repercussions to Wild Things than my health.

Fun times and shit happens.

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 12, 2012, 04:28:02 PM
Good one SA.. I still have a WT harness, hardly used and in great shape. I'm sure it's still fine.. Of course the REALLY old swami belt has seen better days
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 04:32:17 PM
(http://www.supertopo.com/photos/15/37/275196_14294_L.jpg) Sorry, I meant to write the figure 8 with yosemite finish. I'll correct above. Supposedly it is even worse with a bowline if you didn't use the half fishermans stopper knot. So the stopper knot is indeed important even with the figure 8, since climbers use it in more ways than simply one directional load bearing.

With a figure 8 -- as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish it's ok to use that loop for load bearing, correct?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: xcrag_corex on December 12, 2012, 04:55:40 PM
Petzle warning not to put your dick in the knot and then cross load the loop?
+1 Mark. I think we can all agree that systematic checking of the knot (regardless of type) and not getting your dick caught in it are good rules to live by. :)
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: M_Sprague on December 12, 2012, 05:00:44 PM
With a figure 8 -- as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish it's ok to use that loop for load bearing, correct?

I am not absolutely sure atm. ..need to do more research. When I ever have to use a figure 8, I throw a half fisherman's stopper knot on anyway out of habit. It is a little more bulky, but easy to see and judge, unlike some of the pass through methods. Even if you somehow mess up the 8, the half fisherman's should hold if there is some tail. There are a bunch of threads on MP, including a current one where I got the picture from, talking about knots. 

I wonder statistically if the apparent greater instances of people messing up their bowlines is connected with people who use double bowlines simply climb more, so have more chances to screw up?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 05:17:31 PM
That "extra" wrap if you want to call it that is critical to the "figure 9/Yosemite finish" being safe... that is what is usually missing when I see people using it... I don't call it "extra" because it's how you are supposed to do it... not wrapping weakens the tie knot, the tests have shown an improperly tied 8 can still be incredibly strong, it's still wrong without the wrap...

(http://www.supertopo.com/photos/15/37/275196_14294_L.jpg) Sorry, I meant to write the figure 8 with yosemite finish. I'll correct above. Supposedly it is even worse with a bowline if you didn't use the half fishermans stopper knot. So the stopper knot is indeed important even with the figure 8, since climbers use it in more ways than simply one directional load bearing.

With a figure 8 -- as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish it's ok to use that loop for load bearing, correct?

I see no reason to, a figure 8 is designed for only two directions of pull, clipping in like the diagram shows would load it awkwardly... there are much better solutions to quickly clipping into an anchor if you are sport climbing...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: M_Sprague on December 12, 2012, 05:22:10 PM
... there are much better solutions to quickly clipping into an anchor if you are sport climbing...

Plus it wouldn't work so well if you untie to thread the rope.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: sneoh on December 12, 2012, 05:25:41 PM
To do exactly what the diagram shows makes little sense to me but the same can happen at a protection bolt (as opposed to bolted anchors).  The way I tie my Figure-8 know, "in direct to a bolt" usually means rope-end biner through both the belay loop and the Figure-8 loop.

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: eyebolter on December 12, 2012, 07:06:31 PM
Yeah, clip the belay loop into the anchor and/ or tie a knot in the rope and clip that in.  Isn't this climbing 101.?

Who the hell clips a draw into the tie in loop? Obviously this is going to be weaker.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 07:22:40 PM
The reason I ask is once in a while when I have a 3 point anchor I use the method Rich Goldstone came up with (or popularized--not 100% sure he developed it) to use the rope to create an equalized anchor. Except instead of tying the butterfly powerpoint I just use the loop formed by my figure eight tie-in knot since it's faster. I got this idea from Rich in the same thread he posted the picture below.

(http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176681-largest_34116.jpg)


Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 07:33:17 PM
Judging by the photo the whole reason for the butterfly loop in that setup is it address the weakness of clipping into the figure 8 loop as you do as a time saver...

If you are looking to save time how about just using a cordelette or a "combination" anchor (i.e. magic x two on a shoulder sling and pre-equalize with a double from there)...

There is no way this set up pictured is "quick"... it's only advantage is it saves 2 slings, or 1 cordelette... things you shouldn't be desperately running out of....
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 07:36:33 PM
It's actually very quick. Quicker than screwing around with a cordellete for sure.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 07:51:55 PM
It's actually very quick. Quicker than screwing around with a cordellete for sure.

LOL

FOUR clove hitches, a figure 8 on a bight, and a butterfly knot...

Yup, that's faster than ONE figure eight on a cordelette... (with a clove to anchor in)...

LOL

I would love to put money on this claim...

To be honest, I use 1 shoulder and 1 double length 90% of the time as it is faster than a cordelette as well... especially for a partner to break down...

This setup also fails if you are not swinging leads... and on long routes leading in blocks is better, so fail fail fail...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 08:04:12 PM
I don't do the butterfly and I don't do the redirection point (just leave a little loop of rope hanging there), so for me it's only 4 cloves. If you get the length of any arm wrong it's super quick to adjust since you can just fiddle with the clove. Also breaking down the cordelette and folding it up neatly takes a little bit of time.

Other benefits: If a piece fails there is zero to minimal extension, you need to tie overhand limiter knots in each arm of a cordellete to approximate this, or else accept some possible extension. It's also much easier to keep safer angles between each arm than it is with a cordellete.

My other main reason for occasionally using this method is my partners hate using cordelletes, so I've basically stopped using them too.

Edit to address leading in blocks and swapping leads: Yes, those are some fair points. I never said this is the best method for every situation. Clearly you are very emotionally attached to your current method being best. My point in posting the pic was to explain why I asked about the safety of the tie-in loop. Rich Goldstone has a pretty strong reputation for safety, and he indicated that he often uses the tie-in loop rather than using the butterfly knot. He didn't indicate what he uses for a tie-in knot though.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 08:36:08 PM
So if you don't do the redirection point you belay the second directly off your waist? Not judging here... just trying to get a full understanding of advantages/disadvantages... I hate directly belaying 2nd's off my harness...

I completely agree about the breaking down a cordelette being a major time suck which is why my cordelette sits on the back of my harness 95% of the season without being used... as I said, the "combination" method seems to be super fast for what I do... YMMV

As for extension, not an issue with the combination method either... There isn't with the pre-equalized cordelette method so "you need to tie overhand limiter knots in each arm of a cordellete to approximate this" confuses me... no you don't... one figure eight after pre-tension eliminates extension...

Thanks for the pic, I didn't mean to seem like I was totally attacking the setup, just wanted to point out the obvious reason why he had added that butterfly loop... I don't know who Rick Goldstone is, but I'm glad he has a solid reputation. That rig is unnecessarily complicated, as you've admitted you've eliminated 2 key components from the photo (the butterflty and re-direct)...

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 09:15:56 PM
Just typed a long reply and accidentally hit some keyboard combo that evidently equals the back button.  :P

Anyway yes, I almost always belay directly from the harness. None of my partners fall on anything I lead anyway, but I could imagine for a guide it would be annoying having people hanging off your waist all day while you shout down, "use your feet ohh ya that's it you're a rock star you got it" all day long.


Quote
...one figure eight after pre-tension eliminates extension...

True--I didn't express my thoughts on that completely. Sometimes when you tie the  figure eight powerpoint and move into belay position you realize you got it wrong. So you can either redo it or accept a slightly unequalized leg. This was part of my thoughts about time since with Goldstone's method it's very quick to adjust the clove.

The other thing you can do is just use two sliding x's instead of the figure eight powerpoint. But then you have the problem of either accepting possible extension or tying those limiter knots.

Also if you use cordalettes a lot you get better at getting your powerpoint knot correct the first time. I know I used to struggle with that damn thing all the time though before I gave up cordalettes.

Goldstone is a pretty well known Gunks guy and a math professor. He's done some work with theory regarding anchor safety and I believe some actually testing as well. I don't know him but have read some of his stuff online here and there. I believe his ideas are sound and well regarded by the climbing community.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 12, 2012, 09:49:23 PM
i must admit that i don't know what is going on here.. i tie in with a regular figure 8 and use 8's and clove hitches at belays   ??? ???
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 10:03:15 PM
Anyway yes, I almost always belay directly from the harness. None of my partners fall on anything I lead anyway, but I could imagine for a guide it would be annoying having people hanging off your waist all day while you shout down, "use your feet ohh ya that's it you're a rock star you got it" all day long.

While my clients rarely fall I just find belaying off the anchor to be less work (and easier rope management)... Trango Cinch year round, if the ropes are icy I use my ATC Guide...

Sometimes when you tie the  figure eight powerpoint and move into belay position you realize you got it wrong. So you can either redo it or accept a slightly unequalized leg...

This should take about 1 hour to master... DON't TIGHTEN IT until you move into belay position... problem fixed... plus... "slightly unequalized" rigs shouldn't matter if you know how to place solid gear... just sayin' there is way to much emphasis in perfect equalization when the focus should be SOLID placements and LIMITED extension...

Goldstone is a pretty well known Gunks guy and a math professor. He's done some work with theory regarding anchor safety and I believe some actually testing as well. I don't know him but have read some of his stuff online here and there. I believe his ideas are sound and well regarded by the climbing community.

Math Professor = too much info for 95% of the climbing community...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 10:10:19 PM
i must admit that i don't know what is going on here.. i tie in with a regular figure 8 and use 8's and clove hitches at belays   ??? ???

Sounds too simple and not nearly convoluted enough... You know what that means...

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUylSERObErbn1vDf1GrOVE_uttUd-ULGiPZhZMLDlwXesh7LNj-9bwbsm)



Anyway, this link from American Alpine Institute seems to suggest using the tie-in loop is ok as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish.

http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2010/04/figure-eight-follow-through.html

Quote
After learning about this, many people ask why one might use the inside of the knot as a belay loop. In alpine climbing, a small percentage of climbers still use harnesses without belay loops. In technical terrain it's always better to have a belay loop, so those without one often simply use the inside of their knot. If this is something that you wish to do, it might be better to avoid all types of Yosemite tucks or finishes. Even better, if you're going to be on technical terrain, you should use a harness with a belay loop.


Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 10:15:21 PM
Anyway, this link from American Alpine Institute seems to suggest using the tie-in loop is ok as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish.

And also states it ONLY makes sense when using a harness without a belay loop... I agree... if you don't have a belay loop then you can do this... with a belay loop it makes NO sense to use it... but if you do, make sure you don't do the "unfinished" Yosemite finish....
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 10:21:29 PM
Anyway, this link from American Alpine Institute seems to suggest using the tie-in loop is ok as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish.

And also states it ONLY makes sense when using a harness without a belay loop... I agree... if you don't have a belay loop then you can do this... with a belay loop it makes NO sense to use it... but if you do, make sure you don't do the "unfinished" Yosemite finish....

Right, but if it wasn't safe they would say never ever use it or you're going to die. Every reference I've been able to find suggests it's safe to use provided you use a figure eight without the Yosemite finish.

For the most part, everyone is going to suggest just using a belay loop for belaying, and I would agree. But as mentioned above sometimes I want to use that loop for the anchor set-up so I can avoid using that butterfly knot. It's either safe or it's not. No reason not to use it unless it's not safe right?

Edit: maybe I can donate a few new bolts or something to tradman in exchange for some pull testing with his truck on the tie-in knot loop.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 10:45:16 PM
But as mentioned above sometimes I want to use that loop for the anchor set-up so I can avoid using that butterfly knot. It's either safe or it's not. No reason not to use it unless it's not safe right?

For that purpose... safe enough... I can't see it getting a high enough load to fail...

It's all the other reasons I've listed to not use it IMO... but you are sold on Mr. Goldstone's setup (sans butterfly), so I couldn't convince you it's a huge waste of time/effort for little gain no matter what...

1 shoulder sling, 1 double length... faster, simpler, allows swinging leads, belay escapes, hauling, self-rescue, belaying off the anchor, blah blah blah... that Goldstone set up (sans butterfly), offers none of that...

YAY my 3000th post!   Oh God... this is my 3000th post....
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 11:03:52 PM
Yes, all I care to determine is that it's safe to use the inside of the loop of a rewoven figure eight without the extra tuck. (Especially since I already got a dirty look from a climbing partner and I told him it was safe--so I really want to make sure I didn't misunderstand something that I read.) The rest of the stuff is like, just your opinion man!  :)

This method, like every other method out there, has its strengths and weaknesses. It's up to everybody to choose how they want to do things. I don't carry double slings or cordalettes anymore so this method is nice to know once in a while. And it really is quick you would be surprised. And while it would be a pain to haul using this method, belay escape would really be no more complicated for me than if I was tied into a powerpoint made from slings or a cordalette. (Since I'm belaying from my waist belay escape is essentially the same.)

Edit: actually skipping the butterfly knot makes belay escape pretty complicated while retaining the butterfly knot would keep it the same as if I was tied to a powerpoint made of slings.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 12, 2012, 11:15:14 PM
This method, like every other method out there, has its strengths and weaknesses. It's up to everybody to choose how they want to do things. I don't carry double slings or cordalettes anymore so this method is nice to know once in a while.

Totally agree, in climbing there are many "good enough" ways, and a few "great ways" of doing things...

Out of curiosity, you carry zero double lengths and not even 1 cordelette? This seems limiting to me as one of my 2 nylon doubles is my multi-pitch rappel sling... and a cord can be cut up for v-threads, used for Ascension, etc... just many uses for a cord... I don't like cords for anchors but love them for everything else... what do you use?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: sneoh on December 12, 2012, 11:27:07 PM
I've got an idea - let's ask John Long!! This thread is about him, isn't it? :):)
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 12, 2012, 11:32:38 PM
Out of curiosity, you carry zero double lengths and not even 1 cordelette? This seems limiting to me as one of my 2 nylon doubles is my multi-pitch rappel sling... and a cord can be cut up for v-threads, used for Ascension, etc... just many uses for a cord... I don't like cords for anchors but love them for everything else... what do you use?


I use all shoulder length slings. Most of them are sewn but two are tied so I can sacrifice them backing up sketch rappel anchors and such. I just use one of the shoulder length slings to clip into the anchor when untying for rappel, and another one to extend my rappel device. Don't you find a double sling too long for your rappel sling? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by multi-pitch rappel sling.)

On my harness I also keep a tied triple sling, a 4 foot rescue loop, and a 2 foot rescue loop. This stuff always stays put for emergency use except the 2 footer doubles as my rappel backup cord.   
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 13, 2012, 12:05:50 AM
Out of curiosity, you carry zero double lengths and not even 1 cordelette? This seems limiting to me as one of my 2 nylon doubles is my multi-pitch rappel sling... and a cord can be cut up for v-threads, used for Ascension, etc... just many uses for a cord... I don't like cords for anchors but love them for everything else... what do you use?
Don't you find a double sling too long for your rappel sling? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by multi-pitch rappel sling.)

It is the perfect length, when I add a overhand mid-sling, to give me a long enough tether for clipping in mid-station, and a short enough "loop" to run my rappel device off of... n actuality the flat overhand is tied a little closer than half-way, bt definitely far enough up the sling to prevent any back-up friction hitch from reaching the rappel device...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 12:19:56 AM
Just curious:  am I the only climber here who has never, ever extended a rap device, used a sliding back-up knot, worn belay gloves, carried a knife, or used a cordelette?  I have not done any of these in 24 years of climbing.

I know several climbers that have never done any of those and at least one posts here, so no you're not.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 12:23:00 AM
It is the perfect length, when I add a overhand mid-sling, to give me a long enough tether for clipping in mid-station, and a short enough "loop" to run my rappel device off of... n actuality the flat overhand is tied a little closer than half-way, bt definitely far enough up the sling to prevent any back-up friction hitch from reaching the rappel device...


Hmmm, never thought of that.  :P

Just to be sure I understand... So you just girth hitch the double sling and then tie an overhand a little less than halfway, you clip into the anchor at the far end and your rappel biner clips into the short loop formed by the overhand? That overhand cannot slip when weighted?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 13, 2012, 12:31:26 AM
It is the perfect length, when I add a overhand mid-sling, to give me a long enough tether for clipping in mid-station, and a short enough "loop" to run my rappel device off of... n actuality the flat overhand is tied a little closer than half-way, bt definitely far enough up the sling to prevent any back-up friction hitch from reaching the rappel device...


Hmmm, never thought of that.  :P

Just to be sure I understand... So you just girth hitch the double sling and then tie an overhand a little less than halfway, you clip into the anchor at the far end and your rappel biner clips into the short loop formed by the overhand? That overhand cannot slip when weighted?

Exacto-mundo... works great everywhere... no way body weight+ will roll that overhand (takes 700lbs+) and eliminates using a silly "PAS". and is MONEY when rapping steep MP...

To add to the security, this set up allows you to rap into a completely hanging stance, transfer weight to the anchor, and re-establish after pulling the rope with minimal effort... nothing beats it...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 12:40:07 AM
I'm going to have to try that.

I found some of the Goldstone posts where he talks about using the tie-in loop and why he prefers using it over the belay loop in some cases. He linked to an article which I will link to below. He also said this is very common in the UK and it's very strong but it's unusual to see people doing it in the states.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1129

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 13, 2012, 06:57:26 AM
I have known for at least the last decade that crosloading your tie in loop is not good. No cordelette. one doubble length runner for belays. add a shoulder length as needed. Donnini has the fastest belay. Clove hitch a single blue camalot and call it good.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: SA on December 13, 2012, 08:47:40 AM
"Donnini has the fastest belay. Clove hitch a single blue camalot and call it good."

Yes, Donini is very fast, but sometimes, in my opinion, he puts too much faith in a single cam.

Several years ago,  we had to retreat from a climb in the Wind Rivers due to a storm coming in. We were leaving most of the rack  at our high point, intending to return. He set up the anchor, and planned to rap off ONE cam. I popped 2 more in against his objections.

I'll make an attempt to post a picture of the 12 pitch route we were on, plus a picture of Jim.

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 08:52:10 AM
I have known for at least the last decade that crosloading your tie in loop is not good.

Citation?

Every seemingly legit source I've been able to find says it's fine EXCEPT if you use one of those finishes that tucks the tail back into the knot. I use a figure eight with a single fishermans backup which basically makes it bomber.

Edit: out of habit I call my backup knot a "stopper" but I guess it's technically a single fishermans.



 
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 08:56:46 AM
Several years ago,  we had to retreat from a climb in the Wind Rivers due to a storm coming in. We were leaving most of the rack  at our high point, intending to return. He set up the anchor, and planned to rap off ONE cam. I popped 2 more in against his objections.

Looks nice!

Why would he object to beefing up the rappel anchor if you were leaving most of the rack at the anchor anyway?  ???

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 13, 2012, 08:57:09 AM
... He set up the anchor, and planned to rap off ONE cam. I popped 2 more in against his objections...

"OK, I'll rap first on the 3 pieces, you can clean what you like after I am on the next anchor"
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: old_school on December 13, 2012, 09:20:24 AM
I'll make an attempt to post a picture of the 12 pitch route we were on, plus a picture of Jim.

OMFG Steve!!! This looks incredible!! What route is this that you posted? Is this one of yours? I have to get out there!! :o
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: old_school on December 13, 2012, 09:32:14 AM
JBrochu brings up and interesting point with his system there. The Brit's have used that system quite a bit and allows an easy escape of the belay. Here is an interesting video of how it is used. I have played around with it and find that it is pretty cool given its application. Would I use this regularly? No. But that being said, I still see the merit in a system like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B1RIQy1mog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B1RIQy1mog)
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: SA on December 13, 2012, 10:12:26 AM
old school,

Yes, it is. I did it with John Bouchard in the early 70's.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 13, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
Speaking of minimalists......

I guess JB made an impact, I still carry little gear
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: old_school on December 13, 2012, 10:26:20 AM
old school,

Yes, it is. I did it with John Bouchard in the early 70's.

I have to get out there soon! Itching for some long alpine trad climbing!
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 13, 2012, 06:13:41 PM
About crossloading the belay loop.. about the time that the EKD was becomming the rage for rappeling someone got the chop useing an overhand fig eight as a rap knott. the story went they were freaked out about the EKD so why not use  a fig 8 instead. Turns out the fig eight rolls real easy in that configuration and one of them got chopped. I took that info and deducted that clipping directly into your tie in loop could load the fig 8 in the same or simeler direction that caused the aformentioned accident. My own decision based on stories I read on the internet.. YMMV
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 13, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
I remember that
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: strandman on December 13, 2012, 06:20:43 PM
we can discuss this shit all day.. and more . Bouchard was right in "81 and still is  the less the better.

I have never owned a " double " sling , let alone triple  At most I would carry, maybe 4 24" slings.. ever

Maybe if your guiding

There's to much shit in climbing... Cordalettes and such.. use your fucking rope, it's kinda pricey to have to buy more shit ?

FUCK i  thought the AMC was making a comeback   ;)Fucking  mule knot and whatever else they fucking spewed out.. tie off the leader and shit.   
If you gotta tie off the leader, he;s kinda fucked

I did mail Largo last night and asked of he needed any advice  >:(
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: sneoh on December 13, 2012, 07:08:23 PM
I read on the R&I website today of an update Largo gave; he said he got distracted and never finished his knot. And he added that it would not have mattered if it were a Figure-8 or bowline.  I have to agree.  Must have been quite the distraction since both he and his partner missed the double checking part before he climbed.  :(
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 07:12:15 PM
About crossloading the belay loop.. about the time that the EKD was becomming the rage for rappeling someone got the chop useing an overhand fig eight as a rap knott. the story went they were freaked out about the EKD so why not use  a fig 8 instead. Turns out the fig eight rolls real easy in that configuration and one of them got chopped. I took that info and deducted that clipping directly into your tie in loop could load the fig 8 in the same or simeler direction that caused the aformentioned accident. My own decision based on stories I read on the internet.. YMMV

There is no doubt the flat figure eight is dangerous for joining rappel ropes as it rolls at pretty low loads. However, the figure eight follow through and flat figure eight are not the same thing, so it doesn't make much sense to me to make deductions on one based on the other. My own decision based on logic.



 
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 13, 2012, 07:28:15 PM
Regardless of the circumstances if you look at the pure math/odds it is quite telling.
 Every accident has a story and a list of excuses. Those are varriabls that can not be controled. What can be controled is to simply look at all accidents that result from a failure of the tie in knot. Does not matter what the story behind the failure is just look at the numbers. Despite the fact that the vast majoriety of climbers use the  fig eight the majoriety of tie in knott failures happen with the bowline..  Vegas odds and the house always wins :-X
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 13, 2012, 07:34:47 PM
JB if you cross load the tie in loop in two directions at the same time you have replicated the exact same direction of load on the fig eight as would be experienced in an overhand 8 rappel situation in effect turning it into the same knott for that dirrection of pull?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: tradmanclimbz on December 13, 2012, 08:19:07 PM
Just thought about this a bit more and the only difference i see is that you have one less tail. You stil have one tail that could concievably pull through if the knott rolled?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 08:39:56 PM
After that rappel accident somebody did some testing and the load it rolls at was fairly low. Don't take this as fact because I'm going off of memory but it was something like 170 kg. Again, going off memory only the inside loop of a figure eight follow through (without the tuck) doesn't roll until something like 750 kg, and that's without a backup knot. With a backup knot it probably can't roll at all, practically speaking.

So I think they have to be different.

And I swear I'm not really into all this numbers stuff. I just want to know enough to know the methods I'm using are safe--I don't particularly care about exact numbers and mechanism of failure and whatnot. When Mark posted that picture with the skull and crossbones for loading the figure eight follow through with a tuck I just wanted to make sure I hadn't misunderstood what I learned about using that loop for an eight with a backup knot. Then it kind of snowballed into geeksville.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 13, 2012, 08:46:24 PM
However, the figure eight follow through and flat figure eight are not the same thing, so it doesn't make much sense to me to make deductions on one based on the other.

Some confusion here as I feel the term "flat figure eight" is misused, or at-least mis-understood. Lets break the variations down:

1) Figure Eight Follow Though (or retraced 8)- standard tie in knot, this is the knot we are concerned about loading from within the loop formed

2) For lack of a better name, the Figure 8 EDK- this is the knot that proved fatal when used in place of a EDK, and is tied just like the EDK but by adding one more twist...

3) In-Line Figure 8- This is a very strong but hard to untie knot that looks just like the other 8's, but is vastly different. To join two ends you would first make the "8" in one end, then re-trace the 8 from the opposite end. The big difference is you don't just grab the rope ends and wrap around EDK style. This knot would actually block any possible rolling, but is not feasible as a tie in as it REQUIRES both ends of the rope to tie... It is this knot that I have also heard called the "Flat Figure 8" and should not be in this discussion as it is impossible to employ it as a tie-in...

So, JBrochu, it is absolutely prudent to make deductions from what Tradmanclimbz reported, the two knots in question where #1 and #2 above. While created differently, they are structurally the exact same when loaded within the loop, but in the case of the rappel error the "loop" doesn't exist, the knot structure however is identical, and not intended for a strong load (even failed under body weight rappelling).

That being said, if it rolls in your described scenario a backup knot would prevent failure... You know it's this weakness loading an 8 in this manner that is why we use butterfly's on a bight or direction 8's in glacier travel... they don't have that weakness...
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 08:58:02 PM
So, JBrochu, it is absolutely prudent to make deductions from what Tradmanclimbz reported, the two knots in question where #1 and #2 above. While created differently, they are structurally the exact same when loaded within the loop, but in the case of the rappel error the "loop" doesn't exist, the knot structure however is identical, and not intended for a strong load (even failed under body weight rappelling).

Ok, but then do you know why they roll at vastly different loads? Not counting the backup knot--from what I've read they roll at vastly different loads even without the backup. They said the backup essentially makes it bombproof, but even without the backup it's very strong.

 

Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 13, 2012, 09:04:29 PM
Ok, but then do you know why they roll at vastly different loads?...

Who says? Source?
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 13, 2012, 09:15:26 PM
Ok, but then do you know why they roll at vastly different loads?...

Who says? Source?


I've got to go digging again for where I found the 750 kg figure. But I found Goldstone's post explaining why the inner loop is very strong and why the EDK method is not...

Quote
Clipping into the rope loop does not load it perpendicular to the anchor strand when belaying the second off the harness or when catching a factor-2 leader fall.

When belaying the leader, it is possible to get such loading, instantaneously. (As far as I know, the figure-8 has never been tested for rolling under off-axis instantaneous impacts.)

In leader falls where the anchor actually comes into play, the loading of the anchor strand means the situation is completely different from the EDK loading tests, in which neither of the ends is under any tension. Tension in the anchor strand will inhibit rolling for the same reason an extra stopper knot does for the EDK; it prevents rope from feeding into the knot, a prerequisite for rolling behavior.

That leaves only low instantaneous loads that are not enough to lift the belayer onto the anchor. The BMC article does suggest a stopper knot to back up the figure-8. Many climbers do this anyway, and such a knot would eliminate even the remote possibility of the figure-8 knot rolling.

With my half ropes, I use bowlines with "Yosemite finish" and double overhand backup after that, then I clip both loops, so no worries for me.

Probably the best tie-in knot of all is the rethreaded bowline on a bight, which puts two loops in the harness tie-in points. Using such a knot and clipping those rope loops would be beyond bomber.

But getting back to the figure-8, tie a backup knot as you probably should anyway and clip the rope loop with no conceivable worries.

Here is a link to the entire thread. I cannot figure out how to link just to the post the quote came from and there is no assigned post number for me to reference.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2574312


edit: from the same thread...

Quote
Moyer's tests suggest that a well-tied figure-8 can roll at 750 lbf, which would mean the rope loop would need a rather hefty 1500 lbf for rolling to occur. At that level, there is no doubt that the belayer is going to be yanked hard against the anchor, in which case tension on the anchor strand will, I think, make rolling impossible. This is, of course, doubly hypothetical in the presence of a back-up knot on the figure-8.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 13, 2012, 10:58:48 PM
Ok, my head is spinning a bit, but answer this... If you skip the butterfly in the setup you posted a pic of why not just use the belay loop for what u are describing??? The doesn't seem to be any reason to use the tie in loop, unless you climb often on harnesses with out belay loop....
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: JBro on December 14, 2012, 09:11:35 AM
Actually just switched a few weeks ago to my first harness ever with a belay loop--so I hadn't considered that.
Title: Re: John Long decks at gym
Post by: DLottmann on December 14, 2012, 09:22:37 AM
Actually just switched a few weeks ago to my first harness ever with a belay loop--so I hadn't considered that.

LOL all this theory for naught... just use the belay loop :)